Spotting Heretics

[Philip James]

2 Peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.

Indeed and this has happened many times.. But the Church was not led astray, indeed she cannot be, the Holy Spirit will not allow it! How else could she be 'the ground and pillar of the Truth'?

Where now are those who listened to Apollonarius? To Donatus? Ti Arias?

He said in reply, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted

Those who find their heresies cannot take hold in the Church must need leave it in order to teach falsehood! Which is why both John and Paul warn of those who would draw others away from the communion of the saints..

And from your own group, men will come forward perverting the truth to draw the disciples away after them.

Pax et Bonum

 

[ScottA]

Indeed and this has happened many times.. But the Church was not led astray, indeed she cannot be, the Holy Spirit will not allow it! How else could she be 'the ground and pillar of the Truth'?

Where now are those who listened to Apollonarius? To Donatus? Ti Arias?

He said in reply, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted

Those who find their heresies cannot take hold in the Church must need leave it in order to teach falsehood! Which is why both John and Paul warn of those who would draw others away from the communion of the saints..

And from your own group, men will come forward perverting the truth to draw the disciples away after them.

Pax et Bonum

Because "the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it", does not mean the church would not fall to delusion for believing a lie. The same is true of Israel. They were not forsaken, but did forsake. Likewise the church.

1 Peter 4:17-18
For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 Now “If the righteous one is scarcely saved, Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?”
​

 

[Philip James]

Because "the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it", does not mean the church would not fall to delusion for believing a lie.

How is the Church teaching a lie not 'the gates of hell prevailing'?

If we cannot trust 'the pillar and ground of the truth' to teach truth, then we are all lost..

The same is true of Israel. They were not forsaken, but did forsake. Likewise the church.

1 Peter 4:17-18
For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 Now “If the righteous one is scarcely saved, Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?”
​

Please tell me how the Church has forsaken Christ?

Some of her members perhaps, but the Church cannot forsake her Master..

Christ and His Church are one!

"For this reason a man shall leave (his) father and (his) mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."

This is a great mystery, but I speak in reference to Christ and the church.

Pax et Bonum

 

[Marymog]

So according to you the church elders are infallible? There is no single person who has all the truth, which is why even the apostles disagreed with each other. So saying that "from day one people began misinterpreting, over-complicating and twisting the scriptures" is entirely accurate.

You are right Jim. There is no single person who has all the Truth. The Church, not each individual member, is the pillar and foundation of Truth, just like Scripture says (1 Timothy 3:15). So, to answer your question:

Yes! The elders of The Church, when they are in agreement, are infallible. Example: The Council of Jerusalem. The Holy Ghost made the elders of The Church overseers of the flock, just like Scripture says (Acts 20:28). We are to imitate our elders, obey and submit ourselves to them that have rule over us since they watch for our souls and they are worthy of double honor and we are to imitate them, just like Scripture says (Hebrews 13:7 & 17, 1 Timothy 5:17,). And when the elders of The Church make a decision and you don't agree with that decision you are to be treated like a pagan or tax collector, just like Scripture says (Matthew 18:17).

I know I was accurate. Thank you for pointing that out. And I am also accurate in saying that the elders of The Church at the time set those men who were twisting doctrine straight by teaching sound doctrine, just like Paul instructed Titus (a elder of The Church) to do (Titus 1:9, 2:1). And Timothy, another elder of The Church (1 Timothy 6:3).

Who are the elders in your life that teach sound doctrine that you are imitating and submitting to Jim?

 

[Philip James]

Cant claim to know the church in alexandria ,

Pope Tawadros II - Coptic Orthodox Church

They have been out of full communion with the Church in Rome for more than 1500 years... Yet recognizably practice the one Faith, received from Christ through the apostles..

That even after 1500 years this is recognizably so, demonstrates the Holy Spirit acting through the authority of the bishops to preserve, correct and hand on the Faith!

Pax et Bonum

 

[Marymog]

None of them should decide what is truth until they all agree. They each go away and pray. They pray as individuals and they pray together. Then they study again. They pray for the truth to be revealed to them. And they keep studying and they keep praying until they come to understand. To do this they need two things... To be honest concerning their own inability to understand without God's help, and to have a love for truth...a love that says 'whatever the truth may be, we shall obey'.

Hmmm.....so here we are! 2,000 years after the death of Christ and men are still getting together, debating Scripture, praying together and individually about it so that THEY can discover the Truth! Isn't that called Protestantism? Of which has brought us MULTIPLE truths?

