Spirit-Filled Members: Please Comment

[Hidden In Him]

So the passage in 1 Corinthians 8 states that the issue at hand (food) does not bring people near to God, which begs the question: how does prophecy, gifts of healing, signs and miracles bring us near to God? Heb 10:22 says “let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.” This is critical as it tells us how to draw near to God, with a sincere heart and with full assurance that faith brings. Now if prophecy, signs and healings are to draw us near to God—in other words, if they are signs of strong faith and a closeness to God, they should be done with a sincere heart and with full assurance. There in lies the problem with most prophecies, acts of miracles, or healings—the Christians professing to have these gifts may not have one hundred percent full assurance in their “success rate,” and they must have a sincere heart avoiding pitfalls like pride, jealousy and desperation for assurance, which can divide one’s heart. Therefore, while the continuationism argument is strongly supported by parts of the Bible, in many cases it may be an issue where it is permissible but is not the most beneficial ministry in the present age (1 Cor 10:23). At the very least, those believing that they have prophetic, tongues, miraculous or healing gifts need to be fully confident and sincere before using their gifts. There are also several reasons why continuationism is not constructive in the current church age, and these are: disorderly conduct, pride, overemphasis on benefits of tongues, jealousy and lack of assurance.

Welcome to Christianity Board. I'm currently taking a break from the forums, but your posts were interesting enough to check in for a second and reply.

For starters, I appreciate your treating both sides of the issue. In practice, modern Continuationism is riddled with problems and IMO well-deserving of the condemnation it receives. My opinion on what the main culprit is, however, is different from yours, so if I can, let me address your posts, not from a Cessationist position but a Continuationist one:

You ask the question, "How does/do prophecy, gifts of healing, signs and miracles bring us near to God?" My answer here is that in the context of discussing sign gifts, they are supposed to be signs to the unbeliever, which is the massive elephant in the room. Paul's encouragement was rather to prophecy (1 Corinthians 12:31, 1 Corinthians 14:5). Why? Because it provides objective confirmation both to believers and unbelievers alike (1 Corinthians 14:24-25). Tongues when interpreted provides the same thing; objective confirmation. (1 Corinthians 14:21-22). But instead, what we see in Pentecostalism today is a lot of "supernatural" experiences where no objective confirmation is provided, in blatant disregard for the teachings of scripture. Most of what passes for manifestations of the Holy Spirit nowadays make the congregations look "mad" to unbelievers; falling out, laughing, "tongues" that go uninterpreted, and a whole host of other stuff that can just as easily be faked as not, and are never supported with objective confirmation that they are truly of Divine origin.

It's a train wreck, and if I did not have personal experience with spiritual gifts I would take the Cessationist side, and argue vehemently against what today presents itself as "Pentecostalism."

As for why it is happening, it's because the vast majority operate in the flesh and have no desire to do what it would take to walk in the Spirit instead. Nor will their leadership insist upon it, since they would likely do so at the cost of losing most of their congregations. But until Pentecostal leaders stop running their mouths, sit down, shut up and start making fasting and prayer the dominant focus of every service, nothing is going to change. The "show" will simply go on.

I'd say more, but I suppose I'll leave it there.

Blessings in Christ, and welcome again to our forum.
Hidden In Him

 

[Stranger]

Ok, these are fallible as sometimes their forth telling does not come true or is so general there is no way to tell and often they contradict each other, so what good is that?
No, I am mainly referring to the NAR type groups who are claiming some of themselves as Apostles and/or Prophets using verses like...

1 Corinthians 12:28 NASB
[28] And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.

Ephesians 4:11 NASB
[11] And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,

Well, some true prophets in the Old Testament got it wrong at times. Every believer has a gift of the Holy Spirit, but can make mistakes in the use of that gift. Doesn't mean it is not real.

(1 Cor. 12:28) and (Eph. 4:11) is true. As to NAR, what is that? I would disagree with any self appointed anyone. There must be the acknowledgement by ones local church that one does indeed bear evidence of that gift.

Stranger

 

[amadeus]

Just as an aside, have you every stopped to compare the amount of content on some threads, and in some posts, that solely addresses the flaws in the other party, compared to that which addresses whatever topic is being discussed? Sometimes it can get difficult to find real content.

Too much personal stuff to the point of saying nothing good makes me avoid the conversation when I become aware of it. Sometimes I really want to join a discussion because of the topic but cannot because of the attitudes. Having said that I won't be so foolish as to say I have never done the very things I criticize for I surely have. The good thing is I have not given up on trying to improve and God has not given up on me. Praise His Name!

