So....The New Earth and Heaven

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, daq. (What does that stand for, by the way? Just curious.)

Blasphemy will get you everywhere that your heart desires CRF-T Dead. :)

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Retrobyter do you not understand from Devarim 11:18 what it means when he says "you shall lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul"? Phylacteries is your interpretation of the passage, which you have received from your fathers, and if that is the interpretation which you choose to uphold then you are bound by it, to uphold it, for as you should well know, (contrary to the popular carnal minded modern shepherds) Torah is by no means done away. How then are you any different from the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes? Yet the heart of Moshe was circumcised; pierced all the way through, just as were the two tables of stone which were written with the Finger of God. Then from the circumcised heart of Moshe flows the rest of Torah because his heart contained "new valves" (supernally speaking because it was pierced completely through) allowing the Spirit of the Word to flow through. Your fathers ate manna in the wilderness, and are dead, for they ate manna according to the eyes and mind of the flesh to fill their bellies for a day. Yet my fathers also ate manna in the wilderness and they Live because they ate the manna of the Spirit which is the true manna which comes down from heaven, (which is Messiah). God is not the God of the dead but of the Living; and do not kid yourself, you are nowhere near an Orthodox Jew. Speaking of "near" have you never read 2 Peter 3:8 in your Transliteration Bibles which you so often quote from?

2 Peter 3:8 KJV
8. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with [GSN#3844 para] the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Because of other passages, (such as Revelation 20:4) the natural and carnally minded man immediately takes this passage and assumes to himself the greatest possible reward he can imagine for himself, which would be a thousand year reign of literal physical flesh; dominating the globe in a world wide planetary dominion-kingdom, which interpretation is, again, taken from his own fleshly interpretation of Revelation 20:4. It is called circular reasoning because the man is trapped within his own mindset and can see nothing else. However the passage from Peter does not say what he thinks it says because when he reads "one day is WITH the Lord as a thousand years" he naturally assumes that it means "one day is ACCORDING to the Lord as a thousand years". If only he would repent and buy some eye salve from the Master he might be able to see that this is not at all what the passage states but rather, taken in the light of the other passages which have already been quoted herein, (and in the Light of Scripture as a whole) what this passage states is that "mia hemeras" "the first day BESIDE the Lord is as it were a thousand years". This is clear because in the opening of the passage Peter writes the word for the "primary numeral one" which is "heis" and states "Let not this one [heis-hen] thing be hidden from you" then employs "mia" which therefore does not mean "one" but rather "first" because the author already used the primary numeral heis-hen in the opening of the same sentence. Likewise "para" does not mean "according to" but rather "nearness to" ["with" or "beside" the Lord in this context].

2 Peter 3:8 TUA
8. Hen de touto me lanthaneto humas, agapetoi, hoti mia hemera para Kurio hos chilia ete kai chiliaete hos hemera mia.

Original Strong's Ref. #1520
Romanized heis
Pronounced hice
(including the neuter [etc.] hen); a primary numeral; one:
KJV--a(-n, -ny, certain), + abundantly, man, one (another), only, other, some. See also GSN1527, GSN3367, GSN3391, GSN3762.

Original Strong's Ref. #3391
Romanized mia
Pronounced mee'-ah
irregular feminine of GSN1520; one or first:
KJV--a (certain), + agree, first, one, X other.

Original Strong's Ref. #3844
Romanized para
Pronounced par-ah'
a primary preposition; properly, near; i.e. (with genitive case) from beside (literally or figuratively), (with dative case) at (or in) the vicinity of (objectively or subjectively), (with accusative case) to the proximity with (local [especially beyond or opposed to] or causal [on account of]:
KJV--above, against, among, at, before, by, contrary to, X friend, from, + give [such things as they], + that [she] had, X his, in, more than, nigh unto, (out) of, past, save, side...by, in the sight of, than, [there-]fore, with. In compounds it retains the same variety of application.

If the natural man could stop sinning for even a single day then even he would have fulfilled his course of a thousand year reign WALKING BESIDE the Lord. Likewise he might begin to understand that if the Lord appears to him even just once that this is so valuable that Solomon perceived it as like having lived a thousand years. Likewise the carnal and fleshly mind would then begin to dissipate, and eventually be dissolved, being melted away by the glory and power of God through his Word. The same would surely not then be demanding his "literal thousand year reign" of glorified flesh upon the earth because he would know that he is being ungrateful just like the murmurers and complainers who died off in the wilderness even though they were of the children of Israel. Is there no one here willing to walk in Messiah according to the Spirit as also Paul preached and taught? :)

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Sure, I understand Hadvariym (Deuteronomy) 11:18 well.

Hadvariym 11:18
18 Vsamtem et dvaaray eeleh `al lvavkhem v`al nafshekhem uwqshartem otaam l'owt `al yedkhem vhaayuw lTowTaafot beeyn `eeyneeykhem.
JPS Tanakh (transliterated)


18 Vsamtem = 18 And-you-shall-put
et = (direct object follows)
dvaaray = my-words
eeleh = these-ones
`al = against/upon
lvavkhem = your-core
v`al = and-against/upon
nafshekhem = your-lives
uwqshartem = and-(you)-tie
otaam = them
l'owt = for-a-sign
`al = against/upon
yedkhem = your-hand
vhaayuw = and-they-may-be
lTowTaafot = to/for-phylacteries
beeyn = between
`eeyneeykhem. = your-eyes.

(And wherever you see "you" or "your" above, that is the second-person PLURAL.)
The Hebrew word "leevaav," from which is formed the word "lvavkhem," is similar to the Greek word "kardia" and the Latin word "cor." These words mean the "CENTER of one's thoughts!" Indeed, our word "core" comes from the Latin word. While these words were often translated as "heart," they are NOT talking about the pump in our chests! (But, you already knew that.)

