Scripture is not the last word.

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bbyrd009

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why do you deem that an "accusation?" strikes me that a statement about you is being made, that you can either agree with or dispute, what's it gonna be?

more of your typical red herring bs, imo
Oh, yes, absolutely, I confirm with the scriptures.
do me a favor and keep your reply, ok, it would not make any sense to me anyway i guess.
 

ScottA

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why do you deem that an "accusation?" strikes me that a statement about you is being made, that you can either agree with or dispute, what's it gonna be?

more of your typical red herring bs, imo
do me a favor and keep your reply, ok, it would not make any sense to me anyway i guess.
Because it implements me in his error. In other words, he was trying to trick me by using my own comments to justify his error...just as Satan did in the garden.

Would you like to side with him and Satan then? Because, by your comment, you have already. As for you not wanting to hear it...I should not be surprised. But you should hear it, if not from me, from God, whom I have referred to in my answer, citing Satan's similar craftiness.
 

bbyrd009

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Because it implements me in his error.
? wth are you smoking, is my next Q. You are not implicated in any way, you either agree that you made the statement and you take it back, or you do not take it back, or you explain any apparent dichotomy between what you said and what we heard, or you digress, like you are doing right now.
 

ScottA

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? wth are you smoking, is my next Q. You are not implicated in any way, you either agree that you made the statement and you take it back, or you do not take it back, or you explain any apparent dichotomy between what you said and what we heard, or you digress, like you are doing right now.
Tell that to God, whom was quoted the same way by Satan.

I said what I said clear enough. If you have questions, ask. If you don't understand, ask. But don't come back with the same comeback as Satan, or that is how I will answer both you and windmillcharge, and I have.
 
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SkyWriting

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We often hear that the test of any comment or doctrine is scripture, and certainly it is a good test. It's just not the last word, nor is it the best test. Nor should it be considered our last line of defense. To do so, is to admit that we do not understand where we are in God's master plan of revelation, and that we do not have the Holy Spirit leading us unto all truth.

If we are under the impression that the scriptures are the final authority, the tie-breaker during these days...we are behind the times. Jesus made it clear that His "words are spirit." Moreover, by walking out the scriptures that were written of Him - He was put to death. You could say, what He did [by the word] according to the scriptures, was all that was humanly possible. For if a perfect Christ could not do perfectly according to the scriptures without being killed for it - there is nothing more or better that can be done. But, He did not leave it there.

Jesus told us exactly what the next phase was to be during these times - and it was not that we should keep referring back to the scriptures as the final say. No, after doing all that was humanly possible - in other words, by word, and by the scriptures - He very specifically stated that His last words would come as follows:

John 16:13
"However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come."

Likewise, the apostle Paul wrote:

Hebrews 6:1-2
"Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment."

Therefore, the scriptures, yes, even the elementary principles of Christ...once they are elementary to our learning - are to be "left" behind, that we may go on to "perfection"...which comes by "the Spirit of truth", or not at all.

So...as we enter into discussion here, please know that the scriptures only go so far in determining "all truth" and the last word.

My Uncle was a minister and I also wonder if he was saved.
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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"ScottA,


[We often hear that the test of any comment or doctrine is scripture, and certainly it is a good test. It's just not the last word, nor is it the best test. Nor should it be considered our last line of defense. To do so, is to admit that we do not understand where we are in God's master plan of revelation, and that we do not have the Holy Spirit leading us unto all truth.
John 16:13
"However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.]"


Scott makes the common mistake on jn 16, that causes his error here
;
25 These things have I spoken unto you, [The Apostles}

being yet present with you.{The Apostles]

We were not there. Only The Apostles were. Jesus had concluded His public ministry and was now speaking with the Apostles.
This thread is dealing with the topic of the Apostles and why they were unique and given promises and gifts that we do not receive.

This thread was never questioning the truth of God allowing believers to welcome truth, and grow in grace. That is obviously why we are given the Spirit of God.

That being said, there is no verse I know of that promises we are going to receive all truth as in special revelation as the Apostles were. There should not be any confusion on this.
There is no verse saying we the church are going to be "guided into ALL TRUTH".

Any "truth "we come to, is given by God . that is not the issue here at all.


There is something that makes the Apostles different from us.
All believers have the Spirit of God. Not all believers are Apostles.


There were signs of an Apostle;
12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.



26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name,

he shall teach you all things,[The Apostles]

and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
[ you the Apostles]

Jesus cannot bring to our remembrance what we did not hear Him teach when he was here on Earth.

