So....The New Earth and Heaven

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Eric, and welcome to the discussion!

Hi Inmate,
(((This is at the second coming of Jesus)))
Isaiah 60:1-2, 19-20
1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee.
2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.

(((This is the time of the kingdom age))

19 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.
20 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.

During the kingdom age the sun and moon will stay over Israel in a permanent solar eclipse. The New Jerusalem will be suspended between the moon and the earth in the umbra shadow of the moon.

Actually, that can't be the case, but I like the way you think. Here's some things to think about:

Isaiah 66:22-23
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
KJV

This is at the time of the Kingdom (which is not a mere 1000 years but forever) and there will still be a monthly "new moon," "(ro'sh) chodesh," and a weekly "sabbath," "shabbat." That tells us that the moon and the earth will still be following their normal cycles. We need day-cycles (the rotation of the earth with respect to the sun) to make a week, and we need lunar-cycles (the revolution of the moon with respect to the earth) to make a month.

Also, remember that we have this verse as well:

Isaiah 24:19
23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.
KJV

Although this verse was translated as though it was poetry and the verbs were translated with personification, "chaafraah" means "she shall blush" and "bowshaah" means "she shall pale." These are talking about the moon and the sun respectively. The moon will blush and the sun will pale, and I believe both are by comparison to the light of the King, YHWH, when He reigns in mount Tsiown and in Yerushalayim before His ancients (elders; seniors; old ones) GLORIOUSLY. This is not talking about the first 1000 years of His Kingdom, though; this would be in the eternal state after the Great White Throne Judgment. So, again, the sun and moon are not only present but important in eternity and the New Earth.

Regarding the "blush" of the moon, one of the interesting things about the New Jerusalem is that it is entirely encased in "iaspis" or "jasper." While some have suggested that this might be diamond because the walls are said to be "clear as glass," clarity does NOT determine color, unless the material is significantly thin! The walls are constructed of the material, and so is the first foundation, and the wall is said to be 144 cubits or about 72 yards thick! Although this is "thin" compared to the rest of the city, it is probably only this "thin" at the gates where it can be measured, and it is HARDLY thin compared to gems made of the jasper. "Iaspis" is also a well-known substance in the archaeology of the time when this was written, and it is that substance that we call the "blood" of the bloodstone. While there is no mention of a roof, nor is the city said to be open at the top. Furthermore, there are other clues in the Scripture that suggest a pyramid shape:

Psalm 118:22
22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner (the capstone).
KJV

Zechariah 4:6-7
6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.
7 Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone (pinnacle; capstone of the mountain) thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.
KJV

(Z'kharyahu's tomb is "capped" with a bas-relief of a capstone. You can see it here: http://www.ask.com/wiki/Tomb_of_Zechariah?o=3986&qsrc=999)

Daniel 2:31-45
31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.
32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.
37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
KJV

Most mountains are conical in shape, and a four-sided cone is a pyramid. How else would a stone CUT OUT OF A MOUNTAIN grow to become a mountain? The pyramid shape lends itself well to that explanation.

Furthermore, we are told that it is a 3-dimensional city with a height equal to the length and the width. This suggests that the twelve foundations are foundational LAYERS or LEVELS, that each foundation is another level to the city. The sheer size of the city dictates that the city be some shape OTHER THAN a cube, as some try to describe it. The Scriptures say that it "lieth foursquare" or that it covers a square area; it has a square footprint! They do NOT say that it will be a cube!

First, the city is on the surface of the New Earth for it is said to be aligned with north having four walls that face east, north, south, and west. (Rev. 21:12-20) At 12,000 "stadia" long, wide, and high, a Greek word stemming from the Roman "stadium," we're talking about distances of 1,500 miles, and if that is upon the surface of a New Earth comparable in size to the current earth, then it is a "square" that must be laid out on the curvature of the earth covering a central angle of 1,500 miles / 24,902 miles * 360 degrees = 21.685 degrees. That's HUGE! That means that the direction for "down" in the center of one side of the city will be 21.685 degrees different than the direction for "down" in the center of the opposite side of the city, and the difference will be even MORE pronounced from corner to opposite corner!

So, my point with all of this is that the Lamb, who is the light of the city, and who sits on the throne as the capstone of this city, will be sitting in the pinnacle of the city, shining brighter than the light of the sun! If, the walls of the city are those of a pyramid, they will converge to a point at its peak, and Yeshua` will be shining THROUGH the transparent, red walls of the city! Also, the One sitting upon the Throne is said to ...

Revelation 4:3
3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
KJV

That's a red color seen in both the "iaspis" and in the "sardine" or "sardius" or "sard" stone. Furthermore, He gives off an afterimage aura (a "rainbow") opposite in color, green! Now, can you see why the moon might "blush?" Also, one meaning of that Hebrew verb can be "mixed up" or "confused." This might make for an interesting moon! Instead of simply reflecting the sun, as it does now; it will be reflecting TWO sources, the sun and the Lamb! Thus, its phases will be different! It won't be a simple crescent or gibbous moon anymore; there will be times when it has BOTH!