The Hebrew word "nafshekhem" is formed from the word "nefesh," meaning "one that breathes." Thus, the word literally means "your-breathers," i.e. "your-lives." To understand this better one must go back to B'reeshiyt (Genesis) 2:7:

Genesis 2:7
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
KJV

B'reeshiyt 2:7
7 Vayiytser YHWH Elohiym et haa'aadaam `aafaar min haa'adaamaah vayipach b'apaayv nishmat chayiym vayhiy haa'aadaam l-nefesh chayaah.
JPS Tanakh (transliterated)

7 Vayiytser = 7 And-formed
YHWH = YaHuWH/ADONAI
Elohiym = God
et = (direct object follows)
haa'aadaam = the-man
`aafaar = of-dust
min = from
haa'adaamaah = the-ground
vayipach = and-breathed
b'apaayv = in-his-nostrils
nishmat = a-breath
chayiym = of-lives
vayhiy = and-he-became
haa'aadaam = the-man
l-nefesh = to/for-breather
chayaah. = living.
JPS Tanakh (transliterated)

The key is that the breath (nishmat) was joined to his body (haa'aadaam, geviyah) and he BECAME a "living breather" (nefesh chayaah). And, the "breath" (nishmat) comes from the "wind" or "stiff breeze" (ruach) of God!

This is what happened in Ezekiel 37:9-10.

Also, consider the reverse…

Job 34:14-15
14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.
KJV

Thus, if God takes away His ruach (spirit; wind) and His nishmat (breath), a person will go back to being a lifeless body that will return to dust!

That's what "spirit" and "soul" mean. A "spirit" (ruach) is the "wind" or a "stiff breeze" or a "forceful blowing." A "soul" (nefesh) is a "creature that breathes." And, a "breath" (nishmat) is the actual "air one breathes." They are NOT talking about the "immaterial parts" of a human being, unless by analogy! And, since the very usage of "immaterial parts" is itself an analogy, one should DEFINITELY NOT use them to support some further analogy! To do so is to risk GREAT damage to the text!

If B is analogous of A, and C is analogous of B, then C is TWICE REMOVED from A! With that degree of flexibility, anyone can compound the analogies ad infinitum and create a whole WORLD of fiction and it will SELDOM be close to A! Human beings are GOOD story-tellers, but that makes us LOUSY reporters. We ALWAYS tell what we observe with a slant! That's why the Scriptures say "every man [is] a liar!" (Rom. 4:3). (That's also why I don't put much stock in commentaries.)

The picture you added is nice, but the message you're trying to convey with it is tainted! It's not an accurate translation because the Greek word is "mia," not "proota!" It's "one," not "first!" I've checked in about 20 different versions, and NONE of them use the word "first!" It's a CARDINAL number, NOT an ORDINAL!

Also, the verse, as you've represented it, does not fit with the context!

You won't fool me, but such teaching may fool someone else! SHAME ON YOU for propagating lies!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Shalom, daq. (What does that stand for, by the way? Just curious.)

Maybe Delusional Antichrist Quack? :)

 

[Retrobyter]

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Shalom, Enoch.

daq you pretty much stated my belief, I fully expect the Lord to return in my lifetime. If He dose I expect to go through the tribulation,as for the nations that the Lord will rule, I suppose they will be the evil people that make it through the tribulation. The Bible tells us who the morning star used to be, and I can't over come anything in this fleshly body,that's why I wait to be clothed with my glorified body.

I'm glad you're sticking with the Scriptures. There may be "evil people" who make it through the tribulation, but there will also be innocents and gullible people who make it through the tribulation, as well.

Those of us who claim the name of the Messiah or the Christ, believers, whether Jew or Gentile, need to avoid dichotomism. We are so good at splitting the world of human beings in half - the righteous vs. the unrighteous, the Jew vs. the Gentile, the believer vs. the unbeliever - that we forget that there are SHADES of righteousness, that there are Jews and there are Isra'elites who are not Jews, that there are believers and unbelievers and unbelievers IN THE STAGES OF BECOMING believers. To use the analogy of the "new birth," one doesn't go from nothingness - <POOF!> - to birth! There's a growth process in the uterus - the womb - that takes NINE MONTHS! Is the child in the womb born? No. Is it a child? YES!!! It has all the genetic make-up from its parents to survive and thrive as a NEW human being with its own unique DNA! Isn't that our argument against abortion? When did this new individual acquire this new mix of DNA? At conception!

So, when does a person become a new creation? At the new birth? I would suggest that God has been working in that person's life a LONG time earlier than that! How long? Who's to say? Only God knows how long He's been forming the groundwork in that person's life to bring him or her to the point of believing! It's probably NOT "nine months," but it still takes TIME!

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Shalom, ChristRoseFromTheDead.

Maybe Delusional Antichrist Quack? :)

Funny, but remember: he's probably a believer and therefore a brother! Try not to be too judgmental or cause your brother to offend.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Funny, but remember: he's probably a believer and therefore a brother! Try not to be too judgmental or cause your brother to offend.

Not being judgmental at all. GOD is his judge. A spiritual man, however, does judge (discern, make a distinction between good and evil) all.

Now the spiritual one discerns all, but he himself is judged by no one. 1 Corinthians 2:15

In other words, a spiritual person discerns everything, but no man is judged by any man except Christ.

 

[daq]

Shalom, daq. (What does that stand for, by the way? Just curious.)

You do not see the reference number provided above the two fishes?

Sure, I understand Hadvariym (Deuteronomy) 11:18 well.

Hadvariym 11:18
18 Vsamtem et dvaaray eeleh `al lvavkhem v`al nafshekhem uwqshartem otaam l'owt `al yedkhem vhaayuw lTowTaafot beeyn `eeyneeykhem.
JPS Tanakh (transliterated)


18 Vsamtem = 18 And-you-shall-put
et = (direct object follows)
dvaaray = my-words
eeleh = these-ones
`al = against/upon
lvavkhem = your-core
v`al = and-against/upon
nafshekhem = your-lives
uwqshartem = and-(you)-tie
otaam = them
l'owt = for-a-sign
`al = against/upon
yedkhem = your-hand
vhaayuw = and-they-may-be
lTowTaafot = to/for-phylacteries
beeyn = between
`eeyneeykhem. = your-eyes.

(And wherever you see "you" or "your" above, that is the second-person PLURAL.)
The Hebrew word "leevaav," from which is formed the word "lvavkhem," is similar to the Greek word "kardia" and the Latin word "cor." These words mean the "CENTER of one's thoughts!" Indeed, our word "core" comes from the Latin word. While these words were often translated as "heart," they are NOT talking about the pump in our chests! (But, you already knew that.)

