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BreadOfLife

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You say "bodily", which the word of God does not say, because you are of the flesh: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." You have "added" to the word of God, and will receive your due. Repent, while there is still time.

I have shown you already where the bible says what becomes of the flesh. Here it is again:

Ecclesiastes 12:7
"Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it."
And AGAIN - show me where the Bible says that He shed his physical Body in light of the fact that he ATE and touched and allowed Himself to be touched AFTER the Resurrection.

Chapter and verse, please . . .
 

Dcopymope

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Do not be deceived:

Ecclesiastes 12:7
"Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it."

If you came from dust, if dust is what the temple is made of as clearly stated in the creation account, then obviously the dust is exactly where it will return. At what point is that entire chapter in any way about the ressurection to come? What does this have to do with the bodily asencion of Jesus into heaven? Not adding onto scripture ideas not even implied doesn't make me deceived. This is me letting the Bible speak for itself and letting men stand as the liars they have always been since the fall.
 

ScottA

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If you came from dust, if dust is what the temple is made of as clearly stated in the creation account, then obviously the dust is exactly where it will return. At what point is that entire chapter in any way about the ressurection to come? What does this have to do with the bodily asencion of Jesus into heaven?
Are you saying then that you did not descend from the first Adam, but only the Last Adam? Because, otherwise, the principle applies.

The bodily dust of Christ did not ascend, for "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." That body that is raised up, "is not that same body that was", nor is the dust or first Adam glorified. The Last Adam (Christ) is not a glorified dust giving being, but "a life giving spirit."

"God is spirit." Why do you fight this? [rhetorical]
 

ScottA

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Your man made heresy is an abomination before God.

Luke 24:38-4339
And He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”
And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. While they still could not believe it because of their joy and amazement, He said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” They gave Him a piece of a broiled fish; and He took it and ate it before them.


John 20:20

And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord.

John 20:27-28
Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”


ALL this occurred AFTER the Resurrection in His Glorified Body.
He ATE, touched and allowed them to touch Him.
You know not of what you speak.

You have quoted from the account of Christ raising from the dead, not ascending into heaven. He did not commit His flesh to the Father, but His spirit [only].
 

ScottA

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And AGAIN - show me where the Bible says that He shed his physical Body in light of the fact that he ATE and touched and allowed Himself to be touched AFTER the Resurrection.

Chapter and verse, please . . .
I give you chapter and verse, and still you do not see.
 

Dcopymope

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Are you saying then that you did not descend from the first Adam, but only the Last Adam? Because, otherwise, the principle applies.

The bodily dust of Christ did not ascend, for "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." That body that is raised up, "is not that same body that was", nor is the dust or first Adam glorified. The Last Adam (Christ) is not a glorified dust giving being, but "a life giving spirit."

"God is spirit." Why do you fight this? [rhetorical]

The flesh and blood we currently have cannot enter heaven because it is corrupted, but our flesh shall be made incorruptible by the quickening of the spirit. And really, it doesn't even matter, because God will bring his kingdom here to us anyway. Scripture is quite clear on this and I really don't like repeating myself.

(Romans 8:21-23) "Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. {22} For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. {23} And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."

(Philippians 3:18-21) "(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: {19} Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) {20} For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: {21} Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself."

Now, I'll ask the same question BreadofLife asked. where is the scripture stating that Jesus Christs bodily ascension didn't include his physical appearance? Also, please do explain how Moses and Elijah appeared from heaven in bodily form during the transfiguration on the mountain.

(Mark 9:2-10) "¶ And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. {3} And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. {4} And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. {5} And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. {6} For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid. {7} And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. {8} And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves. {9} And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead. {10} And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean."
 

ScottA

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The flesh and blood we currently have cannot enter heaven because it is corrupted, but our flesh shall be made incorruptible by the quickening of the spirit. And really, it doesn't even matter, because God will bring his kingdom here to us anyway. Scripture is quite clear on this and I really don't like repeating myself.

Now, I'll ask the same question BreadofLife asked. where is the scripture stating that Jesus Christs bodily ascension didn't include his physical appearance? Also, please do explain how Moses and Elijah appeared from heaven in bodily form during the transfiguration on the mountain.
If you are going to ask the same question as he, you will find my answer in my answer to him.

As for the rest, what we are talking about is a physical manifestation, a mere image of what is not except that it is in the world, of that which is in the heavenly realm. That image, we will indeed take with us, but that physical manifestation of would-be matter we will not - for it is not.

So, then, what the disciples saw, they saw, but did not perceive, for they were of the world (at the time), as are we, if we do not see Christ as He is. The same is true of Moses and Elijah. Do you not know that we shall not see God, unless we have, as Christ said, come from Him - Him who is spirit and not flesh of any kind?
 

