Slaying the two witnesses

[michaelvpardo]

@Naomi25 It may be said that Reformed theology has a combination of the order of logic and the fire of Scripture. True to an extent; in the end, I'm not really Reformed, but appreciate Biblically based Reformed theology.

I've agreed with most points from reformation theology, but it falls flat and is unable to reconcile scripture to itself. Martin Luther, who brought us the reformation, was not able to reconcile chapter 14 of Zechariah to his eshcatoloy. If we're assuming that the bible is inerrant, then the error resides in Luther's thinking (which was notably racist and antisemitic. )

 

[michaelvpardo]

The Bible never identifies who the 2 witnesses are or even gives a clue about their identities. If someone tries to act like they know, they are lying and being presumptuous. Moses and Elijah are in their graves waiting for Christ's return, so it's definitely not them.

While I think that the OP is just wild fantasy and that the last 2 witnesses are modern saints, I wouldn't be dogmatic about Moses and Elijah being in the grave. We see them appear with Jesus briefly on the mount of transformation and I would not be inclined to dismiss their appearance as illusory. We also know from Scripture that Enoch walked with God and "he was not, for God took him."
We can only make sure assertions about what scripture says, not what it omits.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Okay, let me get this straight:

Two churches are clothed in sackcloth - like the OT prophet John the Baptist wore - and kill those who attack them by fire preceding out of their mouths, and two churches can stop it from raining, and two churches are killed, and lie dead in the streets for 3.5 days, and are resurrected then taken up to heaven?

Or, 144,000 Jews who, btw, follow Jesus everywhere He goes, do the same thing? Burn those attacking them by fire? All 144,000 are killed, though Jesus is right there with them - lie dead in the streets 3.5 days, then resurrected and are taken up to heaven- and this after Jesus already resurrected them once already?

Really?

And did you miss that both Elijah and Enoch were taken alive up into the heavens?

It would seem very likely that the only two people who were ever taken to heaven without dying, weren’t just taken to make an interesting Sunday school story. but to be the two witnesses during the tribulation.

Allow me to introduce you to David Guzik, who explains why the two witnesses are men who the symbols of the two candlesticks and two olive trees are applied to, by using and citing, scholarship on the issue:

The ministry of the two witnesses.

“And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.” These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth. And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.

a. My two witnesses: This introduces two of the more interesting characters of Revelation, the two witnesses. The character of their ministry is prophetic (they will prophesy); they preach and demonstrate repentance (clothed in sackcloth), and they have an effective ministry (I will give power).

i. The two witnesses indeed ministry with power. “Such power, in fact, that they are able to witness for 1,260 days in spite of the antagonism of the world.” (Walvoord)

b. These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands: The witnesses have an unique, continual empowering from the Holy Spirit, as shown in Zechariah’s olive trees and oil lamps picture (Zec 4:2-3; Zec 4:14).

i. The passage from Zechariah had its first application to two men in Zechariah’s day: Joshua and Zerubbabel. “Just as these two witnesses were raised up to be lampstands or witnesses for God and were empowered by olive oil representing the power of the Holy Spirit, so the two witnesses of Revelation 11 will likewise execute their prophetic office.” (Walvoord)

ii. In the picture from Zechariah, oil lamps are filled directly from olive trees which “pipe” oil right to the lamps. This is a picture of continual, abundant supply. If we will be witnesses, we must first have something to witness - our own personal encounter with Jesus Christ. Then, we must have the power of the Holy Spirit to bring forth the story of what we have witnessed effectively.

iii. “In this book of the Revelation the Holy Ghost borrows all the elegancies and flowers in the story of the Old Testament, thereby to set out the story of the New in succeeding ages.” (Trapp)

c. And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies: The two witnesses have special protection from God, similar to Elijah’s in 2 Kings 1.

d. These have power to shut heaven . . . they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire: The two witnesses have the power to bring both drought and plague, similar to the power Elijah (Jas 5:17-18) and Moses (Exodus 7-12) had.

e. In the ancient Greek grammar, all the nouns used to speak of the two witnesses in this passage are in the masculine gender. The two witnesses are definitely two men.

2. (Rev 11:7-10) The death of the two witnesses.

When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves. And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.

