Romans 11 and the real Replacement Theology

[Zao is life]

The word "and" is not the word "as".

The word "and" points to two different groups. The church and the Israel of God.

Tim why don't you ever first read the passage and think about what its author was talking about before you post?

Paul is talking about Gentile circumcision and about two groups of people:

1. Those Jews who today we commonly refer to as "Judaizers", who were insisting that all Gentiles in Christ must be circumcised; and

2. Those Jews (the circumcision) who did not follow the rule of the Judaizers, but followed Paul's statement regarding circumcision, who together with the Gentiles in Christ Paul called "The Israel of God".

11 See in what large letters I write to you with my hand.
12 As many as desire to look well in the flesh, these compel you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.
13 For they themselves, having been circumcised, do not even keep the Law, but they desire you to be circumcised so that they may boast in your flesh.
14 But may it never be for me to boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified to me, and I to the world.
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision has any strength, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them and upon the Israel of God.
17 For the rest, let no one give troubles to me, for I bear in my body the brands of the Lord Jesus.
18 Brothers, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen.​

 

[David in NJ]

I don't think it's gonna go well for the Christian Identity thieves on Judgment Day trying to steal Israel's identity.

The Israel of God is the Body of Christ.

There are two Jerusalems and two Israels.

One Born from Above by the Spirit of God
AND
one from below who are in bondage to sin.

JESUS said: "And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

Israel of the flesh = "But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”
That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God"

Israel of the Spirit = "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."

 

[Zao is life]

Romans 9-11 should be read as a single unit. But for the thread at hand, I want to focus on these verses which summarize Paul's analysis of the problem:

28 In relation to the gospel they are enemies on your account, but in relation to God’s choice they are beloved on account of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. (Romans 11:28-29)​

​

so...

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18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. (Romans 11:18)​

They are beloved for the sake of the fathers - Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. God's promise and God's election.

This does not mean either

(a). that those who reject the seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:16) through unbelief are not broken off from the Abrahamic Covenant; or

(b) that they remain broken off if they come to faith in Christ.

Whoever is arrogant against the Jews who remain broken off does not understand the heart of God, and is puffed up, forgetting that he too was a sinner who was saved only by grace. If Paul lamented the breaking off of His kinsmen (Romans 9:1-5) then it means so does Jesus.

Joseph longed for his kinsmen while in Egypt - to such an extent that when he finally was reconciled to them, the whole house of Pharaoh heard his loud sobs. Joseph is a type of Jesus. If there IS any scripture that speaks about reconciliation between Judah and Jesus (a Jew by birth and the Son of David, King of the Jews), that would be it. NOT Romans 11.

I'm not saying that Joseph's reconciliation with Israel IS a biblical type of what is to come - I'm saying it might be. They all came to live with Joseph in the land of Goshen after the reconciliation, and they had a prolonged period of peace and prosperity until Gog of Magog a Pharaoh arose who had not known Joseph.

But they did not recognize Joseph until he told them who he was. And he had been brought out from the dungeon and exalted to the highest place in all Egypt, Pharaoh's own throne being the only exception. All the Egyptians bowed the knee to him. Eventually so too did all Israelites.

Romans 11 is not the place to look for any future reconciliation of Jesus with the Jews. The estrangement of Joseph from Israel while he was still estranged from them has its parallel in Romans 11 - except that in the New Covenant there is, and always has been, a remnant of Jews who are saved - the Olive tree did not die when branches were broken off. The root of the Olive tree is God's election of Abraham and his seed, and God's covenant promises to Abraham and his seed. That's Israel.

Manasseh and Ephraim were Gentiles, had a Gentile mother, and were born in Egypt - yet they were the seed of Israel, through Joseph.

Jacob/Israel, when on his deathbed, told Joseph that the seed of Ephraim would become the fullness of the Gentiles (m'lo goyim in the Hebrew, translated into all English Bibles as "a multitude of nations").

