Romans 11 and the real Replacement Theology

[L.A.M.B.]

No.

I didn't think so.......
Thanks for answering.

 

[Zao is life]

The Catholics were around for all of these guys. They were just not big and popular yet, but they were around. I once read somewhere that historians found letters and even holy water as far back as the year 80 AD. The roots even before the Catholics can probably be traced back to the pagans like everything else the Catholics are about. And I'm a King James guy, but do look at other versions to get a better take on a verse. For an example I love the way the NIV handles 2 Corinthians 5:17. Same meaning but the NIV just nails it...

King James Bible
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

New International Version
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

Wow. A new creation in a man who according to you is not God. Amazing.

 

[Peterlag]

Would the church fathers have believed these essential Catholic dogmas? If not, how could they be considered "Catholic"?

1. “All the names which in the Scripture are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope.” Robert Cardinal Bellarmine, De Conciliorum Auctoriatate (On the Authority of the Councils) Bk 2, chap. 17
2. “The pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God. He is the divine monarch and supreme emperor, and king of kings. Hence the pope is crowned with a triple crown, as King of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions.” Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Bibliotheca, vol.6, art. “Papa II”
3. “We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty.” Pope Leo XIII, in an encyclical letter dated June 20, 1894, The Great Encyclical Letters of Leo XIII, p. 304.

It appears you yourself are Catholic and since I believe folks in such a group are a cult would be why I do not have anything else to say to you.

 

[Peterlag]

I rated your post with the laughing emoji because you're schooling supposed Catholics.

Good on ya, mate.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Is Catholic (term) - Wikipedia wrong?

 

[Peterlag]

The historical fathers of Jesus the Christ church, not the Roman empire's religion, are the 12 Apostles and Paul, and those they appointed as pastors, elders, deacons and teachers whom were called of God .

The Protestant Reformation leaders were not Christ's church fathers either but rather private interpreters, murders ,ect & sinners,seeking their own to break away from catholicism, which is not Christ's church..

These sorts have tried to divide Christ's church and body.

Another Catholic speaks.

 

[Philip James]

Ignatius referred to the Trinity. He wasn't Roman Catholic.
Polycarp referred to the Trinity. He wasn't Roman Catholic.
Theophilus referred to the Trinity. He wasn't Roman Catholic.
Tertullian referred to the Trinity. He wasn't Roman Catholic.
Hippolytus referred to the Trinity. He wasn't Roman Catholic.
Origen referred to the Trinity. He wasn't Roman Catholic.

All of these preceded the appearance of institutionalized Roman Catholicism by at least a century.

All of them were indeed Catholic, but not of the Roman rite..

You'll find the first written usage of the term Catholic in reference to the Church in Ignatius' writings.. circa 100 AD

Alma Redemptoris Mater

 

[Philip James]

The Catholics were around for all of these guys. They were just not big and popular yet,

Yes indeed they were 'around' and not popular,, no especially not popular with the Jews and the Roman government which put many of them to death...

But we could not be destroyed and indeed cannot be... for 2000 years various people and governments have looked for the destruction of the One, Holy, Apostolic and Catholic Church... but we have Christ's assurance that it will never fail..

Alma Redemptoris Mater

 

[Philip James]

The historical fathers of Jesus the Christ church, not the Roman empire's religion, are the 12 Apostles and Paul, and those they appointed as pastors, elders, deacons and teachers whom were called of God .

Hello Lamb,

Indeed and St. Ignatius was appointed bishop of Antioch by the apostles.

Alma Redemptoris Mater

 

[Philip James]

Would the church fathers have believed these essential Catholic dogmas? If not, how could they be considered "Catholic"?

1. “All the names which in the Scripture are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope.” Robert Cardinal Bellarmine, De Conciliorum Auctoriatate (On the Authority of the Councils) Bk 2, chap. 17
2. “The pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God. He is the divine monarch and supreme emperor, and king of kings. Hence the pope is crowned with a triple crown, as King of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions.” Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Bibliotheca, vol.6, art. “Papa II”
3. “We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty.” Pope Leo XIII, in an encyclical letter dated June 20, 1894, The Great Encyclical Letters of Leo XIII, p. 304.

ah coventee... none of that is Church dogma.. nice try..

 

[covenantee]

It appears you yourself are Catholic and since I believe folks in such a group are a cult would be why I do not have anything else to say to you.

I'm a Reformation Protestant, far removed from a Catholic.

What delusion would cause you to think otherwise?

 

[covenantee]

ah coventee... none of that is Church dogma.. nice try..

Has any pope ever publicly renounced it?

 

[Peterlag]

I'm a Reformation Protestant, far removed from a Catholic.

What delusion would cause you to think otherwise?

Oppsss... I misunderstood something you wrote. My mistake. Is this correct?

A study of the history of the Christian Church shows a definite development in the doctrine of the Trinity over the centuries. For example, the early form of the Apostles Creed (believed to date back to shortly after the time of the apostles themselves) does not mention the Trinity or the dual nature of Christ. The Nicene Creed that was written in 325 AD and modified later added the material about Jesus Christ being “eternally begotten” and the "true God” and about the Holy Spirit being “Lord.” But it was the Athanasian Creed that was most likely composed in the latter part of the 4th century or possibly even as early as the 5th century that was the first creed to explicitly state the doctrine of the Trinity.