Hope you (and others) have some fun with this!

 

[Eric E Stahl]

Shalom, Eric, and welcome to the discussion!


Actually, that can't be the case, but I like the way you think. Here's some things to think about:

Isaiah 66:22-23
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
KJV

This is at the time of the Kingdom (which is not a mere 1000 years but forever) and there will still be a monthly "new moon," "(ro'sh) chodesh," and a weekly "sabbath," "shabbat." That tells us that the moon and the earth will still be following their normal cycles. We need day-cycles (the rotation of the earth with respect to the sun) to make a week, and we need lunar-cycles (the revolution of the moon with respect to the earth) to make a month.

Also, remember that we have this verse as well:

Isaiah 24:19
23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.
KJV

Although this verse was translated as though it was poetry and the verbs were translated with personification, "chaafraah" means "she shall blush" and "bowshaah" means "she shall pale." These are talking about the moon and the sun respectively. The moon will blush and the sun will pale, and I believe both are by comparison to the light of the King, YHWH, when He reigns in mount Tsiown and in Yerushalayim before His ancients (elders; seniors; old ones) GLORIOUSLY. This is not talking about the first 1000 years of His Kingdom, though; this would be in the eternal state after the Great White Throne Judgment. So, again, the sun and moon are not only present but important in eternity and the New Earth.

Regarding the "blush" of the moon, one of the interesting things about the New Jerusalem is that it is entirely encased in "iaspis" or "jasper." While some have suggested that this might be diamond because the walls are said to be "clear as glass," clarity does NOT determine color, unless the material is significantly thin! The walls are constructed of the material, and so is the first foundation, and the wall is said to be 144 cubits or about 72 yards thick! Although this is "thin" compared to the rest of the city, it is probably only this "thin" at the gates where it can be measured, and it is HARDLY thin compared to gems made of the jasper. "Iaspis" is also a well-known substance in the archaeology of the time when this was written, and it is that substance that we call the "blood" of the bloodstone. While there is no mention of a roof, nor is the city said to be open at the top. Furthermore, there are other clues in the Scripture that suggest a pyramid shape:

Psalm 118:22
22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner (the capstone).
KJV

Zechariah 4:6-7
6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.
7 Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone (pinnacle; capstone of the mountain) thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.
KJV

(Z'kharyahu's tomb is "capped" with a bas-relief of a capstone. You can see it here: http://www.ask.com/wiki/Tomb_of_Zechariah?o=3986&qsrc=999)

Daniel 2:31-45
31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.
32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.
37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
KJV

Most mountains are conical in shape, and a four-sided cone is a pyramid. How else would a stone CUT OUT OF A MOUNTAIN grow to become a mountain? The pyramid shape lends itself well to that explanation.

Furthermore, we are told that it is a 3-dimensional city with a height equal to the length and the width. This suggests that the twelve foundations are foundational LAYERS or LEVELS, that each foundation is another level to the city. The sheer size of the city dictates that the city be some shape OTHER THAN a cube, as some try to describe it. The Scriptures say that it "lieth foursquare" or that it covers a square area; it has a square footprint! They do NOT say that it will be a cube!

First, the city is on the surface of the New Earth for it is said to be aligned with north having four walls that face east, north, south, and west. (Rev. 21:12-20) At 12,000 "stadia" long, wide, and high, a Greek word stemming from the Roman "stadium," we're talking about distances of 1,500 miles, and if that is upon the surface of a New Earth comparable in size to the current earth, then it is a "square" that must be laid out on the curvature of the earth covering a central angle of 1,500 miles / 24,902 miles * 360 degrees = 21.685 degrees. That's HUGE! That means that the direction for "down" in the center of one side of the city will be 21.685 degrees different than the direction for "down" in the center of the opposite side of the city, and the difference will be even MORE pronounced from corner to opposite corner!

So, my point with all of this is that the Lamb, who is the light of the city, and who sits on the throne as the capstone of this city, will be sitting in the pinnacle of the city, shining brighter than the light of the sun! If, the walls of the city are those of a pyramid, they will converge to a point at its peak, and Yeshua` will be shining THROUGH the transparent, red walls of the city! Also, the One sitting upon the Throne is said to ...

Revelation 4:3
3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
KJV

That's a red color seen in both the "iaspis" and in the "sardine" or "sardius" or "sard" stone. Furthermore, He gives off an afterimage aura (a "rainbow") opposite in color, green! Now, can you see why the moon might "blush?" Also, one meaning of that Hebrew verb can be "mixed up" or "confused." This might make for an interesting moon! Instead of simply reflecting the sun, as it does now; it will be reflecting TWO sources, the sun and the Lamb! Thus, its phases will be different! It won't be a simple crescent or gibbous moon anymore; there will be times when it has BOTH!