BreadOfLife

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I give you chapter and verse, and still you do not see.
No you haven't. Why do you lie so much??
Show me the verse that says Jesus shed his physical Body in light of the fact that he ATE and touched and allowed Himself to be touched AFTER the Resurrection.

If you can't do that - then your heretical position that He has no body is further exposed as rubbish.
 

Dcopymope

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If you are going to ask the same question as he, you will find my answer in my answer to him.

As for the rest, what we are talking about is a physical manifestation, a mere image of what is not except that it is in the world, of that which is in the heavenly realm. That image, we will indeed take with us, but that physical manifestation of would-be matter we will not - for it is not.

So, then, what the disciples saw, they saw, but did not perceive, for they were of the world (at the time), as are we, if we do not see Christ as He is. The same is true of Moses and Elijah. Do you not know that we shall not see God, unless we have, as Christ said, come from Him - Him who is spirit and not flesh of any kind?

Translation: What Peter, James and John saw on the mountain was an optical illusion.

And you still haven't cited the scripture stating that his ascension did not include his physical appearance. "A spriit does not have flesh and bone as you see me" does not answer the question.
 

ScottA

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No you haven't. Why do you lie so much??
Show me the verse that says Jesus shed his physical Body in light of the fact that he ATE and touched and allowed Himself to be touched AFTER the Resurrection.

If you can't do that - then your heretical position that He has no body is further exposed as rubbish.
Define the resurrection correctly, and I will give chapter and verse to you again.
 

ScottA

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Translation: What Peter, James and John saw on the mountain was an optical illusion.

And you still haven't cited the scripture stating that his ascension did not include his physical appearance. "A spriit does not have flesh and bone as you see me" does not answer the question.
You do not have an elementary understanding yet, nor do you seem to want to know the truth, but rather continue to harp on what you have incorrectly defined.

If you want to call the "image" which God has "manifest" an "optical illusion" in disrespect, I have nothing for you, for you show yourself to be insincere.

So, I will ask you... If Christ has gone "to the Father", and "God is spirit", which is He, flesh or spirit? And if you know the answer, be sure to quote the scripture, since you yourself will surely insist upon it.
 
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Dcopymope

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You do not have an elementary understanding yet, nor do you seem to want to know the truth, but rather continue to harp on what you have incorrectly defined.

If you want to call the "image" which God has "manifest" an "optical illusion" in disrespect, I have nothing for you, for you show yourself to be insincere.

So, I will ask you... If Christ has gone "to the Father", and "God is spirit", which is He, flesh or spirit? And if you know the answer, be sure to quote the scripture, since you yourself will surely insist upon it.

:rolleyes: No actually, that's what you have in effect called the transfiguration, an optical illusion. How about you answer my questions first and maybe I'll think about answering yours. How did Moses and Elijah appear in heaven, in physical form if flesh cannot inherit the kingdom?
 

ScottA

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:rolleyes: No actually, that's what you have in effect called the transfiguration, an optical illusion. How about you answer my questions first and maybe I'll think about answering yours. How did Moses and Elijah appear in heaven, in physical form if flesh cannot inherit the kingdom?
Optical illusion is your term. I have just told you what it is because you did not know.

Moses and Elijah did not appear in heaven...but I understand. Does it not already indicate what occurred, since it says they "appear?" Did you read that they "appeared" and think it said they "became flesh?"

As for the transfiguration of Jesus on the mount, certainly He changed before their eyes. What is your point?
 

Dcopymope

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Optical illusion is your term. I have just told you what it is because you did not know.

Moses and Elijah did not appear in heaven...but I understand. Does it not already indicate what occurred, since it says they "appear?" Did you read that they "appeared" and think it said they "became flesh?"

So where did they go when they disappeared then if they didn't appear from heaven? Back to the grave? Abraham's bosom? Hell? Up someones behind? Or are they in fact the first two examples of the resurrected, glorified, incorruptible bodies as it clearly states? And Elijah never died in fact. If they are the first examples, then that makes them the two candlesticks, the two witnesses. What else could they be a witness of that is relevant but of God himself?

As for the transfiguration of Jesus on the mount, certainly He changed before their eyes. What is your point?

And he was still flesh when he did change, was he not?
 

ScottA

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So where did they go when they disappeared then if they didn't appear from heaven? Back to the grave? Abraham's bosom? Hell? Up someones behind? Or are they in fact the first two examples of the resurrected, glorified, incorruptible bodies as it clearly states? And Elijah never died in fact. If they are the first examples, then that makes them the two candlesticks, the two witnesses. What else could they be a witness of that is relevant but of God himself?
Your own words have told you the truth: after they "appeared" they "dis-appeared."