Does the Spirit allow believers to welcome the truth of scripture? yes
Does the Spirit help us remember things, yes

However that is not what was being taught in Jn14, 15, 16.

Jn.15
26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.


This is addressed to the Apostles;

mk 3:14
14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,

jn16;
4 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.

Again, THE APOSTLES...

jn16;
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

Jesus is clear that He has many additional truths to teach to the Apostles, but they could not welcome these things until the Spirit allowed them to.
This is not spoken to the church, but the Apostles. He was speaking and teaching THEM audibly.



13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

This again is spoken directly to the Apostles, not everyone.
We can learn things based on what they wrote, but not one of us, is "guided into all truth".
We can learn truth from what they wrote, yes. But we are not promised to be guided into ALL TRUTH as they were.

Every false teacher pulls verse 13 out of the gospel of jn and adds 1jn 2:27 to explain why they are guided into all truth...NOT
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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yes because His words are Spirit and they are life, not dried up ink on the pages of a book, you wont find life in the bible it is in Jesus.

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

and so men have no life, as for the bible all the religions of this world and these forums are testament to the confusion that reigns by men who place it above and before God Himself, God is not the author of confusion, 44000 religious denominations who preach the bible and a different gospel cant be wrong ..can they???

Gods world will never die, for if it did, we would no longer exist. even when the bible is no longer His word will still be alive.
a very unscriptural post.
 
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Enoch111

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If we are under the impression that the scriptures are the final authority, the tie-breaker during these days...we are behind the times.
This is what Catholics believe. But it is not true.
 

FHII

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That being said, there is no verse I know of that promises we are going to receive all truth as in special revelation as the Apostles
What about:

1 John 2:20 KJV
But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

This is 1 John... Written to " little children"... Not the apostles.

I agree that we are not all Apostles and not on their level. That doesn't mean we are on a lesser level, but rather a different level with a different job and purpose which is no less important.

Yes, in John 16 he was talking to the Apostles; I am not denying that, by the way. But what do you make of the reference I gave?
 

ScottA

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This is what Catholics believe. But it is not true.
No, you don't have that right either. They think Peter was the Rock of ages, and that they alone carry the water of the gospel of Truth, through a succession of men of flesh.
 
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FHII

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Therefore, the scriptures, yes, even the elementary principles of Christ...once they are elementary to our learning - are to be "left" behind, that we may go on to "perfection"...which comes by "the Spirit of truth", or not at all.
I don't know where I was when this discussion started, but I would've jumped on some points here.

I notice in your quotation of Hebrews 6 you included the word "discussion":

"Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ,

What I noticed is that you later said:

Therefore, the scriptures, yes, even the elementary principles of Christ...once they are elementary to our learning - are to be "left" behind,

The scripture you quoted didn't say we are leave behind (abandon?) The elementary principles. It says we are to leave the discussion of it. They are the foundation. You cannot leave the foundation. Once the foundation is solid, then you can build on it.

Now then, what are you going to build on that foundation, knowing that if the foundation can't support it, it will fail?
 

aspen

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I don't know where I was when this discussion started, but I would've jumped on some points here.

I notice in your quotation of Hebrews 6 you included the word "discussion":



What I noticed is that you later said:



The scripture you quoted didn't say we are leave behind (abandon?) The elementary principles. It says we are to leave the discussion of it. They are the foundation. You cannot leave the foundation. Once the foundation is solid, then you can build on it.

Now then, what are you going to build on that foundation, knowing that if the foundation can't support it, it will fail?

Development of doctrine?

Ok that was a joke....
 

Wafer

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2 Peter 1:3 King James Version (KJV)
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

All things, get it? Anything you hear from the spirit has to either repeat scripture or agree with it. Either that or it does not pertain unto life and godliness.
 

SkyWriting

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We often hear that the test of any comment or doctrine is scripture, and certainly it is a good test. It's just not the last word, nor is it the best test.

It would only be mature to show which passages disagree with you in your OP.
But you don't.


John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Acts 17:11
Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

2 Timothy 3
And how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Matthew 4:4
But he answered, “It is written, “‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”

Revelation 22:18
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

Romans 15:4
For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

Psalm 119
How can a young man keep his way pure? By guarding it according to your word. With my whole heart I seek you; let me not wander from your commandments! I have stored up your word in my heart, that I might not sin against you. Blessed are you, O Lord; teach me your statutes! With my lips I declare all the rules of your mouth.