Like God hasn't already revealed the Truth to us....2,000 years removed from Jesus death. Your kidding me...Right? That is a nice theory!

 

[Marymog]

1- Me and my non-denom mates never disagree about Jesus, what's there to disagree about?..

Ok..I can see your not being serious so I bid you farewell.....

 

[Marymog]

In the Bible!

Lol.....Funny you should say that and it is even funnier that @Ferris Bueller and @Brakelite "liked" your statement.

I am willing to bet if the 3 of you got together, studied and debated Scripture, all three of you would disagree on what is sound doctrine even though you all read the same Bible. Soooooo your cute little "In the Bible" quip that was liked by men who disagree with you on doctrine makes no sense.

So let's get serious here: Scripture speaks of there being sound doctrine and false doctrine! So Jim B, which of you 3 have sound doctrine? You? Brakelite or Ferris B?

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

www.biblehub.com

Hey thanks Ferris. I went to that website that lists YOUR doctrine and I found this: Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. How do the members of your Church eat His flesh and drink His blood? What is your doctrine on that?

I also find this: There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism. What is your doctrine on that passage?

Curious Mary

 

[ScottA]

How is the Church teaching a lie not 'the gates of hell prevailing'?

If we cannot trust 'the pillar and ground of the truth' to teach truth, then we are all lost..

It is not as though these things were not foretold, they were. But the church believing and teaching a lie, does not mean the battle is not already won. Thus, such are tribulations only, the evils of this world creeping in--but that is not the end. Jesus is the End, and has prevailed already, even to the end of the age.

Please tell me how the Church has forsaken Christ?

Some of her members perhaps, but the Church cannot forsake her Master..

Christ and His Church are one!

"For this reason a man shall leave (his) father and (his) mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."

This is a great mystery, but I speak in reference to Christ and the church.

Pax et Bonum

The same was true of Israel, many cried out "Crucify Him!", and many played the harlot, but certainly not all. But this too was addressed by Jesus saying such things as, “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." Matthew 7:21 Which is not to say that He does not search every heart to know the truth, but rather that He does.

However, as for being one with His bride the church, just as He counselled to cut off your hand if it offend thee, this He would not consider differently for Himself. Many are called, but few are chosen.

 

[Marymog]

1- Ah, but who's to say Catholic doctrine is "sound"..
2- My non-denom doctrine is Jesus-centred,
Jesus said:-"You have one teacher, me" (Matthew 23:10)
and you can't get more sound than that, here ya go..-

View attachment 23936

Awesome Dropship. You get your doctrine from Matthew, Mark, Luke and John! And, as you stated before, no one in your group ever disagrees with each other. That is ever more awesome!!!

I am assuming you and your chums practice what Jesus said in John 6:54-58. Soooo how do you and your chums practice Jesus words in those passages?

 

[Philip James]

It is not as though these things were not foretold, they were.

Hello Scott,

Where is it foretold that the Church would teach a lie?

That some of its members would do so, certainly..
But they never and cannot prevail!
As you said the victory is assured! And the Church cannot do aught but follow in the footsteps of her Master!

For the Holy Spirit leads us into all Truth, and we have the mind of Christ!
That is very much a corporate we, and we refuse to submit our understanding to that of the Church for 2000 years at our peril!

If we are not willing to submit to the least of our brethren, are we worthy of the call?

When the global call for an end to the daily sacrifice comes, who will recognize it I wonder..

Pax et Bonum

 

[Marymog]

Each of us is responsible for our own discernment of the Bible and what others teach. Because each of us has an anointing to discern what is truth and what is not:

20You, however, have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.c
26I have written these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you.
27 ...the anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you.
1 John 2:20-27​

This is a clear Biblical truth that Catholics reject. You blindly relegate all matters of discernment to what has become a corrupt and Spirit-less leadership. You're free to post in this forum but I'm just going to tell you that you're not going to score any points among us Protestants. There's a large chasm between us and you and for a very good reason. We reject your scripted, Spirit-less, works justification religion.

Well, I guess if you twist Scripture enough, your theory works.

So your men have taught you that we all know the truth as long as we discern the Bible correctly! Interesting theory. So then why do you disagree with my truth? Or have I just not discerned Scripture properly. Can you really not see how your theory is not logical?

