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Salvation depends on

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Beano, Mar 10, 2008.

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  1. waynemlj

    waynemlj New Member

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    Hi Catholic Crusader,This is the first time I have replied to one of your posts. It's nice to have the opportunity to discuss our faith and our understanding of the Word of God. We certainly must be students of the whole Bible, since the Bible teaches the meaning of the Bible.I'd like to respond to these words in you recent post:"The Bible makes it clear that Christians have a moral assurance of salvation (God will be true to his word and will grant salvation to those who have faith in Christ and are obedient to him [1 John 3:19-24]), but the Bible does NOT teach that Christians have a guarantee of heaven. There can be no absolute assurance of salvation. The Bible says, "See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness, otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22-23; Matt. 18:21-35, 1 Cor. 15:1-2, 2 Pet. 2:20-21). "1 Corinthians 15:1-2 Paul is simply supporting the Bible teaching of the resurrection. He is not saying anything about losing justification (salvation) once it has been effected in the soul by God. Romans 8:28-30, "And we know for those who love God all things work together according to his purpose. For those who he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those who he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."Sounds like a permanent salvation to me.Romans 11:22-23 that you have used here have both a positive and a negative connotation. Of course, we know that we are still sinners even though we are saved. Those verses simply describe God's dealings with us according to our determination to love Him with our whole heart or not. If we don't, he will chastise us to show us our sin and awaken us to the need to repent (turn away from that sinful habit). It does not mean we will lose our salvation. God is simply being a good Father.Matthew 18:21-35 is a parable intended by Jesus to show that we must take to ourselves the same spirit of forgiveness that we have so graciously received from the heart of God. It does not speak of losing our salvation either. It is saying that a truly forgiven heart will also be a truly forgiving heart. Jesus is teaching how complete our spirit of forgiveness must be.2 Peter 2:20-21 says that it is crucial to remain committed to what we have received. Any truly saved person would heartily agree with that. As Peter said in John 6:68, "Simon Peter answered him, 'Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.' " Peter is teaching and calling the Christian to a total change of heart in his lifestyle.I would like to leave you with John 10:28-29, "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of my Father's hand."I see in these words a predestined covenant between the Father and the Son made before the foundation of the world. His gift of salvation cannot fail and is completely guaranteed by the Sovereignty of our God.waynemlj
     
  2. waynemlj

    waynemlj New Member

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    Hi Catholic Crusader, There are 66 books in the Canon of Scripture. Most of the Evangelical Christian world does not accept the Apocryphal books, sometimes called the Deuterocanonical books, as legitimate books of the Bible. Only the Catholic Church includes those books.(39 books in the O.T and 27 books in the N.T.)waynemlj
     
  3. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    {quote}Sounds like a permanent salvation to me.I repeat there is NO DOCTRINE OF ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED there are Tares, Elect, and all the rest have free will as I have said you make a mockery out of God saying this earth age is a joke as all have already been choosen and danmed this is not biblical Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Mat 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Mat 7:24 ¶ Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
     
  4. forgivenWretch

    forgivenWretch New Member

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    God tells us our salvation is forever. Jesus only died ONCE for all sin! He is not an Indian giver! Not taking God at His word is the same as calling Him a liar. and I for one would not want to be the one come judgment day to have to answer for doing so.The day I accepted Jesus as my Lord and savior, He guaranteed my salvation and anyone who disagrees IMHO is calling God a liar, plain and simple. I have absolutely, positively, unconditionally, no doubt that I can nor will ever loose my salvation and it breaks my heart that ANYONE lacks the faith to believe what Jesus did that day He hung on that tree.I am so saddened that you (general) have doubts that we will never meet in heaven. I AM SAVED NOW AND FOREVER, ONCE AND FOR ALL!!! Don't like the shouting? Get over it, because God loves my praises fro what He did for me!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  5. Abdul Dawood

    Abdul Dawood New Member

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    This discussion reminded me of these verses:John 10:28-29I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.There you go.
     
  6. forgivenWretch

    forgivenWretch New Member

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    (Abdul Dawood;41199)
    This discussion reminded me of these verses:John 10:28-29I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.There you go.
    AMEN!!
     
