Soul Sleep?

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Helen

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Those who claim it is merely a *parable* hate the doctrines of the afterlife as found in the Bible. Soul Sleep and Annihilationism are FALSE DOCTRINES.

What about salvation for all of mankind. :D

"As in Adam all died, so in Christ shall all be made alive. "

Hugs...H
 

farouk

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Ok, now by this interpretation, you are teaching that the Jews will at some point cry out to Abraham to send the Gentiles to come ease their pain in Hell. According to your interpretation, the text would read: And crying out, he (i.e. the Jews) said, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me (us), and send Lazarus (i.e. the Gentiles), that he (they) may dip the tip of his finger (i.e. their fingers) in water, and cool my tongue (i.e. our tongues), for I am (we are) in pain in these flames." You have all those Jews who rejected Christ here crying out for the Gentiles who received Christ to dip the tips of their fingers in water and touch the tip of their tongues? Isn't that a strange request for millions of Jews to be making en masse to millions of Gentiles en masse?

Secondly, you asked earlier if it was feasible that those in Hell could speak to those in Heaven. Here you have them doing just that, don't you? The orthodox position is that before the resurrection, Paradise and Hades were both in the Underworld, and a chasm separated the two, yet those on one side could nevertheless see the other across the chasm and communicate to them. Hence the rich man could see Lazarus and Abraham, and cry out to Abraham to send Lazarus across. You apparently deny this tradition, but replace it with the teaching that the rich man (the unbelieving Jews) will at some point in the future interact from Hell to Heaven with the believing Gentiles. Aren't you contradicting your own point by saying they CAN have conversations with them now?
The believer may be assured: "absent from the body"; "present with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5.8).
 
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Enoch111

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What about salvation for all of mankind. :D

"As in Adam all died, so in Christ shall all be made alive. "
"In Christ" is the key here, and as you know, 1 Corinthians 15 is strictly for Christians -- those who are in Christ.

As to mankind, (1) the Gospel is for all mankind, (2) the Church has been mandate to preach the Gospel to every creature, (3) if all will obey the Gospel all may be saved. Indeed God commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30).

But they have not all obeyed the Gospel, and therefore many will be damned.

ROMANS 10

8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the Gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

What is said about Israel in this passage now has a broader application. The Gospel has gone into all the world, and there is no one who has not heard about Christ. Yet all have not believed on Him, and "he that believeth not is condemned already".
 
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brakelite

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Whoa....

You're saying you believe Jesus died in Spirit as well? Man, Brakelite....

I'll agree with you on one thing: That's definitely controversial.
( :eek: )
It shouldn't be. Let me ask some questions.
Did the Son of God take our place in answer to the law which demands death of the sinner?
Is this the first death, or the second death?

Now we really need to clear up what the spirit is of man that returns to God. There is absolutely no evidence in scripture that the spirit of man holds any personality...essence of feelings or consciousness, of its former owner. Then of course we need to ascertain the whether or not man is mortal...subject to death...or immortal...not subject to death. I think Christians have a great deal of difficulty dealing with the facts here. Again, based on nothing more than supposition, modern Christians believe as the Greeks and Romans and various pagan cultures before them, all of whom repeat the lie preached to Eve in the garden by Satan...ye shall not surely die.
My point? Man dies, that is he is subject to the second death, which is a death without hope...without the presence of or any connection to, the giver and sustainer of life. If Jesus did not die the second death, then the atonement is incomplete. There is no propitiation. We are lost.
 
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brakelite

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Those who claim it is merely a *parable* hate the doctrines of the afterlife as found in the Bible. Soul Sleep and Annihilationism are FALSE DOCTRINES.
You need to substantiate from scripture that the "after-life" you speak of belongs to mortal beings subject to the death sentence because of the demands of the law. I know and love the concept of eternal life for the redeemed. But please provide evidence that such a gift is also given to the lost?
 

Ac28

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I believe in soul sleep. I, a soul, sleep every night. When I die, I'll be a dead soul. Men don't HAVE a soul, they ARE a soul, Gen 2:7. I can't believe people are still sucked in to the PURELY PAGAN idea that man has a separate part called a "soul" Anything to keep Satan's lie alive. "Ye shall not surely die" The truth is what God said, "Ye shall surely die."
 
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101G

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It shouldn't be. Let me ask some questions.
Did the Son of God take our place in answer to the law which demands death of the sinner?
Is this the first death, or the second death?

Now we really need to clear up what the spirit is of man that returns to God. There is absolutely no evidence in scripture that the spirit of man holds any personality...essence of feelings or consciousness, of its former owner. Then of course we need to ascertain the whether or not man is mortal...subject to death...or immortal...not subject to death. I think Christians have a great deal of difficulty dealing with the facts here. Again, based on nothing more than supposition, modern Christians believe as the Greeks and Romans and various pagan cultures before them, all of whom repeat the lie preached to Eve in the garden by Satan...ye shall not surely die.
My point? Man dies, that is he is subject to the second death, which is a death without hope...without the presence of or any connection to, the giver and sustainer of life. If Jesus did not die the second death, then the atonement is incomplete. There is no propitiation. We are lost.
It shouldn't be. Let me ask some questions.
Did the Son of God take our place in answer to the law which demands death of the sinner?
Is this the first death, or the second death?

