Salvation Is Secure

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Grailhunter

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Salvation is secure

In our struggle against false beliefs like OSAS and Universalism and I guess I need to add Calvinism. The secure nature of salvation can be inaccurately portrayed and or perceived. The content of the discussions are that there is no “ticket” to Heaven or license to sin and that Christ does not reward evil or that you cannot play the Grace card to play Christ for a fool or that Heaven will not be full of evil people.

This is all true, of Belief, Truths, Facts….these are facts. There are those that say that salvation has nothing to do with YOU and there is nothing YOU can do to be saved….this is false and inaccurate. First off YOU have to choose to accept Christ as your Savior and believe in Him and have faith in Him. Without that salvation does not start. Then you repent and are Baptized and participate in the Bread and Wine ritual. The physical evidence that you are saved is change. YOU are changed. How YOU believe changes, how YOU look at things changes, how YOU conduct your life changes. This is actually what the Bible is talking about when it says repentance. You realize that what you have been doing, how YOU have been conducting your life was wrong. Repentance is not about penance or mourning over your past. It is a realization that YUCK! I was living like that!

Without this repentance, without this change, salvation does not start. If there is no change, there is no salvation. Sometimes people wonder if they are really Saved? Christianity is not a club that you sign up for and go on about your business living as you were. You are changed by salvation, if not salvation did not occur….So ask yourself, were you changed? That will answer your question about being saved.

What is that change? It is different for different people, it can be subtle or it can be drastic. And it all revolves around intent. Your intent to trust Christ and be good and do good for others. Now some people are going to be better at it than others, some are slow learners. But if they have an honest intent and put forth an honest effort, they are all saved the same. Christianity is a journey, a life, and in that journey YOU work out your salvation with fear and trembling. But as a whole, if YOUR intent is honest your salvation is secure.

Christ’s plan for salvation is not about perfection. If we could be perfect Christ would not have had to come and be sacrificed on the cross. God so loved the world….which means God loves us even though we are not perfect. Along the way we are going to fail and we are going to stumble.

We ask forgiveness and learn from our mistakes trying not to repeat the same ones. The most damning of sins are the ones that are lifestyle sins. Sins that are part of your life. Sins that define you like, homosexuality, drunkard, casual sex, etc. The Way, Christ’s way, Salvation, was designed to Save imperfect humans. And as humans we will make mistakes along the way, this is no surprise to Christ, but Christ expects us to learn from our mistakes.

And a Christian should know what constitutes a sin.....if they are not specifically and clearly listed in the Scriptures they are likely not sins….pay no mind to man-made sins….rather be concerned with sins listed in the Scriptures, you do not want to follow a religion that men made up.

And in our journey we will have good times and bad times. Sometimes our faith will be tested…is tested the right word? Sometime it can get so bad that our faith wavers. The lose of a loved one or horrible health or mental problems, pain, that we pray for help with, but get none. Why God? In which case the best advice I can give is to be honest with Christ. But you my not get a good answer in this life. And all this can cause you to do things you would not normally do, even sinful things. Even be mad at God.

The best advice I can give is do the best you can, in the end Christ will know what you went through and how hard you tried. Salvation is secure even in bad times, even when your faith wavers. And the reason I believe this is because Christ did not do all He did and go through all He went through, to find a reason to judge you to Hell.

If you are going through hard times, take a look at how Job reacted to it. Then on the other hand I do not subscribe to the notion that Christ gets any satisfaction from our suffering. Christ went through the passion and His body died on the cross and He resurrected and walked from the tomb. In the end He will resurrect you and all afflictions and sorrows will be gone and eternal happiness will be yours.
God Bless.
The Johnny Appleseed of Truth
 
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GEN2REV

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First off YOU have to choose to accept Christ as your Savior and believe in Him and have faith in Him. Without that salvation does not start.
Nobody chooses to be saved. God chooses who, and when, He saves.

"You have not chosen Me (Jesus), but I have chosen you and I have appointed you ..."
John 15:16
"No man can come to Me (Jesus) unless the Father draws them ..."
John 6:44

Faith is a gift, not a choice made by man.

".. by grace are ye saved through faith; and that (faith) not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: "
Eph. 2:8
" ... you, who by Him do believe in God, ..."
1 Pet. 1:20-21
"For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on Him, but also to suffer for His sake; "
Phil. 1:29
"To another (the gift of) faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;"
1 Cor. 12:9
"... faith which was once delivered unto the saints."
Jude 3
 

Grailhunter

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Nobody chooses to be saved. God chooses who, and when, He saves.

