Salvation by Faith Alone?
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We are saved by grace...eph 2:8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: rom 416Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,rom 5But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto rom 11And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.rom 324Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:So salvation is freely to the elect and faith recieves it..the knowlege and assurance of it..
Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.Jag
(thesuperjag;23537)
Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.Jag
That doesn't say faith ALONE
Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.Jag
That doesn't say faith ALONE
(savedbygrace57;23534)
We are saved by grace...eph 2:8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: rom 416Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,rom 5But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto rom 11And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.rom 324Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:So salvation is freely to the elect and faith recieves it..the knowlege and assurance of it..
Alright, I'm going to play devil's advocate. You say you are saved by grace, right? Well, I don't believe it. Prove to me that you are saved by grace.
We are saved by grace...eph 2:8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: rom 416Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,rom 5But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto rom 11And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.rom 324Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:So salvation is freely to the elect and faith recieves it..the knowlege and assurance of it..
Alright, I'm going to play devil's advocate. You say you are saved by grace, right? Well, I don't believe it. Prove to me that you are saved by grace.
This is an old argument and can get quite cyclical. If you are unwilling to believe then nobody can convince you by persuasion of argument. It is the Holy Spirit who allows us to believe. If you cannot see spiritual truth then, we cannot convince. If you wish to argue for the sake of argument then this is time wasted. There are many scripture verses to this effect.Perhaps time could be better served, by telling us what your objection is to salvation by grace and we can go from there. This will avoid much posturing and fruitless discussion.The verses given previously speak for themselves and unless you have anything to contradict them them this is all an exercise in futility.Salvation comes only through Jesus: Acts 4: 12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.Salvation is by grace and not works: Ephesians 2: 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.These passages show that there is no other way to salvation except through the person of Jesus Christ. You cannot save yourself by anything that you do. How the are we saved? By God's grace. How do we access what God has provided? Through belief in Jesus Christ.It isn't about fulfilling the requirements of the Law. It isn't about joining a group. It isn't about going to church. None of these saves. The only thing that matters is to believe in Jesus Christ so that you can receive what God has already done on the cross, won victory over sin and death. In doing this you receive the Holy Spirit to live in you and to work in you. It is by the power of the Holy Spirit that we know Jesus and the Father's will for us.It is the Holy Spirit that makes it possible to believe. John 16: 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.I suspect that you know these things and have other reasons unstated for asking.Blessings,Dunamite
(goldy;23530)
Could someone please direct me to the passage(s) that says we are saved by faith alone?
Who says we are ? We are saved by GRACE through our faith in Christwe are Saved because God in his loving Grace sent his begotten son to die for our sins.That should we believe (have faith) upon him and repent in his name we are freed of sin. Christ is way the door to salvation.BY GRACE through FAITH.
Could someone please direct me to the passage(s) that says we are saved by faith alone?
Who says we are ? We are saved by GRACE through our faith in Christwe are Saved because God in his loving Grace sent his begotten son to die for our sins.That should we believe (have faith) upon him and repent in his name we are freed of sin. Christ is way the door to salvation.BY GRACE through FAITH.
(Dunamite;23547)
This is an old argument and can get quite cyclical. If you are unwilling to believe then nobody can convince you by persuasion of argument. It is the Holy Spirit who allows us to believe. If you cannot see spiritual truth then, we cannot convince. If you wish to argue for the sake of argument then this is time wasted. There are many scripture verses to this effect.Perhaps time could be better served, by telling us what your objection is to salvation by grace and we can go from there. This will avoid much posturing and fruitless discussion.The verses given previously speak for themselves and unless you have anything to contradict them them this is all an exercise in futility.Salvation comes only through Jesus: Acts 4: 12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.Salvation is by grace and not works: Ephesians 2: 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.These passages show that there is no other way to salvation except through the person of Jesus Christ. You cannot save yourself by anything that you do. How the are we saved? By God's grace. How do we access what God has provided? Through belief in Jesus Christ.It isn't about fulfilling the requirements of the Law. It isn't about joining a group. It isn't about going to church. None of these saves. The only thing that matters is to believe in Jesus Christ so that you can receive what God has already done on the cross, won victory over sin and death. In doing this you receive the Holy Spirit to live in you and to work in you. It is by the power of the Holy Spirit that we know Jesus and the Father's will for us.It is the Holy Spirit that makes it possible to believe. John 16: 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.I suspect that you know these things and have other reasons unstated for asking.Blessings,Dunamite
Ok fine, you want my position? I think it's absolutely bogus to think that all you need to do is have faith in Jesus Christ because of an altar call you made on a particular Sunday to get to Heaven. Catholics don't believe you only have to have faith to be saved. Catholics also don't believe that you can get to Heaven just by your works (although I could make a much stronger argument for salvation through works rather than faith alone). It's not an either/or for us. It's a both/and for us. It's faith PLUS works. You have to PROVE you are saved by the grace of God. So again I ask, where does it say Faith Alone in the Bible in order to be saved? You wanted me to cut to the chase? Your wish is granted......