Hope you (and others) have some fun with this!

[SIZE=14pt](((The permanent solar eclipse starts before Armageddon)[/SIZE]


11 The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went(from view), and at the shining of thy glittering spear.
12 Thou didst march through the land in indignation, thou didst thresh the heathen in anger.
13 Thou wentest forth for the salvation of thy people(Israel), even for salvation with thine anointed(Saints); thou woundedst the head out of the house of the wicked, by discovering the foundation unto the neck. Selah.(To Armageddon)

 

[Rocky Wiley]

Rocky,

Zechariah 14:6-9
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Are you saying there is no earth during the kingdom age?

Eric,

When God or Jesus uses the words, heaven and earth, he is speaking of the place where he and man meet. That was in the temple at Jerusalem in the Old Testament and is now in us.

When God refers to the world, then that means what we would normally think of as heaven and earth. Scripture says the world is without end.

Not saying that one must be spiritual, but one does have to think as God does, and that is spiritual.

Jesus said that his kingdon is not of this world (notice he does not say heaven or earth here).

 

[Eric E Stahl]

Eric,

When God or Jesus uses the words, heaven and earth, he is speaking of the place where he and man meet. That was in the temple at Jerusalem in the Old Testament and is now in us.

When God refers to the world, then that means what we would normally think of as heaven and earth. Scripture says the world is without end.

Not saying that one must be spiritual, but one does have to think as God does, and that is spiritual.

Jesus said that his kingdon is not of this world (notice he does not say heaven or earth here).

Rocky,

It is true that Jesus kingdom was not of this world then. But it is going to be his kingdom after satan and the bad angels are cast to the earth at the time of the 7th trumpet judgment and third woe. Revelation 11:15 and Revelation 12:7-14.


[SIZE=14pt]Revelation 11:15[/SIZE]
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

[SIZE=14pt]Revelation 12:7-14[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]7[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]9[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]10[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]11[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]12[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]13[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]14[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time(Last half of the tribulation), from the face of the serpent. [/SIZE]

 

[Rocky Wiley]

Rocky,

It is true that Jesus kingdom was not of this world then. But it is going to be his kingdom after satan and the bad angels are cast to the earth at the time of the 7th trumpet judgment and third woe. Revelation 11:15 and Revelation 12:7-14.

Eric,

The book of Revelation is where all prophecy teachers go to interpret it to say what they want it to say. In truth, all prohecy was given for and to the Jews. Jesus told the Jews that judgement was going to come upon their generation. Taking that and more we can then see that the book of Revelation was about the destruction of the old temple in Jerusalem (old covenant, old heaven and earth, old temple) and the coming of New Jerusalem (new bride, new heaven and earth, new temple).

Is this easy to understand? No! But I would ask you not to just reject the above, but study to see that these things are true.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear All,

In the book of Isaiah it is written:

“That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes. For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.”

Isaiah 65:16-18​

​

And also in the book of 2 Peter we read:

“Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

2 Peter 3:13​

​

And finally in the book Revelation John sees:

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.”

Revelation 21:1​

​

Many Christians, if you ask them where they are going after they die will say, “I am going to Heaven”. To them, heaven means that they will go to be with our Father in the realm in which He dwells. But according to the scriptures the eternal home of those who are saved is the New Heavens and the New Earth. The New Heavens and the New Earth is a second creation that God will speak into existence for those who know salvation. Consider this scripture about the bride of Christ in the book of Revelation,

“And I John saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”

Revelation 21:2​

​

Furthermore, the bride is made up of New and Old Testament believers; for the apostle Paul states that we are collectively a chaste virgin espoused (or betrothed) to Christ::

“For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.”

2 Corinthians 11:2​

Therefore, we, the called out ones, come down out of heaven into the New Heavens and New Earth. We change location. While we will be in heaven for a time and will probably have access to that realm as needed it is not our permanent dwelling place.

With this foundational understanding other major doctrines begin to make more sense. For instance, this creation is tainted by sin and corruption. Through Adam sin entered the world and the whole of creation was cursed. As it is written in book of Romans,

“Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.”

Romans 8:21,22​

​

I believe that the curse brought on by Adam and the subsequent destruction of the flood was not merely localized to earth but rather was felt across the entire universe. This is why astronomers see such vast chaos in many corners of the cosmos. This creation is essentially damaged beyond repair, and God has determined that once He harvests the souls of those who believe in His son Jesus Christ He is going to completely destroy it.

As it is written in 1 Peter,

“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”

1 Peter 3:10​

​

People often refuse to believe that God would actually destroy this creation in favor of another one. However, someone who has limitless resources would not refurbish an old item to give as wedding present to His bride but will have the very best newly created. This is also why God speaks of us as a new creature,

“Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.”