"You have not chosen Me (Jesus), but I have chosen you and I have appointed you ..."
John 15:16
"No man can come to Me (Jesus) unless the Father draws them ..."
John 6:44

Faith is a gift, not a choice made by man.

".. by grace are ye saved through faith; and that (faith) not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: "
Eph. 2:8
" ... you, who by Him do believe in God, ..."
1 Pet. 1:20-21
"For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on Him, but also to suffer for His sake; "
Phil. 1:29
"To another (the gift of) faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;"
1 Cor. 12:9
"... faith which was once delivered unto the saints."
Jude 3
Sounds a little Calvinist dude.

I'M A ROBOT CONTROLED BY A MONTEROIUS PUPPET MASTER!!!.....I BELIEVE IN CHRIST BECAUSE HE FORCES ME AND FAITH MEANS NOTHING BECAUSE IT IS NOT OF MY OWN!

No free-wlll to earth....you are under my total control.....reality is a stage for my show and I damn babies to hell for the fun of it!...sizzle ya little poop monsters. HA! HA! HA! Those I do not damn to hell are under my control and I force them to worship me! HA! HA! HA!

I AM THE ALMIGHTY PUPPET MASTER!
 
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GEN2REV

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Sounds a little Calvinist dude.

I'M A ROBOT CONTROLED BY A MONTEROIUS PUPPET MASTER!!!.....I BELIEVE IN CHRIST BECAUSE HE FORCES ME AND FAITH MEANS NOTHING BECAUSE IT IS NOT OF MY OWN!

No free-wlll to earth....you are under my total control.....reality is a stage for my show and I damn babies to hell for the fun of it!...sizzle ya little poop monsters. HA! HA! HA! Those I do not damn to hell are under my control and I force them to worship me! HA! HA! HA!

I AM THE ALMIGHTY PUPPET MASTER!
Since when does faith make us robots though?

If God gives us faith, that doesn't mean He takes away all our free will to think and act, does it?

It's just opening of the eyes.

Going from blind to sight doesn't cause one to then become an unthinking robot.

In fact, I think it's kind of part of God's test to see what we'll do with the faith He gives us. Will we use it to serve Him or conceal it and never speak of it out of a more weighty love of the world and man's opinions of us?
 

Grailhunter

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Since when does faith make us robots though?
That is the point. Faith requires free-will. Robots do not have free-will.
If God gives us faith, that doesn't mean He takes away all our free will to think and act, does it?
You can't give faith. According to John Calvin a robot is commanded to believe.

In fact, I think it's kind of part of God's test to see what we'll do with the faith He gives us.
A test would require free-will.

The Christians on this forum have had to struggle a lot against the satanic teachings of John Calvin. There are a few threads if you want to relive it. Satanic...not sure if that is right.....I don't think even Satan would be that stupid.
 

Wynona

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Salvation is secure

In our struggle against false beliefs like OSAS and Universalism and I guess I need to add Calvinism. The secure nature of salvation can be inaccurately portrayed and or perceived. The content of the discussions are that there is no “ticket” to Heaven or license to sin and that Christ does not reward evil or that you cannot play the Grace card to play Christ for a fool or that Heaven will not be full of evil people.

This is all true, of Belief, Truths, Facts….these are facts. There are those that say that salvation has nothing to do with YOU and there is nothing YOU can do to be saved….this is false and inaccurate. First off YOU have to choose to accept Christ as your Savior and believe in Him and have faith in Him. Without that salvation does not start. Then you repent and are Baptized and participate in the Bread and Wine ritual. The physical evidence that you are saved is change. YOU are changed. How YOU believe changes, how YOU look at things changes, how YOU conduct your life changes. This is actually what the Bible is talking about when it says repentance. You realize that what you have been doing, how YOU have been conducting your life was wrong.

Without this repentance, without this change, salvation does not start. If there is no change, there is no salvation. Sometimes people wonder if they are really Saved? Christianity is not a club that you sign up for and go on about your business living as you were. You are changed by salvation, if not salvation did not occur….So ask yourself, were you changed? That will answer your question about being saved.

What is that change? It is different for different people, it can be subtle or it can be drastic. And it all revolves around intent. Your intent to trust Christ and be good and do good for others. Now some people are going to be better at it than others, some are slow learners. But if they have an honest intent and put forth an honest effort, they are all saved the same. Christianity is a journey, a life, and in that journey YOU work out your salvation with fear and trembling. But as a whole, if YOUR intent is honest your salvation is secure.