This is an old argument and can get quite cyclical. If you are unwilling to believe then nobody can convince you by persuasion of argument. It is the Holy Spirit who allows us to believe. If you cannot see spiritual truth then, we cannot convince. If you wish to argue for the sake of argument then this is time wasted. There are many scripture verses to this effect.Perhaps time could be better served, by telling us what your objection is to salvation by grace and we can go from there. This will avoid much posturing and fruitless discussion.The verses given previously speak for themselves and unless you have anything to contradict them them this is all an exercise in futility.Salvation comes only through Jesus: Acts 4: 12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.Salvation is by grace and not works: Ephesians 2: 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.These passages show that there is no other way to salvation except through the person of Jesus Christ. You cannot save yourself by anything that you do. How the are we saved? By God's grace. How do we access what God has provided? Through belief in Jesus Christ.It isn't about fulfilling the requirements of the Law. It isn't about joining a group. It isn't about going to church. None of these saves. The only thing that matters is to believe in Jesus Christ so that you can receive what God has already done on the cross, won victory over sin and death. In doing this you receive the Holy Spirit to live in you and to work in you. It is by the power of the Holy Spirit that we know Jesus and the Father's will for us.It is the Holy Spirit that makes it possible to believe. John 16: 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.I suspect that you know these things and have other reasons unstated for asking.Blessings,Dunamite
Ok fine, you want my position? I think it's absolutely bogus to think that all you need to do is have faith in Jesus Christ because of an altar call you made on a particular Sunday to get to Heaven. Catholics don't believe you only have to have faith to be saved. Catholics also don't believe that you can get to Heaven just by your works (although I could make a much stronger argument for salvation through works rather than faith alone). It's not an either/or for us. It's a both/and for us. It's faith PLUS works. You have to PROVE you are saved by the grace of God. So again I ask, where does it say Faith Alone in the Bible in order to be saved? You wanted me to cut to the chase? Your wish is granted......
(kriss;23549)
Who says we are ? We are saved by GRACE through our faith in Christwe are Saved because God in his loving Grace sent his begotten son to die for our sins.That should we believe (have faith) upon him and repent in his name we are freed of sin. Christ is way the door to salvation.BY GRACE through FAITH.
Alright great!! Now, prove to me that you are saved by grace through faith in Christ.
Who says we are ? We are saved by GRACE through our faith in Christwe are Saved because God in his loving Grace sent his begotten son to die for our sins.That should we believe (have faith) upon him and repent in his name we are freed of sin. Christ is way the door to salvation.BY GRACE through FAITH.
Alright great!! Now, prove to me that you are saved by grace through faith in Christ.
(goldy;23552)
(Kriss;23549)
Who says we are ?We are saved by GRACE through our faith in Christwe are Saved because God in his loving Grace sent his begotten son to die for our sins.That should we believe (have faith) upon him and repent in his name we are freed of sin. Christ is way the door to salvation.BY GRACE through FAITH.
Alright great!! Now, prove to me that you are saved by grace through faith in Christ.And this is what Lucy wants us to do. I think it is quite pointless to argue against an evil spirit...the spirits of the antichrists.Get thee behind me, Satan, thou art an offense to me. Thou savourest the things not of God, but of men.
(Kriss;23549)
Who says we are ?We are saved by GRACE through our faith in Christwe are Saved because God in his loving Grace sent his begotten son to die for our sins.That should we believe (have faith) upon him and repent in his name we are freed of sin. Christ is way the door to salvation.BY GRACE through FAITH.
Alright great!! Now, prove to me that you are saved by grace through faith in Christ.And this is what Lucy wants us to do. I think it is quite pointless to argue against an evil spirit...the spirits of the antichrists.Get thee behind me, Satan, thou art an offense to me. Thou savourest the things not of God, but of men.
(goldy;23551)
Ok fine, you want my position? I think it's absolutely bogus to think that all you need to do is have faith in Jesus Christ because of an altar call you made on a particular Sunday to get to Heaven. Catholics don't believe you only have to have faith to be saved. Catholics also don't believe that you can get to Heaven just by your works (although I could make a much stronger argument for salvation through works rather than faith alone). It's not an either/or for us. It's a both/and for us. It's faith PLUS works. You have to PROVE you are saved by the grace of God. So again I ask, where does it say Faith Alone in the Bible in order to be saved? You wanted me to cut to the chase? Your wish is granted......
