Saved to perish?

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Enoch111

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The second death has no torment in it. It is a death.
This contradicts Scripture. The second death is eternal separation from God in the Lake of Fire, where there is eternal conscious torment, and weeping and gnashing of teeth.

And death and [Hades] were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the Lake of Fire... But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death... For without [outside] are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie... (Rev 20:14,15; 21:8; 22:15)

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Rev 14:9-11).

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the Lake of Fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.(Rev 20:10)
 
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Taken

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Saved to perish?
OP ^

Saved to perish? No
Saved to have eternal life? Yes

Glory to God,
Taken
 
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prism

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Saved to perish?
OP ^

Saved to perish? No
Saved to have eternal life? Yes

Glory to God,
Taken
Yes.

Romans 8:35-39 KJV
[35] Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? [36] As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. [37] Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. [38] For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, [39] Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 
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marks

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Who said "IF YOU ENDURE TO THE END ?"
Jesus ....
I agree with Jesus.
I agree with Jesus, but I don't agree with quoting Him out of context. If the Jews endure to the end of the tribulation, Jesus will save them when He returns.
 
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marks

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(Jesus does NOT take away your free will before you physically die - so you can choose who you will follow until then... up to a point... , all as detailed in the Gospel.)
You are correct. God does not take away your "free will". For one thing, you've never had one. "Free will" is a myth, is unscriptural. You were a slave to sin, now you've become a slave to righteousness. Where in this do you see "free will"? You are given choices within a certain VERY LIMITED set of options. Obey Jesus or obey the flesh.

When we choose to obey Jesus, He sets about to repairing our will, working in us to both will and to do what pleases Him.

If you are saying you can "free will" your way to being "unborn" from God, you can't do that any more than you were able to "free will" your way to being born of God.

Much love!
 
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marks

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You have found the only verse in the bible that may suggest that some people (who worship the beast) will be tormented forever (?) in the lake of fire.

There are many possible outcomes at judgment. People will over-simplify there being only a heaven and a hell...which are places that are not eternal. Heaven will come to earth and hell will be thrown into the lake of fire.
"May suggest"? I suggest reading it again. And it's not the only place God tells of eternal torment.
 
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Joseph77

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If there's no free will as people have had since the garden, thru all the patriarchs, prophets, psalms, and new testament,
then there's no need for any christian church, school, forum, nor for any such thing.

Thinking the lie that there is no free will, is of course the enemies trick - deception, just like the trick, the deception, that there is no devil.
 

marks

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You are as free to believe that as I am to disbelieve it. We have a dimension of freewill because God has predetermined us with the ability to choose.
That's true, but neither one of us is free to dive into the sun and come back, for instance. We can only choose between very limited choices.

Much love!
 

Stumpmaster

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That's true, but neither one of us is free to dive into the sun and come back, for instance. We can only choose between very limited choices.

Much love!
Yes. Phew. When writing poems I like to choose my words, but my ability to do so is due to predetermined elements.


ZOMBIE CYBORG ROBOT CLONES

If we are forced by God to rigidly function without any decision-making role on our part we may as well sing this song:

We are robots, zombie robots,
We have no choice or will of our own.
All our brains are programmed to call the shots,
Each of us a cyborg robot clone.

We must all be puppets pulled into each position,
By commands and directions of many different kinds.
We never do anything of our own volition,
We are push-button androids with closed circuit minds.

Upload and download day after day,
Reboot and recycle, compelled to obey.
We are just machines if our wills are automatic,
Any love we have for God is literally synthetic.

Don't speak to us of choice, or freedom to believe,
With everything decided we are helpless to perceive.
If we really are just robots or puppets on a string,
This song may be a thing we are predestined to sing!


©20-12-08
Rivers Of Meaning: Zombie Cyborg Robot Clones
 

Joseph77

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You are as free to believe that as I am to disbelieve it. We have a dimension of freewill because God has predetermined us with the ability to choose.
It is very strange that some people who claim to follow Jesus also claim no one has free will.
What will they say if they are condemned then , by the Judge, on Judgment Day ? Will it make any difference what they claim then , at all, according to them - it seems no - as they do not have free will - so what judgment they get is the judgment they get, and they never had anything to do about that ??!!
 

marks

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If we are forced by God to rigidly function without any decision-making role on our part we may as well sing this song:
Well I suppose so, it that's what you choose to do.

Of course, I'm not saying that we rigidly function without any decision making role on our part. But I am saying that I've heard many people's understanding of what they think of as "free will", and I don't see that presented in Scripture.