Ephraim was the dominant tribe in the Northern kingdom, which in prophecy is collectively called Ephraim, or the house of Israel, or Israel, interchangeably. Exiled circa 725 B.C, the vast majority of them became scattered among the nations, where their descendants have been intermarrying with Gentiles to this day - to such an extent that they are untraceable today, because even if someone could prove that he is genetically descended from Israel, his ancestry would still be mixed.

Hosea1:10 and Romans 9:24-26 include Gentile believers in Christ in the promise of "Ephraim's" restoration where Ephraim is called "sons of the living God" instead of where it was said to them "You are not my people".

Circa 725 B.C they ceased to exist as a nation (one nation) before God (Isaiah 7:8; Hosea 1:9-11).

Gentiles who believe in Jesus are grafted into Israel and in Christ there is NEITHER Jew NOR Gentile.

The future is in God's hands. Most of us hope for the salvation of the Jews, and like the angels who rejoice over one sinner being saved, most Christians rejoice over one Jew turning to faith in Christ, each and every time it happens. We rejoice over any Gentile coming to faith in Christ too, but for some reason we rejoice even more if the person is Jewish (which is wrong).

But that does not mean we should be exalting one group of unbelievers over all others just because one group is Jewish. Nor should we exalt one Christian above another because of his or her ethnic identity.​

 

[David in NJ]

They are beloved for the sake of the fathers - Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. God's promise and God's election.

Does not mean either that those who reject the seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:16) through unbelief are not broken off from the Abrahamic Covenant, or that they remain broken off if they come to faith in Christ.

Whoever is arrogant against the Jews who remain broken off does not understand the heart of God, and is puffed up, forgetting that he too was a sinner who was saved only by grace. If Paul lamented the breaking off of His kinsmen (Romans 9:1-5) then it means so does Jesus.

Joseph longed for his kinsmen while in Egypt - to such an extent that when he finally was reconciled to them, the whole house of Pharaoh heard his loud sobs. Joseph is a type of Jesus. If there IS any scripture that speaks about reconciliation between Judah and Jesus (a Jew by birth and the Son of David, King of the Jews), that would be it. NOT Romans 11.

I'm not saying that Joseph's reconciliation with Israel IS a biblical type of what is to come - I'm saying it might be. They all came to live with Joseph in the land of Goshen after the reconciliation, and they had a prolonged period of peace and prosperity until Gog of Magog a Pharaoh arose who had not known Joseph.

But they did not recognize Joseph until he told them who he was. And he had been brought out from the dungeon and exalted to the highest place in all Egypt, Pharaoh's own throne being the only exception. All the Egyptians bowed the knee to him. Eventually so too did all Israelites.

Romans 11 is not the place to look for any future reconciliation of Jesus with the Jews. The estrangement of Joseph from Israel while he was still estranged from them speaks of Romans 11 - except that in the New Covenant there is, and always has been, a remnant of Jews who are saved - the Olive tree did not die when branches were broken off. The root of the Olive tree is God's election of Abraham and his seed and God's covenant promises to Abraham and his seed. That's Israel.

Manasseh and Ephraim were Gentiles, had a Gentile mother and were born in Egypt - yet they were the seed of Israel, through Joseph.

Jacob/Israel, when on his deathbed, told Joseph that the seed of Ephraim would become the fullness of the Gentiles (m'lo goyim in the Hebrew, translated into all English Bibles as "a multitude of nations").

Ephraim was the dominant tribe in the Northern kingdom, which in prophecy is collectively called Ephraim, or the house of Israel, or Israel, interchangeably. Exiled circa 725 B.C the vast majority of them became scattered among the nations, where their descendants have been intermarrying with Gentiles to this day - to such an extent that they are untraceable today, because even if someone could prove that he is genetically descended from Israel, his ancestry would still be mixed. Hosea1:10 and Romans 9:24-26 include Gentile believers in Christ in the promise of "Ephraim's" restoration where Ephraim is called "sons of the living God" instead of where it was said to them "You are not my people".

Circa 725 B.C they ceased to exist as a nation (one nation) before God (Isaiah 7:8; Hosea 1:9-11).

Gentiles who believe in Jesus are grafted into Israel and in Christ there is NEITHER Jew NOR Gentile.