Maranatha

I can't be dogmatic about it, but I think that the 2 last witnesses give testimony against Christ's last enemies, those hosts of spiritual wickedness in the heavenly places.
I believe this because Christ doesn't return until the last of His enemies are placed under His feet and the last of His enemies are those that remain unaddressed by the gospel of salvation.

 

[michaelvpardo]

The two witnesses are the last two saints of the church age left alive. The word Witnesses is Martys in the Greek, the same word used to describe the saints who overcome Satan, The same ones who are persecuted in the fifth seal..... We are all witnesses, in that respect, but the two witnesses are the last two saints left standing in the end.

Like John the Baptist, who was just first century man, so too will the two witnesses be. And like John they will be empowered by the spirits of the Prophets of Old, With John the Baptist being empowered by the spirit of Elijah.

Of the Original apostles, Only John did not suffer a martyrs death, dying in His Old Age. His spirit will be one that empowers one of the two witnesses. The Other is likely Elijah, Or Zerubbabel As Per Scripture. The transition from Revelation 10 to Revelation 11 will tell you John Is one of the two witnesses. Scripture also tells us Elijah will precede the coming of the King, and Zerubbabel is also said to the Signet of His coming. (Malachi 4:5-6, Haggai 2:22-23). All that aside, the two witnesses will be humans who are alive during the end time not reincarnated historical figures, and these men will be empowered by the Spirit of John, Zerubbabel, and Elijah. It is my Opinion that the coming of Elijah is specific for the Jewish People and He is not one of the two witnesses for this reason as his ministry comes after the church age ends.

John as a witness would break scripture.
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"
God doesn't break His word.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Just because Moses wrote his own epitaph, does not mean he died. He also told them to not go looking for any body. Since no body was given to Satan to place in sheol, Moses could have been translated just like Enoch, or rode to heaven in the same chariot Elijah did. We were never told, "the rest of the story". It also states Moses was in perfect health. He was punished, unable to go any further into the blessings of the Promised land. He was never sentenced to die. His body was already changing on Mt. Sinai. They had to cover his face to hide the brilliance from being with God. IMO, I think Enoch and Elijah are the same person. Elijah was named as a tishbite. The word means sojourner. I think it was Enoch sent back to earth as Elijah. In fact that Elijah would come more than once. Now Jesus claimed John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah, and the disciples seemed to stop wondering. We know John the Baptist was not literally Elijah.

Could it be similar in Revelation to the OT scenario given? Could John have come to this time like Enoch came as Elijah, and could the church have a similar spokesperson like Moses? Who knows? Then there was Joshua and Zerubbabel, 2 totally different named witnesses.

5 And Moses the servant of the Lord died there in Moab, as the Lord had said. 6 He buried him in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is. Deuteronomy 34:5-6
Is the bible wrong or are you confused?

 

[farouk]

I've agreed with most points from reformation theology, but it falls flat and is unable to reconcile scripture to itself. Martin Luther, who brought us the reformation, was not able to reconcile chapter 14 of Zechariah to his eshcatoloy. If we're assuming that the bible is inerrant, then the error resides in Luther's thinking (which was notably racist and antisemitic. )

It's good to keep searching the Scriptures; we are not bound by the logical schemes that men might sometimes superimpose upon Scripture...

 

[michaelvpardo]

It's good to keep searching the Scriptures; we are not bound by the logical schemes that men might sometimes superimpose upon Scripture...

I agree with you completely. While people can imagine any kind of weird interpretation of scripture, the scriptures are the only writing inspired by God and consequently must be without spiritual error and entirely true (spiritually.) I say "spiritually " because they were written to people without understanding of natural science or its implications. Eg: the world does not literally have 4 corners, stars are typically as "great" as the sun or larger, etc.
The language of scripture is understood to be that which was understandable for it's time and it's awesome that it's truth remains true regardless of the weakness of its language in terms of our understanding of the physical world.

 

[Curtis]

I can't be dogmatic about it, but I think that the 2 last witnesses give testimony against Christ's last enemies, those hosts of spiritual wickedness in the heavenly places.
I believe this because Christ doesn't return until the last of His enemies are placed under His feet and the last of His enemies are those that remain unaddressed by the gospel of salvation.

When Jesus comes in flaming fire with wrath and vengeance against evil doers, He personally takes care of His enemies.

Shalom Aleichem

 

[David H.]

John as a witness would break scripture.
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"
God doesn't break His word.

