Salvation loss. Is it possible?

[mjrhealth]

.. I need help !

We all need help thats why we have JEsus, now if only men would get out of teh way.

 

[pia]

We all need help thats why we have JEsus, now if only men would get out of teh way.

Yeah, even ourselves at times lol

 

[Pisteuo]

I would add that men are not in my way. But "I" am in my way. Too much me I reckon.

 

[pia]

I would add that men are not in my way. But "I" am in my way. Too much me I reckon.

Hi, that's exactly what I meant. We need to get ourselves out of the way, stop worrying about ourselves and a whole bunch of other 'self' things lol :)

 

[Pisteuo]

Amen. If I have an enemy, it is "me". And I war within.

 

[pia]

Amen. If I have an enemy, it is "me". And I war within.

Oh yeah, you just reminded me of the bit that goes :" For we war NOT against flesh and blood, but principalities and powers in the heavenly realm....." Dang it, I am sure there is more, I am going to get my Bible out and find that bit.....So it is obviously important that when we go through that inward struggle, that we don't give in to the enemy and try to battle that which we cannot battle and which wouldn't do us any good anyway... this is just wonderful, so many great things being brought to my remembrance, excellent. Thank you Pisteuo, bless you :)

 

[bbyrd009]

I would add that men are not in my way. But "I" am in my way. Too much me I reckon.

amen--in some weird way that cannot be gotten away from, we also need others to get to truth imo. Even if i get what mjr is saying. Even the ones stating untruths lead to a clearer picture of truth i guess. No one intentionally lies, i don't think.

 

[Peanut]

Salvation is by God's grace.
If the argument wishes to promote we can lose our salvation than all that need happen is the posted scripture wherein God says he will withdraw his grace.
And then we can lose our salvation.
We do nothing to obtain our salvation. We can do nothing to lose it. Salvation is by grace of God first. And by our faith in that second. Jesus died to bring that truth to the world.
If it isn't true, i.e. we can lose what God's grace bestows, then the argument really is by some that Jesus died for no reason. And eternal life, eternal salvation is a myth.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Salvation is by God's grace.
If the argument wishes to promote we can lose our salvation than all that need happen is the posted scripture wherein God says he will withdraw his grace.
And then we can lose our salvation.
We do nothing to obtain our salvation. We can do nothing to lose it. Salvation is by grace of God first. And by our faith in that second. Jesus died to bring that truth to the world.
If it isn't true, i.e. we can lose what God's grace bestows, then the argument really is by some that Jesus died for no reason. And eternal life, eternal salvation is a myth.

Several times now in this thread I have done just that: I have shown where the Sacred Word of God says that you CAN lose your salvation - and NOBODY has even attempted to refute the dozen or so passages I have presented.
Here they are again for your edification:

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they be "cut off" from what they never had?

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This is self-explanatory . . .

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness or they will LOSE their "secure position".

1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.

Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot "blot out" a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God "take away" somebody’s share of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.

 

[skypair]

I believe it is possible for a heaven bound Christian to end up condemned. There are many passages describing this but I believe the parable in Luke 12:42-46 is one of the clearest.

To say that the servant will be assigned a place with unbelievers makes it obvious that he was a believer initially.

OK, there's a couple of problems with your view. 1) This parable is about the 2nd coming of Christ and the judgment of the OT saints, not the church. The OT believers were in the "Master-servant" relationship with God but we are in the "Father-son" relationship. 2) These "saints" did believe but they had not committed to God through repentance from sin and FAITH in God. We are not saved by simply believing, Mick .. not in the OT nor in the NT. 3) The third thing I would say is that, as soon as the NT saint is saved, his soul is in heaven ("...raised us up and seated us in heavenly places in Christ Jesus." -- Eph 2:6, Jn 17:21-23) from whence he will not be cast out.

skypair

 

[Pisteuo]

Is being "saved" the same as having your name in Gods book of life? Cause it seems as if God told Moses that to get your name out of His book he'd only have to sin against God. Seems like Moses could've sinned against God and had his name taken out of the book then. Maybe someone can clear this up for me.