The future is in God's hands. Most of us hope for the salvation of the Jews, and like the angels who rejoice over one sinner being saved, most Christians rejoice over one Jew turning to faith in Christ, each and every time it happens. We rejoice over any Gentile coming to faith in Christ too, but for some reason we rejoice even more if the person is Jewish.

But that does not mean we should be exalting one group of unbelievers over all others just because one group is Jewish. Nor should we exalt one Christian above another because of his or her ethnic identity.​

The First and Second Parts of Gospel Prophecy in Genesis concerning Joseph and his Brethren has been fulfilled.

The Third Part will be fullfilled at His Second Coming

This is GUARANTEED

 

[Pierac]

1. John taught us that ALL humans who do not believe in the Son of God are anti-Christ(ian). (1 John 2:22-23).

2. Paul taught that not ALL naturally-born descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are Israel (Romans 9:6-8), because those of the naturally-born descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who do not believe in the seed of Abraham (Christ) are broken off from God's covenant-promises that He made with Abraham and his seed (Romans 11:1-5, 17).

They are broken off from the Israel of God. (Galatians 6:16).
​

3. Jeremiah said that God would not cut off ALL the seed of Israel when God brings in a New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:36-37), meaning that a remnant would be saved - just as occurred when Jesus had died and risen again (as Paul stated in Romans 11:1-5).

​

4. Paul taught us that Gentiles who do believe are grafted into Israel - into God's covenant-promises with Abraham and his seed - and are among the remnant of the naturally-born descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who believe. (Romans 11:17).

5. Peter and Paul both taught us that together these Jews and Gentiles in Christ are the living stones that are God's Tabernacle, indwelt by the Holy Spirit. (Ephesians 2:19-22; 1 Peter 2:5).

6. Paul taught that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile. (Galatians 3:28).

7. Therefore simple arithmetic and logic tells us that the church = Israel = the church.

The person who coined the phrase "Replacement Theology" in respect of what Jesus and His apostles taught is very, very confused, does not understand basic arithmetic, and exalts one anti-Christ(ian) nation above all other anti-Christ(ian) people merely because the nation that he exalts above all other unbelievers, are naturally-born descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Those who follow this heresy are so confused that they do not even realize that they are practicing replacement theology by replacing Christ - the seed who inherits all the promises of God contained in God's covenant with Abraham and his seed - with people who reject Him.

They also fail to realize that the Deliverer who came out of Zion is Jesus, and the day in which He made a covenant (the new covenant) with Israel was the day He took away their (and our) sins (Romans 11:26-27).

They do not understand that ever since the Deliverer came out of Zion and made a new covenant with Israel in the day He took away their (and our sins):-

(a) The fullness of the Gentiles is being grafted into Israel through faith in Christ, sharing with the naturally-born believing descendants of Israel in the root and fatness of the Olive tree; and

(b) IF (Romans 11:23) an unbelieving Jewish person repents of his or her unbelief, the person will be grafted back into the Israel that he is a naturally born descendant of ("their own Olive tree") - and this is because:

i. For the sake of God's promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, they are still loved.
ii. God had mercy on Gentiles who believe through their unbelief.
iii. God is able to graft them in again.

Those who follow this heresy of replacing Israel in Christ with those who are not in Christ, calling them "the chosen nation, or "the elect of God" are so confused that they think the Deliverer is still going to come out of Zion in order to take away ungodliness from Jacob by taking away their sins, and making a new covenant with Jacob (the house of Israel and the house of Judah) in His blood.

They do not understand that when Jesus returns, He returns in judgment of unbelievers, He is not going to return as the Deliverer who takes away sin a second time.​

So.... What is your Point?

NASB 1Co 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

NASB Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws (DRAGS) him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

NASB Joh 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

NASB Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

NASB Tit 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

NASB Mar 4:11 And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven."

Again... What is your Point...?

 

[Jack]

And yet Paul refers to Christians as the 'Israel of God'.