Also, how can you say that Catholics reject it? All you Protestants also disagree with each other on what is true. Can you really not see how your theory is not logical?

 

[Marymog]

No. The Catholic church organization does.

Hmmm.....so which Church does? After all, all you Protestants disagree with not only the Catholic Church but each other! you should re-think your theory.

 

[Marymog]

Because "the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it", does not mean the church would not fall to delusion for believing a lie. The same is true of Israel. They were not forsaken, but did forsake. Likewise the church.

1 Peter 4:17-18
For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 Now “If the righteous one is scarcely saved, Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?”
​

You are confusing The Church with members of The Church. The Church will not fall into delusion but members of The Church will fall into delusion. Those who do not obey The Church do not obey the gospel of God! Hint: Matthew 18:17

Members of The Church can not fulfill the pillar and foundation of truth spoken of in 1 Timothy 3:15! The Church can fulfill that passage which means the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it!

 

[ScottA]

Hello Scott,

Where is it foretold that the Church would teach a lie?

That some of its members would do so, certainly..
But they never and cannot prevail!
As you said the victory is assured! And the Church cannot do aught but follow in the footsteps of her Master!

For the Holy Spirit leads us into all Truth, and we have the mind of Christ!
That is very much a corporate we, and we refuse to submit our understanding to that of the Church for 2000 years at our peril!

If we are not willing to submit to the least of our brethren, are we worthy of the call?

When the global call for an end to the daily sacrifice comes, who will recognize it I wonder..

Pax et Bonum

It was foretold that false teachers were to enter into the church and the apostasy would ensue because of believing a lie. I believe I gave the scriptures already (sorry I'm on my phone or I would repost them).

As for the church doing the will of the Master, only 5 virgins are wise, but 5 foolish. Likewise, not all servants are faithful, but some are evil.

As for the daily sacrifice ending, it ended with Christ "the End."

 

[ScottA]

You are confusing The Church with members of The Church. The Church will not fall into delusion but members of The Church will fall into delusion. Those who do not obey The Church do not obey the gospel of God! Hint: Matthew 18:17

Members of The Church can not fulfill the pillar and foundation of truth spoken of in 1 Timothy 3:15! The Church can fulfill that passage which means the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it!

The church is the bride, and has no Master but One. For this reason women were to be silent.

The confusion is yours.

 

[Marymog]

The church is the bride, and has no Master but One. For this reason women were to be silent.

The confusion is yours.

Could you clarify. Are you telling me to be silent?

The Church is a bride because Jesus is a bridegroom. He spoke of Himself as the Bridegroom (cf. Mt 9:15; Mk 2:19-20, Lk 5:34-35) and the Church is the bride described in the Book of Revelation (21:2). St. Paul compared the relationship between Christ and his Church as that of a bridegroom and his bride: a headship that is expressed as a covenantal love of total self-giving for the sake of his spouse.

So, your off topic confusing rant has NOTHING to do with Post #455! Would you care to address post #455?

Also, notice how I used Scripture in post #455 to confirm the Truth of Scripture and you....well....you give your opinion!

 

[ScottA]

Could you clarify. Are you telling me to be silent?

If you knew the scriptures...you would know the answer to that is, No.

I was/we were speaking of the church, which Paul an apostle to the bride referred to for the sake of order in the church because of the squabbling. Sound familiar?

You see, the church being the "bride" of Christ, is not made up of brides and grooms, but only brides. Paul was referring to everyone in the church, including the men, the priests, and the elders--all who would be known as the bride. Which is not to say that he was not just referring to those local women--he was. But that is not the reason the same word has become the eternal word of God for the entire church age. God made it happen, working all things together for good for those who love Him according to His purpose...which is the raising up of the bride of Christ.

 

[ScottA]

The Church is a bride because Jesus is a bridegroom. He spoke of Himself as the Bridegroom (cf. Mt 9:15; Mk 2:19-20, Lk 5:34-35) and the Church is the bride described in the Book of Revelation (21:2). St. Paul compared the relationship between Christ and his Church as that of a bridegroom and his bride: a headship that is expressed as a covenantal love of total self-giving for the sake of his spouse.

So, your off topic confusing rant has NOTHING to do with Post #455! Would you care to address post #455?

Also, notice how I used Scripture in post #455 to confirm the Truth of Scripture and you....well....you give your opinion!

I did address it in post #457. You must have been blindsided by the women part and missed it.