2 Corinthians 5:17​

​

It is essential that we become a new creature so that we can dwell in the New Creation because nothing of this old creation can exist there. All that is of this creation shall be burnt up; even the souls of them that refuse to acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord shall dwell in a lake of fire forever. As it is written in the book of Mark:

“And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:”

Mark 9:43​

​

Furthermore, the New Heavens and New Earth is the very reason for the resurrection. As Paul writes in 1 Corinthians,

“Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”

Corinthians 15:50-54​

​

Our bodies are to be resurrected and made immortal. Have you ever wondered why God would go to the trouble of performing this miracle? It is simply because just as we need bodies to interact with this present creation so we will need bodies to interact with the new creation. Our bodies have to be made new and perfect because they will need to function in a new and perfect creation. Perhaps our immortal bodies will be like those we would have had if Adam had never fallen.

Finally, God always gets His way. Even though the Devil tempted Adam and Eve to sin and bring forth corruption into this present Heavens and Earth God will simply pick up where He left off in the New Creation. Essentially, God is going to bring out those who will return to the Garden of Eden through faith in His only begotten Son and place them in a new paradise of God in the New Heavens and New Earth. The tree of life that was withheld from us because of our unbelief will be freely given to us through our faith. As it is written:

“He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.”

Revelation 2:7​

​

And also in the book of Revelation,

“In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.”

“Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.”

Revelation 22:2,14​

​

My friends, this is the joy that is set before us: to be wed to Jesus and live eternally in the presence of God as revealed through our bridegroom. As it is written,

“And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof”

Revelation 21:23​

​

Lastly, we are promised,

“But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.”

1 Corinthians 2:9​

​

Truly, there is nothing on this present earth, whose fashion is passing away, that is worth jeopardizing our chances of making the New Heavens and New Earth our eternal home.

Blessings,

Justin

 

[Eric E Stahl]

Eric,

The book of Revelation is where all prophecy teachers go to interpret it to say what they want it to say. In truth, all prohecy was given for and to the Jews. Jesus told the Jews that judgement was going to come upon their generation. Taking that and more we can then see that the book of Revelation was about the destruction of the old temple in Jerusalem (old covenant, old heaven and earth, old temple) and the coming of New Jerusalem (new bride, new heaven and earth, new temple).

Is this easy to understand? No! But I would ask you not to just reject the above, but study to see that these things are true.

Rocky,
Matthew 24:3-8
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Do you realy believe that this prophecy was only to the Jews?

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Eric.

[SIZE=14pt](((The permanent solar eclipse starts before Armageddon)[/SIZE]


11 The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went(from view), and at the shining of thy glittering spear.
12 Thou didst march through the land in indignation, thou didst thresh the heathen in anger.
13 Thou wentest forth for the salvation of thy people(Israel), even for salvation with thine anointed(Saints); thou woundedst the head out of the house of the wicked, by discovering the foundation unto the neck. Selah.(To Armageddon)

I can understand wanting to stick to a "discovery" that you probably think "came from the LORD." However, it's always wise to TEST your "discoveries" against the original languages to see if what you discovered indeed agrees with the text.

Here's the Hebrew of Chavaquwq's message:

Habakkuk 3:11
11 Shemesh yaareeach `aamad zvulaah l-'owr chitseykhaa
yhaleekhow l-nogah braq chaniytekhaa:
JPS Hebrew-English Tanakh


11 Shemesh = 11 Sun
yaareeach = moon
`aamad = stood
zvulaah = habitation/enclosure
l-'owr = to-light
chitseykhaa = of-your-thunderbolt
yhaleekhow = they-walked
l-nogah = to-brilliance
braq = of-flashing
chaniytekhaa: = your-lance:


11 Sun moon stood habitation/enclosure to-light of-your-thunderbolt
they-walked to-brilliance of-flashing your-lance:

11 Sun [and] moon stood [still in their] habitation/enclosure to [the] light of your thunderbolt;
they walked (on) to [the] brilliance of your flashing lance.

This is not talking about the sun eclipsing the moon any more than it's talking about the sun and moon standing still for a whole day (or longer). It's a personification of these bodies: first they are taken aback by the light of God's thunderbolt; then, they begin to walk (again, to escape) a second bolt!

As is typical for Hebrew poetry, this is a verse written in a couplet. The key are the two verbs in the same case and number and the two words beginning with the lamed (the Hebrew "L"). And, the verbs are contrasts: stand still, walk on.

 

[Eric E Stahl]

Shalom, Eric.


I can understand wanting to stick to a "discovery" that you probably think "came from the LORD." However, it's always wise to TEST your "discoveries" against the original languages to see if what you discovered indeed agrees with the text.