15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And all who will follow this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God. (Galatians 6:15-16)​

It is significant to note that "Israel" may mean in Hebrew, "God's Prince"; see Genesis 32:28 KJV:

And he said, "Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed." (Genesis 32:28)​

Though "He rassles with God" might be a better translation from the Hebrew. Anyway, this is what the Biblical understanding of "election" is: Being God's people.

As I have said, the NT makes a perfectly clear distinction between Gentile Christians and Israel.

Romans 11
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."

Couldn't be any clearer!

 

[Jack]

Then you should be shuddering.

(Because you are one of the identity thieves).

I'm just a Bible believing Gentile Christian. I'm not Israel and neither are you. Whose identity am I stealing? You don't have a clue!

 

[Jack]

Israel is made up of people. People in all four corners of the globe. Your Israel is dead because it's land without people.

Israel exists in the land God gave to the descendants of Abraham today, in the form of Jews in Christ.

Get a map. It's called Israel the Land of the Bible. You ain't Israel no matter how much you wannabee.

 

[Jack]

The Israel of God is the Body of Christ.

There are two Jerusalems and two Israels.

One Born from Above by the Spirit of God
AND
one from below who are in bondage to sin.

JESUS said: "And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

Israel of the flesh = "But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”
That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God"

Israel of the Spirit = "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Why aren't you in Israel, the Land of the Bible??? You're not Israel!

 

[Zao is life]

So.... What is your Point?

NASB 1Co 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

NASB Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws (DRAGS) him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

NASB Joh 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

NASB Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

NASB Tit 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

NASB Mar 4:11 And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven."

Again... What is your Point...?

My point is that when someone starts off and ends a post with something as devoid of substance as "What is your point?", then it's not worth reading anything beneath the first line of that post. There's no point because a post that begins with "What is your point?" is pointless.

Most of the others who have contributed to this thread got the point. If you don't get the point, well .. maybe tomorrow. Maybe never, because I won't try to help you by explaining the point to you.

 

[Zao is life]

As I have said, the NT makes a perfectly clear distinction between Gentile Christians and Israel.

Romans 11
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."

Couldn't be any clearer!

"All Israel" includes Gentile Christians + Jewish Christians. One people in Christ. The Deliverer came out of Zion nearly 2,000 years ago, turning away ungodliness from Jacob, and making a new covenant with them in the day He took away their sins.

Jews repenting (not continuing in unbelief and being grafted back in) + Gentiles being grafted in through their faith in the Deliverer that came out of Zion nearly 2,000 years ago, has been an ongoing thing for nearly 2,000 years.​

 

[JBO]

As I have said, the NT makes a perfectly clear distinction between Gentile Christians and Israel.

Romans 11
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."

Couldn't be any clearer!

If it couldn't be clearer, please tell us what the "fullness of the Gentiles" means. In doing so, you need to understand that the Greek word for fullness , pleroma, does not mean "full number".

 

[Jack]

"All Israel" includes Gentile Christians + Jewish Christians. One people in Christ.​

No it doesn't! Israel and Christian Gentiles are specifically different in the NT

The Deliverer came out of Zion nearly 2,000 years ago, turning away ungodliness from Jacob, and making a new covenant with them in the day He took away their sins.

Jews repenting (not continuing in unbelief and being grafted back in) + Gentiles being grafted in through their faith in the Deliverer that came out of Zion nearly 2,000 years ago, has been an ongoing thing for nearly 2,000 years.​

You're not Israel.

 

[Jack]

If it couldn't be clearer, please tell us what the "fullness of the Gentiles" means. In doing so, you need to understand that the Greek word for fullness , pleroma, does not mean "full number".

Oh please, we have enough self professed Greek experts here trying to rewrite the Bible to their liking.

 

[Zao is life]

I'm just a Bible believing Gentile Christian. I'm not Israel and neither are you. Whose identity am I stealing? You don't have a clue!

You're not a Gentile in Christ. Or a Jew in Christ.

If you're in Christ, that is.

Because there is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ.

Israel = the seed of Abraham in Christ.

Anyone not in Christ has either never been part of Israel, or is a naturally-born descendant of Israel who has been broken off from the Israel of God through unbelief.