The Hebrew word "nafshekhem" is formed from the word "nefesh," meaning "one that breathes." Thus, the word literally means "your-breathers," i.e. "your-lives." To understand this better one must go back to B'reeshiyt (Genesis) 2:7:

Genesis 2:7
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
KJV

B'reeshiyt 2:7
7 Vayiytser YHWH Elohiym et haa'aadaam `aafaar min haa'adaamaah vayipach b'apaayv nishmat chayiym vayhiy haa'aadaam l-nefesh chayaah.
JPS Tanakh (transliterated)

7 Vayiytser = 7 And-formed
YHWH = YaHuWH/ADONAI
Elohiym = God
et = (direct object follows)
haa'aadaam = the-man
`aafaar = of-dust
min = from
haa'adaamaah = the-ground
vayipach = and-breathed
b'apaayv = in-his-nostrils
nishmat = a-breath
chayiym = of-lives
vayhiy = and-he-became
haa'aadaam = the-man
l-nefesh = to/for-breather
chayaah. = living.
JPS Tanakh (transliterated)

The key is that the breath (nishmat) was joined to his body (haa'aadaam, geviyah) and he BECAME a "living breather" (nefesh chayaah).

You won't fool me, but such teaching may fool someone else! SHAME ON YOU for propagating lies!

You change the Scripture to "man became a living breather" and call me a liar? Why do the fleshmongers always have to make it personal? It is not about me against you, or you against me, but rather a discussion of the Scriptures and what they truly mean.

Original Strong's Ref. #1851
Romanized daq
Pronounced dak
from HSN1854; crushed, i.e. (by implication) small or thin:
KJV--dwarf, lean[-fleshed], very little thing, small, thin.

This "crushed" comes from HSN#1854 daqaq which in my case was abbreviated to "daqq".

Original Strong's Ref. #1854
Romanized daqaq
Pronounced daw-kak'
a primitive root [compare HSN1915]; to crush (or intransitively) crumble:
KJV--beat in pieces (small), bruise, make dust, (into) X powder, (be, very) small, stamp (small).

No doubt the Most High prompted you to ask this question at this very point in the conversation. Not because it is what you probably assumed it was but because the same has everything to do with the Revelation 20:4 conversation above and the word pelekizo. Yochanan the Immerser was not "pelekizo-truncated" (which is supernal in meaning) but rather he was physically and literally beheaded or decapitated which is "apokephalizo".

Matthew 14:10 KJV
10. And he sent, and beheaded [GSN#607 apokephalizo] John in the prison.

Original Strong's Ref. #607
Romanized apokephalizo
Pronounced ap-ok-ef-al-id'-zo
from GSN0575 and GSN2776; to decapitate:
KJV--behead.

Check in every other instance where the beheading of Yochanan is recorded in the Gospel accounts and the same word "apokephalizo" will be found. The word pelekizo employed in Revelation 20:4 is "to truncate" but does not necessarily mean only the head, (which is kephale and one of the compound words of apokephalizo). So then if one had only been studious enough to inquire in the Word and of the Word as for the reasons why two different words are employed concerning the physical beheading of Yochanan as opposed to what is stated in Revelation 20:4, then the same might have found the following information:

Original Strong's Ref. #3990
Romanized pelekizo
Pronounced pel-ek-id'-zo
from a derivative of GSN4141 (meaning an axe); to chop off (the head), i.e. truncate:
KJV--behead.

Original Strong's Ref. #4141
Romanized plesso
Pronounced place'-so
apparently another form of GSN4111 (through the idea of flattening out); to pound, i.e. (figuratively) to inflict with (calamity):
KJV--smite. Compare GSN5180.

Original Strong's Ref. #4111
Romanized plasso
Pronounced plas'-so
a primary verb; to mould, i.e. shape or fabricate:
KJV--form.

So you see pelekizo is to truncate but in the sense of to beat, hammer, mold, shape, and concerns "truncating" or "circumcising" ones own "unruly members" of his own body-household so as to make his house conform to the commandments and doctrine of the Master Yeshua. Daqq is much the same, only most of my beatings and crushings I neither expected, nor desired, nor performed. And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

1) You shall go through great tribulation.
2) You shall not worship the wild beast.
3) You shall not worship the image-ikon of the wild beast.
4) You shall not receive the mark.
5) You shall be fully truncated through the Testimony of Yeshua.
6) You shall be fully truncated through the Word of the Theou, YHWH.

PS ~ Be faithful unto death Enoch and when the Shepherd causes his staff to Passover the transparent Sea of glass having been mingled with baptismal fire the "good iron" axehead will swim to the surface and stand in his lot at the end of the days.

2 Kings 6:4-6
4. So he went with them. And when they came to Jordan, they cut down trees.
5. But as one was felling a beam, the axe head fell into the water: and he cried, and said, Alas, master! for it was borrowed.
6. And the man of Elohim said, Where fell it? And he showed him the place. And he cut down a tree, and cast it in thither; and the iron did swim.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, daq.

You do not see the reference number provided above the two fishes?



You change the Scripture to "man became a living breather" and call me a liar? Why do the fleshmongers always have to make it personal? It is not about me against you, or you against me, but rather a discussion of the Scriptures and what they truly mean.

Original Strong's Ref. #1851
Romanized daq
Pronounced dak
from HSN1854; crushed, i.e. (by implication) small or thin:
KJV--dwarf, lean[-fleshed], very little thing, small, thin.

This "crushed" comes from HSN#1854 daqaq which in my case was abbreviated to "daqq".

Original Strong's Ref. #1854
Romanized daqaq
Pronounced daw-kak'
a primitive root [compare HSN1915]; to crush (or intransitively) crumble:
KJV--beat in pieces (small), bruise, make dust, (into) X powder, (be, very) small, stamp (small).

No doubt the Most High prompted you to ask this question at this very point in the conversation. Not because it is what you probably assumed it was but because the same has everything to do with the Revelation 20:4 conversation above and the word pelekizo. Yochanan the Immerser was not "pelekizo-truncated" (which is supernal in meaning) but rather he was physically and literally beheaded or decapitated which is "apokephalizo".

Matthew 14:10 KJV
10. And he sent, and beheaded [GSN#607 apokephalizo] John in the prison.

Original Strong's Ref. #607
Romanized apokephalizo
Pronounced ap-ok-ef-al-id'-zo
from GSN0575 and GSN2776; to decapitate:
KJV--behead.

