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Ferris Bueller

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Who wants cold dead rituals?
Uh, Catholics?

When I got born again all of a sudden I had the Holy Spirit and all the scripted, carefully controlled, one-sided ceremonial worship (so-called) evaporated and I was liberated to know him and worship him up close and in person in joy. I'll never go back to cold dead, ritualistic religion. Christ is not there. I suddenly saw the difference between the church of the world and the real church of born again, Spirit-filled believers not confined by the walls of organized, scripted religion.
 
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ScottA

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Hi Scott,

Now there's a question.. :D

I would point out here that we're moving away from the discusssion about the celebration of the Eucharist being the fulfillment of Malachi 1:11 and are moving on to the actions of members of the Church..

The problem? That men can be proud, arrogant, selfish, cowardly, insensitive, lazy....

Lets start with 'lording it over others'. This leads to a discussion of authority in the Church, how is it excercised etc..

Does the abuse of legitimate authority negate that authority? Consider Saul and David..

If some of the members of the Church, (and especialy some of its elders) act contrary to the things the Church teaches, does that invalidate the Church?
What of all those holy men and women who have served faithfully and well?

Do we abandon the 11 because of Judas?

Are we so pure that we cant abide all these sinners that gather around Jesus?

Do the actions of our brethren justify rebellion and abandonment of the community?

When we look at the Church as a whole. Do we see the failings of men, or do we see the bride of Christ, washed clean in His Blood?

The Holy Spirit is not a spirit of division, but calls us to bear with one another in love!

Pax et Bonum
I jumped in, perhaps intruded, on your discussion with Ferris and the comments that have been an issue for the Catholic church, to offer a reason for it occurring--the reason. But don't get me wrong, my intention was not to climb on the bandwagon. I meant only to offer a cause and a solution, which I have done. But I would not and do not discount the massive amount of good that exists in the church and all that it has done. My intention has been to see correction where there has been error and what can even be considered what is right on topic regarding heretics that were foretold and have indeed worked their way into the church raking havoc.

So, no, we do not abandon the 11 because of Judas, etc., but we should reasonably and honestly be able to address the issue without retreating to our defenses or accusations of what is good or error. I do recognize the good, and it would seem that you recognize the error. But each of those positions does nothing to fix the problem...but can I fix you, or you fix me? No, but we must confess and repent, and sin no more. For which I can say, I love my Catholic friends and family and do not condemn but am honest. Nor do I consider there to be a dividing line between us, except where it is against me in offense--which does exist. In some cases I do see that same acceptance coming from Catholics--but not for the most part, but rather only as a rare exception.

Which is to say, that the rule that creates that divide, is not a standard laid down by Christ, but laid down and enforced and taught by the leaders of the Catholic church, and has been done for centuries. Which is not helped by defending it.

As it is--that is, what is true is owned by the leaders of the Catholic church. Thus the burden of change is upon the leaders, but also on the members. As long as she parades unbecomingly and unlike Christ, these things are not on those whom she has excluded, but upon all who partake.

We who are with and for Christ, whom the church has excluded, are not against the Catholic church, but are against those things that are not Christ-like.

So, what, will the lording over hierarchy, fanciful robes and such, and the exclusivity continue until the corrections come from on high...or will the church repent, change, and sin no more?
 

Illuminator

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I understand that there is 2,000 years of emotion involved with this issue (just as there was between Moses and Jesus).

But you are mistaking the power of God given to Christ and to His church, as a hierarchy among the church. What do the scriptures say? That Christ is the head over many wives of different authority? No, but only, "the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church."
The authority of the husband over the wife is a different topic to the authority given to the Church. The Holy Catholic Church teaches, through Scripture and Tradition, that the husband is the head of his family and has God-given authority over his wife and children. This gift of authority does not give a husband any greater dignity than his wife. Both are equal members of the marital covenant, as is reflected by God creating woman from the side of man (as opposed to his head or feet). Instead, this order of authority reflects the divine order between God, Christ and man. God blessed the marital covenant with this order to maintain peace and harmony in the family, the “domestic church.” Just as Christ is the Head of the Catholic Church (the family of God), so the father is the head of his domestic church (his family).