Time for you to decide who you are. Because you are clearly in the midst of an identity crisis.

No it doesn't! Israel and Christian Gentiles are specifically different in the NT

You're not Israel.

As above.

 

[rwb]

I disagree. The chosen generation or spiritual kingdom of God will NEVER pass away. The Lord talked about the generation of evil or the generation of vipers.

The problem I've found with viewing "this generation" as the evil generation that shall be within and without the Church until they are utterly destroyed by the fire of God from heaven, is that Christ was speaking to the disciples about the things they and all the Church must endure from that moment to the end of days.

Christ speaks a parable of the fig tree to THEM. It makes no sense for Christ to say the evil generation should look for life beginning in the fig tree. Christ likened His kinsmen, ethnic Jews in unbelief to a fig tree. It was Israel of Old whom Christ cursed, saying they would never have life in them again FOREVER. After seeing and hearing what Christ had said and done, and they saw how the fig tree, symbolizing Israel in unbelief, withered and quickly died. The parable of the fig tree make sense, because Israel was never to have life in it again. Christ tells them they would know the spiritual Kingdom of God has come with great power when they see their fellow country men (fig tree) turn to Christ through faith and being born again of His Spirit. This is the elect remnant of Israel that Paul writes "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace." Since the Kingdom of God is not observable because it is within believers, they would know through the demonstration of power from above when proclaiming the Gospel would bring Light & eternal Life to those whom Christ had spiritually cursed and said they would never produce life again. And through them, the spiritual Kingdom of God would continue to grow as they too proclaim the Gospel, and the "Gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

For this reason "this generation" is "a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:" It is the Church, the Israel of God, all people of faith who shall endure to the end that Christ spoke of in this parable.

I disagree. The seventh Trumpet is the last trump when Christ returns and the church raptures out. The loosening of Satan will take place BEFORE that.

Satan is not loosed for his little season until the thousand years, symbolizing time expires. Time shall be no longer when the seventh angel begins to sound. When this time, symbolized a thousand years expires, the seventh angel shall sound that THIS time, symbolized a thousand years should be no longer, because the spiritual Kingdom of God is complete. The mystery finished, the last Gentile to be saved has completed the spiritual Kingdom of God through the Gospel proclaimed in the power of the Holy Spirit. The time for proclaiming the Gospel of Christ and completing the spiritual Kingdom of God is the time, symbolized a thousand years that expires when the seventh angel begins to sound. The thousand years of Satan's binding are the same period of time the Church is sent out unto all the earth with the Gospel. That is the whole purpose for a thousand years. It symbolically speaks of the time given the Church to take the message of the Gospel unto all the nations of the world, so the spiritual Kingdom of God can be filled before Satan is loosed for a little season.

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

It is not ALL time that is finished when the symbolic thousand years expires, but time given for building the Kingdom of God. Remember that is the whole purpose for which Satan was bound, "that he should deceive the nations no longer." After this time has expired, Satan is freed. The whole point of giving Satan his freedom after the Kingdom of God is complete is for God to display His greater power and might over him to be witnessed before all the earth.

The Church is caught up to meet the Lord in the air, clothed in immortal & incorruptible bodies. Then God's wrath shall be poured out upon all who are of Gog and Magog, sending down fire from heaven to destroy them all. Satan's little season will be brief, allowing him just enough time to gather Gog (antichrists) and Magog (antichristian party) from the four quarters of the earth, and surround the army (camp) of the saints, the beloved city of the living God, in which believers spiritually are, heavenly Jerusalem, then fire will come down from God and devour them all.