 

[marks]

I believe there are still prophets and apostle's in the Church today. But as others have said they are found in the local church having and exercising those gifts. There are no more Old Testament prophets. But there are still those who have the gift of being a prophet.

As with any other gift of the Holy Spirit they are not self-appointed. It is from the Holy Spirit. And as with any other gift, those in the local assembly recognize it and give their voice of approval.

As to their message, it will entail specifically what is going on with the local assembly they are part of. It is not, as Old Testament prophets, to be added to Scripture. It is pertinent to the day to day lives of that assembly.

Stranger

That sounds like a good description to me!

Much love!

 

[marks]

No, I am mainly referring to the NAR type groups who are claiming some of themselves as Apostles and/or Prophets

I've looked a lot into this movement, and I say, run screaming!

Much love!

Well, you don't have to scream, just run!

 

[Bobby Jo]

I've looked a lot into this movement, and I say, run screaming!
Much love!
Well, you don't have to scream, just run!

What is the New Apostolic Reformation?
What is the New Apostolic Reformation? | GotQuestions.org
Answer: The New Apostolic Reformation, or NAR, is an unbiblical religious movement that emphasizes experience over Scripture, mysticism over doctrine, and modern-day "apostles" over the plain text of the Bible. Of particular distinction in the New Apostolic Reformation are the role and power of spiritual leaders and miracle-workers, the reception of "new" revelations from God, an over-emphasis on spiritual warfare, and a pursuit of cultural and political control in society.​

Does anybody think we're in the Last Days? In the 42 month Tribulation? Anybody?

Bobby Jo

 

[prism]

Well, some true prophets in the Old Testament got it wrong at times

Really? Where? If so, the Scriptures have errors and God lies or... They weren't true prophets. But do tell, where?

Every believer has a gift of the Holy Spirit, but can make mistakes in the use of that gift. Doesn't mean it is not real

Yes every believer has a gift, but if they ever speak in the name of the Lord e.g. "Thus saith the Lord" and it doesn't come to pass, they are to be considered a false prophet...

Deuteronomy 18:21-22 NASBS
[21] You may say in your heart, 'How will we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?' [22] When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.

As to NAR, what is that? I would disagree with any self appointed anyone. There must be the acknowledgement by ones local church that one does indeed bear evidence of that gift.

Look up NAR (New Apostolic Reformation). Problem is their mindset is permeating many Churches, so that Churches are appointing their own Apostles and Prophets (but God isn't).

 

[prism]

I've looked a lot into this movement, and I say, run screaming!

Much love!

Well, you don't have to scream, just run!

Or as Walter Martin used to say, 'run, do not walk, to the nearest exit'. lol

 

[Stranger]

Really? Where? If so, the Scriptures have errors and God lies or... They weren't true prophets. But do tell, where?


Yes every believer has a gift, but if they ever speak in the name of the Lord e.g. "Thus saith the Lord" and it doesn't come to pass, they are to be considered a false prophet...

Deuteronomy 18:21-22 NASBS
[21] You may say in your heart, 'How will we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?' [22] When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.


Look up NAR (New Apostolic Reformation). Problem is their mindset is permeating many Churches, so that Churches are appointing their own Apostles and Prophets (but God isn't).

(1 Chron. 17:1-4) (Jonah 3:4) Was Nathan or Jonah a false prophet?

I disagree. There are plenty of teachers who have the gift of teaching but make errors. That doesn't make them a false teacher.

As I said earlier, there are no more prophets in the Old Testament sense which is what (Deut. 18) is speaking to.

As I said earlier, I don't believe in any 'self-appointed' anyone in the Church. All are to be be acknowledged and supported by the Church that they have a certain gift. And if they have it then they are free to exercise it in the Church. If a church gives their approval that one is a teacher, or prophet, or apostle, then I certainly am not going to interfere or question them. God uses the Church to appoint those.

Stranger

 

[Bobby Jo]

... There are plenty of teachers who have the gift of teaching but make errors. That doesn't make them a false teacher. ...

1 Cor 14 says to let the prophets speak, and let the others judge. And CORRECTLY, if we judge the prophets, so too we MUST judge the evangelists, pastors, and teachers!

... If a church gives their approval that one is a teacher, or prophet, or apostle, then I certainly am not going to interfere or question them. God uses the Church to appoint those.

I do think you give too much credit to the Church. GOD calls and gifts his servants! Of course the church may RECOGNIZE a ministry, but whether GOD calls them or the church recognizes them, we MUST still judge what they say and/or do.