You are right in some respects. James questions faith alone. In other words talk is cheap. That does not mean that you are not saved by grace. James 2: 14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?Many people twist James' words to mean that he is saying that we are saved by works. Rather he is saying that sincere faith shows itself in a changed character and in our actions.Many people are troubled by thinking that their are measures of faith. That would certainly be true if it was up to us. Fortunately it isn't. It is God who knows our heart. He knows whether any profession of faith is sincere. It is all or nothing, not a question of degree.Jesus tells us that not all who go by his name are his. He says that his sheep know his voice and he knows them. Furthermore he promises that no one that the Father gives to him will be lost.John 10: 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."We can be assured once we sincerely repent that we will be saved and that we will never lose that salvation. I can see all the people opposing, once saved, always saved, getting out their concordances, but wait.John deals with this in 1 John 2: 18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.In other words, you cannot lose what you never really had. Most people on both sides of the once saved always saved (OSAS) debate are talking at cross purposes.My feeling is that churches are full of people who do not belong to Christ. As I once heard, "Going to church does not make you a Christian anymore than going into a garage makes you a car." Many people who go to church go there for the wrong reasons and motive is everything. They go because they have always done so, or because their family goes. We do not become Christians by association. I once read a quote saying that a knife in the hand of assassin and a surgeon is the same, but what makes the results different is the motive or heart of the user. An assassin can kill with the same knife that the surgeon uses to save.It all comes down to heart. The Holy Spirit knows our heart. He knows whether any confession of faith is sincere. You also know your own heart. You know whether you truly believe. That should be enough for you.To bear the fruit that James wants we have to allow God to work in us and through us. Then we will show others Christ's love and character.After my brother became a Christian, I challenged him for still smoking and swearing. He teared up and said that I did not know how far he had come. I was the one who made the mistake of judging his heart based on outward appearances and I will always remember it. On the other hand, we also make the mistake when we judge those who go to church as being saved by appearances. We cannot assume that those who we hold dear are saved simply by outward appearances.My dad calls many people in his church programmed Christians. They do all of the right things and say all of the right things, but they do not have any love for others in their heart. He says that they know who Jesus is and can tell all about him, but they don't ever seem to have actually met him. I think this is where he and James see eye to eye.Becoming a Christian is so easy that most people cannot believe it is so simple. They think that there has to be more to it. They complicate things. Churches are people and people are flawed at the most fundamental level. Institutionalized churches are worse still because they have bureaucratized things and make rules, even where none exist. This again goes back to the heart of man. Many people turn to Islam or Judaism because they want rules. It gives them a comfort level. Christianity is alone among all religions in that it is based on relationship. Paul says that we are God's masterpiece. We are his love child. He made us because of his nature, love. He wants us to love him of our own free will and to walk with him. He desires our fellowship.We are made in his image. We need love more than food or water. Without love people have no hope. Prisoners of war keep themselves alive under the most trying circumstances by keeping in their mind someone they love. Without a reason to survive they give up and just slip away into despair and death. Take away love and we have nothing. We are born with this need.God gave us free will which was problematic from the beginning because God wanted love to be freely given. He did this because he knows that love cannot be forced on us. And the rest is history. We fell from grace and went our own way, cutting us off from God. But he never stopped loving us and desiring our fellowship. It is his nature and it is ours, to love.Jesus was God's response. God had to show us how much he cared. So he came in the person of Jesus Christ. This was planned all along because God foresaw our fall and was willing to bear the separation from his creation that he loved so much, because he knew that we would be reconciled to him. But he had to take that step because we were incapable. Think of how painful it would be to watch your child damage himself and others. Our self destructive behavior must hurt God very deeply.It is all about relationship and love. It is very simple. We acknowledge who God is and recognize him as our creator and Father. The only way to do this is by knowing what God did to reconcile us to him by knowing who Jesus is and believing in him.This brings us back into a fellowship with God that we last enjoyed when Adam and Eve walked and talked with God in the garden of Eden in the cool of the day (Genesis 3).When we accept Jesus, it is not an act of works on our part. We just receive God's gift of what Jesus won on the cross. This is why we are saved by faith through grace. He offers this same gift to everyone, knowin full well that not all will receive it. Yet he offers it anyway because he loves us that much. Even our willful disobedience cannot change his nature which is to love us despite of ourselves and our actions.My favorite Bible verse is Romans 5 :8 because it sums up God's love, grace and desire for us.Romans 5; 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.Would you die for someone who was bad and weak, who hurt himself and others? Would you sacrifice yourself even for a good person? God would. He died because it is the desire of his heart to fellowship with us.Blessings,Dunamite(P.S. I can't speak for the doctrine of various churches, including the R.C.C., but lots of time the reasons have nothing to do with the Bible. Rather they have to do with perceived threats to keep people going to their church. They threaten fire and brimstone and promise doom and gloom if you do not line up with their thinking. Sometimes in order to differentiate themselves they will wander from the path. Sometimes history comes into play.)
Ok fine, you want my position? I think it's absolutely bogus to think that all you need to do is have faith in Jesus Christ because of an altar call you made on a particular Sunday to get to Heaven. Catholics don't believe you only have to have faith to be saved. Catholics also don't believe that you can get to Heaven just by your works (although I could make a much stronger argument for salvation through works rather than faith alone). It's not an either/or for us. It's a both/and for us. It's faith PLUS works. You have to PROVE you are saved by the grace of God. So again I ask, where does it say Faith Alone in the Bible in order to be saved? You wanted me to cut to the chase? Your wish is granted......