Now we really need to clear up what the spirit is of man that returns to God. There is absolutely no evidence in scripture that the spirit of man holds any personality...essence of feelings or consciousness, of its former owner. Then of course we need to ascertain the whether or not man is mortal...subject to death...or immortal...not subject to death. I think Christians have a great deal of difficulty dealing with the facts here. Again, based on nothing more than supposition, modern Christians believe as the Greeks and Romans and various pagan cultures before them, all of whom repeat the lie preached to Eve in the garden by Satan...ye shall not surely die.
My point? Man dies, that is he is subject to the second death, which is a death without hope...without the presence of or any connection to, the giver and sustainer of life. If Jesus did not die the second death, then the atonement is incomplete. There is no propitiation. We are lost.
I'm glad you asked these questions. lets look at what you have said,
the Son of God died the first death, naturaL... bLOOD. BUT YOU SAID,
There is absolutely no evidence in scripture that the spirit of man holds any personality...essence of feelings or consciousness, of its former owner.
do not the Spirit have a function of conscience also? just like the mind has? the will, and the emotion. This is clearly and definitely proved by the Word of God, listen,
Prov 2:10 When wisdom entereth into thine heart, and knowledge is pleasant unto thy soul;God gives us the spiritual Growth (wisdom) that is consumed by the INNER MAN (our spirits), and the knowledge of this wisdom reside in our MINDS, or here Souls. supportive scriptures,
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

but is not the NATURAL MIND of man is aganist God? let's see,
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

so God via message through our spirit, and not our natural mind. also, do not the spirit of both God and man grieve? let's check the record again,

First God, Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Now man. 2Cor 2:4 For out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote unto you with many tears; not that ye should be grieved, but that ye might know the love which I have more abundantly unto you.

if you cannot grasp what the apostle is saying here, Gill have good commentary on this verse.

I'll let you digest, and response to what I have posted and then we can continue
 

101G

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to all who follow this topic, consider this.

Spiritual Emotions VS Natural (Soulish), the mind, or Fleshly Emotions.

Follow me close, The Lord demands that you give up the life of your emotion. What do I mean? If you do love the Lord and are filled with his Spirit, you will be very emotional.... LIKE HIM. A man or woman who is not emotional can never be spiritual. A spiritual man or woman is a very emotional person in the Lord. If you never know how to love, (agape, here), and if you never know how to be sorry, or if you never know how to weep, (like our Lord did) you just might missed the proper criteria to be a Christian after Christ (in the Spirit) and not after men, or of the flesh. For the flesh hold the same emotions, but which one will you obey?

Let’s be clear. Like the Lord Jesus who wept, Paul the apostle was the same (after his conversion). The apostle Paul was very emotional, scripture, Phil 3:18 "(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ". Paul was tender in feeling, in love, in mercy, and in compassion, really just read some of his epistles, I mean take your time and read some of his epistles. The bible is full of spiritual emotionally men and women. and on top of that God will not allow you to be without "HIS" emotions.

A spiritual person is one who is dedicated in the understanding of the mind (via wisdom), remember Proverb 2:10. also a spiritual person is not a thoughtless person, the more spiritual you are, the more thoughtful you are in the spirit, and will mind the things of the Spirit. for our wills are another function of the soul as well as the spirit.

Let’s just get to the chase. We must realize that it is not the mind, emotion, and will that have to be destroyed. It is the life, the life, the life, of the soul that we must give up. This natural life, (blood), understand the soul life, has been put to death on the cross already, Gal 2:20 “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me”. and Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. (what did the deceiver say? "you want surely die", what a lie)
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Now that you and I have died, (according to the flesh), we can now take our husband, Christ, As with the apostle Paul using the “LAW” as an example for and to the Jews, Likewise we will used the example “Sin” as a substitute in the following verses to show clarity, supportive scripture,
Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law ("sin") hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law (our "sin") to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law (our sin) of her husband.
Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law (our sin); so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.


Now you and I, (we), have taken Christ, as our Husband (2 Cor. 11:2), we must also take the divine life as our life, but the faculties of the soul still remain as organs to be used by your spirit to express the Lord Himself.


hence the reason why a HUSBAND and WIFE is ONE, supportive scripture,
John 17:22 "And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one".

that old man goes to the GRAVE, and that fleshly mind is destroyed.

a re-read of this post might be necessary.
 