Christ’s plan for salvation is not about perfection. If we could be perfect Christ would not have had to come and be sacrificed on the cross. God so loved the world….which means God loves us even though we are not perfect. Along the way we are going to fail and we are going to stumble.

We ask forgiveness and learn from our mistakes trying not to repeat the same ones. The most damning of sins are the ones that are lifestyle sins. Sins that are part of your life. Sins that define you like, homosexuality, drunkard, casual sex, etc. The Way, Christ’s way, Salvation, was designed to Save imperfect humans. And as humans we will make mistakes along the way, this is no surprise to Christ, but Christ expects us to learn from our mistakes.

And a Christian should know what constitutes a sin.....if they are not specifically and clearly listed in the Scriptures they are likely not sins….pay no mind to man-made sins….rather be concerned with sins listed in the Scriptures, you do not want to follow a religion that men made up.

And in our journey we will have good times and bad times. Sometimes our faith will be tested…is tested the right word? Sometime it can get so bad that our faith wavers. The lose of a loved one or horrible health or mental problems, pain, that we pray for help with, but get none. Why God? In which case the best advice I can give is to be honest with Christ. But you my not get a good answer in this life. And all this can cause you to do things you would not normally do, even sinful things. Even be mad at God.

The best advice I can give is do the best you can, in the end Christ will know what you went through and how hard you tried. Salvation is secure even in bad times, even when your faith wavers. And the reason I believe this is because Christ did not do all He did and go through all He went through, to find a reason to judge you to Hell.

If you are going through hard times, take a look at how Job reacted to it. Then on the other hand I do not subscribe to the notion that Christ gets any satisfaction from our suffering. Christ went through the passion and His body died on the cross and He resurrected and walked from the tomb. In the end He will resurrect you.
Sounds like the voice of reason to me :)
 

Grailhunter

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Well, I'm not a Calvinist and, according to God Almighty, faith is a gift.
I am Kool with you not being a Calvinist, you just believe like Calvinists....is there a difference?
All that Christ did for us gave us a reason for faith.....Still if it is not our choice, it is not our faith and is no credit to us or means anything to Him. It goes back to programming robots.....
YOU ARE PROGRAMMED TO BELIEVE IN ME AND LOVE ME, AND HAVE FAITH IN ME AND WORSHIP ME WITH ALL YOUR HEART! YOU HAVE NO CHOICE!

We have the free-will to choose Christ. Without free-will nothing really matters....just a bunch of puppets in a very boring puppet show. Not real love for God, not real faith in God. What good is love and faith and worship to God, if He forced it on us.

Beyond that, this belief portrays God as a merciless monster that is nothing but a puppet master. A religion designed to insult God. Again even Satan would not be so stupid to support this. You can comb the scriptures to support this idiocy, and that is exactly what cults do....they find scriptures to support their cult. Biblical understanding requires the understanding of the big picture and the spirit of the scriptures. Portraying God as a monstrous puppet master does not fit the theme of the scriptures.
 

Instant

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Nobody chooses to be saved. God chooses who, and when, He saves.

"You have not chosen Me (Jesus), but I have chosen you and I have appointed you ..."
John 15:16
"No man can come to Me (Jesus) unless the Father draws them ..."
John 6:44

Faith is a gift, not a choice made by man.

".. by grace are ye saved through faith; and that (faith) not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: "
Eph. 2:8
" ... you, who by Him do believe in God, ..."
1 Pet. 1:20-21
"For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on Him, but also to suffer for His sake; "
Phil. 1:29
"To another (the gift of) faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;"
1 Cor. 12:9
"... faith which was once delivered unto the saints."
Jude 3
This is not easily understood, but the truth is, predestination is true and so is free will. God created us all knowing everything we would ever do, so in that way, we are predestined saved or lost, but at the same time, we are still making our own choices, so we have free will. We will have to give an account for all we do both good and bad. God will not accept as an excuse that we had no choice in the sins we committed.
 
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GEN2REV

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We have the free-will to choose Christ. Without free-will nothing really matters....just a bunch of puppets in a very boring puppet show. Not real love for God, not real faith in God. What good is love and faith and worship to God, if He forced it on us.
God gives the gift of faith.

Our free-will remains before and after receiving that gift. What we do with that faith is up to us.