It does not follow that the authority of the husband over-rides ecclesial authority, which you are implying. They are two different things.
Matt. 16:18; 18:18 – Jesus uses the word “ecclesia” only twice in the New Testament Scriptures, which demonstrates that Jesus intended a visible, unified, hierarchical, and authoritative Church.

Acts 20:17,28 – Paul refers to both the elders or priests (“presbyteroi”) and the bishops (“episkopoi”) of the Church. Both are ordained leaders within the hierarchical structure of the Church.

Thus, the difference is not a hierarchy of authority, but of gifts only, and to each the power of God.
This leads to confusion between the gift of pastor-ship and the office of pastor. They are related but not one and the same. People with the gift of pastorship can create headaches for the one holding the office of pastor. "Gifts only" is gift worship, IMO. Manifesting gifts is no guarantee of doctrinal fidelity. The Pentecostal movement that began in the 19th century is divided into 100+ denominations, some of them degenerating into the heresy of Modalism, yet they have "gifts".
As for the church going "off the rails", I tell you, as history will attest, it was never fully on the rails. There were twelve apostles and one was a devil. There were seven churches named by Jesus of whom most he had somewhat against. And those planted by Paul, were they all exemplary? And today?
Basically, of course, this boils down to saying that we ought to renounce Catholic teaching and become good ol’ Protestants (preferably Calvinists) Sorry, Scott. It doesn’t work that way. Sin and truth are two different categories (in case you didn’t know that).

Sin will always be with us. This is why we have Christianity in the first place: to save men from sin (duh!!!). It’s called . . . original sin . . . concupiscence, etc. Certain brands of Christianity takes it even further than we do, holding that men have a “sin nature.” Yet they are surprised that sin — even very serious, especially evil sin, with cover-ups — occurs. But there is one truth, and that doesn’t change because some people in the ranks of where the Christian truth resides most fully, have sinned.

It’s a huge tragedy, disgraceful, abominable, unspeakably evil, but it doesn’t cause doctrinal truth to change. If Isaac Newton — heaven forbid — had been found having sex with a little boy, it wouldn’t alter the fact that gravity is a scientific truth. We wouldn’t reject his established, demonstrable teaching because he was personally a scoundrel.

St. Paul didn’t hesitate in calling the Corinthian assembly “the church of God” (1 Cor 1:2; 2 Cor 1:1; RSV) even though terrible sexual sin had occurred within its ranks. Somehow, our Lord Jesus still called the assembly of Christians in Thyatira “the church” (Rev 2:18), despite the presence therein of wicked sexual immorality. The Thyatira argument to discredit Church Authority doesn't hold water.
As for the Pope, not even Solomon--who was a king, was so adorned.
The vestments of the Old Testament priest are much more ornate than what the Pope wears, but you don't object to them. That would be politically incorrect. Customs and rubrics have nothing to do with Church Authority or doctrinal purity. The Pope is so adorned because of the office he holds, you think it's to glorify the person who holds the office. The SDA does the same stupid nonsense. Your objection to customs and rubrics is shallow and insulting.
But you are correct to say that the church would never be overcome by evil. But that does not make void that which was foretold regarding destructive heresies brought in by false teachers, teachers who now have many more children than she who has a husband.
The doctrine of the Trinity came into further development at the Council of Chalcedon in 451 A.D. in response to destructive heresies.
Fast forward to this century.
The Papal Encyclicals Online <no destructive heresies
That link gives a list of RECENT teachings that address concerns of today while your arguments are frozen in 16th century politics.
But now you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.
You should quote me where I have boasted in arrogance instead of making up false generalizations.
 