  7. waynemlj

    waynemlj New Member

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    Hi forgivenWretch,Your words: "Indian giver."Be careful not to make racial slurs. I'm sure you didn't mean it as such. But you never know how that might affect someone reading your message.The point of your post was right on, in my opinion. I enjoyed reading it.waynemlj
     
  8. waynemlj

    waynemlj New Member

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    Hi kriss,There are many evidences in Scripture that show us that salvation is permanent.John 10:28-29, "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."That's a guarantee from the lips of our Savior, Jesus Christ, that salvation is permanent . . . or as some like to say, 'Once saved, always saved.' " It's just two ways of saying the same thing.Take a few moments and read all of John 17. Can you even imagine that that prayer from Jesus to the Father would be denied?waynemlj
     
  9. waynemlj

    waynemlj New Member

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    Hi Shan Missions,The type of people you are describing in your Reply were never saved in the first place. They are lost in themselves to such an extent that they think that they can just add religion to the rest of their possessions and all is fine.It's the same outward show that the Phaisees of Jesus' day were guilty of. They saw religion as external. Jesus came to destroy that notion and to teach that the important truth is internal. Matthew 5:27-28, "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart."People may be able to fool other people by putting on a good show outwardly, but they don't fool God (who sees their hearts) for one minute!waynemlj
     
  10. waynemlj

    waynemlj New Member

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    Hi kriss,You have included some important quotes that are a call to true faith. I don't see in any of them the idea that we can lose our justification (our salvation). John 10:28-29, "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of my Father's hand."That is sure a powerful word from the lips of Jesus that assures me that once you and I have been saved (by the regeneration of the Holy Spirit and God's gift of faith to believe) we are saved. Romans 8:1, "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."These Scriptures are God's guarantee that what He did for us on the cross was perfect and finished . . . forever!waynemlj
     
  11. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Forgivenwretch and Abdul dont be sucked into Waynes false doctrine he is leading you down a primrose path that is not biblical he believes that even if you go worship Satan and the tell God he is a fake you are still saved, He believes all babies born are evil He believes God has already choosen who is saved and even if you Accept Christ and live a Godly life if God didnt pre chose you your damned any way he can he will try to confuse this doctrine by twisting scrpture and making it sound Holy that is how all false doctrine works it sounds right tell you get to the bottom of it. Wayne I am sure you are a very nice man that thinks you doing Gods work and Im not against you personally but I will fight this false doctrine of yours that is mockery to God on every post you make about it Grace in its very description is offered to All Christ died For All. no where does it say if you understand Gods plan that he died and offers grace only to the few he already choose.And the rest are already lost and they dont matter any way
     
  12. Abdul Dawood

    Abdul Dawood New Member

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    Hallo kriss,I am not sure why you think I am being sucked into anyone's doctrine, as I merely quoted some verses. I only follow what the scriptures tell me I am to follow and ask God for discernment that I may not be led astray. The only thing I was trying to show with the verses that I quoted was that once we are saved and are in the hand of God, nobody can snatch us away. This is quite clearly shown within the verses quoted. If you would like to discuss this topic more, I would like to point you to here: http://www.christianityboard.com/can-chris...tion-t6274.htmlwhere this topic has been addressed in a very interesting manner by various people.Have fun!
     
  13. His By Grace

    His By Grace New Member

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    Here we go again. This has already been addressed in another thread, but must be the "hot" topic of the month or something. I REALLY wish my family would quit saying things aren't Biblical when we can take different scriptures and support our beliefs from both sides, actually. I personally believe in eternal security of the believer, which is the more modern phrasing for OSAS. You can probably google Charles Stanley's book called this and see what we really believe. We DO NOT think we can just do any old thing we want because God's grace covers us. We do not take sin lightly. We are most appreciative of the wonderful gift of salvation through faith and grace that we could not EARN, but can only have through what Jesus did on the cross. We serve out of love because we know our works will not save us. We work because we want to earn our crowns to lay at Jesus' feet. That's the general concensus for those who are serious about their salvation in my particular chosen faith. The word "salvation" has several applications. There is the initial salvation you have which is when you are born again. That is when you ask Christ to come into your heart and you receive eternal life and you are a new person- the second birth (first one being physical, second one-spiritual; see John 3:3-6). Another aspect of salvation is the sustaining aspect. It is the actual relationship that confirms you are a true believer (see Mark 4:3-20; Colossians 3; John 14 and many others). Our completed salvation will only take place when He comes again to receive us unto Himself (1 Peter 3:1-9). We will know Jesus and be fully known by Him for we will be just like Him (1 Corinthians 13:12; 1 John 3: 1-3). We will receive our promised inheritance as adopted sons and daughters of the King! Based on God's promises, I am saved to the uttermost (Hebrews 7:25)as Jesus intercedes for me just like He prayed for Peter that his faith would not fail (Luke 22: 31,32). This is the way I see salvation, but it does not offend me if someone else views it differently than me. But, please, do not accuse me of having false doctrine or taking God's grace as a cheap gift. Yes, it is free, but it isn't cheap. It cost Christ everything; more than I could possible know with my small human mind. All I can say is thank you, Lord!
     