 

[bbyrd009]

that to get your name out of His book he'd only have to sin against God.

can you provide a ref for this? i'm not recalling the passage, ty

 

[Job]

can you provide a ref for this? i'm not recalling the passage, ty

Exodus 32
30 Now it came to pass on the next day that Moses said to the people, “You have committed a great sin. So now I will go up to the Lord; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin.”
31 Then Moses returned to the Lord and said, “Oh, these people have committed a great sin, and have made for themselves a god of gold!
32 Yet now, if You will forgive their sin—but if not, I pray, blot me out of Your book which You have written.”
33 And the Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.
34 Now therefore, go, lead the people to the place of which I have spoken to you. Behold, My Angel shall go before you. Nevertheless, in the day when I visit for punishment, I will visit punishment upon them for their sin.”

k

 

[Job]

Is being "saved" the same as having your name in Gods book of life? Cause it seems as if God told Moses that to get your name out of His book he'd only have to sin against God. Seems like Moses could've sinned against God and had his name taken out of the book then. Maybe someone can clear this up for me.

It wasn't Moses who sinned. It was those guys he left at the bottom of the hill.

Exodus 32
7 And the Lord said to Moses, “Go, get down! For your people whom you brought out of the land of Egypt have corrupted themselves.
8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them. They have made themselves a molded calf, and worshiped it and sacrificed to it, and said, ‘This is your god, O Israel, that brought you out of the land of Egypt!’”
9 And the Lord said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people!
10 Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation.”

t

 

[BreadOfLife]

In Post #569 - I have listed NINE passages that prove we can lose our salvation.
So far - NOBODY had refuted them . . .

 

[Helen]

Maybe this should be another thread...I don't know. But somehow I find some of the posts a bit confusing.
So, when we a tiny babies is our name IN The Book?
It has to be in, or it can't be "blotted out!!"

If it gets blotted out because of sin..."Then let he who has no sin throw the first stone" Who is without sin? Do any of us wake up and live the whole day totally pleasing to God, or do we ever 'miss it' in attitude, anger, or action?

I am serious, I don't find everything as cut, dried, and as straight forward as every one else seems to do.

Anyone?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Exodus 32
30 Now it came to pass on the next day that Moses said to the people, “You have committed a great sin. So now I will go up to the Lord; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin.”
31 Then Moses returned to the Lord and said, “Oh, these people have committed a great sin, and have made for themselves a god of gold!
32 Yet now, if You will forgive their sin—but if not, I pray, blot me out of Your book which You have written.”
33 And the Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.
34 Now therefore, go, lead the people to the place of which I have spoken to you. Behold, My Angel shall go before you. Nevertheless, in the day when I visit for punishment, I will visit punishment upon them for their sin.”k

The key phrase here is "BLOT OUT".
God cannot "BLOT OUT" a name that was never there to begin with.

This is talking about names that WERE in God's Book - and were "BLOTTED OUT".
The Bible is adamantly clear that we CAN lose our secure place with God . . .

 

[Helen]

The key phrase here is "BLOT OUT".
God cannot "BLOT OUT" a name that was never there to begin with.

This is talking about names that WERE in God's Book - and were "BLOTTED OUT".
1 JoThe Bible is adamantly clear that we CAN lose our secure place with God . . .

Thanks. I know, I totally get that. Is everyone IN , and when a person sins it gets blocked out?
Or do people get 'saved' and get put in then, but get blotted out when we sin?

1 John 1 8 "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

So by those scriptures it sounds a bit like "written in the book", ..blotted out of the book.... repent = so written back in!!
I have never been a fan of " save , lost, save, lost" , then saved again...doctrine!!
I still don't have a clear grasp of the Book thing. I am obviously not "hearing by the Spirit", but trying to understand it via my mind. I guess I need to pray about it more.
bless you...

 

[Job]

Anyone?

Here's what I believe.

People are born with their name in the Book of Life. The heart of a new born is probably the most innocent thing in the world. I don't believe the Lord would condemn that innocence to an eternity of fire and brimstone.

The blotting out of names takes place at the moment of death. If we're born with our name in the Book and it gets blotted out during our lifetime, I don't believe we get a second chance for our name to be reinstated. I do believe however that the Lord is patient and leaves our name in the Book just in case we have a change of heart before we die. If at the time of our death we are unrepentant, our name is removed/blotted out.

This is what I believe.

Did I miss anything?

h

 

[Helen]

This is what I believe.

Thanks...I think that I understand that. Especially about the grace of God leaving it in....until our final breath.

I know that I still have not got the full grasp of it, something that fully satisfies my soul , where I can smile and say- " Yes, THAT is what I believe."
Bottom line, I just wish those scriptures weren't there.. ..it would be easier. I understand and know what "I believe" about salvation etc
But, I can't say I have wondered much about the Book of Life...not until this this thread ... :)