You are right in some respects. James questions faith alone. In other words talk is cheap. That does not mean that you are not saved by grace. James 2: 14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?Many people twist James' words to mean that he is saying that we are saved by works. Rather he is saying that sincere faith shows itself in a changed character and in our actions.Many people are troubled by thinking that their are measures of faith. That would certainly be true if it was up to us. Fortunately it isn't. It is God who knows our heart. He knows whether any profession of faith is sincere. It is all or nothing, not a question of degree.Jesus tells us that not all who go by his name are his. He says that his sheep know his voice and he knows them. Furthermore he promises that no one that the Father gives to him will be lost.John 10: 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."We can be assured once we sincerely repent that we will be saved and that we will never lose that salvation. I can see all the people opposing, once saved, always saved, getting out their concordances, but wait.John deals with this in 1 John 2: 18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.In other words, you cannot lose what you never really had. Most people on both sides of the once saved always saved (OSAS) debate are talking at cross purposes.My feeling is that churches are full of people who do not belong to Christ. As I once heard, "Going to church does not make you a Christian anymore than going into a garage makes you a car." Many people who go to church go there for the wrong reasons and motive is everything. They go because they have always done so, or because their family goes. We do not become Christians by association. I once read a quote saying that a knife in the hand of assassin and a surgeon is the same, but what makes the results different is the motive or heart of the user. An assassin can kill with the same knife that the surgeon uses to save.It all comes down to heart. The Holy Spirit knows our heart. He knows whether any confession of faith is sincere. You also know your own heart. You know whether you truly believe. That should be enough for you.To bear the fruit that James wants we have to allow God to work in us and through us. Then we will show others Christ's love and character.After my brother became a Christian, I challenged him for still smoking and swearing. He teared up and said that I did not know how far he had come. I was the one who made the mistake of judging his heart based on outward appearances and I will always remember it. On the other hand, we also make the mistake when we judge those who go to church as being saved by appearances. We cannot assume that those who we hold dear are saved simply by outward appearances.My dad calls many people in his church programmed Christians. They do all of the right things and say all of the right things, but they do not have any love for others in their heart. He says that they know who Jesus is and can tell all about him, but they don't ever seem to have actually met him. I think this is where he and James see eye to eye.Becoming a Christian is so easy that most people cannot believe it is so simple. They think that there has to be more to it. They complicate things. Churches are people and people are flawed at the most fundamental level. Institutionalized churches are worse still because they have bureaucratized things and make rules, even where none exist. This again goes back to the heart of man. Many people turn to Islam or Judaism because they want rules. It gives them a comfort level. Christianity is alone among all religions in that it is based on relationship. Paul says that we are God's masterpiece. We are his love child. He made us because of his nature, love. He wants us to love him of our own free will and to walk with him. He desires our fellowship.We are made in his image. We need love more than food or water. Without love people have no hope. Prisoners of war keep themselves alive under the most trying circumstances by keeping in their mind someone they love. Without a reason to survive they give up and just slip away into despair and death. Take away love and we have nothing. We are born with this need.God gave us free will which was problematic from the beginning because God wanted love to be freely given. He did this because he knows that love cannot be forced on us. And the rest is history. We fell from grace and went our own way, cutting us off from God. But he never stopped loving us and desiring our fellowship. It is his nature and it is ours, to love.Jesus was God's response. God had to show us how much he cared. So he came in the person of Jesus Christ. This was planned all along because God foresaw our fall and was willing to bear the separation from his creation that he loved so much, because he knew that we would be reconciled to him. But he had to take that step because we were incapable. Think of how painful it would be to watch your child damage himself and others. Our self destructive behavior must hurt God very deeply.It is all about relationship and love. It is very simple. We acknowledge who God is and recognize him as our creator and Father. The only way to do this is by knowing what God did to reconcile us to him by knowing who Jesus is and believing in him.This brings us back into a fellowship with God that we last enjoyed when Adam and Eve walked and talked with God in the garden of Eden in the cool of the day (Genesis 3).When we accept Jesus, it is not an act of works on our part. We just receive God's gift of what Jesus won on the cross. This is why we are saved by faith through grace. He offers this same gift to everyone, knowin full well that not all will receive it. Yet he offers it anyway because he loves us that much. Even our willful disobedience cannot change his nature which is to love us despite of ourselves and our actions.My favorite Bible verse is Romans 5 :8 because it sums up God's love, grace and desire for us.Romans 5; 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.Would you die for someone who was bad and weak, who hurt himself and others? Would you sacrifice yourself even for a good person? God would. He died because it is the desire of his heart to fellowship with us.Blessings,Dunamite(P.S. I can't speak for the doctrine of various churches, including the R.C.C., but lots of time the reasons have nothing to do with the Bible. Rather they have to do with perceived threats to keep people going to their church. They threaten fire and brimstone and promise doom and gloom if you do not line up with their thinking. Sometimes in order to differentiate themselves they will wander from the path. Sometimes history comes into play.)
(thesuperjag;23570)
And this is what Lucy wants us to do. I think it is quite pointless to argue against an evil spirit...the spirits of the antichrists.Get thee behind me, Satan, thou art an offense to me. Thou savourest the things not of God, but of men.
So you can't answer "Lucifer's" question SuperJag? Prove to me that you are saved by grace. You're not scared of the devil are you (since apparently that's me)?
And this is what Lucy wants us to do. I think it is quite pointless to argue against an evil spirit...the spirits of the antichrists.Get thee behind me, Satan, thou art an offense to me. Thou savourest the things not of God, but of men.
So you can't answer "Lucifer's" question SuperJag? Prove to me that you are saved by grace. You're not scared of the devil are you (since apparently that's me)?