  14. watksco

    watksco New Member

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    (Shan Missions;40673)
    I don't agree. There are some people who said that they believed Jesus Christ and took water baptism and became members of the church. But later thet committed sins again and again and even worshiped other gods and finally died in sins. How can such people go to heaven? Matthew 7:21-29 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' NIV
    Jesus is talking here about the intent behind people who claim to know God. I read this as saying that not everyone who says the sinners prayer and attends a church is saved. This passage, in it's context, is actually a call to social justice and looking after one another. It is also a passage where it can be argued that Jesus alludes to slavation coming thru the way you treat others and not because you simply said the sinners prayer at some time in your life.
     
  15. Beano

    Beano New Member

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    If christians cant loose there salvation can someone explain to me the meaning behind Romans 11 particulary verses 21,22Kevin
     
  16. Richard_oti

    Richard_oti Well-Known Member

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    (Beano;42054)
    If christians cant loose there salvation can someone explain to me the meaning behind Romans 11 particulary verses 21,22
    Because it's talking about tree branches? I do realize your reply is serious in nature, and I also am of the same opinion.
     
  17. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Anyone can lose their salvation and there is no doctrine of predestination they are both one in the same doctrine Everyone is not predestined to heaven or Hell nor is anyone who falls away into iniquity guaranteed salvation That is Gods Word Its called free will its was given by God Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
     
  18. Richard_oti

    Richard_oti Well-Known Member

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    (kriss;42068)
    Anyone can lose their salvation
    Agreed. Or make a conscience decision to walk away. If we do make such a decision, will He not still call unto us and try to draw us back? IMO: Yes. However as having freewill, we may continue to walk away and remain in that state.(kriss)
    Its called free will its was given by God
    Well said.(kriss)
    Mat 7:22-23
    Point understood. And while you and I may see it, it will not be seen the same by all.Not intending to argue, for I agree with the viewpoint you have presented.
     
  19. waynemlj

    waynemlj New Member

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    Hi kriss,What really counts is that you love God "with all your heart and soul and mind and strength." I can see that you do. I praise God that you and I have a salvation that is kept for us in Jesus Christ "who intercedes for us continually." Romans 8:34,38 "Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died -- more than that, who was raised -- who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."We might also (so that you can see that I do not twist God's Truths) back up to Romans 8:29-30, "For those who he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."Here, I think, is another beautiful Scripture as we celebrate the Death and Resurrection of our Savior: 1 Peter 3-4, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God's power are being guarded through faith for salvation ready to be revealed at the last time."Praise and glory be to God, our salvation!waynemlj
     
  20. His By Grace

    His By Grace New Member

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    I think the difference in Romans 11: 21,22 can be found when comparing the parable of the sower. Why I say difference is that some hear the word of God and it means nothing to them. Some hear and receive it with joy, but they have no real root and when tribulation comes, they fall away (they never fully joined their lives with Christ; a lack of true commitment); like when the writer of Hebrews says "having tasted of the heavenly gift"-this to me says they didn't put their whole selves into it. I think we have people today that believe in Jesus with their heads, but take it no further. They do not wish to commit their lives to him. This is what separates the sheep from the goats. A true follower has submitted himself completely to the Lord. When you are reborn, it must be a total birth; not a partial birth. That is the difference.
     
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