Here's the Hebrew of Chavaquwq's message:

Habakkuk 3:11
11 Shemesh yaareeach `aamad zvulaah l-'owr chitseykhaa
yhaleekhow l-nogah braq chaniytekhaa:
JPS Hebrew-English Tanakh


11 Shemesh = 11 Sun
yaareeach = moon
`aamad = stood
zvulaah = habitation/enclosure
l-'owr = to-light
chitseykhaa = of-your-thunderbolt
yhaleekhow = they-walked
l-nogah = to-brilliance
braq = of-flashing
chaniytekhaa: = your-lance:


11 Sun moon stood habitation/enclosure to-light of-your-thunderbolt
they-walked to-brilliance of-flashing your-lance:

11 Sun [and] moon stood [still in their] habitation/enclosure to [the] light of your thunderbolt;
they walked (on) to [the] brilliance of your flashing lance.

This is not talking about the sun eclipsing the moon any more than it's talking about the sun and moon standing still for a whole day (or longer). It's a personification of these bodies: first they are taken aback by the light of God's thunderbolt; then, they begin to walk (again, to escape) a second bolt!

As is typical for Hebrew poetry, this is a verse written in a couplet. The key are the two verbs in the same case and number and the two words beginning with the lamed (the Hebrew "L"). And, the verbs are contrasts: stand still, walk on.

Retrobyter,

I started a seperate post to discuss the solar eclipse because it shows up in so many prophecies.

Many new bibles and translations are being witten today. I believe the king james traslaters did a better job of traslating the prophecies.

In the king James the prophets agree with each other.

 

[guysmith]

Rocky,
Matthew 24:3-8
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Do you realy believe that this prophecy was only to the Jews?

Hello Eric,

I agree with you on this.

BTW Welcome.

In Yehoshua,
GuySmith

 

[Purity]

http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/13642-a-new-heaven-and-a-new-earth/?hl=heaven

This discussion between Joshua and Truth held some interesting points.

Purity

 

[Rocky Wiley]

Rocky,
Matthew 24:3-8
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Reply
In this case the Greek word translated as world is "aion" - more properly an age. The age the disciples lived in (Law) was coming to an end. I think we all agree that the 'age of law' has passed away.

4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Do you realy believe that this prophecy was only to the Jews?

Erik,

All prophecy was given in the old testament, Jesus came to fulfill all that had been written in those books. This would all be accomplished in that generation he came to.

One must pay attention to the Word for what it says and to whom it is directed in order to propley translate:
Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

Jesus is talking to the Jews of that generation.

Mat 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Jesus again says judgement is coming upon their generation.

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Jesus is now speaking to his disciples,
Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Not all of them would taste death before he returns. Jerusalem and the temple (heaven and earth) was destroyed in 70AD.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Rocky Wiley.

Erik,

All prophecy was given in the old testament, Jesus came to fulfill all that had been written in those books. This would all be accomplished in that generation he came to.

One must pay attention to the Word for what it says and to whom it is directed in order to propley translate:
Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

Jesus is talking to the Jews of that generation.

Mat 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Jesus again says judgement is coming upon their generation.

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Jesus is now speaking to his disciples,
Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Not all of them would taste death before he returns. Jerusalem and the temple (heaven and earth) was destroyed in 70AD.

Sorry, Rocky, but you have a rather "piece-meal" argument, here. First, Matthew 16:28 was fulfilled IN THE VERY NEXT CHAPTER! Not everyone saw it, because not everyone of His disciples was taken with Him up the mountain. That's why there were only "some standing here." Let's look at the ENTIRE context:


Matthew 16:24-17:15
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
17 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.
14 And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying,
15 Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.
KJV

Thus, in context, Yeshua` was talking about His TRANSFIGURATION! That's when they would "SEE" Him "come in His Kingdom," but it was A VISION of what was to come IN THE FUTURE, not the actual Second Coming itself! We can confirm this link in the other two synoptic Gospels, Mark and Luke:


Mark 9:1-14
9 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
6 For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid.
7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
8 And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.
9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.
10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.
11 And they asked him, saying, Why say the scribes that Elias must first come?
12 And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought.
13 But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him.
14 And when he came to his disciples, he saw a great multitude about them, and the scribes questioning with them.
KJV

Luke 9:23-37
23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?
26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.
27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.
33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.
34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.
35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.
37 And it came to pass, that on the next day, when they were come down from the hill, much people met him.
KJV


I hope this doesn't make you too uncomfortable, but the truth is that this is not very well taught in certain circles of Christianity, because they NEED verses like Matthew 16:28 to "support" their teaching that "Christ and His Kingdom came in the first century," which is NOT supported anywhere else!

Secondly, it may seem like a minor point, but the events of Matthew 16 and 17 came BEFORE the words of Matthew 23 (, 24 and 25)! Thus, the prediction of His Coming in Matthew 24 is AFTER the Jews of Jerusalem say, "Blessed [SIZE=11pt]is[/SIZE] he that cometh in the name of the Lord." This comes from the Hebrew phrase, "Baruwkh haba' b'shem YHWH," which means, "Welcome, the-comer in-[the]-name of YHWH," and refers to the Messiah as YHWH'S representative. So, He is YET to come.

