TallMan wrote:
Speaking in tongues is speaking to God, not men (1 Cor. 14:2), that's prayer isn't it ?
1 Corinthians 14:20 Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature. 21 In the law it is written:
“ With men of other tongues and other lips I will speak to this peopl (Israel); And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me,”says the Lord.22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.Concerning vs. 2, a better translation is probably "a god"...vs. 9 calls the same thing speaking into the air. Not to God? Should we just pick the one that suits us and close our minds and heart to look further?
1Co:14:4: He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself;TallMan wrote:to edify is to build up (Jude 20)People speak in tongues by the Holy Spirit, so they are praying in the Holy Spirit.
The verse you quoted is not the true gift of tongues which are no longer a sign to Israel. But the false pagan gift. In the context of the gifts...Can you pass this test?
(1)1 Corinthians 14:1
Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.
(2)1 Corinthians 13:4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely,
does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8 Love never fails.
(3)1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.The Holy Spirit does not produce a clanging symbol. Only the flesh can.Praying in the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with tongues. If you are self seeking, you are doing this from the flesh, and not the Holy Spirit.
See also:-1Co:14:14: For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.:15: What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.:16: Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? :17: For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified. :18: I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
All these verses are speaking of our spirit. Notice the small "s". Most of the reliable translations understand this distinction and translate accordingly. Compare to 1 Corinthians 12:3-12 where the word "Spirit" is a capitalized "S" because it is refereing to the Holy Spirit. TallMan wrote:
So, if you understand what you are saying it is not praying with the spirit.Also note you give thanks well, so tongues is praying or blessing God according to His will.
16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say? 17 For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified. "s"= our spirit, not the Holy Spirit. Love your Lord God with all your mind...TallMan Wrote:
Here's a prophecy:-Zec:12:10: And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications:The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of grace and supplications .. what does this prophecy refer to? . . .Ac:2:4: And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.The supplications is the speaking in tongues, Jesus had already said:-"ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you" (Acts 1:8)That power gave them boldness - look at the change in the disciples!
And that transition period is over, as I have explained. Unless you are a OT saint who was living having faith before Christ died on the cross, and are still living, then this does not apply to you. The transition is over, no need to wait for the Holy Spirit, you receive Him as a seal of promise of your inheretance the moment you believe (1 Corinthians 12:13). The sign of God's judgment on the nation of Israel has ceased. The birth of the Church is over, now there is only growth. The scripture that you posted dose not say what you claim. It's a very general statement where much is assumed. Yes, the Holy Spirit is the source of anything good that comes from us for the Church John 15:5, 1 Corinthians 4:7, Zechariah 4:6. Everything. And everything good that comes from us for the church is an undeserved gift from God.TallMan Wrote:
Since the New Covenant hasn't and will not change (Gal.3:15) why don't you ask for the same infilling detailed in the bible which and very many today have received fron God?
"Being filled with the spirit must be distinguished from being baptized with the spirit. The apostle Paul carefully defines the baptism with the spirit as that act of Christ by which He places believers into His body (Romans 6:4-6; 1 Corinthians 12:13; Galatians 3:27). In contrast to much errant teaching today, the New Testament nowhere commands believers to seek the baptism with the Holy Spirit. It is a sovereign, single, unrepeatable act on Gods part, and is no more an experience than are its companions justification and adoption. Although some wrongly view the baptism with the Spirit as the initiation into the ranks of the spiritual elite, nothing could be further from the truth. The purpose of the baptism with the spirit is not to divide the body of Christ, but to unify it. As Paul wrote to the Corinthians, through the baptism with the Spirit "we were all baptized into one body" (1 Corinthians 12:13; cf. Galatians 3:26-27; Ephesians 4:4-6) Unlike the baptism with the Spirit, being filled with the Spirit is an experience and should be continuous. Although filled initially on the day of Pentecost, Peter was filled again in Acts 4:8. Many of the same people filled with the Spirit in Acts 2 were filled again in Acts 4:31. Acts 6:5 describes Stephen as a man "full of faith and the Holy Spirit," yet Acts 7:55 records his being filled again. Paul was filled with the Spirit in Acts 9:17 and again in Acts 13:9. While there is no command in scripture to be baptized with the Spirit, believers are commanded to be filled with the Spirit (Ephesians 5:18 ). The grammatical construction of that passage indicates believers are to be continuously being filled with the Spirit. Those who would be filled with the Spirit must first empty themselves. That involves confession of sin and dying to selfishness and self will. To be filled with the Holy Spirit is to consciously practice the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ and to have a mind saturated with the Word of God. Colossians 3:16-25 delineates the results of "letting the word of Christ richly dwell" in us. They are the same ones that result from the filling of the Spirit (Ephesians 5:19-33). As believers yield the moment by moment decisions of life to His control, they "walk by the Spirit" (Galatians 5:16). The baptism of the Spirit grants the power that the filling with the Spirit unleashes." (Macarthur) A side note: A proper understanding of being "filled" is not to think of us as a glass being filled with water, being "filled actually means to be more under the control of the Holy Spirit. Once again, We are given the HS without measure John 3:34, and when we are born again we are complete in Him, lacking nothing Colossians 2:9-12, 2 Peter 1:3-4.
