Romans 11 and the real Replacement Theology

[rwb]

That's also a matter of opinion. IMO you falsely equate a fig tree putting out leaves being a sign that summer is near, for a fig tree being cursed for producing no fruit. Jesus comparing our knowing that summer is near when a fig tree puts out leaves with us knowing that "He is near, even at the doors" when we see the signs He gave in the Olivet Discourse,

We already know that Jesus is near and at the doors. He is but the Gospel spoken and believed away from each and every one of us. The signs Christ gives regarding His coming again is not a fig tree showing life, because His coming will be sudden and unexpected for all who are not watching and waiting. His coming again shall be after the tribulation that comes upon the whole earth as the Gospel is proclaimed unto all the nations of the world. Then He tells us when He comes the sun will be darkened, the moon will not shine, the stars shall fall from heaven and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of man shall be seen in heaven, and all in unbelief will mourn when they too see the Son of man coming in the clouds with power and great glory. Lastly when He comes again there will be a great trumpet sounding and His angels will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 24:26-27 (KJV) Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

is not the same as cursing a fig tree for bearing no fruit. Leaves appearing on a tree causing us to know that summer is near, and fruit or the lack of fruit are not the same symbol, and Luke's version of the same statement Jesus made in the Olivet Discourse adds, "the fig tree and ALL the trees".

As I've already said, and now for others reading here, I will say again. The purpose for Christ speaking in parables is in every instance that we might know the spiritual Kingdom of God has come. Especially in the beginning days of the Gospel age, many believed and some still believe today that the Kingdom of God will be physically manifested upon this earth. Which is why Christ spoke in parables, to let His disciples know through things that are common that His Kingdom is within you. The parable of the fig tree is no different, the first century Jewish disciples would understand the Kingdom of God is not a physical Kingdom and cannot be seen upon this earth, for His Kingdom is a spiritual Kingdom that is within believers. When these first century disciples see the fig tree that had been cursed showing signs of life, like all trees should, they would know without doubt that the Kingdom of God is near at hand.

Luke 21:29-31 (KJV) And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

 

[JBO]

Oh please, we have enough self professed Greek experts here trying to rewrite the Bible to their liking.

Oh Please??? Well then, maybe you could find us another example in the NT where fullness means full number of anything.

 

[JBO]

You're not a Gentile in Christ. Or a Jew in Christ.

If you're in Christ, that is.

Because there is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

So then, I guess you are neither male nor female. Interesting!

 

[Zao is life]

I disagree. The chosen generation or spiritual kingdom of God will NEVER pass away. The Lord talked about the generation of evil or the generation of vipers.

The problem I've found with viewing "this generation" as the evil generation that shall be within and without the Church until they are utterly destroyed by the fire of God from heaven, is that Christ was speaking to the disciples about the things they and all the Church must endure from that moment to the end of days.

-- Truly I say to you, This [hoûtos] the generation [o geneá] shall not pass until all these things are fulfilled. -- Matthew 24:34.

[StrongsGreek] 3778 houtos hoo'-tos, including nominative masculine plural houtoi hoo'-toy, nominative feminine singular haute how'-tay, and nominative feminine plural hautai how'-tahee from the article 3588 (O or the) and 846 (autos or the same); the he (she or it), i.e. this or that (often with article repeated):--he (it was that), hereof, it, she, such as, the same, these, they, this (man, same, woman), which, who. see GREEK for 846 see GREEK for 3588

[StrongsGreek] 1074 genea ghen-eh-ah' from (a presumed derivative of) 1085; a generation; by implication, an age (the period or the persons):--age, generation, nation, time. see GREEK for 1085

Let's look at some examples:-

Hebrews 3:10 (talking about the generation in the wilderness during the days of Moses): "Therefore I was grieved with that generation [o genea] and said, They always err in their heart, and they have not known My ways."

Colossians 1:26 ".. the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations [o genea], but now has been revealed to His saints."

Ephesians 3:21 "To him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations [o genea], to the ages of the ages. Amen."

Ephesians 3:4-5 "by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) which in other generations [genea] was not made known to the sons of men, as it is now revealed to His holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit."

Acts 15:21 "For Moses from ancient generations [genea] has those in every city proclaiming him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day."

Acts 14:16 "who in past generations [genea] allowed all nations to walk in their own ways."

Acts 13:36 "For after he had served his own generation [genea] by the will of God, David fell asleep and was added to his fathers and saw corruption."