It's exactly what the Bible teaches and I've provided the Scripture to prove it.

I am Kool with you completely ignoring what the Bible teaches and continuing to rant and rave about robots.
Beyond that, this belief portrays God as a merciless monster that is nothing but a puppet master. A religion designed to insult God. Again even Satan would not be so stupid to support this. You can comb the scriptures to support this idiocy, and that is exactly what cults do....they find scriptures to support their cult. Biblical understanding requires the understanding of the big picture and the spirit of the scriptures.
Mmm-kay.
Portraying God as a monstrous puppet master does not fit the theme of the scriptures.
No, it does not.
 

Grailhunter

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God gives the gift of faith.
John Calvin has twisted your mind.
You could not be more wrong if you tried with both hands.
Christ's gift to us is salvation, but if you do not choose to have faith in Him, salvation is not an option for you.

Now the topic of faith and what it is, is another discussion.
 

GISMYS_7

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God is unwilling that any perish but that all believe and are saved== but your choice.
 

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Grailhunter

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Wait! osas = "salvation IS Secure" and we "struggle against that (false belief)"???:

Why would I do that? Because of:

God's ALL-Sufficient BLOOD! In Which I believe with all my heart:

I do not struggle against God's Truth Of ( Over 12-Dozen Plain and Clear ) Scriptures:

God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In CHRIST
+
God's Eternal Assurance
+
God's Eternal Life Insurance

Amen.

Yep salvation is definitely secure.
But OSAS is about playing Christ for a fool.
A Christian can definitely sin their way to hell.

It is the concept of OSAS that is horrible not the people that believe in it.
Most that believe in OSAS, its just about making themselves feel better.
Not that they are horrible sinners.

2nd Corinthians :5:10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Matthew 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.

1st Corinthians 6:9-10 “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God”

Galatians 5:19-21 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: sexual immorality, impurity, indecent behavior, idolatry, witchcraft, hostilities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

2nd Peter 2:20-22 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first, For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A dog returns to its own vomit,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”
 
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MatthewG

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Accoring to revelation,

“‘I, Jesus did send my messenger to testify to you these things concerning the assemblies; I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright and morning star! And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come; and he who is hearing — let him say, Come; and he who is thirsting — let him come; and he who is willing — let him take the water of life freely.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22‬:‭16‬-‭17‬ ‭YLT98‬‬

@GEN2REV, it seems there is a calling that people respond to, there are 7 ways that Yahava speaks to people.

I know it took me 26 years someone telling parables about Jesus, and that is when the drawing towards Yahava happened, and that was when the choice to have faith - was there- cause people have to choose, hey someone greater than me made these Stars, sun, moon, animals, plants, trees, food which is something you have to choose to believe or not.

You have to be willingly,

Jesus said Jerusalm got so bad they were not willingly to change their mind.
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who murders the prophets and stones [to death] those [messengers] who are sent to her [by God]! How often I wanted to gather your children together [around Me], as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

However to fight against it,
“for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you — of God the gift, not of works, that no one may boast; for of Him we are workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God did before prepare, that in them we may walk.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2‬:‭8‬-‭10‬ ‭YLT98‬‬

Is it the Grace that is a gift or is it Faith that is a gift? Its a blessing to have the gift of choice, and to have faith seems like a choice while being saved by grace through - faith - is a gift.

You have to decide how you see it.
 

Rella ~ I am a woman

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This is not easily understood, but the truth is, predestination is true and so is free will. God created us all knowing everything we would ever do, so in that way, we are predestined saved or lost, but at the same time, we are still making our own choices, so we have free will. We will have to give an account for all we do both good and bad. God will not accept as an excuse that we had no choice in the sins we committed.
New member here and admittedly have not read to the end of the replies but compelled to put in my 2cents worth at this point.

I am a non-believing in Calvin who belongs to a Calvin teaching church. Much reading and study has had me draw conclusions that may differ with you.... and that is alright. But just putting this out there.

I think your statement of predestination is true and so is free will has a cetrtain validity to it, but
what most Calvinists fail to explain is the simple statement that one will read when it says "According to John Calvin, predestination is God's unchangeable decree from before the creation of the world that he would freely save some people (the elect), foreordaining them to eternal life, while the others (the reprobate) would be "barred from access to" salvation and sentenced to "eternal death

That statement should strike the fear into every heart that has lived their life believing the... "Well. if my church said Calvin preselected us then I am safe." And more so when there truly is no specific understandable way to know if you would have an option. Like... "Which group am I in?"