Thanks,
Bobby Jo

 

[Stranger]

1 Cor 14 says to let the prophets speak, and let the others judge. And CORRECTLY, if we judge the prophets, so too we MUST judge the evangelists, pastors, and teachers!



I do think you give too much credit to the Church. GOD calls and gifts his servants! Of course the church may RECOGNIZE a ministry, but whether GOD calls them or the church recognizes them, we MUST still judge what they say and/or do.

Thanks,
Bobby Jo

Please include the verses you are alluding to. If you want to judge against what the leaders of the local church have said, then just leave the church. It is God who has set down the leadership role within the churches.

I give credit to God who has established the leadership in the church. No. If the church says it recognizes the ministry of an individual as a pastor, teacher, or prophet or apostle, then you let it be. Either that or leave.

If you want to judge or question the leadership of the Church, then you do so by leaving. The Church belongs to God and Christ. He is quite capeable of tearing it down if it needs it.

I have disagreed with the leadership of churches in the past. But, I never tried to overthrow them. I simply left. I followed all their accepted ways of voicing a disagreement. But that was done and there was no satisfaction, I left. I did not try and overthrow their authority.

Stranger

 

[Bobby Jo]

P ... If you want to judge against what the leaders of the local church have said, then just leave the church. ...

You're WRONG, -- NO! Paul judged Peter, A DISCIPLE! We are to do no less, -- that is unless "GOD" consists of the FATHER; the SON; and the HOLY SPIRIT; and all the CHURCH LEADERSHIP -- simple sinning men just like you and me!

Please allow me to suggest that when Eve sinned, part of her penalty was to be placed under a man. And if YOU allow yourself to be placed under a man, -- YOU'RE a WOMAN. Adam "reports" directly to GOD, and YOU SHOULD TOO. -- NEVER allow another man to be your "head". YOU are the HEAD.

Or so I would adjure!
Bobby Jo

RSV: 1 Cor. 14:29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said.
KJV: 1 Cor. 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.​

 

[Stranger]

You're WRONG, -- NO! Paul judged Peter, A DISCIPLE! We are to do no less, -- that is unless "GOD" consists of the FATHER; the SON; and the HOLY SPIRIT; and all the CHURCH LEADERSHIP -- simple sinning men just like you and me!

Please allow me to suggest that when Eve sinned, part of her penalty was to be placed under a man. And if YOU allow yourself to be placed under a man, -- YOU'RE a WOMAN. Adam "reports" directly to GOD, and YOU SHOULD TOO. -- NEVER allow another man to be your "head". YOU are the HEAD.

Or so I would adjure!
Bobby Jo

RSV: 1 Cor. 14:29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said.
KJV: 1 Cor. 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.​

In (I Cor. 14:29), that prophets existed in the Church is already accepted. There is no judgment here to determine if they are prophets.

Eve was always under the man.

I never said any other man was my head. I simply showed you the chain of authority which God has given. In the Church, I am not the head. In a local church I am not the head. God has given those gifts of leadership in the local church to which you are accountable to.

Stranger

 

[Bobby Jo]

... In a local church I am not the head. God has given those gifts of leadership in the local church to which you are accountable to.

Nope! WE are the LOCAL CHURCH. Of course most all churches have HIRELINGS, but Scripture is fairly clear as to the "benefit" of the HIRELING. But if you don't want your LOCAL CHURCH to be run as 1 Cor. 14 says, then KEEP YOUR HIRELING.

1 Cor. 14:26 What then, brethren? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. ...​

We all choose, -- and I made my "choice" when I asked my "pastor" for 20 minutes of his time, -- which he agreed to --, and said he'd set up an appointment. And after a week I called in and left a message. After another week I called again and left another message. After a THIRD WEEK I called AGAIN and LEFT A MESSAGE. Then on the FOURTH WEEK after leaving ANOTHER MESSAGE, I finally got a return call: "STOP CALLING THE CHURCH, THE SECRETARIES HAVE WORK TO DO."

There's certainly no shortage of HIRELINGS, -- that would gladly tell you how to LIVE; what to DO; when to DO IT; what NOT TO DO; and the list goes on. -- I think I can figure that out between GOD and me. I don't need some HIRELING man to run MY LIFE.


But maybe YOU do!
Bobby Jo

 

[Nancy]

I am doing just fine in my relationship with my Father. His Word is what I stand on. I will not deny what He has shown me and allowed me to experience. What you do is between you and Him. I am not trying to convert your belief.
The OP asked for others to share...I did.
I don't want to keep going back and forth with you. We just have different views/experiences and it doesn't profit anyone to argue over it.
God bless.