Check in every other instance where the beheading of Yochanan is recorded in the Gospel accounts and the same word "apokephalizo" will be found. The word pelekizo employed in Revelation 20:4 is "to truncate" but does not necessarily mean only the head, (which is kephale and one of the compound words of apokephalizo). So then if one had only been studious enough to inquire in the Word and of the Word as for the reasons why two different words are employed concerning the physical beheading of Yochanan as opposed to what is stated in Revelation 20:4, then the same might have found the following information:

Original Strong's Ref. #3990
Romanized pelekizo
Pronounced pel-ek-id'-zo
from a derivative of GSN4141 (meaning an axe); to chop off (the head), i.e. truncate:
KJV--behead.

Original Strong's Ref. #4141
Romanized plesso
Pronounced place'-so
apparently another form of GSN4111 (through the idea of flattening out); to pound, i.e. (figuratively) to inflict with (calamity):
KJV--smite. Compare GSN5180.

Original Strong's Ref. #4111
Romanized plasso
Pronounced plas'-so
a primary verb; to mould, i.e. shape or fabricate:
KJV--form.

So you see pelekizo is to truncate but in the sense of to beat, hammer, mold, shape, and concerns "truncating" or "circumcising" ones own "unruly members" of his own body-household so as to make his house conform to the commandments and doctrine of the Master Yeshua. Daqq is much the same, only most of my beatings and crushings I neither expected, nor desired, nor performed. And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

1) You shall go through great tribulation.
2) You shall not worship the wild beast.
3) You shall not worship the image-ikon of the wild beast.
4) You shall not receive the mark.
5) You shall be fully truncated through the Testimony of Yeshua.
6) You shall be fully truncated through the Word of the Theou, YHWH.

PS ~ Be faithful unto death Enoch and when the Shepherd causes his staff to Passover the transparent Sea of glass having been mingled with baptismal fire the "good iron" axehead will swim to the surface and stand in his lot at the end of the days.

2 Kings 6:4-6
4. So he went with them. And when they came to Jordan, they cut down trees.
5. But as one was felling a beam, the axe head fell into the water: and he cried, and said, Alas, master! for it was borrowed.
6. And the man of Elohim said, Where fell it? And he showed him the place. And he cut down a tree, and cast it in thither; and the iron did swim.

First, thank you for the explanation of your handle. I wasn't "assuming" anything about your moniker; I was honestly searching for an answer. No, actually I missed the meaning of the caption above the picture of the fish, partly because I didn't understand at the time that HSN stood for Hebrew Strong's Number. Thus, it was treated as an unimportant, cryptic message, and I glossed over it. So, I do appreciate you taking the time to explain it, and now that I know what it means, I like it! I do it every time I have tomato soup! I always have to dawqaq crackers in my soup!

Second, about your statement, "You change the Scripture to 'man became a living breather' and call me a liar?": As I've quoted before, "Let God be true and EVERY man (including myself) a liar!" (Romans 3:4.) So, I'm not worried about your implication that I'm a liar, but I am concerned that you would think I was "changing the Scripture to 'man became a living breather.'" I have changed NOTHING. All I've done is to explain what the words mean on a fundamental level and make some simple substitutions! It's a simple substitution of the prime definition of a word - its etymology - for the word itself.

See, the word ruach, for instance, means the "wind" or a "breeze," just as it was translated in the Complete Jewish Bible for Genesis 3:8:

Genesis 3:8
8 They heard the voice of Adonai, God, walking in the garden at the time of the evening breeze, so the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of Adonai, God, among the trees in the garden.
CJB

Many other English versions use "in the cool of the day," but the wording is "l-ruwach hayowm." Literally, it should translate word-for-word to "to a wind of the day." However, when some versions don't know what to do with the word in an obscure passage, they will substitute the less-understood word "spirit," serving merely to complicate matters.

And, for the verse to which you referred in your statement above, Genesis 2:7, "nefesh" should be translated closer to how the New International Version translated it:

Genesis 2:7
7 the Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
NIV

Again, the wording in Hebrew is "haa'aadaam l-nefesh chayaah," which translates word-for-word to "the-man to-a-breathing-being living." The fact that some versions prefer to translate it "man became a living soul" only serves to complicate the meaning of the words! Now, one has to ask the question, "What does 'soul' mean?" or "What is a 'soul'?"

Can't you see that I'm just trying to undo the years of damage to the words? Year after year, decade after decade, century after century, layers of meaning have been added to the simple words originally used in the Bible, until now, they are so over-crusted with fabricated meanings that they hardly resemble what the words originally meant! I'm simply trying to peal away the layers of the onion and get back to the CORE of what the words meant.

Most dictionary definitions will define a word this way: "In this context, it means [this]; in this other context, it means [that]; in this other context, ... ." My word studies focus on the CORE of what the word means. I ask the question, "What can the word mean so that it fits EVERY context?" And then, I look up EVERY verse that uses that particular Hebrew/Aramaic, or Greek word to discover and to test that definition. Frequently, that process takes a word all the way down to its etymology. Where did the word come from? What is its fundamental meaning and usage? And, for most words in the original languages, that takes them back to their agricultural usage in the Oriental society from which the people sprang.

They were a people who were familiar with animal husbandry and herding and farming. Avraham himself lived in tents, like modern Bedouins do today, following their herds grazing on open lands 4,000 years ago. Today, ranchers must own the lands upon which they graze their livestock in order to preserve their right to the lands. Back then, the population was so sparse that it didn't matter, but even then, God told Avraham that He would give him ownership of all the land wherever he set his foot. So, he traveled up and down in the Land that is blasphemously called "Palestine" today.

Now, about your rabbit-trail on "the Revelation 20:4 conversation above and the word pelekizo," take the words down to their compositions:

"Apokefalizoo" is the verb form of the two words "apo," meaning "off" or "away from," and "kefalee," meaning a "head." Thus, it is the act of taking a person's "head off!" This word was used four times in the Scriptures: Matthew 14:10; Mark 6:16, 27; and Luke 9:9, each time translated in the KJV as "beheaded."

"Pelekizoo" is the verb form meaning, according to Strong's, "to chop off (the head), i.e. truncate," as you said. HOWEVER, take it further! What does "truncate" mean? It simply means "to shorten by chopping part off." When one truncates a tree, it means to take it back to its TRUNK (hence, the word "TRUNCate")! It means to lop off the branches and make it shorter. When one truncates a PERSON, it means to lop off the head and make HIM or HER shorter ... by about a FOOT! :blink: (gulp!) This word is ONLY found in Revelation 20:4 and there it was translated in the KJV as "beheaded," as well.