Joshua 1:8
This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success.

John 1:14
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Proverbs 30:5
Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.

Deuteronomy 4:2
You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it,
that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you.

Deuteronomy 8:2-3
And you shall remember the whole way that the Lord your God has led you these forty years in the wilderness, that he might humble you, testing you to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep his commandments or not. And he humbled you and let you hunger and fed you with manna, which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that he might make you know that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by every word that comes from the mouth of the Lord.

James 1:21
Therefore put away all filthiness and rampant wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.

1 Thessalonians 2:13
And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.

John 17:17
Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.

Galatians 5:14
For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Matthew 22:36-40
“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

Psalm 119:1-176
Blessed are those whose way is blameless, who walk in the law of the Lord! Blessed are those who keep his testimonies, who seek him with their whole heart, who also do no wrong, but walk in his ways! You have commanded your precepts to be kept diligently. Oh that my ways may be steadfast in keeping your statutes!

1 Kings 2:3
And keep the charge of the Lord your God, walking in his ways and keeping his statutes, his commandments, his rules, and his testimonies, as it is written in the Law of Moses, that you may prosper in all that you do and wherever you turn,
 

Episkopos

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The bible is often abused and misused by bad motives. It is used to re-enforce that which the bible testifies against.But then the bible doesn't claim to be the truth...it proclaims Jesus as the living Truth.

The bible isn't God...but it speaks about God and from God.

The bible has no authority of itself
. If you read from the bible..."be healed" (even quoting chapter and verse) does that force a healing on a person? Look how many people believe the bible is the be all and end all and yet don't lift a finger to obey or conform to it's teachings. But the bible speaks of the authority of God and His Spirit...healing the sick, raising the dead etc. The bible has never done anything...it is a book.

The bible cannot be wielded by the carnal man. It is spiritually discerned. But people will try to interpret it nevertheless.

The bible doesn't bring unity...it divides people. The word is alive and discerns us. So if we have a bad motive...then the bible will bring that out. If we have a good discernment...the bible will bring that out too. Many think they understand the bible according to what is written. But that is false. One needs to know God to understand what is written. They who claim bible knowledge apart from revelation are liars...and will ignore many verses to affirm one verse they think they understand.

It is the life of Christ in the Spirit that brings unity...not the bible. So it says in the bible.
 

Helen

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2 Peter 1:3 King James Version (KJV)
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

All things, get it? Anything you hear from the spirit has to either repeat scripture or agree with it. Either that or it does not pertain unto life and godliness.

Agree, as long as you agree that God can and does do what He wants , where He wants , how He wants , and to whom He wants.

He has spoken to me in the many years I have walked with Him...but not by quoting a scripture verse to me ( although often it is via a verse)

..Once He spike clearly saying ( and I heard a chucking though it... :) )
I was complaining to myself about a certain situation that I thought should be different...
He said clearly- "There is a God, and that God is not you."
 

ScottA

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I don't know where I was when this discussion started, but I would've jumped on some points here.

I notice in your quotation of Hebrews 6 you included the word "discussion":



What I noticed is that you later said:



The scripture you quoted didn't say we are leave behind (abandon?) The elementary principles. It says we are to leave the discussion of it. They are the foundation. You cannot leave the foundation. Once the foundation is solid, then you can build on it.

Now then, what are you going to build on that foundation, knowing that if the foundation can't support it, it will fail?
My point was not unlike your own...or Paul's. That point, however, was that we are not to continue or remain mulling over the elementary principles, as some would have us do. But rather to literally "leave" them and "press on." Which is not to say that they are to be abandoned. But just as Jesus went to the Father, leaving the world without leaving us, we too are to be about leaving the world and "following" Jesus, which must be done "in spirit", for God is spirit, and that is all that Jesus committed to the Father in going to Him. All of which is the greater point of Paul's discussion, and mine.
 
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FHII

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My point was not unlike your own...or Paul's. That point, however, was that we are not to continue or remain mulling over the elementary principles, as some would have us do. But rather to literally "leave" them and "press on." Which is not to say that they are to be abandoned. But just as Jesus went to the Father, leaving the world without leaving us, we to are to be about leaving the world and "following" Jesus, which must be done "in spirit", for God is spirit, and that is all that Jesus committed to the Father in going to Him. All of which is the greater point of Paul's discussion, and mine.
Fair enough, and I agree. Thanks for the clarification.