Because if Calvin was correct we stand every chance of being predestined to eternal death.

Which... I will remind all... no one really understands... At least I dont ... in light of another translation being "By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.[1]

Eternal Death and Damnation are polar opposites IMO.

Wiki even says Predestination is a doctrine in Calvinism dealing with the question of the control that God exercises over the world. In the words of the Westminster Confession of Faith, God "freely and unchangeably ordained whatsoever comes to pass."

They go on to say:
Double predestination is the idea that not only does God choose some to be saved, he also creates some people who will be damned.
But your churches do not go into this and If God predetermines that there are those to be saved, and also be damned.... then borrowing from ...

1 COR 10:13 NASB95v13 No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

Knowing that God has made a way to avoid temptation I also believe that God has provided a way to avoid damnation that was in his mix before the foundations of the earth....and that is through the Free Will given to every human so we can choose.... through Faith ....to accept His plan of Jesus' shed blood for our sins
Or by our own choice we can simply ignore what every human has been told by this time in history in one way or another.

IOW IF God does preselect people for one or the other, IT IS through free will we chose to come to Him or choose to ignore.
 

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IOW IF God does preselect people for one or the other, IT IS through free will we chose to come to Him or choose to ignore.
Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome to the Board.

Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided! (+ I and II!) * ← PG rated "Approved" *
↑ according to God's 'Foreknowledge' He Knew I would ↑ believe, so He Predestinated
me to serve Him, learn this, ↑ and pass it along, by sharing It! ↑ cb ♫ :innocent:

Grace, Peace, And JOY!…

* PG = Perfect God / Parental Guidance:

Study to Be APPROVED Open Bible.png
 
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Rella ~ I am a woman

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Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome to the Board.

Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided! (+ I and II!) * ← PG rated "Approved" *
↑ according to God's 'Foreknowledge' He Knew I would ↑ believe, so He Predestinated
me to serve Him, learn this, ↑ and pass it along, by sharing It! ↑ cb ♫ :innocent:

Grace, Peace, And JOY!…

* PG = Perfect God / Parental Guidance:

View attachment 35015
according to God's 'Foreknowledge' He Knew I would ↑ believe, so He Predestinated
me to serve Him
Good morning,

That seems too simplistic an answer to a very complex aspect of life.

Almost falls into the OSAS group because if one is pre chosen to salvation you are. Right? No way too lose that?

First... if God predestined some to eternal heaven and then some to eternal damnation it seems counter productive to have inspired a written word instructing those in Mark 16:15-16 to “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 The one who has believed and has been baptized will be saved; but the one who has not believed will be condemned.

( note what is missing: It does not say those who have not been baptized will be condemned but those who
did not believe. A discussion for another day)

Always remember... while Calvin and all would have one believe God's predestination was intended for all... allegedly from before the foundations of the earth...

Now, I know, you know, and we all should know that without our Lord Jesus' shed blood we all would be lost.
That intricacy has always been part of the Holy Father's plan for why we are here. And without unwavering belief in that we are sunk.

Jesus has said in JOHN 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

Jesus also said before this in JOHN 6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

But by God's holy words, via Jesus our Lord and Savior, within the four corners of the Holy Boble...no matter which translation one prefers... came the following statement....

He said in Mathew 15:24 But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

(note: We are allegedly told Mathew was written before John. Assuming this is so what Jesus said in 15:24 of Mathew was not meant for us and did not cover "OUR' potential predestination.

Biblically we do not enter the mix until long after Jesus was resurrected

Paul then tells us ( sigh... someday I hope to have a long conversation with him ) tells us in Romans 11

11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion[a] mean!

13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. 15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

This would be us.... Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.

God's original plan was for his chosen. When after being preached to and taught and many still did not accept their Messiah... then long after Jesus' blood was shed were we given the opportunity to be part of the tree.... seemingly to upset the Jews......

THAT IS FREE WILL. Choosing to accept or not. God draws... but it is our choice.

Some Jews blew it... and more so many gentiles did too by their non acceptance of Jesus.


Did God foreknow who would believe and who would not. Yes, likely so.

But that is not predestination because under predestination one would have no choice in their own destiny and I cannot accept a loving Father , that God is, would deliberately sit up in heaven and preselect specific individuals that would be sent to eternal damnation.... with no opportunity to learn and grow in truth.
 
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