(Dunamite;23573)
(goldy;23551)
Ok fine, you want my position? I think it's absolutely bogus to think that all you need to do is have faith in Jesus Christ because of an altar call you made on a particular Sunday to get to Heaven. Catholics don't believe you only have to have faith to be saved. Catholics also don't believe that you can get to Heaven just by your works (although I could make a much stronger argument for salvation through works rather than faith alone). It's not an either/or for us. It's a both/and for us. It's faith PLUS works. You have to PROVE you are saved by the grace of God. So again I ask, where does it say Faith Alone in the Bible in order to be saved? You wanted me to cut to the chase? Your wish is granted......
You are right in some respects. James questions faith alone. In other words talk is cheap. That does not mean that you are not saved by grace.James 2: 14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?Many people twist James' words to mean that he is saying that we are saved by works. Rather he is saying that sincere faith shows itself in a changed character and in our actions.Many people are troubled by thinking that their are measures of faith. That would certainly be true if it was up to us. Fortunately it isn't. It is God who knows our heart. He knows whether any profession of faith is sincere. It is all or nothing, not a question of degree.Jesus tells us that not all who go by his name are his. He says that his sheep know his voice and he knows them. Furthermore he promises that no one that the Father gives to him will be lost.John 10: 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."We can be assured once we sincerely repent that we will be saved and that we will never lose that salvation. I can see all the people opposing, once saved, always saved, getting out their concordances, but wait.John deals with this in 1 John 2: 18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.In other words, you cannot lose what you never really had. Most people on both sides of the once saved always saved (OSAS) debate are talking at cross purposes.My feeling is that churches are full of people who do not belong to Christ. As I once heard, "Going to church does not make you a Christian anymore than going into a garage makes you a car."Many people who go to church go there for the wrong reasons and motive is everything. They go because they have always done so, or because their family goes. We do not become Christians by association.I once read a quote saying that a knife in the hand of assassin and a surgeon is the same, but what makes the results different is the motive or heart of the user. An assassin can kill with the same knife that the surgeon uses to save.It all comes down to heart. The Holy Spirit knows our heart. He knows whether any confession of faith is sincere. You also know your own heart. You know whether you truly believe. That should be enough for you.To bear the fruit that James wants we have to allow God to work in us and through us. Then we will show others Christ's love and character.After my brother became a Christian, I challenged him for still smoking and swearing. He teared up and said that I did not know how far he had come. I was the one who made the mistake of judging his heart based on outward appearances and I will always remember it. On the other hand, we also make the mistake when we judge those who go to church as being saved by appearances. We cannot assume that those who we hold dear are saved simply by outward appearances.My dad calls many people in his church programmed Christians. They do all of the right things and say all of the right things, but they do not have any love for others in their heart. He says that they know who Jesus is and can tell all about him, but they don't ever seem to have actually met him. I think this is where he and James see eye to eye.Becoming a Christian is so easy that most people cannot believe it is so simple. They think that there has to be more to it. They complicate things.Churches are people and people are flawed at the most fundamental level. Institutionalized churches are worse still because they have bureaucratized things and make rules, even where none exist. This again goes back to the heart of man. Many people turn to Islam or Judaism because they want rules. It gives them a comfort level.Christianity is alone among all religions in that it is based on relationship. Paul says that we are God's masterpiece. We are his love child. He made us because of his nature, love. He wants us to love him of our own free will and to walk with him. He desires our fellowship.We are made in his image. We need love more than food or water. Without love people have no hope. Prisoners of war keep themselves alive under the most trying circumstances by keeping in their mind someone they love. Without a reason to survive they give up and just slip away into despair and death. Take away love and we have nothing. We are born with this need.God gave us free will which was problematic from the beginning because God wanted love to be freely given. He did this because he knows that love cannot be forced on us. And the rest is history. We fell from grace and went our own way, cutting us off from God. But he never stopped loving us and desiring our fellowship. It is his nature and it is ours, to love.Jesus was God's response. God had to show us how much he cared. So he came in the person of Jesus Christ. This was planned all along because God foresaw our fall and was willing to bear the separation from his creation that he loved so much, because he knew that we would be reconciled to him. But he had to take that step because we were incapable. Think of how painful it would be to watch your child damage himself and others. Our self destructive behavior must hurt God very deeply.It is all about relationship and love. It is very simple. We acknowledge who God is and recognize him as our creator and Father. The only way to do this is by knowing what God did to reconcile us to him by knowing who Jesus is and believing in him.This brings us back into a fellowship with God that we last enjoyed when Adam and Eve walked and talked with God in the garden of Eden in the cool of the day (Genesis 3).When we accept Jesus, it is not an act of works on our part. We just receive God's gift of what Jesus won on the cross. This is why we are saved by faith through grace. He offers this same gift to everyone, knowin full well that not all will receive it. Yet he offers it anyway because he loves us that much. Even our willful disobedience cannot change his nature which is to love us despite of ourselves and our actions.My favorite Bible verse is Romans 5 :8 because it sums up God's love, grace and desire for us.Romans 5; 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.Would you die for someone who was bad and weak, who hurt himself and others? Would you sacrifice yourself even for a good person? God would. He died because it is the desire of his heart to fellowship with us.Blessings,DunamiteNice post you have there Dunamite. Yes, talk is cheap. Everybody can claim that they call themselves Christians. The question is, Are they of this world? or of God? Talk is cheap. Study is so much more worth it.JagLovest ye in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
(goldy;23551)
Ok fine, you want my position? I think it's absolutely bogus to think that all you need to do is have faith in Jesus Christ because of an altar call you made on a particular Sunday to get to Heaven. Catholics don't believe you only have to have faith to be saved. Catholics also don't believe that you can get to Heaven just by your works (although I could make a much stronger argument for salvation through works rather than faith alone). It's not an either/or for us. It's a both/and for us. It's faith PLUS works. You have to PROVE you are saved by the grace of God. So again I ask, where does it say Faith Alone in the Bible in order to be saved? You wanted me to cut to the chase? Your wish is granted......