Lazarus Died twice. Point being, Nothing is impossible with God..... consider Jesus' Own words as well regarding the "beloved Apostle"...."Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me." (John 21:22).... There is also the possibility of john being translated there just as James his brother was to the Ethiopian Eunuch, And Just like John was taken up to heaven.

 

[michaelvpardo]

When Jesus comes in flaming fire with wrath and vengeance against evil doers, He personally takes care of His enemies.

Shalom Aleichem

How does He do that if His enemies are in the heavenly places and He's here?
So, tell me, if the body of christ doesn't do Christ's work, why are we here?

 

[michaelvpardo]

Lazarus Died twice. Point being, Nothing is impossible with God..... consider Jesus' Own words as well regarding the "beloved Apostle"...."Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me." (John 21:22).... There is also the possibility of john being translated there just as James his brother was to the Ethiopian Eunuch, And Just like John was taken up to heaven.

I think you mean Philip, not John, being "translated" to the presence of the Ethiopian eunuch, but yes, with God all things are possible. My question though, is what would even be the point of bringing back a couple of OT saints, when there are thousands of born again adopted sons of God walking around the planet? Why do you consider one saint more significant than another? God is no respecter of persons and those OT saints weren't different from the saints today?

 

[Curtis]

How does He do that if His enemies are in the heavenly places and He's here?
So, tell me, if the body of christ doesn't do Christ's work, why are we here?

You’re here to make disciples of all men, which includes doing what Jesus did of meeting physical needs of healing from sickness and feeding the hungry, and then meeting their spiritual need of salvation.

Are you in the kingdom now, sect?

Because scripture is clear that the church doesn’t build the kingdom, and make the world good so Jesus can come again - evil and evil people wax worse and worse, and times will get extremely perilous, and then Jesus comes, wipes out evil doers, and He sets up His kingdom.

2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;




2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;




Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Maranatha

 

[Taken]

Slaying the two witnesses
OP ^

Yes, for 3.5 years they shall witness the Word of God in Jerusalem, fulfilling their service and then be killed.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[David H.]

I think you mean Philip, not John, being "translated" to the presence of the Ethiopian eunuch, but yes, with God all things are possible. My question though, is what would even be the point of bringing back a couple of OT saints, when there are thousands of born again adopted sons of God walking around the planet? Why do you consider one saint more significant than another? God is no respecter of persons and those OT saints weren't different from the saints today?

I Agree the two witnesses will be modern believers, But they, Like John the Baptist who had the Spirit of Elijah, will empower them.

 

[Truth7t7]

I Agree the two witnesses will be modern believers, But they, Like John the Baptist who had the Spirit of Elijah, will empower them.

There's Going To Be An End Times Persecution, The Beast And His Kingdom Are The Target Of God's Empowered (Two Witnesses)

The Great Tribulation Will Come Upon The Wicked World, While The (Sealed Church) Is Protected

The (Sealed Church) will be present on earth and protected, when wicked men are tormented 5 months, desiring to die as death flees

All saved believers are (Sealed) by God, Eph 1:13, 4:30

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

It Was Commanded, Only Those Without God's Seal Will Be Tormented, The Sealed Church Is Protected

Revelation 9:3-6KJV
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Plagues upon The Beast and his Kingdom, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

Revelation 11:3-6
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

 

[David H.]

There's Going To Be An End Times Persecution, The Beast And His Kingdom Are The Target Of God's Empowered (Two Witnesses)

Yes, the two witnesses will take the Blame for the Plagues upon the Wicked during that time. But they will not be the only ones. The beast will make war on the saints as well and overcome them with death and imprisonment etc. But the faithful Body of the church will be protected, as the saints will stand in the gap.

I Had a dream several years ago from the Lord pertaining to this. I Saw a single tree blocking a Tank, the tree was easily uprooted by the tank although the tank was slowed down by that single tree. Then I saw other trees rise up and the tank would knock a few over but it could not progress very fast. Then i saw a forest of Oaks, big and strong, which halted the Tank altogether. He then Led me to read Isaiah 61:3 from my ESV, which I will quote from the ESV:

to grant to those who mourn in Zion—
to give them a beautiful headdress instead of ashes,
the oil of gladness instead of mourning,
the garment of praise instead of a faint spirit;
that they may be called oaks of righteousness,
the planting of the LORD, that he may be glorified. (Isaiah 61:3, ESV)

Please note this is the Part of this Prophecy which Jesus quoted (Isaiah 61) and applied to himself, But stopped before reaching this point. The Lord Gave me to understand that these trees are the saints who stand in the face of the Tanks of the beast, First there are few, and then More and then a forest, all to protect the vulnerable parts of the Body.