Ac28

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Prov 2:10 When wisdom entereth into thine heart, and knowledge is pleasant unto thy soul;God gives us the spiritual Growth (wisdom) that is consumed by the INNER MAN (our spirits), and the knowledge of this wisdom reside in our MINDS, or here Souls. supportive scriptures,
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
knowledge is pleasant unto thy soul (thy self)

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Like it says, the New Covenant is 100%, TO and ABOUT Israel. It's purpose is to put the Law in ISRAEL'S inward parts, so they keep the Law and love doing it. Nowhere does it say that Gentiles today, whose doctrine is found ONLY in Paul's 7 post-Acts epistles, have ANY part in the New Covenant. A preview of the NC was given in Acts, as the gifts. The Gentiles that received these gifts, in Acts 10, were ALL part of Israel, since they were grafted into Israel, and that's the only reason they were given the NC. Israel was set aside as a nation in Acts 28:28. After Acts, a new all-Gentile church was formed, which is not associated with Israel AT ALL. Therefore, since only Israel was given the NC, it's impossible that it is for anyone living since 64AD.
 

101G

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knowledge is pleasant unto thy soul (thy self)

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Like it says, the New Covenant is 100%, TO and ABOUT Israel. It's purpose is to put the Law in ISRAEL'S inward parts, so they keep the Law and love doing it. Nowhere does it say that Gentiles today, whose doctrine is found ONLY in Paul's 7 post-Acts epistles, have ANY part in the New Covenant. A preview of the NC was given in Acts, as the gifts. The Gentiles that received these gifts, in Acts 10, were ALL part of Israel, since they were grafted into Israel, and that's the only reason they were given the NC. Israel was set aside as a nation in Acts 28:28. After Acts, a new all-Gentile church was formed, which is not associated with Israel AT ALL. Therefore, since only Israel was given the NC, it's impossible that it is for anyone living since 64AD.
first thanks for the reply.
second, not saying that you're right or wrong, but consider this, God said he would make a covenant with the "HOUSE" of Israel, not the "TRIBES" of israel, big difference. and two God said, that he was going to put "HIS" LAW not LAW(S) in their inward parts. God said "HIS" LAW, and that Law was to all men. Moses gave the LAWS to the Nations or tribes of Israel, for he, Moses, was their mediator. but now we have a Mediator who is not a man as Moses, but God himself. and it is HIS LAW we follow, both JEWS AND GENTILES. a good read of Ephesians 2 will bear this out.
 

Helen

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I can't believe people are still sucked in to the PURELY PAGAN idea that man has a separate part called a "soul" Anything to keep Satan's lie alive. "Ye shall not surely die" The truth is what God said, "Ye shall surely die."

1 Thess 5
23 "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

It sure reads like it to me! Did Paul get it wrong then?
 
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Ac28

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1 Thess 5
23 "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

It sure reads like it to me! Did Paul get it wrong then?
Spirit, life, and body

See Strong's
 

Hidden In Him

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Spirit, life, and body

See Strong's

Acts28, you are denying that the Greek word ψυχή refers to the soul? What do you do with 1 Corinthians 15:45? Ἐγένετο ὁ πρῶτος ἄνθρωπος Ἀδὰμ εἰς ψυχὴν ζῶσαν: = "And the first man Adam became a living soul." You would have it read as "and he became a living life."
 
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Hidden In Him

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It shouldn't be. Let me ask some questions.
Did the Son of God take our place in answer to the law which demands death of the sinner?
Is this the first death, or the second death?

Now we really need to clear up what the spirit is of man that returns to God. There is absolutely no evidence in scripture that the spirit of man holds any personality...essence of feelings or consciousness, of its former owner. Then of course we need to ascertain the whether or not man is mortal...subject to death...or immortal...not subject to death. I think Christians have a great deal of difficulty dealing with the facts here. Again, based on nothing more than supposition, modern Christians believe as the Greeks and Romans and various pagan cultures before them, all of whom repeat the lie preached to Eve in the garden by Satan...ye shall not surely die.
My point? Man dies, that is he is subject to the second death, which is a death without hope...without the presence of or any connection to, the giver and sustainer of life. If Jesus did not die the second death, then the atonement is incomplete. There is no propitiation. We are lost.

But unless I'm getting you wrong, we're talking here about the Son of God dying out of existence entirely for a time. That's really... different (I was going to say strange, LoL :])

Go back to the OP and tell me how you interpret 1 Peter 3:18-22. It has bearing on our present discussion.
 
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Hidden In Him

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@Hidden In Him I don't see soul sleep in Scripture at all.

I don't either. It's a very strong break with Christian tradition and the creeds of the early church. That doesn't mean it's automatically false, mind you, but to accept it necessitates throwing out a great deal of traditional interpretation on numerous New Testament verses and passages, which in my opinion have merit and hold water.
 

farouk

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I don't either. It's a very strong break with Christian tradition and the creeds of the early church. That doesn't mean it's automatically false, mind you, but to accept it necessitates throwing out a great deal of traditional interpretation on numerous New Testament verses and passages, which in my opinion have merit and hold water.
Not Scriptural; this is the crux. "Absent from the body"; "present with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5.8).
 
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