And, you're right about "pleessoo," spelled pi-lambda-eta-sigma-sigma-omega, meaning "to pound" as with a hammer or a fist, but "pelekizoo" means "to CHOP OFF" as with a blade such as a knife, a sword, or an ax. That's why it's a different word! Furthermore, the easiest way to kill a person with such an action is to lop off the head!

"Pelekizoo" is not a "supernal word." (What does that even mean?!) That's just goofy!

Finally, your scenario that you paint with a myriad of Scripture passages plastered together unnaturally is exactly what I was talking about.

"Be faithful unto death Enoch and when the Shepherd causes his staff to Passover the transparent Sea of glass having been mingled with baptismal fire the "good iron" axehead will swim to the surface and stand in his lot at the end of the days"??!!! Talk about a hodgepodge!

 

[daq]

Now, about your rabbit-trail on "the Revelation 20:4 conversation above and the word pelekizo," take the words down to their compositions:

"Apokefalizoo" is the verb form of the two words "apo," meaning "off" or "away from," and "kefalee," meaning a "head." Thus, it is the act of taking a person's "head off!" This word was used four times in the Scriptures: Matthew 14:10; Mark 6:16, 27; and Luke 9:9, each time translated in the KJV as "beheaded."

"Pelekizoo" is the verb form meaning, according to Strong's, "to chop off (the head), i.e. truncate," as you said. HOWEVER, take it further! What does "truncate" mean? It simply means "to shorten by chopping part off." When one truncates a tree, it means to take it back to its TRUNK (hence, the word "TRUNCate")! It means to lop off the branches and make it shorter. When one truncates a PERSON, it means to lop off the head and make HIM or HER shorter ... by about a FOOT! :blink: (gulp!) This word is ONLY found in Revelation 20:4 and there it was translated in the KJV as "beheaded," as well.

And, you're right about "pleessoo," spelled pi-lambda-eta-sigma-sigma-omega, meaning "to pound" as with a hammer or a fist, but "pelekizoo" means "to CHOP OFF" as with a blade such as a knife, a sword, or an ax. That's why it's a different word! Furthermore, the easiest way to kill a person with such an action is to lop off the head!

"Pelekizoo" is not a "supernal word." (What does that even mean?!) That's just goofy!

You went the wrong way when it comes to the nephesh-soul because the soul is the man and not the body. The soul is the ONLY thing Yeshua ever warns us to guard and keep because it is the only thing said to be in danger of loss. Show me where he warns us of losing the spirit, wind, breath, or anything other than the soul? Likewise where in the greatest commandment are we commanded to love the Lord our God with "all of our spirit" or "all of our breath"? "HEAR, O ISRAEL, The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment." Likewise you do not appear to even realize the theological cocktail of problems you have concocted for yourself when you change nephesh-soul into "a breather" in the very beginning. When you do such a thing you also change the meaning throughout the Scripture; this is especially critical in places where the passage you changed is quoted, as in 1 Corinthians 15:45, where zoe-zao, (life-living) psuche, (soul) and pneuma, (wind, breath, spirit) are employed and cannot be misconstrued as you have haphazardly done. As for the portion of your comments which I have quoted above these things are not a game, or goofy, or inconsequential in any way. Why is that you ignored the passage from Mark which I quoted? Here is another similar passage:

Matthew 18:7-10 KJV
7. Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
8. Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
9. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
10. Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

Do you not see any "supernal chopping" going on here? Or do you plan to literally cut off your own hand or foot since you do not comprehend or wish to acknowledge supernal things? Do you plan to use an axe, a hacksaw, or an electric skill saw? And what about that eye that offends you? Will you be using a fork or a hot iron to pluck it out? Can you honestly, (wihtin yourself) consider yourself a disciple of Yeshua if you continually reject his doctrine in the ways wherein you have already done time and again in this forum? What about Paulos? Do you not understand what he means when he writes MORTIFY the deeds of the body? "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Romans 8:13). And the similar statement from Paulos concerns our own "members" which are the same "members" of your own household that Yeshua also warns about. Paulos writes again: "MORTIFY therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is IDOLATRY" (Colossians 3:5). This is more likely what Yeshua means when he speaks of one making himself "a eunuch" for the kingdom of heaven, which is therefore spoken to all believers whether male or whether female; because it is supernal in meaning.

Matthew 19:12 KJV
12. For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

Therefore let every disciple of Yeshua cut off the evil shepherds from his own midst and there are more than one:

NEPHESH-SOUL FOR NEPHESH-SOUL
EYE FOR EYE
HAND FOR HAND
FOOT FOR FOOT

Otherwise you will remain a dead man walking, O Sardis . . .

Zechariah 11:8-17 KJV
8. Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me.
9. Then said I, I will not feed you: that that dieth, let it die; and that that is to be cut off, let it be cut off; and let the rest eat every one the flesh of another.
10. And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people.
11. And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the Lord.
12. And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.
13. And the Lord said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the Lord.
14. Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.
15. And the Lord said unto me, Take unto thee yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd.
16. For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, which shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces.
17. Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.

Every man is a land, every man is a house, every man has spiritual eyes with which he feeds . . .
Therefore if your right eye is utterly darkened how great is the darkness inside you! Pluck! Pluck! Chop! Chop! :)

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, daq.

You went the wrong way when it comes to the nephesh-soul because the soul is the man and not the body. The soul is the ONLY thing Yeshua ever warns us to guard and keep because it is the only thing said to be in danger of loss. Show me where he warns us of losing the spirit, wind, breath, or anything other than the soul? Likewise where in the greatest commandment are we commanded to love the Lord our God with "all of our spirit" or "all of our breath"? "HEAR, O ISRAEL, The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment." Likewise you do not appear to even realize the theological cocktail of problems you have concocted for yourself when you change nephesh-soul into "a breather" in the very beginning. When you do such a thing you also change the meaning throughout the Scripture; this is especially critical in places where the passage you changed is quoted, as in 1 Corinthians 15:45, where zoe-zao, (life-living) psuche, (soul) and pneuma, (wind, breath, spirit) are employed and cannot be misconstrued as you have haphazardly done. As for the portion of your comments which I have quoted above these things are not a game, or goofy, or inconsequential in any way. Why is that you ignored the passage from Mark which I quoted? Here is another similar passage:

Matthew 18:7-10 KJV
7. Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
8. Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
9. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
10. Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

Do you not see any "supernal chopping" going on here? Or do you plan to literally cut off your own hand or foot since you do not comprehend or wish to acknowledge supernal things? Do you plan to use an axe, a hacksaw, or an electric skill saw? And what about that eye that offends you? Will you be using a fork or a hot iron to pluck it out? Can you honestly, (wihtin yourself) consider yourself a disciple of Yeshua if you continually reject his doctrine in the ways wherein you have already done time and again in this forum? What about Paulos? Do you not understand what he means when he writes MORTIFY the deeds of the body? "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Romans 8:13). And the similar statement from Paulos concerns our own "members" which are the same "members" of your own household that Yeshua also warns about. Paulos writes again: "MORTIFY therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is IDOLATRY" (Colossians 3:5). This is more likely what Yeshua means when he speaks of one making himself "a eunuch" for the kingdom of heaven, which is therefore spoken to all believers whether male or whether female; because it is supernal in meaning.