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes, the two witnesses will take the Blame for the Plagues upon the Wicked during that time. But they will not be the only ones. The beast will make war on the saints as well and overcome them with death and imprisonment etc.

The "Saints" represent the (Two Witnesses) not the (Church) as you falsely suggest, Revelation 11:7 And Revelation 13:7 Is Exactly The Same Reference In "Parallel" Teachings

At The Final Day Of Earths Existence, The (Two Witnesses) Will Be Overcome And Killed, As The Final Hours Unfold, To The 3RD Woe And Second Coming

The Future 3.5 Year Tribulation Will Be Controlled By The (Two Witnesses) Through Plagues, A Complete Remake Of Moses/Aaron Against Pharaoh Of Egypt

(The Two Witnesses)

(Revelation) 11:7KJV
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

(The Two Witnesses)

(Revelation) 13:7KJV
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

 

[David H.]

The "Saints" represent the (Two Witnesses) not the (Church) as you falsely suggest, Revelation 11:7 And Revelation 13:7 Is Exactly The Same Reference In "Parallel" Teachings

At The Final Day Of Earths Existence, The (Two Witnesses) Will Be Overcome And Killed, As The Final Hours Unfold, To The 3RD Woe And Second Coming

The Future 3.5 Year Tribulation Will Be Controlled By The (Two Witnesses) Through Plagues, A Complete Remake Of Moses/Aaron Against Pharaoh Of Egypt

(The Two Witnesses)

(Revelation) 11:7KJV
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

(The Two Witnesses)

(Revelation) 13:7KJV
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

The saints and the faithful are two distinct parts of the Body of Christ, You have that partly right. (Ephesians 1:1) The saints are not Just the two witnesses though they are both saints alive at that time, Just as John the Baptist was a man alive at the time of Christ yet he could have been Elijah.

Where you make your mistake, and many of the Prophecy pundits do is that you equate the beast of Revelation 13 with the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit. This is the big mistake most make when it comes to identifying the Beast of Revelation 13, they try and force the characteristics of Abaddon, The fallen angel, onto the beast of revelation 13 who is a man empowered by Satan, the Dragon. Western Christianity and particularly fundamentalism has this misunderstanding in that they do not know fully the teachings on the fallen angels, Some even deny their existence all together.

Legion, is the fallen angel that is the Locust army, Azazel is the fallen angel that is chained to the Bottomless pit in the wilderness east of Jerusalem, also known as Abaddon. And there are numerous others involved in the end times, as they will be released briefly for judgment. (1 Corinthians 6:3)

 

[Truth7t7]

The saints and the faithful are two distinct parts of the Body of Christ, You have that partly right. (Ephesians 1:1) The saints are not Just the two witnesses though they are both saints alive at that time, Just as John the Baptist was a man alive at the time of Christ yet he could have been Elijah.

Where you make your mistake, and many of the Prophecy pundits do is that you equate the beast of Revelation 13 with the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit. This is the big mistake most make when it comes to identifying the Beast of Revelation 13, they try and force the characteristics of Abaddon, The fallen angel, onto the beast of revelation 13 who is a man empowered by Satan, the Dragon. Western Christianity and particularly fundamentalism has this misunderstanding in that they do not know fully the teachings on the fallen angels, Some even deny their existence all together.

Legion, is the fallen angel that is the Locust army, Azazel is the fallen angel that is chained to the Bottomless pit in the wilderness east of Jerusalem, also known as Abaddon. And there are numerous others involved in the end times, as they will be released briefly for judgment. (1 Corinthians 6:3)

Yes (The Beast) out of the sea will be a literal individual human man, who is identified by (Personal Pronouns) He, His, Him

Revelation 13:1-8KJV
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[Timtofly]

5 And Moses the servant of the Lord died there in Moab, as the Lord had said. 6 He buried him in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is. Deuteronomy 34:5-6
Is the bible wrong or are you confused?

I said Moses wrote his own epitaph. He was not dead when he wrote it.

People are wrong who claim Moses did not write those words.