There is no difference in meaning between the English words "this generation", "that generation", "the generation/s", "ancient generations" etc, and the Greek words that they are translated from. To even suggest that every time Jesus said "this generation", He was talking about the 1st century generation (just because He often was), is a logical fallacy of note (though Preterists and Partial Preterists insist it is the case).

Therefore "this generation" must - and can only be - understood by the context of the surrounding words and sentences, i.e "this generation" is the generation that is the same as the generation that is being spoken about in whichever verses the words houtos o genea (the same the generation) appear. The context of the surrounding passage decides what time or period in history it's referring to, for example:

Luke 17:25 "But first He must suffer many things and be rejected of this [houtos] the generation [o genea]. (i.e the generation that is the same as the generation being spoken about in the verse).

Luke 21:31-32 "So also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. Truly I say to you, The same [houtos] the generation [o genea] shall not pass away until all these things are fulfilled."

The context of Luke 21:31-32 is this:

-- And then they shall see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to happen, then look up and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near. And He spoke a parable to them: Behold the fig-tree and all the trees. Now when they sprout leaves, seeing it you will know that summer is now near. So also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. Truly I say to you, The same [houtos] the generation [o genea] shall not pass away until all these things are fulfilled.-- Luke 21:27-32

The context is the same in Matthew 24:

And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory. And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Now learn a parable of the fig tree. When its branch is still tender and puts out leaves, you know that summer is near. So you, likewise, when you see all these things, shall know that it is near, at the doors. Truly I say to you, This [hoûtos] the generation [o geneá] shall not pass until all these things are fulfilled. -- Matthew 24:32-34.

The context does not speak of the entire gospel Age, IMO.​

 

[rwb]

So I'm going to close this loooong post of mine (which replied to your looong post) by saying that in all the times I've seen you talk about the millennium and the binding of Satan, you have never provided any valid reason why the New Testament contains a number of passages (which I can quote) which imply the exact opposite of the notion that Satan "was bound in the pit at the time of Calvary".

Then show them in a concise manner, that we too may know! The discussion I was having with TS was necessarily long, because he had many bullet points that needed to be addressed. If you have a problem with overly long replies you don't inject yourself into the discussion.

PS: Please, please try and shorten your posts to one subject at a time instead of giving your own commentary on the whole of the New Testament.

This is humorous because one common theme in these discussions is that they rarely stay on topic. This too is mostly necessarily so, because the Bible is one cohesive whole, and one doctrine almost invariably leads to another part that must also be considered if we are to understand the whole. And I make every effort to confirm from the Word of God the conclusions I've made. Unless you can prove how I have not rightly understood, then you appear to act as though a person of pride wanting no other opinions, biblical or otherwise that are not your own. Let us know when you have that "one subject at a time" down to a fine art. Of course, it is most likely because you, like so many others, want to take only the passages and verses that support your opinion, thinking, 'please don't bore me with the details' that may prove my opinions are simply whet I've read into the Bible.

 

[Jack]

Oh Please??? Well then, maybe you could find us another example in the NT where fullness means full number of anything.

Oh Please??? Well then, maybe you could find us another example in the NT where fullness means full number of anything.

Fullness of the Gentiles clearly means when all the Gentiles who will be saved are saved.

 

[Zao is life]

Oh Please??? Well then, maybe you could find us another example in the NT where fullness means full number of anything.

It could, though. if you look at the meaning. The context points to it meaning until every Gentile who is to be grafted in has been grafted in - the full number.

 

[Zao is life]

Fullness of the Gentiles clearly means when all the Gentiles who will be saved are saved.

And there are no Gentiles in Christ.
Nor are there any Jews in Christ.

And you're having a hectic identity crisis.

 

[rwb]

Therefore "this generation" must - and can only be - understood by the context of the surrounding words and sentences, i.e "this generation" is the generation that is the same as the generation that is being spoken about in whichever verses the words houtos o genea (the same the generation) appear. The context of the surrounding passage decides what time or period in history it's referring to, for example:

Exactly! And what was the generation Christ was speaking to called?

1 Peter 2:9 (KJV) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

This generation is not limited to only those first century Jewish disciples of Christ, because through them the "chosen generation" the Gospel would be preached and "this generation" would grow to become an innumerable multitude from every nation of the world.

 

[Jack]

And there are no Gentiles in Christ.