1 Corinthians 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. Paul is talking about spiritual gifts and how to discern what is / isn't of God. The Holy Spirit gave this (and all) revelation of Jesus. Just because you quote the revelation that others have recorded doesn't mean that you have the Holy Spirit! - especially when you don't do the things that the Lord Jesus says believers will do!
He means just what he says. This has nothing to do with tongues.
Dave said: If you pray by the Spirit (According to God's will), TallMan replied:You cannot pray by the Spirit contrary to God's will!
Exactly!. Now do you believe that it is possible to pray/speak according to God's will without tongues? 1 Corinthians 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.It is God the Holy Sprit who teaches me these things or moves me to pray or praise. Anything that I say, in prayer, or otherwise, that is according to the Word of God is from God, hence it is from the Holy Spirit, hence I am praying/praising/teaching etc. in the Spirit.
Posted by Dave... "which cannot be uttered" TallMan wrote]So you believe the Holy Spirit, who knows all things and who created all things by the word and by wisdom doesn't have the words??Of course he does, it is humans that don't know what to say, we don't have the utterance, that's why we need tongues!!
Again, this is nowhere taut=ght in scripture."which cannot be uttered" God's Word says it. Do you believe it?To follow your logic. Are you saying that the "Holy Spirit, who knows all things and who created all things by the word and by wisdom" cannot lead a person to pray in a language that can be understood by the same person? Bypassing the mind?
How do you pray for the peace that PASSES understanding?
In English, with all my heart, mind and soul.
Originally Posted by Dave... Apart from the primary purpose of tongues, which Paul said was to be a sign to unbelievers (Jews), Where doep Paul use the words "primary" or "secondary" ?Or did you add this idea?
Primary1 Corinthians 14:20 Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature. 21 In the law it is written:
“ With men of other tongues and other lips I will speak to this people; And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me,” says the Lord.22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.
Secondary1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. Even real tongues could not edify the believers. Only the interpretation of them could.
Originally Posted by Dave... There is no such sign being given today like we read about in Acts. TallMan wrote:This is an apostate confession.
The apostles got the same reaction from the Scribes and Pharisees.
"The Charismatic movement gained credence and initial acceptance by claiming their gifts were the same as those in Acts. For most people that is why they are credible today." That is, because most people believe the Charismatic movement offers the promise of the same gifts described in the New Testament. "Yet," he says, "Now, when challenged by the obvious fact that their gifts don’t meet Biblical standards, one of their primary defenses is to claim that their gifts are not the same as those gifts in the New Testament. Faced with the facts, they have had to revoke the very foundation of their original reason for existence." (Thomas Edgar )
Originally Posted by Dave... ...What advantage does tongues hold for the individual or the Body that cannot be accomplished both more efficiently and with less confusion by normal ( non-miraculous) means? TallMan Wrote:It allows the Holy Spirit to lead you into the peace, love and power that you as a natural man cannot understand.
I have all these things without tongues. When I pray, praise in private or in the assembly of believers, in English, or teach teach within the Body in English, I don't need a interpreter, I always understand what I'm saying, and so does everyone else. I'm not sure how tongues is equal or a improvement on what prophecy can acomplish within the setting of believers. BTW...Prophesying is for believers (we preach Christ crucified) Although prophecy was used by God to reveal His written Word, the word "prophecy" never meant anything more than speaking forth, to proclaim. In 1 Cor. 14:3 Paul tells us what the gift of prophecy is for "But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort". And elsewhere we see that the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy, and the Bible is the testimony of Jesus. Rev. 19:10, John 5:39 I've gone over most of this stuff in my original posts already. Dave