Matthew 19:12 KJV
12. For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

Therefore let every disciple of Yeshua cut off the evil shepherds from his own midst and there are more than one:

NEPHESH-SOUL FOR NEPHESH-SOUL
EYE FOR EYE
HAND FOR HAND
FOOT FOR FOOT

Otherwise you will remain a dead man walking, O Sardis . . .

Zechariah 11:8-17 KJV
8. Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me.
9. Then said I, I will not feed you: that that dieth, let it die; and that that is to be cut off, let it be cut off; and let the rest eat every one the flesh of another.
10. And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people.
11. And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the Lord.
12. And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.
13. And the Lord said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the Lord.
14. Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.
15. And the Lord said unto me, Take unto thee yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd.
16. For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, which shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces.
17. Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.

Every man is a land, every man is a house, every man has spiritual eyes with which he feeds . . .
Therefore if your right eye is utterly darkened how great is the darkness inside you! Pluck! Pluck! Chop! Chop! :)

Actually, I didn't go the wrong way with the definition of "nefesh"; it's not a "soul" as some "immaterial part of a person - the real person within - that goes on to 'Heaven' when one dies." When you see the word "nefesh" in the Tanakh or the word "soul" in the OT of some English version, simply substitute "life" for "soul." That will fix the meaning of most of the passages.

See, the point I was making is that the "nefesh" of an individual is the COMBINATION of the body and the "ruach," the "spirit." Literally, this just means that the body that is producing a breeze in breathing is a living breather. The "living breather" is the COMBINATION of the body and the breeze or the body and its breath. Now, if you want to think of some part of an individual that is "immaterial," then that would be the "ruach," the "spirit," and the "soul" is simply the COMBINATION of the body and the "spirit." Thus, the "soul" is the WHOLE person, body and "spirit." In your list above, substitute "life" for "soul" and you have it:

NEPHESH-LIFE FOR NEPHESH-LIFE
EYE FOR EYE
HAND FOR HAND
FOOT FOR FOOT

Thus, the retribution in matters of judgment is that whoever wounds another spitefully was to receive an equal wound as a sentence. If the person caused a death - the taking away of LIFE, then HIS life was forfeit! That's the death penalty!

You're right that "the soul is the man"; however, that means that "the body+spirit is the man." The man is INCOMPLETE without His body! That's why the RESURRECTION is so important! We are not told to anticipate "going to Heaven"; we are told to anticipate the RESURRECTION!

A lot of people quote Luke 16 regarding the rich man and Elezar (Lazarus) when describing "hell" (and some of that is probably going on in Brothertom's threads), but that account CANNOT be talking about the person without his body! Look at all the body parts mentioned! "Eyes," "tongue," "finger," and many others are implied, such as "ears" for hearing, the larynx (voice box) to call out to Avraham, Elezar's legs to convey him to the other side when the request was to "send Lazarus," and the list goes on! This rich man (and Elezar, too, for that matter) have their bodies! Thus, this is a scene AFTER the resurrection!

Regarding Matthew 18:7-10, no, I don't see any "supernal chopping" going on here. How many times does YOUR own hand or foot "cause you to offend," i.e. to literally commit a crime? However, if one DOES have such a member, don't you think that the literal removal of said member would be better than experiencing the judgment of God against him or her at the Messiah's judgment seat? And, THAT is what is meant in these verses! The Greek phrase is "ee duo cheiras ee duo podas echonta bleetheenai eis to pur to aioonion," which means, "or two hands or two feet having to-be-thrown into the fire of-that pertaining-to-[the-Messianic]-Age."

Can I honestly, (within myself) consider myself a disciple of Yeshua` if I continually reject His doctrine in the ways wherein I "have already done time and again in this forum?" Are you meshuggah?! I do NOT reject His doctrine at all! What I reject is YOUR INTERPRETATION of what YOU feel His doctrine must be! Don't be so egocentric to think that when I disagree with you I'm also disagreeing with Him! He and I are doing just fine together. Hate to burst your bubble, but you're NOT all that!

What about Paulos? Do I not understand what he means when he writes MORTIFY the deeds of the body? Of course, I understand what it means! I question whether YOU do, however. "Mortifying" or killing the DEEDS of the body is NOT the same as "killing the body!" "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Romans 8:13). He's talking about nipping the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life in the bud. If you cut off the natural appetites, you ARE mortifying the deeds of the body.

You said, 'And the similar statement from Paulos concerns our own "members" which are the same "members" of your own household that Yeshua also warns about.' When Paulos said, "MORTIFY therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is IDOLATRY" (Colossians 3:5), he was indeed talking about the same thing as in Romans 8:13; HOWEVER, although in this passage he called them "members," he went on to list them as DEEDS! Also, they are NOT the same "members" about which Yeshua` warned in Matthew 10:36! Look at the FULL context about what Yeshua` was talking:

Matthew 10:1-11:1
10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
2 Now the names of the twelve apostles (sent-ones) are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, inquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.
12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.
13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.
11:1 And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples, he departed thence to teach and to preach in their cities.
KJV

That's not figurative speech! He was telling them AT THAT TIME in His Offer of the Kingdom NOT to go to the Ethnoi-Goyim-Gentiles (non-Isra'elites) or to the Samaritoi-Shomromiym-Samaritans (half-breed remnant of the Northern Kingdom); they were to go to the "lost sheep of the house of Isra'el," the members of Isra'el who were back from the Babylonian-Persian Captivity in the Southern Kingdom of Y'hudah (which consisted of more than just Y'hudiym or Jews)!