I see that people do not seek God, do not want God, and close their eyes to God. I see that God is searching out each one of us, and offers Himself to us in love and salvation, and gives us a gift of faith, that presents us with a choice. We can choose to accept this Gospel, to mix that faith with the hearing of the Word of God. If we choose that, God justifies us, and adopts us, and begets us. If we choose to not accept, we may not have another chance, we don't know. There are those who have run out of chances.

Before being born again, we follow the desires of our corrupt bodies and our corrupt minds. And even what we think of as righteousness isn't. After being born again, we can choose to either continue to follow those passions and desires, or we can choose to relinquish ourselves to Christ, to allow His Spirit in us to transform us to His image. Not to an image of our own making by our own choices. But the image of Christ Himself, by giving up our own choices.

In a sense, we make choices every moment, but in another sense, we just making the same choice over and over again, to die to self, and let Christ rule in me.

Much love!
 

marks

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It is very strange that some people who claim to follow Jesus also claim no one has free will.
Do you mean the Apostle Paul, who wrote, before you were a slave to sin, now you've become a slave to righteousness? How much free will do you see there?
 

Joseph77

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Do you mean the Apostle Paul, who wrote, before you were a slave to sin, now you've become a slave to righteousness? How much free will do you see there?
If you are not willingly and joyously a slave of JESUS,
then ....
well , does that mean you are on the other side ? Arian ? Remember that heresy ?
 

marks

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WHAT ?! HOLD THE PRESSES !

:)

There is no choosing if there is no free will...... is there ?
You can choose between extremely limited choices. I keep saying this, and it keeps coming back as, no one makes any choices.
Hm. Why do you suppose that is?
 

marks

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If you are not willingly and joyously a slave of JESUS,
then ....
well , does that mean you are on the other side ? Arian ? Remember that heresy ?
You know, you'd be a lot more pleasant to me if you just came out and said what you wanted to say.

Care to comment on the passage I mentioned? Or just deflect?

What does it say about 'free will' if you are a slave to sin before being in Christ, and a slave to righteousness having been reborn?
 

Joseph77

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You know, you'd be a lot more pleasant to me if you just came out and said what you wanted to say.

Care to comment on the passage I mentioned? Or just deflect?

What does it say about 'free will' if you are a slave to sin before being in Christ, and a slave to righteousness having been reborn?
It looks like for a long time you have had a problem believing in free will,

and for you to even get to the point of admitting that will take a lot more than I know, a lot more than you have posted , it may take a lot of time. Are you ready for that ?
There is no point to be pleasant at all if it results in more heresy- as the ones who were posting were permitted to for months and even though a few other members exposed their heresy, whether gently or not so gently, nothing changed - and the heresy continued.
Remember what is written about a wise man welcome/ accepts criticism (to hold and test, to see if it is true) and does not just reject criticism ? ( in Proverbs how many times ? )
And "Open Rebuke" is better than (so-called) "hidden love" (being quiet about someone's heresy even , or grievous sin - like sex in the congregation in Corinthians and churches today ) ....

Nothing in Scripture says to be quiet about heresy nor about the false gospels, and so on - follow the directions of Scriopture , and SEE THEN the JOY, PEACE and RIGHTEOUSNESS overflowing that they did continually EXPERIENCE in the New Testament where it was noted....... (and then even when admonition and discipline was practiced) ... as written.
 

Joseph77

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What does it say about 'free will' if you are a slave to sin before being in Christ, and a slave to righteousness having been reborn?
Does the Creator say to choose who you will serve today ?

Or does He just make you serve sin, unrighteousness, or righteousness, as He Sees Fit in His Good Pleasure without you getting to choose ?
 

prism

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Yes. Phew. When writing poems I like to choose my words, but my ability to do so is due to predetermined elements.


ZOMBIE CYBORG ROBOT CLONES

If we are forced by God to rigidly function without any decision-making role on our part we may as well sing this song:

We are robots, zombie robots,
We have no choice or will of our own.
All our brains are programmed to call the shots,
Each of us a cyborg robot clone.

We must all be puppets pulled into each position,
By commands and directions of many different kinds.
We never do anything of our own volition,
We are push-button androids with closed circuit minds.

Upload and download day after day,
Reboot and recycle, compelled to obey.
We are just machines if our wills are automatic,
Any love we have for God is literally synthetic.

Don't speak to us of choice, or freedom to believe,
With everything decided we are helpless to perceive.
If we really are just robots or puppets on a string,
This song may be a thing we are predestined to sing!


©20-12-08
Rivers Of Meaning: Zombie Cyborg Robot Clones
There's a difference between being slave and a robot. We were once slaves to sin and satan but were never robots.
 
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