Furthermore, we have NOT yet seen the sun, moon, and stars event as Yeshua` predicted in Matthew 24.

 

[Rocky Wiley]

Shalom, Rocky Wiley.




Sorry, Rocky, but you have a rather "piece-meal" argument, here. First, Matthew 16:28 was fulfilled IN THE VERY NEXT CHAPTER! Not everyone saw it, because not everyone of His disciples was taken with Him up the mountain. That's why there were only "some standing here." Let's look at the ENTIRE context:

.

Retro,

Your point is well taken, but it doesn't fit.

Jesus came with a new covenant and to take a new bride. He would not marry a second until the first had passed away. That would not happen until the old had been done away with. That happened in 70 AD. Only some of the disciples were still alive at that time.

 

[Retrobyter]

_____

Shalom, Purity.

http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/13642-a-new-heaven-and-a-new-earth/?hl=heaven

This discussion between Joshua and Truth held some interesting points.

Purity

Well, Truth said,

'1. The first heaven was Jewish Kingdom of God on Earth established under the law of Moses (covenant Deut 32:1 Isa 1:2) presided over by various Kings David being the Righteous King who seed would inherite his throne Luke 1:27 Luke 1:32. That symbolic Heaven and Earth came to an end in the destruction of the Jewish State in A.D. 70 (2 Pet 3:7). The law and the sacrifice removed and the people scattered for 2000 years, regathered and in 1948 Israel became a state.

2. The second "heaven and earth" will be established at Christ's coming with the setting up of the Kingdom of God, the restoration of the Kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6 2 Pet 3:13).

3. The third "heaven and earth" will be at the close of Christ's reign on earth, when a perfected kingdom will be delivered unto the Father by Christ that He (God) might be all and in all (1 Cor. 15:24).'

This is not accurate. The simpler explanation is to let PETER tell us what the "three heavens" are:


2 Peter 3:3-13
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
KJV

So, Peter was saying that the first heavens and earth were before the Flood and perished in the Flood. The second heavens and earth are those that exist now and will perish in the Fire, and the THIRD heavens and earth, in which will dwell righteousness, is yet in the future AFTER the Fire! THIS is a much better explanation than Truth's explanation OR the explanation that the "third heaven" is "out beyond space and time" or "in another dimension" or "God's Abode."

I've been trying to get people to see this for some time now, and a few do get it, but the Greek word "ouranos," which is frequently translated as "heaven" in the KJV and other versions, simply means "the SKY!" Paul used a different Greek word to describe bodies in space (i.e., the sun, moon, and stars, including the New Jerusalem), "epouranios." "Epouranios" combines "ouranos" with the word "epi" meaning "above" and the combination describes objects "pertaining to above-the-sky."

As I've said in other threads, the simplest way to see this is to look at the Greek of Matthew 16:1-4:


Maththaion 16:1-4
1 Kai proselthontes hoi Farisaioi kai Saddoukaioi peirazontes epeerooteesan auton seemeion ek tou ouranou epideixai autois.
2 Ho de apokritheis eipen autois, "Opsias genomenees legete,'Eudia, purrazei gar ho ouranos,'
3 Kai prooi, 'Seemeron cheimoon, purrazei gar stugnazoon ho ouranos'; to men prosoopoon tou ouranou ginooskete diakrinein ta de seemeia toon kairoon ou dunasthe?
4 Genea poneera kai moichalis seemeion epizeetei, kai seemeion ou dotheesetai autee ei mee to seemeion Ioona." Kai katalipoon autous apeelthen.
The Greek New Testament

(The phrase "tou ouranou" is merely the genitive form of the subjective form "ho ouranos." While "ho ouranos" can be the subject of a sentence, "tou ouranou" means "OF the ouranos.")

Here's the KJV translation of these verses:


Matthew 16:1-4
16 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.
2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
KJV

Here's the NIV translation:


Matthew 16:1-4
16 The Pharisees and Sadducees came to Jesus and tested him by asking him to show them a sign from heaven.
2 He replied,a "When evening comes, you say, 'It will be fair weather, for the sky is red,' 3 and in the morning, 'Today it will be stormy, for the sky is red and overcast.' You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times. 4 A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah." Jesus then left them and went away.
NIV

Here's the NASU (he NASB Updated) translation:


Matthew 16:1-4
16 aThe bPharisees and Sadducees came up, and testing Jesus, they casked Him to show them a 1sign from heaven. 2 But He replied to them, "1aWhen it is evening, you say, 'It will be fair weather, for the sky is red.' 3 "And in the morning, 'There will be a storm today, for the sky is red and threatening.' aDo you know how to discern the 1appearance of the sky, but cannot discern the signs of the times? 4 "aAn evil and adulterous generation seeks after a 1sign; and a 1sign will not be given it, except the sign of Jonah." And He left them and went away.
NASU

So, my point is this: Why do the majority of the translations use the word "heaven" in verse 1 for the SAME WORD for which they use "sky" in verses 2 and 3? Does that make ANY sense?! I believe that somebody 'way back when was trying to deceive the people into thinking that "heaven" is different than "sky!" One has to ask oneself, "What did the people who understood the original Koinee Greek think?" All they had was the ONE WORD used four times, not two different words, one used once and the other used three times! Quite simply put, the word "ouranos" means the "sky."