So, Yeshua` was not talking about ANYTHING having to do with the Ethnoi-Goyim-Gentiles! Timing is everything when it comes to understanding the meaning of a particular context. This was early in Yeshua`s "ministry" or offering of the Kingdom to the Jews. He was sending out His apostoloi-"sent ones" to the various towns and villages of Y'hudah to declare to them that the Messiah is coming to their town. They became His emissaries since Yochanan the immerser (John the Baptist) was no longer available. They were His HERALDS!

When you said, 'This is more likely what Yeshua means when he speaks of one making himself "a eunuch" for the kingdom of heaven, which is therefore spoken to all believers whether male or whether female; because it is supernal in meaning,' I can understand that one might be grossed out and in denial, but these were LITERAL eunuchs - guys who dedicated themselves in the extreme to the message about the Kingdom from the sky! Why literal? Simply look at the kings with whom they were familiar: the kings (pharaohs) of Egypt had their eunuchs, the kings of Bavel (Babylon) had their eunuchs, and the kings of Persia had their eunuchs. They were the slaves and trusted advisors to the kings; Dani'el, Chananyahu, Misha'el, and `Azaryahu were such eunuchs. These were given Persian names: Belteshazzar, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego. It was a great place of honor among those nations.

Remember: Not just those who became Yeshua`s disciples anticipated the arrival of the victorious and reigning Messiah! Many of the Isra'elites understood the prophecy of Yesha`yahu and EMBRACED it!

Isaiah 56:3-7
3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the Lord, speak, saying, The Lord hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
4 For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
KJV

So, enough of this "supernal" nonsense. Take the Scriptures at face value!

 

[daq]

So, enough of this "supernal" nonsense. Take the Scriptures at face value!

My understanding is at "face value" when taking into consideration the whole of the writings. One cannot possibly take everything literal. For the same reason your mindset must twist definitions of words to subvert the truth in support of a physical and fleshly paradigm which sees all things physical and according to the eyes of the flesh:

Romans 7:14-25 KJV
14. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25. I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Understand we have TWO LAWS at our disposal, (Torah is the Spirit "rod of iron").
James uses the same analogy of "members" when he speaks of the tongue:

James 3:1-6 KJV
1. My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
2. For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.
3. Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body.
4. Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth.
5. Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
6. And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, daq.

My understanding is at "face value" when taking into consideration the whole of the writings. One cannot possibly take everything literal. For the same reason your mindset must twist definitions of words to subvert the truth in support of a physical and fleshly paradigm which sees all things physical and according to the eyes of the flesh:

Romans 7:14-25 KJV
14. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25. I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Understand we have TWO LAWS at our disposal, (Torah is the Spirit "rod of iron").
James uses the same analogy of "members" when he speaks of the tongue:

James 3:1-6 KJV
1. My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
2. For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.
3. Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body.
4. Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth.
5. Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
6. And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

Fooey. You wouldn't know "spiritual" if it met you on the street and shook your hand!

Haven't you ever read how much I HATE that word? It doesn't mean what you THINK it means, and you, like SO many others, are not using the word correctly! You can find out its meaning in 1 Corinthians 15.

 

[daq]

Shalom, daq.


Fooey. You wouldn't know "spiritual" if it met you on the street and shook your hand!

Haven't you ever read how much I HATE that word? It doesn't mean what you THINK it means, and you, like SO many others, are not using the word correctly! You can find out its meaning in 1 Corinthians 15.

Yes, of course, you will now proceed to subvert the meaning of that word also!
Otherwise your paradigm cannot survive the Truth of the matter . . . :lol:

 

[Warrior]

EVERYONE: This discussion has gone Faaaaarrrrrrrr off topic. lets stick back to the thread

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Inmate.

EVERYONE: This discussion has gone Faaaaarrrrrrrr off topic. lets stick back to the thread

Sorry about that. The truth is that the New Earth and it's New Sky are dear to my heart and it really galls me to hear someone "spiritualize" away either the New Earth/Sky/Jerusalem eternal state or the Millennium prior to that state. See, God's Word is REPLETE with information regarding both, and STILL people try to "explain them away!" What SHOULD be "explained away" is this idea of "going to heaven when we die!" IF we go anywhere, we would go to the New Jerusalem. However, not having our resurrected bodies, we would not be able to enjoy the experience fully!

Furthermore, for all the wonderful things that will be available to us in the New Earth and the New Jerusalem, there's still a THOUSAND YEARS TO GO, first! What could happen in a THOUSAND YEARS under an enlightened King?!

God gave all of our explorers, discoverers, scientists, and inventors the very understanding necessary to improve our world and help us to understand how to improve it. He gave us WONDERFUL imaginations that have helped us to forge the world we now enjoy! What was once "magic and fantasy" became "science fiction" and "science fiction" has become "science fact!" For as much as mankind likes to take credit for the discoveries and inventions and innovations, it was GOD who gave mankind the insight into HIS Creation!

Lately, I've been building solar panels to power a pump for a drip irrigation system to our garden from the rain water I collect in 12 55-gallon drums; so, I've been bombarded with all sorts of ads for various "free energy systems" and machines, and I've watched a few. They consistently talk about the conspiracy of "big oil companies" and "big electric companies" to suppress free speech and new inventions that could save us thousands of dollars a year in fuel and electricity costs. Whether true or not, consider such inventions and innovations under the rule of the Son of God, the Word who was with God and who WAS God in the beginning! I don't think He would make the same mistakes as "big oil" and "power-hungry electric companies!" There will be FREEDOM to invent and produce!

And, if all the "doom-sayers" on this board are correct and He inherits a world that is devastated, we will NEED such freedom to invent and produce! A thousand years to re-build!

So, when someone takes one of the verses about the Millennium (Rev. 20:4) and twists it to mean anyone who has "truncated but in the sense of to beat, hammer, mold, shape, and concerns 'truncating' or 'circumcising' ones own 'unruly members' of his own body-household so as to make his house conform to the commandments and doctrine of the Master Yeshua," it drives me a little nuts! It makes me want to "beat, hammer, mold, shape" the one who twisted it!

 

[daq]

So, when someone takes one of the verses about the Millennium (Rev. 20:4) and twists it to mean anyone who has "truncated but in the sense of to beat, hammer, mold, shape, and concerns 'truncating' or 'circumcising' ones own 'unruly members' of his own body-household so as to make his house conform to the commandments and doctrine of the Master Yeshua," it drives me a little nuts! It makes me want to "beat, hammer, mold, shape" the one who twisted it!