It seems it would have been clearly stated in the Bible and in the earliest Christian creeds if the doctrine of the Trinity was genuine and central to Christian belief and especially if belief in it was necessary for salvation as many Trinitarians teach. God gave the Scriptures to the Jewish people, and the Jewish religion and worship that comes from that revelation does not contain any reference to or teachings about a triune God. Surely the Jewish people were qualified to read and understand it, but they never saw the doctrine of the Trinity

 

[Peterlag]

All of them were indeed Catholic, but not of the Roman rite..

You'll find the first written usage of the term Catholic in reference to the Church in Ignatius' writings.. circa 100 AD

Alma Redemptoris Mater

Yeah I just looked at that last night. Have the Catholics ever been right about anything? Give me something. I'm curious.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Some posters are displaying low reading comprehension, failure to thoroughly read a post, making assumptions from one's own understanding, lack of truthful communications, ect ect, in their statements. Are these "IN CHRIST " adults posting or children playing, calling others names ?

I do not sense light but rather a shadowing of darkness in understanding from many whom claim to be students of the word of God. Question is who is their god; the prince of this world or the creator of all; the sovereign GOD, ruler of heaven & earth ?

 

[covenantee]

Oppsss... I misunderstood something you wrote. My mistake. Is this correct?

A study of the history of the Christian Church shows a definite development in the doctrine of the Trinity over the centuries. For example, the early form of the Apostles Creed (believed to date back to shortly after the time of the apostles themselves) does not mention the Trinity or the dual nature of Christ. The Nicene Creed that was written in 325 AD and modified later added the material about Jesus Christ being “eternally begotten” and the "true God” and about the Holy Spirit being “Lord.” But it was the Athanasian Creed that was most likely composed in the latter part of the 4th century or possibly even as early as the 5th century that was the first creed to explicitly state the doctrine of the Trinity.

It seems it would have been clearly stated in the Bible and in the earliest Christian creeds if the doctrine of the Trinity was genuine and central to Christian belief and especially if belief in it was necessary for salvation as many Trinitarians teach. God gave the Scriptures to the Jewish people, and the Jewish religion and worship that comes from that revelation does not contain any reference to or teachings about a triune God. Surely the Jewish people were qualified to read and understand it, but they never saw the doctrine of the Trinity

The question in post 678 for which I'm awaiting your response was:

Would the church fathers have believed these essential Catholic dogmas? If not, how could they be considered "Catholic"?

1. “All the names which in the Scripture are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope.” Robert Cardinal Bellarmine, De Conciliorum Auctoriatate (On the Authority of the Councils) Bk 2, chap. 17
2. “The pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God. He is the divine monarch and supreme emperor, and king of kings. Hence the pope is crowned with a triple crown, as King of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions.” Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Bibliotheca, vol.6, art. “Papa II”
3. “We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty.” Pope Leo XIII, in an encyclical letter dated June 20, 1894, The Great Encyclical Letters of Leo XIII, p. 304.

 

[Gabriel _Arch]

I have no idea what you are talking about. Is Catholic (term) - Wikipedia wrong?

No. But you're being challenged about your knowledge about the Catholic topic by people who presume to know you're wrong. You're not,they are.

 

[Peterlag]

No. But you're being challenged about your knowledge about the Catholic topic by people who presume to know you're wrong. You're not,they are.

Thank You. There are many Christians who believe Catholic data and think they don't. I was one of them for years I believed I was a sinner saved by grace. It took me years before I woke up one day and said wait a cotton picking minute here. The Catholics believe that too. That's when I started looking at it. Much of the Roman Catholic doctrine was assimilated into Protestantism and is still being passed along as Christian groups continue to split off from one another. In a nutshell that is why even the independent church in your neighborhood today most probably believes that there is a trinity, dead people are alive, God is in control of everything that happens, the Four Gospels are written to Christians, and water baptism is relevant. And then there's everything that you know about our sin nature was taught to you by them.

 

[Peterlag]

The question in post 678 for which I'm awaiting your response was:

Would the church fathers have believed these essential Catholic dogmas? If not, how could they be considered "Catholic"?

1. “All the names which in the Scripture are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope.” Robert Cardinal Bellarmine, De Conciliorum Auctoriatate (On the Authority of the Councils) Bk 2, chap. 17
2. “The pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God. He is the divine monarch and supreme emperor, and king of kings. Hence the pope is crowned with a triple crown, as King of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions.” Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Bibliotheca, vol.6, art. “Papa II”
3. “We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty.” Pope Leo XIII, in an encyclical letter dated June 20, 1894, The Great Encyclical Letters of Leo XIII, p. 304.

The reason I did not answer earlier is because I don't know who the church fathers are. Your list 1 through 3 is not believed by me and I believe I can make sense out of everything the Apostle Paul wrote.

 

[Gabriel _Arch]

Thank You. There are many Christians who believe Catholic data and think they don't. I was one of them for years I believed I was a sinner saved by grace. It took me years before I woke up one day and said wait a cotton picking minute here. The Catholics believe that too. That's when I started looking at it. Much of the Roman Catholic doctrine was assimilated into Protestantism and is still being passed along as Christian groups continue to split off from one another. In a nutshell that is why even the independent church in your neighborhood today most probably believes that there is a trinity, dead people are alive, God is in control of everything that happens, the Four Gospels are written to Christians, and water baptism is relevant. And then there's everything that you know about our sin nature was taught to you by them.

Brilliant.Well said.

 

[covenantee]

I was one of them for years I believed I was a sinner saved by grace.

Ephesians 1:7
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;