Your answers are very gracious H2S

 

[prism]

(1 Chron. 17:1-4) (Jonah 3:4) Was Nathan or Jonah a false prophet?

I disagree. There are plenty of teachers who have the gift of teaching but make errors. That doesn't make them a false teacher.

As I said earlier, there are no more prophets in the Old Testament sense which is what (Deut. 18) is speaking to.

As I said earlier, I don't believe in any 'self-appointed' anyone in the Church. All are to be be acknowledged and supported by the Church that they have a certain gift. And if they have it then they are free to exercise it in the Church. If a church gives their approval that one is a teacher, or prophet, or apostle, then I certainly am not going to interfere or question them. God uses the Church to appoint those.

Stranger

1 Chronicles 17:1-4 NASBS
[1] And it came about, when David dwelt in his house, that David said to Nathan the prophet, "Behold, I am dwelling in a house of cedar, but the ark of the covenant of the LORD is under curtains." [2] Then Nathan said to David, "Do all that is in your heart, for God is with you." [3] It came about the same night that the word of God came to Nathan, saying, [4] "Go and tell David My servant, 'Thus says the LORD, "You shall not build a house for Me to dwell in;

David never asked Nathan if he should build and Nathan never told him to build. It seems you are reading into the text.

The standard of a Prophet speaking in the name of the Lord is much higher than those teaching God's Word. One brings new revelation, the other expounds it's meaning.

And as I said earlier, I am referring to NAR type Apostles and Prophets who claim the same authority as their biblical counterparts?

So what do you do when your Church becomes filled with these types and they appoint each other as such? Submit under their self appointed authority?

 

[Bobby Jo]

1 Chronicles 17:1-4 NASBS
[1] And it came about, when David dwelt in his house, that David said to Nathan the prophet, "Behold, I am dwelling in a house of cedar, but the ark of the covenant of the LORD is under curtains." [2] Then Nathan said to David, "Do all that is in your heart, for God is with you." [3] It came about the same night that the word of God came to Nathan, saying, [4] "Go and tell David My servant, 'Thus says the LORD, "You shall not build a house for Me to dwell in;​

David never asked Nathan if he should build and Nathan never told him to build. It seems you are reading into the text.

DO ALL, -- except now, you CAN'T DO ALL!


Not reading "into", -- just reading ...
Bobby Jo

 

[Stranger]

1 Chronicles 17:1-4 NASBS
[1] And it came about, when David dwelt in his house, that David said to Nathan the prophet, "Behold, I am dwelling in a house of cedar, but the ark of the covenant of the LORD is under curtains." [2] Then Nathan said to David, "Do all that is in your heart, for God is with you." [3] It came about the same night that the word of God came to Nathan, saying, [4] "Go and tell David My servant, 'Thus says the LORD, "You shall not build a house for Me to dwell in;

David never asked Nathan if he should build and Nathan never told him to build. It seems you are reading into the text.

The standard of a Prophet speaking in the name of the Lord is much higher than those teaching God's Word. One brings new revelation, the other expounds it's meaning.

And as I said earlier, I am referring to NAR type Apostles and Prophets who claim the same authority as their biblical counterparts?

So what do you do when your Church becomes filled with these types and they appoint each other as such? Submit under their self appointed authority?

That is not true. David spoke to Nathan the prophet. The prophet gave David wrong advice. My point is that Nathan made a mistake. Didn't he? Yet that mistake did not mean he was not a prophet of God.

Same is true with Jonah, which you didn't address.

I already told you. I do not go against the leadership of the local church. If I believe it is wrong, and there is nothing I can do to help the problem, I leave. And when I leave, I leave it to God, as it is His church.

Stranger

 

[Bobby Jo]

... If I believe [the leadership of the church] is wrong, and there is nothing I can do to help the problem, I leave. ...

If I believe the leadership of MY CHURCH is wrong, I confront them, AND THEN I LEAVE if necessary -- which is typically required when we have a HIRELING who's more interested in his paycheck than the flock.

Paul CORRECTLY confronted Peter, and solved the problem and THAT'S the way to do it! If we confronted problems in life the same way, -- with people, with businesses, and with church --, we'd have a lot fewer problems.

Bobby Jo

 

[Philip James]

And if YOU allow yourself to be placed under a man, -- YOU'RE a WOMAN.

Hello BobbyJoe,

Then I guess I'm a woman, because I've placed myself under THE man, Jesus!

You too are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

Christ IS risen!
Alleluia!