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Romans 11 and the real Replacement Theology
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No Pre-TB
Well-Known Member
They went out from us but they weren’t of us. Have a good day.
Romans 9:3-4
For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Who are Israelites;...
Romans 10:1
Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
And then the context of these chapters is all about Israel and there's got to be a reason why you guys can't understand third grade school context.
The contradiction is in your understanding. The (ekklēsía) of the New Covenant is not the (ekklēsía) of the Old.
I have no idea what you are referring to. The Bible in the Old Testament is written about Israel and must be understood in that light. The New Testament is written concerning what the Christians have. It's not rocket science and should not be that hard to understand. You can't mix the whole Bible together using what God said concerns one group and apply it to another group where God did not say that about that second group.
Oh good point. Let's trash all teachings from men of God. Pastors, Teachers, Prophets and all Scholars who study the Scriptures.
It's third grade grammar to understand what is written about Israel is to be understood referring to the things of Israel. What is written about Christians needs to be understood in reference to Christians. It's not rocket science.
So when there's disagreement, whom/what do we believe?
1. Bullinger
2. Seventeen centuries of true Christian orthodoxy
Paul writes to the Romans, "Bothers, my desire for Israel is that THEY.." . If he was talkng to his own kinsmen he would be using the word YOU: "Brothers my desire for YOU is that YOU might be saved.It's so obvious by the context and by Paul's grammar throughout that he's talking to the church at Rome about those genetic descendants of Jacob who had been broken off from God's elect. If you failed third grade school English then only will you claim something so patently obviously false.
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The Bible is talking to God's elect a.k.a Israel and about God's elect a.k.a Israel all the way through the book, since the first 5 books were written, right up to the closing verse in the Revelation.
Christ is not divided just because your mind is divided.
There is only one elect of God, a.k.a Israel. Jews and Gentiles in Christ. Abraham's descendants were not all Jews. They were only one of the 12 tribes of Israel, descended from only one of Israel's 12 sons. There were always Gentiles among Israel. You only think the way you do because you think Christ is divided.
Christ is not divided just because your mind is divided.
There is only one elect of God, a.k.a Israel. Jews and Gentiles in Christ. Abraham's descendants were not all Jews. They were only one of the 12 tribes of Israel, descended from only one of Israel's 12 sons. There were always Gentiles among Israel. You only think the way you do because you think Christ is divided.
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Most of them, if not all of them, teach a mixture of truth and error (because their fallible human minds cause them to falsely interpret part of scripture just like you do), so instead of swallowing the fish and spitting out the bones, you've made it obvious that you've swallowed the bones and spat out the fish. So it's best for you go to God asking Him for understanding of His Word, and burn Bullinger's books. Because you've placed your trust in man, and much of what you've learned from Bullinger and come to believe is falsehood.
There is no contradiction except in your own divided mind that seeks to have Christ divided. The ekklesia of the New Testament together make up God's house. The ekklesia of the Old Testament had to gather together 3 times a year at God's house in Jerusalem. And they weren't even allowed in it (in the holy place and most holy place - the actual tabernacle/house of God). Only the priests were.
You had just said that you can't add ethnicity to "American". Now you imply "American" is an ethnicity - (unless you meant "Just like the name 'American' is not an ethnicity, neither is the name 'Christian""). In which case you are correct.
Jews are still naturally born into Israel.
What many of us fail to understand is that ever since God called Abraham and promised to be God to Abraham and his seed forever, the entire Bible is talking about God's elect nation,
and its ethnicity never mattered.
Abraham was a Gentile until he was called, and even after he was called, he was not a Jew. He was promised that he would become the father of many Gentile nations. It was God's first promise to Abraham which He repeated three times.
Abraham's son Isaac was not a Jew. Abraham's grandson Jacob, whom God renamed Israel, was not a Jew. Jews are the descendants of one of Jacob (Israel's) 12 sons.
Eleven of Israel's sons were not Jews, and all 12 sons and the tribes who descended from them were part of God's elect nation -
- until circa 725 B.C, when 10 of the tribes (except those of the Levites who were priests in Jerusalem, the Benjamites, and the Jews),
were broken off from God's elect nation, exiled from the land, and have never returned.
Within a couple of centuries all those who had been broken off from God's elect and exiled were not even called Israel anymore, because they had all become amalgamated with the Gentiles in the nations.
In circa 30 A.D all the rest of Israel - Levites, Jews, and Benjamites - who rejected Christ, who is THE promised seed of Abraham - were broken off from God's elect nation also,
but they did not believe (and still do not believe) that they had been broken off from God's elect nation, and they did not become amalgamated with the Gentiles in the nations, so they have always remained able to trace their genetic ancestry back to Jacob/Israel.
- - So they have continued to call themselves Israel AND be called Israel, just as did Paul.
This is the reason why those Jews, Benjamites and Levites who have remained broken off from God's elect nation are still called Israel, to this day.
The Jews are still natural branches of Israel. BUT NO ONE WAS EVER NATURALLY BORN PART OF GOD'S ELECT. It's impossible, because Abraham was elected because of his faith (belief in) God and in His Word - before he was even circumcised.