Your love for the flesh has deceived you:

John 13:12-20 KJV
12. So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?
13. Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
14. If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
15. For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
16. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
17. If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.
18. I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
19. Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.
20. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

You will NEVER rule over another human being in the Kingdom of Heaven.
You appear to follow both a different gospel, (which is no gospel) and a different master, (which is your own mind).
With that please all feel free to continue in your fantasy thread without further interruptions of Scripture truth from myself. :)

 

[Pelaides]

The new jerusalem is a giant spacecraft,the same space craft that talked to moses,the same spacecraft that took up enoch,and elijah,God is coming to live with man in his spacecraft,This may sound loony,but it makes sense.I.M.O.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, daq.

Your love for the flesh has deceived you:

John 13:12-20 KJV
12. So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?
13. Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
14. If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
15. For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
16. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
17. If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.
18. I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
19. Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.
20. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

You will NEVER rule over another human being in the Kingdom of Heaven.
You appear to follow both a different gospel, (which is no gospel) and a different master, (which is your own mind).
With that please all feel free to continue in your fantasy thread without further interruptions of Scripture truth from myself. :)

And your holier-than-thou attitude and false spirituality have deceived you. You don't know what you're talking about because we WILL be co-regents with the Messiah as He rules and reigns over this earth during the 1000 years. If I follow a "different gospel" than yours, then you better check YOUR "gospel!" Yeshua`s gospel was the good news about the Kingdom!

Isaiah 52:7
7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
KJV

Matthew 4:23-24
23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.
24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.
KJV

And, Paul didn't change that gospel when he got a hold on it:

Romans 10:14-15
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
KJV

So, don't be so self-assured that you have the CORRECT "gospel!" The good news (gospel) is "THY GOD REIGNETH!" Many have mis-read the rest of Romans 10, often because of the "Romans Road of Salvation" soul-winning technique. One absolutely MUST remember two things from Scripture: First, "salvation," particularly when the word is used in a prophetic passage, is the "RESCUE" or "DELIVERANCE" of the Jewish people at the return of the Messiah, and second, "salvation" is the wrong word for the "justification by God" that an individual experiences when one has "made His (Yeshua`s) soul an offering for sin!" Rather than use Romans 10, one SHOULD be using 2 Corinthians 5, particularly verse 21, for the "justification by God!"

_____

Shalom, Pelaides.

The new jerusalem is a giant spacecraft,the same space craft that talked to moses,the same spacecraft that took up enoch,and elijah,God is coming to live with man in his spacecraft,This may sound loony,but it makes sense.I.M.O.

The problem in what you say is that it is a bit too simplistic and SOUNDS disrespectful. (I know that it's not.) His "vehicle" (so to speak) is not a "spacecraft," per se. It SUPERSEDES such a "vehicle." God needs no "spacecraft"; however, the New Jerusalem DOES descend from "above-the-sky" and comes out of the "sky," landing upon the New Earth. So, it may SEEM like a spacecraft to you, but it's a CITY, constructed in outer space and designed to land and become a part of the New Earth, probably centered at the coordinates of the old Jerusalem, but MUCH larger!

 

[Pelaides]

Shalom, daq.


And your holier-than-thou attitude and false spirituality have deceived you. You don't know what you're talking about because we WILL be co-regents with the Messiah as He rules and reigns over this earth during the 1000 years. If I follow a "different gospel" than yours, then you better check YOUR "gospel!" Yeshua`s gospel was the good news about the Kingdom!

Isaiah 52:7
7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
KJV

Matthew 4:23-24
23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.
24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.
KJV

And, Paul didn't change that gospel when he got a hold on it:

Romans 10:14-15
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
KJV

So, don't be so self-assured that you have the CORRECT "gospel!" The good news (gospel) is "THY GOD REIGNETH!" Many have mis-read the rest of Romans 10, often because of the "Romans Road of Salvation" soul-winning technique. One absolutely MUST remember two things from Scripture: First, "salvation," particularly when the word is used in a prophetic passage, is the "RESCUE" or "DELIVERANCE" of the Jewish people at the return of the Messiah, and second, "salvation" is the wrong word for the "justification by God" that an individual experiences when one has "made His (Yeshua`s) soul an offering for sin!" Rather than use Romans 10, one SHOULD be using 2 Corinthians 5, particularly verse 21, for the "justification by God!"


_____

Shalom, Pelaides.


The problem in what you say is that it is a bit too simplistic and SOUNDS disrespectful. (I know that it's not.) His "vehicle" (so to speak) is not a "spacecraft," per se. It SUPERSEDES such a "vehicle." God needs no "spacecraft"; however, the New Jerusalem DOES descend from "above-the-sky" and comes out of the "sky," landing upon the New Earth. So, it may SEEM like a spacecraft to you, but it's a CITY, constructed in outer space and designed to land and become a part of the New Earth, probably centered at the coordinates of the old Jerusalem, but MUCH larger!

No disrespect intended,But sometimes its best to keep things simple.The evidence is their for all to see.

 

[Eric E Stahl]

I see when John is talking about New Jerusalem, and it Is written there is no night THERE..I don't see anything that says there is no night cycles when the new earth itself exists.

Does anyone have some scripture?

Hi Inmate,
(((This is at the second coming of Jesus)))
Isaiah 60:1-2, 19-20
1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee.
2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.

(((This is the time of the kingdom age))

19 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.
20 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.

During the kingdom age the sun and moon will stay over Israel in a permanent solar eclipse. The New Jerusalem will be suspended between the moon and the earth in the umbra shadow of the moon.

 

[Rocky Wiley]

Heaven and earth, in prophecy, refers to the temple of God. This was where men and God came to gether. In the Old Testament it was the physical temple in Jerusalem. In the New Testament the temple in within us.

Most people can't understand this, but it is biblical.

 

[Eric E Stahl]

Heaven and earth, in prophecy, refers to the temple of God. This was where men and God came to gether. In the Old Testament it was the physical temple in Jerusalem. In the New Testament the temple in within us.

Most people can't understand this, but it is biblical.

Rocky,

Zechariah 14:6-9
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Are you saying there is no earth during the kingdom age?

The new heavens and earth are the old heavens and earth healed by Jesus for the kingdom age.





Isaiah 65:17-25
17For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

18But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

19And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

(((In the kingdom age life is long but there is death.)))
20There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; (((there is still sin)))but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

21And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.

22They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

23They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.

24And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.

25The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.