You are right in some respects. James questions faith alone. In other words talk is cheap. That does not mean that you are not saved by grace.James 2: 14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?Many people twist James' words to mean that he is saying that we are saved by works. Rather he is saying that sincere faith shows itself in a changed character and in our actions.Many people are troubled by thinking that their are measures of faith. That would certainly be true if it was up to us. Fortunately it isn't. It is God who knows our heart. He knows whether any profession of faith is sincere. It is all or nothing, not a question of degree.Jesus tells us that not all who go by his name are his. He says that his sheep know his voice and he knows them. Furthermore he promises that no one that the Father gives to him will be lost.John 10: 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."We can be assured once we sincerely repent that we will be saved and that we will never lose that salvation. I can see all the people opposing, once saved, always saved, getting out their concordances, but wait.John deals with this in 1 John 2: 18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.In other words, you cannot lose what you never really had. Most people on both sides of the once saved always saved (OSAS) debate are talking at cross purposes.My feeling is that churches are full of people who do not belong to Christ. As I once heard, "Going to church does not make you a Christian anymore than going into a garage makes you a car."Many people who go to church go there for the wrong reasons and motive is everything. They go because they have always done so, or because their family goes. We do not become Christians by association.I once read a quote saying that a knife in the hand of assassin and a surgeon is the same, but what makes the results different is the motive or heart of the user. An assassin can kill with the same knife that the surgeon uses to save.It all comes down to heart. The Holy Spirit knows our heart. He knows whether any confession of faith is sincere. You also know your own heart. You know whether you truly believe. That should be enough for you.To bear the fruit that James wants we have to allow God to work in us and through us. Then we will show others Christ's love and character.After my brother became a Christian, I challenged him for still smoking and swearing. He teared up and said that I did not know how far he had come. I was the one who made the mistake of judging his heart based on outward appearances and I will always remember it. On the other hand, we also make the mistake when we judge those who go to church as being saved by appearances. We cannot assume that those who we hold dear are saved simply by outward appearances.My dad calls many people in his church programmed Christians. They do all of the right things and say all of the right things, but they do not have any love for others in their heart. He says that they know who Jesus is and can tell all about him, but they don't ever seem to have actually met him. I think this is where he and James see eye to eye.Becoming a Christian is so easy that most people cannot believe it is so simple. They think that there has to be more to it. They complicate things.Churches are people and people are flawed at the most fundamental level. Institutionalized churches are worse still because they have bureaucratized things and make rules, even where none exist. This again goes back to the heart of man. Many people turn to Islam or Judaism because they want rules. It gives them a comfort level.Christianity is alone among all religions in that it is based on relationship. Paul says that we are God's masterpiece. We are his love child. He made us because of his nature, love. He wants us to love him of our own free will and to walk with him. He desires our fellowship.We are made in his image. We need love more than food or water. Without love people have no hope. Prisoners of war keep themselves alive under the most trying circumstances by keeping in their mind someone they love. Without a reason to survive they give up and just slip away into despair and death. Take away love and we have nothing. We are born with this need.God gave us free will which was problematic from the beginning because God wanted love to be freely given. He did this because he knows that love cannot be forced on us. And the rest is history. We fell from grace and went our own way, cutting us off from God. But he never stopped loving us and desiring our fellowship. It is his nature and it is ours, to love.Jesus was God's response. God had to show us how much he cared. So he came in the person of Jesus Christ. This was planned all along because God foresaw our fall and was willing to bear the separation from his creation that he loved so much, because he knew that we would be reconciled to him. But he had to take that step because we were incapable. Think of how painful it would be to watch your child damage himself and others. Our self destructive behavior must hurt God very deeply.It is all about relationship and love. It is very simple. We acknowledge who God is and recognize him as our creator and Father. The only way to do this is by knowing what God did to reconcile us to him by knowing who Jesus is and believing in him.This brings us back into a fellowship with God that we last enjoyed when Adam and Eve walked and talked with God in the garden of Eden in the cool of the day (Genesis 3).When we accept Jesus, it is not an act of works on our part. We just receive God's gift of what Jesus won on the cross. This is why we are saved by faith through grace. He offers this same gift to everyone, knowin full well that not all will receive it. Yet he offers it anyway because he loves us that much. Even our willful disobedience cannot change his nature which is to love us despite of ourselves and our actions.My favorite Bible verse is Romans 5 :8 because it sums up God's love, grace and desire for us.Romans 5; 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.Would you die for someone who was bad and weak, who hurt himself and others? Would you sacrifice yourself even for a good person? God would. He died because it is the desire of his heart to fellowship with us.Blessings,DunamiteNice post you have there Dunamite. Yes, talk is cheap. Everybody can claim that they call themselves Christians. The question is, Are they of this world? or of God? Talk is cheap. Study is so much more worth it.JagLovest ye in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
tim_from_pa
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- Jul 11, 2007
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So again I ask, where does it say Faith Alone in the Bible in order to be saved? You wanted me to cut to the chase? Your wish is granted......