Hebrews 12:22-23 (KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

To be continued

 

[rwb]

continuation of post #36

The Two Witnesses or Two Prophets are actually Elect who have received the power of the Holy Spirit to preach the salvation gospel to the whole world since Pentecost. The Two Witnesses preached as long as Satan/Beast was kept in the bottomless pit. After God see that all of His Elect has been secured (saved) through the tesitmony of Two Witnesses, their testimony is finished. That is when Satan will finally be loosened from the bottomless pit allowed by God to wage spiritual war against the Two Witnesses (Elect) IN THE CHURCH which is symbolically the great city to overcome them and kill (silence) them. How? By the false gospels of the false propehts and christs sent in by Satan to deceive those people who have NOT yet been sealed by God in the church, Revelation 9:4. The false prophets and christs, as well as people deceived by them are sick and tired of hearing the truthful testimony of Two Witnesses because it torments them about their sins. Now that they have overcome the Two Witnesses with false gospels coming out of the mouths of the false christs and prophets. They do not care if the truth has been silenced (did not bother to bury them) and have rejoiced with their false doctrine and exchange among themselves. This is how Satan, through the false prophets and christs, start to take over the control of God's congregation and will be for a little season. My point is...there will be some time for all of this before Christ returns and the rapture. The spiritual wars, spiritual famines, and spiritual sickness must take place in the church FIRST before Christ return. It is only a beginning - a beginning of sorrows.

Mat 24:5-8
(5) For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
(6) And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
(7) For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
(8) All these are the beginning of sorrows.

The spiritual war between holy nation and evil nation in the church all over the world will take place. There will be spiritual famines where lack of bread (gospel). In other words, many will not be able to hear the Word of God (obviously because Two Witnesses testimony is finished). And there are spiritual pestilences (sickness) where they no longer find Christ for healing (salvation). The earthquakes is the shaking of Church foundation as she loses her kingdom representative for God just like Israel had. See, all of this will take place AFTER the testimony of Two Witnesses is finish so the second coming of Christ will not take place at this time but after a little season will. That is why the period is called the "great tribulation" FOR the elect during that time.

As for "fire from heaven," it is not literal event as I will explain some other time. Remind me if you are interested to know about it since its 3am in the morning so I need to go bed.

Revelation 11:3-13 (KJV) And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

I've come to understand who/what the two witnesses represent differently. We seem always to assume the two witnesses are the elect body of Christ, or at the very least two specific individuals. The passage tells us they are the TWO olive trees and TWO candlesticks. Two candlesticks most will agree symbolizes the universal Church that Christ established on earth through His Gospel when He came to earth a man. While it is true that believers are witnesses for the Gospel of Christ, I don't believe "two witnesses" adequately describes the whole body of Christ, the Church. The two candlesticks IMO represent the Gospel & Holy Spirit. It is the Word (Gospel) of Christ that we proclaim with Holy Spirit power, but the two witnesses are specifically the preached Word of God.

The two olive trees, I believe represent the preached Word of God also from Old, before Christ came to build His Church through His Gospel. The two witnesses being the Word of God from Old was the Law & Prophets. It was from the written Law and Prophets of Old that man heard of God and learned the Word of God.

I doubt that any believer in Christ would deny the power of God's Word. Scripture tells us it is the power of God unto salvation unto whosoever believes. But also, condemnation and death to those who reject and deny His Word. When the Word has accomplished the purpose for which it was sent unto the world, time that was given for the Word of God to be proclaimed unto the world, bringing new birth to all who believe, will expire. That time is symbolized a thousand two hundred and threescore days. Equal to the amount of time given the Gentiles (those in unbelief) forty and two months, to tread down the "holy city", which city believers are.

Hebrews 12:22-24 (KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

These times for building as the Word of God is proclaimed and for treading down and trying to destroy are equal amounts of time during the time when Satan is bound. The time symbolized a thousand years. These times are symbolic of the whole age of God's grace as His Word is proclaimed throughout the four corners of the earth. Just as the beginning when the Word (Christ) was killed, so too as this age approaches the end, when the spiritual Kingdom of God is complete, the Word of God will once more be silenced, not physically killed, but symbolically duplicating the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ in the beginning of this Gospel age.

The seventh trumpet begins to sound, Satan is released from his pit, gathers together Gog & Magog (all the unbelieving world) and just as the unbelieving world crucified The Word, so too Satan and his minions will silence the Word of God at the end of this age. The Word, that is Christ, physically lay dead in a tomb for three and a half days before He was resurrected and came to life again. So too the Word of God shall be as though dead, but not in a tomb/grave, because it is not possible to completely silence the Word of God. Because the Word of God that was preached on and believed on in the world is hidden in the hearts of all who hear the Word and believe.