Moses and Elijah, just as it is true of all who came before Christ sent the Holy Spirit and provided the means by which we may be born again of the spirit of God...they were and are, "in Christ." These are "the dead in Christ" which take part in "the second resurrection." These are the first who are last. Elijah did not see death, but was taken up. He was "transfigured", changed. Nevertheless, he is in Christ whom did see death, and takes part in the second resurrection.
And he was still flesh when he did change, was he not?
Again, your own words have told you the truth...he was "changed."
 

Dcopymope

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Your own words have told you the truth: after they "appeared" they "dis-appeared."

Once again, WHERE did they disappear? Believe it or not, this is important.

Moses and Elijah, just as it is true of all who came before Christ sent the Holy Spirit and provided the means by which we may be born again of the spirit of God...they were and are, "in Christ." These are "the dead in Christ" which take part in "the second resurrection." These are the first who are last. Elijah did not see death, but was taken up. He was "transfigured", changed. Nevertheless, he is in Christ whom did see death, and takes part in the second resurrection.

Again, your own words have told you the truth...he was "changed."

:rolleyes: And.......none of this answers the question. I see "change" is a mere slogan on here....."change is good". Well, what "change" are we talking about? And as far as scripture is concerned, it was God who sent the holy spirit, not Moses, Elijah or anyone else. Heresy much?
 

ScottA

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Once again, WHERE did they disappear? Believe it or not, this is important.

:rolleyes: And.......none of this answers the question. I see "change" is a mere slogan on here....."change is good". Well, what "change" are we talking about? And as far as scripture is concerned, it was God who sent the holy spirit, not Moses, Elijah or anyone else. Heresy much?
Put a lid on the wise cracks and pay attention.

As I said... They are "in Christ." ..."Transfiguration" is "change." ...and...as I said... "Christ sent the Holy Spirit."
 

101G

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Moses and Elijah, just as it is true of all who came before Christ sent the Holy Spirit and provided the means by which we may be born again of the spirit of God...they were and are, "in Christ." These are "the dead in Christ" which take part in "the second resurrection." These are the first who are last. Elijah did not see death, but was taken up. He was "transfigured", changed. Nevertheless, he is in Christ whom did see death, and takes part in the second resurrection.
Scott you said, "Elijah did not see death?". that's an error, Elijah as well as Enoch died here on the earth, as well as Moses. only Elijah and Enoch was translated/transported to another place on the earth in order to escape death at the time where they was at. the word translated is transported, scripture, Hebrews 11:5 "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God". and notice Enoch died. here's the proof, just keep on reading here in Hebrews 11 until you get to verse 13, "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth".

Now Elijah, 2 Kings 2:1 "And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal". Elijah was not taken to the third heaven. the word heaven here is the Hebrew word,
H8064 שָׁמַיִם shamayim (shaw-mah'-yim) n-m.
שָׁמֶה shameh (shaw-meh') [unused singular]
1. the sky (as aloft).
not the "heavens", but the heaven, sky.
also a letter came to Jehoram the king, from Elijah after his been taken up, 2 Chronicles 21:12.

this is nothing new as to people being transported to another part of the planet. example Acts 8:39 "And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing".

I suggest you study translate, and heaven more.
 
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ScottA

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Scott you said, "Elijah did not see death?". that's an error, Elijah as well as Enoch died here on the earth, as well as Moses. only Elijah and Enoch was translated/transported to another place on the earth in order to escape death at the time where they was at. the word translated is transported, scripture, Hebrews 11:5 "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God". and notice Enoch died. here's the proof, just keep on reading here in Hebrews 11 until you get to verse 13, "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth".

Now Elijah, 2 Kings 2:1 "And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal". Elijah was not taken to the third heaven. the word heaven here is the Hebrew word,
H8064 שָׁמַיִם shamayim (shaw-mah'-yim) n-m.
שָׁמֶה shameh (shaw-meh') [unused singular]
1. the sky (as aloft).
not the "heavens", but the heaven, sky.
also a letter came to Jehoram the king, from Elijah after his been taken up, 2 Chronicles 21:12.

this is nothing new as to people being transported to another part of the planet. example Acts 8:39 "And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing".

I suggest you study translate, and heaven more.
If you have been following along, you will notice that I did not say that Elijah did not see death at first, but only after the scripture was quoted that says so. But here again, as it is with many scriptures that appear to contradict, it is only for our humanity that it has been relayed to us as such, for we do not do well with understanding things translated from on high. Nonetheless, whether we say that Elijah died (which he did, for to be present with the Lord, is to die to self), or whether we say that he did not die but was taken up, he is in Christ, among the dead.
 
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101G

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whether we say that he did not die but was taken up, he is in Christ, among the dead.
John 3:12 "If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven".
 
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