Goldy:I think the definition of faith here is what is really coming into question. WE are saved solely by faith. But what is faith? Too many people equate faith with merely "belief". I believe an airplane can get me from point A to point B, but that does not mean that I have faith that it will get me to point A to point B. The faith is demonstrated when I board the aircraft. In that respect, I did "works" to get onto that plane. And I think that is what you are driving at. However, that being said, my works came as a result of that faith, and is automatic. I did not have to show the works and then the faith resulted. This becomes a chicken and egg debate then. It is solely faith, but the faith came first resulting in obedience (works). In the OT Law, however, the works of the Law never saved anyone because it was not done in faith as Paul demonstrated. Many so-called Christians do not have an outward demonstration of their "faith" and therefore do not have true faith. If they'd have faith, it would affect their character, considering that is the very character of faith according to the Bible.My wife once said to me that I did not have faith in airplanes because I was afraid to fly. I told her that despite my feelings and actions, that I did have faith in airplanes. I got on board, didn't I? That's the true test of the faith, and because of the faith that I did what I did. I did not board to show I had faith; that's a reversal of reasoning. (Now I do mind flying any more
)
Goldy:I think the definition of faith here is what is really coming into question. WE are saved solely by faith. But what is faith? Too many people equate faith with merely "belief". I believe an airplane can get me from point A to point B, but that does not mean that I have faith that it will get me to point A to point B. The faith is demonstrated when I board the aircraft. In that respect, I did "works" to get onto that plane. And I think that is what you are driving at. However, that being said, my works came as a result of that faith, and is automatic. I did not have to show the works and then the faith resulted. This becomes a chicken and egg debate then. It is solely faith, but the faith came first resulting in obedience (works). In the OT Law, however, the works of the Law never saved anyone because it was not done in faith as Paul demonstrated. Many so-called Christians do not have an outward demonstration of their "faith" and therefore do not have true faith. If they'd have faith, it would affect their character, considering that is the very character of faith according to the Bible.My wife once said to me that I did not have faith in airplanes because I was afraid to fly. I told her that despite my feelings and actions, that I did have faith in airplanes. I got on board, didn't I? That's the true test of the faith, and because of the faith that I did what I did. I did not board to show I had faith; that's a reversal of reasoning. (Now I do mind flying any more
(tim_from_pa;23583)
Goldy:I think the definition of faith here is what is really coming into question. WE are saved solely by faith. But what is faith? Too many people equate faith with merely "belief". I believe an airplane can get me from point A to point B, but that does not mean that I have faith that it will get me to point A to point B. The faith is demonstrated when I board the aircraft. In that respect, I did "works" to get onto that plane. And I think that is what you are driving at. However, that being said, my works came as a result of that faith, and is automatic. I did not have to show the works and then the faith resulted. This becomes a chicken and egg debate then. It is solely faith, but the faith came first resulting in obedience (works). In the OT Law, however, the works of the Law never saved anyone because it was not done in faith as Paul demonstrated. Many so-called Christians do not have an outward demonstration of their "faith" and therefore do not have true faith. If they'd have faith, it would affect their character, considering that is the very character of faith according to the Bible.My wife once said to me that I did not have faith in airplanes because I was afraid to fly. I told her that despite my feelings and actions, that I did have faith in airplanes. I got on board, didn't I? That's the true test of the faith, and because of the faith that I did what I did. I did not board to show I had faith; that's a reversal of reasoning. (Now I do mind flying any more
)
I think this is a very good post......thank you. Can I give another analogy to show why I think works are also important? Here goes: I've been married to my wife for eight years. I love her very much, and I tell her that all the time. But I need to "prove" to her that I love her. I have to LIVE my marriage vows. It isn't just a one time thing that I did the day I got married. This is where works come in. Now we all know that people commit adultery everyday.........why? After all, they made their vows before God in front of family and friends (I might compare this to an alter call). So why would a spouse cheat? I don't think people get married so they can cheat on each other. My feeling is that a couple got married thinking in their heart that they were in love with one another. What I'm getting at is that to be a Christian, it takes work. We have to prove our love for Christ by what WE DO. I agree......talk is cheap. And this is why I love my Catholic faith so much. The Church is my "spiritual drill sargeant". To be Catholic, you can't be a puss. The Church challenges me in all aspects of my life, I'm more disciplined, I'm a stronger man. In today's world, you can't be a good Christian and be whimpy. Lord knows we have plenty of them out there already!!