Just as Christ was silent in the grave for three- and one-half days, and the world believed they had put an end to the Word of God, so too the Word of God will become silent to the world that belongs to Satan. There will be no more opportunity for those still in unbelief to be eternally saved, because none of those still in unbelief will be able to hear the Word proclaimed. Only believers will hear His Word that is hidden in their hearts, as He calls His elect Church to come up to meet the Lord in the air. And the whole world will see the Church ascend up to heaven in a cloud, clothed in immortal & incorruptible bodies of flesh & bone, resurrected alive through the spirits that will be with Christ when He comes again.

 

[Zao is life]

The problem I've found with viewing "this generation" as the evil generation that shall be within and without the Church until they are utterly destroyed by the fire of God from heaven, is that Christ was speaking to the disciples about the things they and all the Church must endure from that moment to the end of days.

I know your posts were addressed to @TribulationSigns but I'm jumping into the new subjects you are raising in your psts, if I may?

IMO whether Jesus was speaking to them in the Olivet Discourse about "all the church must endure from the moment He gave the Olivet Discourse to the end of days" or only about the signs of the end of the Age and His return, is a matter of opinion.

I've already stated why I disagree with you in your thread on the subject of the fig tree, and none of what you are speaking about now has anything to do with the OP in this thread but that's okay because that subject in this thread has run its course.​

Christ speaks a parable of the fig tree to THEM. It makes no sense for Christ to say the evil generation should look for life beginning in the fig tree.

Christ likened His kinsmen, ethnic Jews in unbelief to a fig tree. It was Israel of Old whom Christ cursed, saying they would never have life in them again FOREVER. After seeing and hearing what Christ had said and done, and they saw how the fig tree, symbolizing Israel in unbelief, withered and quickly died.

Christ tells them they would know the spiritual Kingdom of God has come with great power when they see their fellow country men (fig tree) turn to Christ through faith and being born again of His Spirit.

That's also a matter of opinion. IMO you falsely equate a fig tree putting out leaves being a sign that summer is near, for a fig tree being cursed for producing no fruit. Jesus comparing our knowing that summer is near when a fig tree puts out leaves with us knowing that "He is near, even at the doors" when we see the signs He gave in the Olivet Discourse,

is not the same as cursing a fig tree for bearing no fruit. Leaves appearing on a tree causing us to know that summer is near, and fruit or the lack of fruit are not the same symbol, and Luke's version of the same statement Jesus made in the Olivet Discourse adds, "the fig tree and ALL the trees".​

Since the Kingdom of God is not observable because it is within believers, they would know through the demonstration of power from above when proclaiming the Gospel would bring Light & eternal Life to those whom Christ had spiritually cursed and said they would never produce life again.

Again, that's your opinion, which is a logical fallacy IMO, because the logical conclusion of your argument is that there was no Jewish remnant at that time or since then, because the fig tree that was cursed refers the unbelieving naturally-born seed of Israel, and you mentioned that "Christ had spiritually cursed them and said they would never produce life again." Yet Paul said that if they do not continue in unbelief, they would be grafted into the Olive tree again, and produce fruit again,

So your interpretation contradicts itself, IMO.

The fig tree that Christ cursed was referring to the unbelieving Jews and the leadership of Israel appointed by the Mosaic legal system, and the entire Mosaic system, and to all the people who held onto the law, when Jesus became their stumbling stone (Romans 9:31-33).

IMO because the foundation for your interpretation is false, everything you build on top of it is false also - which is why you proceed to falsely equate a parable of a fig tree putting out leaves telling us that summer is near, with BOTH the fig tree that was cursed so that no fruit would ever grow on it again AND with the remnant of the Jews who believe.​

This is the elect remnant of Israel that Paul writes "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace." And through them, the spiritual Kingdom of God would continue to grow as they too proclaim the Gospel, and the "Gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

Because of your first misinterpretation you must of necessity equate "this generation" that Jesus mentioned in His Olivet Discourse - who would not taste death until they see all the signs He gave, with the entire gospel Age:​

For this reason "this generation" is "a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:" It is the Church, the Israel of God, all people of faith who shall endure to the end that Christ spoke of in this parable.