The name "Jew" is still synonymous with the name "Israel" purely because of ancestry, which creates a lot of confusion. There is only ONE elect of God, and no one has to be born into Jacob/Israel in order to be part of God's elect, but all need to be born anew by the Spirit of God, being baptized into Christ by the same Spirit.What many of us fail to understand is that ever since God called Abraham and promised to be God to Abraham and his seed forever, the entire Bible is talking about God's elect nation,
and its ethnicity never mattered.
Abraham was a Gentile until he was called, and even after he was called, he was not a Jew. He was promised that he would become the father of many Gentile nations. It was God's first promise to Abraham which He repeated three times.
Abraham's son Isaac was not a Jew. Abraham's grandson Jacob, whom God renamed Israel, was not a Jew. Jews are the descendants of one of Jacob (Israel's) 12 sons.
Eleven of Israel's sons were not Jews, and all 12 sons and the tribes who descended from them were part of God's elect nation -
- until circa 725 B.C, when 10 of the tribes (except those of the Levites who were priests in Jerusalem, the Benjamites, and the Jews),
were broken off from God's elect nation, exiled from the land, and have never returned.
Within a couple of centuries all those who had been broken off from God's elect and exiled were not even called Israel anymore, because they had all become amalgamated with the Gentiles in the nations.
In circa 30 A.D all the rest of Israel - Levites, Jews, and Benjamites - who rejected Christ, who is THE promised seed of Abraham - were broken off from God's elect nation also,
but they did not believe (and still do not believe) that they had been broken off from God's elect nation, and they did not become amalgamated with the Gentiles in the nations, so they have always remained able to trace their genetic ancestry back to Jacob/Israel.
- - So they have continued to call themselves Israel AND be called Israel, just as did Paul.
This is the reason why those Jews, Benjamites and Levites who have remained broken off from God's elect nation are still called Israel, to this day.
The Jews are still natural branches of Israel. BUT NO ONE WAS EVER NATURALLY BORN PART OF GOD'S ELECT. It's impossible, because Abraham was elected because of his faith (belief in) God and in His Word - before he was even circumcised.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
"And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed."
God created the Garden after the 7th Day of rest. That would mean, according to you, Adam was not created on the 6th day, but also created after the 7th Day of rest.
Adam was formed on the 6th day, and placed into the Garden at a later point in time. He had no choice like Abraham. But still seperated from others, as God later realized Adam was lonely and all by Himself.
"And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it."
"And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him."
God did not place 2 sons of God into the Garden. God only placed 1. Adam was the first steward of God's plan on earth. The one singled out as the primary care giver of the Garden. Do you even think the Garden is literal or only figurative of obedience to God?
Adam was given the responsibility of the church just as much as Abraham was called out and given the responsibility of the church. In different ways and different times, but still called out.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Then all will go to heaven regardless of their belief, because you state they are all naturally born into Christ, because like "Americans" Christ is not an ethnicity.
The only problem is that under the OT Covenant with Jacob, Israel was an ethnicity. The only ethnicity naturally born into Christ.
Today Christianity has been turned into a religion. Most having nothing to do with Christ, even more so than all those of Israel who are no longer Israel. Of course the term for Israel's religion today is Judaism. Paul was speaking more to that religion yet using the term Israel instead of Judaism. Back then they were called Judaizers. 10 of the 12 tribes had already been lost centuries prior in 720BC. The church is more splintered today than Israel was.
There are no natural branches today. If there are, then you cannot say Israel is being spiritually in Christ. That would make Israel still an ethnicity seperate from Christ. That is defining two Israels like those who have replaced the church with Israel. Since all have to be grafted in, why would some be born already naturally in Christ? At what age do these humans get cut off from Christ, so they are grafted back in?
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
All are born as elect. Being born of Israel was being born naturally into Christ.
The elect is the broadest group as God was not willing that any should perish, but all come to repentance. The Cross covered all of Adam's offspring. Once removed from the Lamb's book of life, one is no longer one of the elect.
Being in Christ is now the second birth. Those in Christ is the smallest group of humanity.
Israel is still the smallest nation of all those Gentile nations you have stated coming out of Abraham. And not even all of Israel make it. Only a remnant. The rest were cut off. Some given an opportunity to return. Most have not.
So we do not agree. The doctrine you follow is the Catholic doctrine. They were the first to teach the whole Bible was written to everyone and that Jesus is God.
There is not a verse anywhere in the Epistles that says "Jews and Gentiles in Christ" and so I must believe you teach what cannot be found in the Scriptures.
I could see how Paul could say "they and not you" since he no longer saw himself as a Jew, but as a Christian.
It's so obvious by the context and by Paul's grammar throughout that he's talking to the church at Rome about those genetic descendants of Jacob who had been broken off from God's elect. If you failed third grade school English then only will you claim something so patently obviously false.
You guys are Catholic. Is that what I'm dealing with? All your thoughts are Catholic. The first seventeen centuries were Catholic. Here let's run a test. How many of these Catholic doctrines do you believe...
1.) God is in control of everything that happens.
2.) The four gospels are written to Christians.
3.) Water baptism is relevant.
4.) We still have a sin nature.
5.) Dead people are alive.
6.) There's a trinity.
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