Huh? lol

Nor are there any Jews in Christ.

John 11
45 Then many of the Jews who had come to Mary, and had seen the things Jesus did, believed in Him.

And you're having a hectic identity crisis.

I'm just a Bible believing Christian Gentile.

 

[Zao is life]

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

So then, I guess you are neither male nor female. Interesting!

Your ridiculous - and false - deduction of what it means seeks to nullify Paul's teaching. I would drop that as one of my favourite (dumb) arguments if I were you.

In the flesh there is male and female. In Christ not. In the flesh there is Jew and Gentile. Not in Christ.

 

[JBO]

Fullness of the Gentiles clearly means when all the Gentiles who will be saved are saved.

Nah! Fullness there carries a meaning much closer to that which we see in passages such as John 1:16, Ephesians 1:23; 3:19; 5:13. or especially Colossians1:19; 2:9,

But it is never used to mean the full number of anything. If that is what was meant, then that is what would have been said, but it didn't.

 

[JBO]

Your ridiculous - and false - deduction of what it means seeks to nullify Paul's teaching. I would drop that as one of my favourite (dumb) arguments if I were you.

In the flesh there is male and female. In Christ not. In the flesh there is Jew and Gentile. Not in Christ.

Hey, I was just following your lead. So I guess I was following your ridiculous lead.

 

[Jack]

Nah! Fullness there carries a meaning much closer to that which we see in passages such as John 1:16, Ephesians 1:23; 3:19; 5:13. or especially Colossians1:19; 2:9,

But it is never used to mean the full number of anything. If that is what was meant, then that is what would have been said, but it didn't.

Quote the Scriptures.

 

[Zao is life]

The signs Christ gives regarding His coming again is not a fig tree showing life,

The analogy of the fig tree that Jesus indeed gave of His coming again is not talking about a cursed fig tree showing life again, as you keep falsely asserting. The fig tree in the parable in the Olivet Discourse was never dead. It had been alive and well, but had lost its leaves during the winter of this gospel Age that is so rife with struggles and suffering and evil. You're the only one who insists on falsely applying it to the cursed fig tree and to the entire Age. Jesus did not do that, and the apostles who recorded His words did not do that either.

It's an analogy between a sign that summer is near and the signs of the end of the Age that Jesus gave in the Olivet Discourse that His coming again is at the doors.

He could have used any tree for that analogy - and indeed according to Luke - He did.

As I've already said, and now for others reading here, I will say again. The purpose for Christ speaking in parables is in every instance that we might know the spiritual Kingdom of God has come.

And the fig tree spoken of in the Olivet Discourse does not fall under the above category. Your placing it in the above category does not make it belong there. Besides this, what you say above is your invention. Jesus used parables for other things also.

Besides this, a parable is a metaphorical story with a meaning. The fig tree analogy in the Olivet Discourse is not a story.

 

[Zao is life]

Hey, I was just following your lead. So I guess I was following your ridiculous lead.

No you're just proving that you have your joker cap on your head and don't feel the need to be serious about what you should not be playing around with - the Word of God. I won't see any more of your posts. Not because I'll place you on ignore but because I just won't read it. You've already made it obvious that whatever you "contribute" will not be valuable enough.

Goodbye

 

[Philip James]

maybe you could find us another example in the NT where fullness means full number of anything.

And coming to her, he said, "Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you."

"Full of Grace" Versus "Highly Favored"

Happy Feast of Christ the King!

Pax et Bonum

 

[JBO]

Quote the Scriptures.

You can't look them up?

 

[Zao is life]

This is humorous because one common theme in these discussions is that they rarely stay on topic. This too is mostly necessarily so, because the Bible is one cohesive whole,

LOL. You write a concise commentary of the whole New Testament including subjects that no one else had mentioned.

Honestly now, it's not fair to expect people to read your whole commentary of the New Testament. The millennium, Revelation 10:6, the binding of Satan etc was not even remotely the topic brought up by anyone else.

I don't want to have to ignore all your posts just because when I have to try and sift out what was on topic here or in your discussion with another poster, it's a bit much. It would be much nicer if you try and sift out all the stuff that isn't on topic to what you and someone else were discussing, before you post.

But okay if you don't want to, then don't blame me for not reading everything you said if what I say to you makes it obvious I never read your entire post

 

[Jack]

You can't look them up?

I quote my Scriptures. It's not difficult.