After this you then you go ahead in your very long posts by introducing Amil assertions regarding the thousand years and binding of Satan etc,

all of which is changing the subject again from the OP to a third subject,

and all you're doing in your posts, is giving a long essay about your own interpretations about the end of the Age, the millennium, the binding of Satan, and what Revelation 10:5-6 is saying - an interpretation which is not shared by many, such as the translators of the Netfree version of the scriptures:

Revelation 10
5 Then the angel I saw standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven
6 and swore by the one who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, and the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it, "There will be no more delay!
7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to blow his trumpet, the mystery of God is completed, just as he has proclaimed to his servants the prophets."​

Satan is not loosed for his little season until the thousand years, symbolizing time expires. Time shall be no longer when the seventh angel begins to sound. When this time, symbolized a thousand years expires, the seventh angel shall sound that THIS time, symbolized a thousand years should be no longer, because the spiritual Kingdom of God is complete. The mystery finished, the last Gentile to be saved has completed the spiritual Kingdom of God through the Gospel proclaimed in the power of the Holy Spirit. The time for proclaiming the Gospel of Christ and completing the spiritual Kingdom of God is the time, symbolized a thousand years that expires when the seventh angel begins to sound.

I realize you got VERY carried away wanting to share your own interpretations of New Testament prophetic scripture, but in your posts all you did was to make a list of (quite a few different) assertions which are your interpretations of those things, all of which is not shared by many other Christians.

Which actually hijacked this thread , but as I say, I don't mind, because the subject of the OP has run its course, and all that those who have argued against the OP have been able to say is, "You're not Israel", and "the Church is not Israel", repeating that statement like a mantra which, if said often enough, will somehow come true (but without their providing scripture to support any of their assertions).

So I'm going to close this loooong post of mine (which replied to your looong post) by saying that in all the times I've seen you talk about the millennium and the binding of Satan, you have never provided any valid reason why the New Testament contains a number of passages (which I can quote) which imply the exact opposite of the notion that Satan "was bound in the pit at the time of Calvary".

But I can't go into that now, just to speak about everything you said in your previous two posts. This post is too long already
AND you never even addressed those two posts to me, anyway, but to @TribulationSigns

PS: Please, please try and shorten your posts to one subject at a time instead of giving your own commentary on the whole of the New Testament.

In other words, if you're going to talk about whether or not Satan was bound, try stick to that subject only instead of giving your interpretations of the entire New Testament which are based on Satan being bound.

@rwb I.O.W If you're going to speak about the fig tree being cursed and a fig tree putting out leaves telling us that summer is near, stick to that subject - it may involve talking about why you believe it's referring to the fruit being produced by the remnant of Israel, and those Jews who do not continue in unbelief during the entire gospel Age, but it does not involve the binding of Satan and whether or not the gospel Age = the millennium, or what Revelation 10:6 means.​

 

[ewq1938]

If it couldn't be clearer, please tell us what the "fullness of the Gentiles" means. In doing so, you need to understand that the Greek word for fullness , pleroma, does not mean "full number".

You are wrong.


G4138
πλήρωμα
plērōma
play'-ro-mah
From G4137; repletion or completion, that is, (subjectively) what fills (as contents, supplement, copiousness, multitude), or (objectively) what is filled (as container, performance, period): - which is put in to fill up, piece that filled up, fulfilling, full, fulness.
Total KJV occurrences: 17

 

[Jack]

You're not a Gentile in Christ. Or a Jew in Christ.

If you're in Christ, that is.

Because there is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ.

Israel = the seed of Abraham in Christ.

Anyone not in Christ has either never been part of Israel, or is a naturally-born descendant of Israel who has been broken off from the Israel of God through unbelief.

Time for you to decide who you are. Because you are clearly in the midst of an identity crisis.

As above.

"Whose identity am I stealing? You don't have a clue!"