Consider this: It makes SENSE to believe it simply means the "sky." Using 2 Peter 3:3-13 again, how would a Flood of water on the earth, such as Noach and his family experienced, destroy "God's abode?!" BUT, if the word "ouranoi" (the plural of "ouranos") means "skies" above the earth, i.e., the atmosphere around our planet, then it was altered just as much as the land was when the global Flood occurred!

For Paul's statement in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4, it ALSO makes sense to believe he was simply saying the "sky." When you think of how God usually worked in the Tanakh (the OT) to show the future to His prophets, what Paul was describing in these verses is what a prophet experienced! He saw visions about the FUTURE, the THIRD "heaven" (and earth) AFTER THE FIRE! He was not caught "UP" to a present "third heaven"; he was "SNATCHED AWAY" to a FUTURE "third sky!" Although the word "up" is found in 2 Corinthians 12:2 and 4, there is NO corresponding Greek word! That is a word that was SUPPLIED BY THE TRANSLATOR! The words are "harpagenta" which means "snatched away" but was translated as "caught up" in verse 2 and "heerpagee" which means "he was snatched away" but was translated as "he was caught up." Both of these words are forms of the same word, "harpazoo," meaning "to seize." There is NO preposition in the passage that suggests the word "UP!"



NT:726 harpazoo (har-pad'-zo); from a derivative of NT:138; to sieze (in various applications):
KJV - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)


NT:138 haireomai (hahee-reh'-om-ahee); probably akin to NT:142; to take for oneself, i.e. to prefer:
KJV - choose. Some of the forms are borrowed from a cognate hellomai (hel'-lom-ahee); which is otherwise obsolete.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

From the words themselves, we have NO IDEA WHERE or IN WHICH DIRECTION he was taken! The word "UP" was supplied by the translator(s) because "heaven" and "sky" are both "upward"; therefore, he/they decided to "help the reader out" and put the word in. He/they had NO IDEA as to the consequences of his/their simple action! I believe that Paul meant that the man (possibly himself) to whom he is referring was SNATCHED AWAY in the Spirit to the future to see visions of what will be, just as God has done to ANY prophet of God in the past!

The conclusion is that the word "ouranos," which is the main word translated as "heaven" in the Scriptures, really refers to the "sky," the earth's "atmosphere," and that "epouranios," which is often translated "heavenly" as often as "ouranios" is, actually refers to "above-the sky," or what we call "outer space," where the sun, moon, and stars are located. There is NO separate word for "God's abode," per se! And, really, THAT'S OKAY! Where in the whole Universe is God NOT? He is OMNIPRESENT, everywhere all at once! Where is the "heaven" to which we go when we die? First, who says we go ANYWHERE when we die? Second, if we DO go somewhere, wouldn't it make more sense that we would go to the New Jerusalem that is still "under construction" out in space? We won't have our bodies anyway, and according to all the prophecies of a resurrection, that IS important. So, if we DO go there, we are limited in how much we can enjoy it.
Shalom, Rocky Wiley.

Retro,

Your point is well taken, but it doesn't fit.

Jesus came with a new covenant and to take a new bride. He would not marry a second until the first had passed away. That would not happen until the old had been done away with. That happened in 70 AD. Only some of the disciples were still alive at that time.

Actually, brother, it does fit ... quite well, in fact. What you are failing to realize is that the ONLY place where we find the "bride" is the CITY ITSELF in Revelation 21:1-2 and 21:9-10:



Revelation 21:1-2, 9-10
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
...
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
...
KJV

So, you should understand from this that the CITY ITSELF is "the bride, the Lamb's wife!" It doesn't say ANYTHING AT ALL about the people that MAY be within it. (Quite frankly, the Scriptures sound more like the city comes down TO the people already on earth!) How can an inanimate object, no matter how large, be considered to be a "bride?" Simple: The first mention in verse 2 is a simile, and the second mention in verse 9 is a metaphor!

It's prepared LIKE a bride is all decked out for her husband!

 

[Purity]

_____

Shalom, Purity.