Goldy:I think the definition of faith here is what is really coming into question. WE are saved solely by faith. But what is faith? Too many people equate faith with merely "belief". I believe an airplane can get me from point A to point B, but that does not mean that I have faith that it will get me to point A to point B. The faith is demonstrated when I board the aircraft. In that respect, I did "works" to get onto that plane. And I think that is what you are driving at. However, that being said, my works came as a result of that faith, and is automatic. I did not have to show the works and then the faith resulted. This becomes a chicken and egg debate then. It is solely faith, but the faith came first resulting in obedience (works). In the OT Law, however, the works of the Law never saved anyone because it was not done in faith as Paul demonstrated. Many so-called Christians do not have an outward demonstration of their "faith" and therefore do not have true faith. If they'd have faith, it would affect their character, considering that is the very character of faith according to the Bible.My wife once said to me that I did not have faith in airplanes because I was afraid to fly. I told her that despite my feelings and actions, that I did have faith in airplanes. I got on board, didn't I? That's the true test of the faith, and because of the faith that I did what I did. I did not board to show I had faith; that's a reversal of reasoning. (Now I do mind flying any more
I think this is a very good post......thank you. Can I give another analogy to show why I think works are also important? Here goes: I've been married to my wife for eight years. I love her very much, and I tell her that all the time. But I need to "prove" to her that I love her. I have to LIVE my marriage vows. It isn't just a one time thing that I did the day I got married. This is where works come in. Now we all know that people commit adultery everyday.........why? After all, they made their vows before God in front of family and friends (I might compare this to an alter call). So why would a spouse cheat? I don't think people get married so they can cheat on each other. My feeling is that a couple got married thinking in their heart that they were in love with one another. What I'm getting at is that to be a Christian, it takes work. We have to prove our love for Christ by what WE DO. I agree......talk is cheap. And this is why I love my Catholic faith so much. The Church is my "spiritual drill sargeant". To be Catholic, you can't be a puss. The Church challenges me in all aspects of my life, I'm more disciplined, I'm a stronger man. In today's world, you can't be a good Christian and be whimpy. Lord knows we have plenty of them out there already!!
tim_from_pa
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- Jul 11, 2007
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I think this is a very good post......thank you. Can I give another analogy to show why I think works are also important? Here goes: I've been married to my wife for eight years. I love her very much, and I tell her that all the time. But I need to "prove" to her that I love her. I have to LIVE my marriage vows. It isn't just a one time thing that I did the day I got married. This is where works come in. Now we all know that people commit adultery everyday.........why? After all, they made their vows before God in front of family and friends (I might compare this to an alter call). So why would a spouse cheat? I don't think people get married so they can cheat on each other. My feeling is that a couple got married thinking in their heart that they were in love with one another. What I'm getting at is that to be a Christian, it takes work. We have to prove our love for Christ by what WE DO. I agree......talk is cheap. And this is why I love my Catholic faith so much. The Church is my "spiritual drill sargeant". To be Catholic, you can't be a puss. The Church challenges me in all aspects of my life, I'm more disciplined, I'm a stronger man. In today's world, you can't be a good Christian and be whimpy. Lord knows we have plenty of them out there already!!
Agreed. Many Christians "take the vow" so-to-speak but do not live in a marriage with Christ. Just one thought, however. When you say "works", remember whose works we are talking about. That of the flesh or that of the Spirit? The works initiates with the Spirit because we are His. It comes out as naturally as a cat meowing. We can meow all we want, but are not really cats. But a cat does it by nature. As long as that distinction is maintained, everything will be OK.
Agreed. Many Christians "take the vow" so-to-speak but do not live in a marriage with Christ. Just one thought, however. When you say "works", remember whose works we are talking about. That of the flesh or that of the Spirit? The works initiates with the Spirit because we are His. It comes out as naturally as a cat meowing. We can meow all we want, but are not really cats. But a cat does it by nature. As long as that distinction is maintained, everything will be OK.
(goldy;23541)
Alright, I'm going to play devil's advocate. You say you are saved by grace, right? Well, I don't believe it. Prove to me that you are saved by grace.
I cant , if the Holy Spirit does not convince you of the truth of scripture, then I am helpless to prove anything to you , its like talking to a dead person..:naughty:
Alright, I'm going to play devil's advocate. You say you are saved by grace, right? Well, I don't believe it. Prove to me that you are saved by grace.
I cant , if the Holy Spirit does not convince you of the truth of scripture, then I am helpless to prove anything to you , its like talking to a dead person..:naughty:
Peoples biggest mistake is thinking that Gods elect are saved by doing something or meeting some conditions, but the truth of the matter is , that men cannot do anything to be saved, absolutely nothing.. Its all of God , as Jonah said , " Salvation is of The LORD"..Christ Jesus has met all the conditions for Gods fallen people. He has through his death reconciled all Gods elect back to God, he has forgiven them all sins and given them a absolute perfect righteousness , and God views the elect as perfect and sinless in his sight because of christ..Jesus christ has redeemed all his people from the curse of the law having been made a curse for them..
Mighty Bear
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(goldy;23530)
Could someone please direct me to the passage(s) that says we are saved by faith alone?
God is powerful, so if he delights in us,everything is possible."Blessed is the man against whom the Lord counts no iniquity,and in whose spirit there is no deceit." (Psalms 32:2)
Could someone please direct me to the passage(s) that says we are saved by faith alone?
God is powerful, so if he delights in us,everything is possible."Blessed is the man against whom the Lord counts no iniquity,and in whose spirit there is no deceit." (Psalms 32:2)
I was just reading this thread and want to ask a couple of quick questions.What exactly would the defiinition of "works" be according to Goldy's beliefs?What "works" specifically would be necessary to be saved based on the definition?
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