ברכות / Greetings Retrobyter

So, Peter was saying that the first heavens and earth were before the Flood and perished in the Flood. The second heavens and earth are those that exist now and will perish in the Fire, and the THIRD heavens and earth, in which will dwell righteousness, is yet in the future AFTER the Fire! THIS is a much better explanation than Truth's explanation OR the explanation that the "third heaven" is "out beyond space and time" or "in another dimension" or "God's Abode."

I've been trying to get people to see this for some time now, and a few do get it, but the Greek word "ouranos," which is frequently translated as "heaven" in the KJV and other versions, simply means "the SKY!" Paul used a different Greek word to describe bodies in space (i.e., the sun, moon, and stars, including the New Jerusalem), "epouranios." "Epouranios" combines "ouranos" with the word "epi" meaning "above" and the combination describes objects "pertaining to above-the-sky."

As I've said in other threads, the simplest way to see this is to look at the Greek of Matthew 16:1-4:

Your understanding of the second heaven and earth perishing in fire is a common one.

Have you not read how the heaven and earth reflect the glory of their Creator? (Psa 19:1). It is man that needs to be transformed, not the physical earth. In fact, Scripture plainly teaches that the physical earth will not be destroyed (Eccl 1:4; Psa 148:6 & Isa 45:18).

Therefore your interpretation must be able to accommodate these Scripture's else it falls down.

God promised Noah that the earth will never again be cursed to the same extent as it was at the Flood (Gen 8:21; Gen 9:12). He declared that such sites as Mt. Zion shall "never be moved" (Psa 125:1). There is no scope, therefore, for the future destruction of the literal heavens and earth in Peter's teaching, and no reason why Yahweh should do this, seeing that His declared intention is to fill the earth with His glory. (Num 14:21)

I wont go into what I also believe the New Heavens and New Earth to be until such time you can accommodate the above Scripture's.

Purity

 

[Eric E Stahl]

ברכות / Greetings Retrobyter


Your understanding of the second heaven and earth perishing in fire is a common one.

Have you not read how the heaven and earth reflect the glory of their Creator? (Psa 19:1). It is man that needs to be transformed, not the physical earth. In fact, Scripture plainly teaches that the physical earth will not be destroyed (Eccl 1:4; Psa 148:6 & Isa 45:18).

Therefore your interpretation must be able to accommodate these Scripture's else it falls down.

God promised Noah that the earth will never again be cursed to the same extent as it was at the Flood (Gen 8:21; Gen 9:12). He declared that such sites as Mt. Zion shall "never be moved" (Psa 125:1). There is no scope, therefore, for the future destruction of the literal heavens and earth in Peter's teaching, and no reason why Yahweh should do this, seeing that His declared intention is to fill the earth with His glory. (Num 14:21)

I wont go into what I also believe the New Heavens and New Earth to be until such time you can accommodate the above Scripture's.

Purity

Eternal Earth

Isaiah 45:16-19
16 They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols.
17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded [SIZE=14pt]world without end.[/SIZE]
18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

148:1-6
1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise ye the LORD from the heavens: praise him in the heights.
2 Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.
3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light.
4 Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens.
5 Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.
6[SIZE=14pt]He hath also stablished them for ever and ever:[/SIZE] he hath made a decree which shall
not pass.


Ecclesiastes
1 The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem.
2 Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.
3 What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun?
4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: [SIZE=14pt]but the earth abideth for ever.[/SIZE]

The earth will will be burned during the tribulation and repaired by Jesus for the kingdom age

Isaiah 65:17-25
17 For[SIZE=14pt], behold, I create new heavens and a new earth[/SIZE]: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

 

[Purity]

Eternal Earth

17 For[SIZE=14pt], behold, I create new heavens and a new earth[/SIZE]: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

You bolded the wrong section of this Scripture.

Isaiah 65:17NET
Isaiah 65:17KJV
Isaiah 65:17ESV

You must first identify what is new about the Heavens and the Earth and then describe precisely what the former things were. Who is the message being spoken too? What is the context of the chapter? What is the overall message speaking about?

Simply posting Scripture without providing an understanding is not rightly dividing the Word of God with care. 2 Tim 2:15

Herewith are a few questions to guide you into the Word of God that is might give you light. Psa 119:130

Purity

 

[Eric E Stahl]

You bolded the wrong section of this Scripture.

Isaiah 65:17NET
Isaiah 65:17KJV
Isaiah 65:17ESV

You must first identify what is new about the Heavens and the Earth and then describe precisely what the former things were. Who is the message being spoken too? What is the context of the chapter? What is the overall message speaking about?

Simply posting Scripture without providing an understanding is not rightly dividing the Word of God with care. 2 Tim 2:15

Herewith are a few questions to guide you into the Word of God that is might give you light. Psa 119:130

Purity

Jesus will make earth new for the kingdom age.

 

[Purity]

Jesus will make earth new for the kingdom age.

Have you dealt with the questions posed?