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ScottA

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The authority of the husband over the wife is a different topic to the authority given to the Church. The Holy Catholic Church teaches, through Scripture and Tradition, that the husband is the head of his family and has God-given authority over his wife and children. This gift of authority does not give a husband any greater dignity than his wife. Both are equal members of the marital covenant, as is reflected by God creating woman from the side of man (as opposed to his head or feet). Instead, this order of authority reflects the divine order between God, Christ and man. God blessed the marital covenant with this order to maintain peace and harmony in the family, the “domestic church.” Just as Christ is the Head of the Catholic Church (the family of God), so the father is the head of his domestic church (his family).

It does not follow that the authority of the husband over-rides ecclesial authority, which you are implying. They are two different things.
Matt. 16:18; 18:18 – Jesus uses the word “ecclesia” only twice in the New Testament Scriptures, which demonstrates that Jesus intended a visible, unified, hierarchical, and authoritative Church.

Acts 20:17,28 – Paul refers to both the elders or priests (“presbyteroi”) and the bishops (“episkopoi”) of the Church. Both are ordained leaders within the hierarchical structure of the Church.
None of that is a hierarchy of authority. The only authority given the church is over evil.

As for ecclesial authority, all authority belongs to the Head.
This leads to confusion between the gift of pastor-ship and the office of pastor. They are related but not one and the same. People with the gift of pastorship can create headaches for the one holding the office of pastor. "Gifts only" is gift worship, IMO. Manifesting gifts is no guarantee of doctrinal fidelity. The Pentecostal movement that began in the 19th century is divided into 100+ denominations, some of them degenerating into Modalism, yet they have "gifts".
What you call confusion, God has called order, which is ordered by the Spirit and not by men.

As for divisions and denominations, what concern is it of yours that God has appointed a body of many members, nations and peoples? Does one organ covet another? Do you not know how foolish that sounds?

Basically, of course, this boils down to saying that we ought to renounce Catholic teaching and become good ol’ Protestants (preferably Calvinists) Sorry, Scott. It doesn’t work that way. Sin and truth are two different categories (in case you didn’t know that).

Sin will always be with us. This is why we have Christianity in the first place: to save men from sin (duh!!!). It’s called . . . original sin . . . concupiscence, etc. Certain brands of Christianity takes it even further than we do, holding that men have a “sin nature.” Yet they are surprised that sin — even very serious, especially evil sin, with cover-ups — occurs. But there is one truth, and that doesn’t change because some people in the ranks of where the Christian truth resides most fully, have sinned.

It’s a huge tragedy, disgraceful, abominable, unspeakably evil, but it doesn’t cause doctrinal truth to change. If Isaac Newton — heaven forbid — had been found having sex with a little boy, it wouldn’t alter the fact that gravity is a scientific truth. We wouldn’t reject his established, demonstrable teaching because he was personally a scoundrel.

St. Paul didn’t hesitate in calling the Corinthian assembly “the church of God” (1 Cor 1:2; 2 Cor 1:1; RSV) even though terrible sexual sin had occurred within its ranks. Somehow, our Lord Jesus still called the assembly of Christians in Thyatira “the church” (Rev 2:18), despite the presence therein of wicked sexual immorality. The Thyatira argument to discredit Church Authority doesn't hold water.
I take that as a confession then. Good. But if it does not level the field for you--your offence is greater than theirs.

The vestments of the Old Testament priest are much more ornate than what the Pope wears, but you don't object to them. That would be politically incorrect. Customs and rubrics have nothing to do with Church Authority or doctrinal purity. The Pope is so adorned because of the office he holds, you think it's to glorify the person who holds the office. The SDA does the same stupid nonsense. Your viewpoint on customs and rubrics is superficial and insulting.
When the early church sold their possessions for the whole, did Peter outfit the apostles with finery? Did Paul, appoint leaders and instruct them to adorn themselves? No, but yes, traditions did come...and why, you say...that we might be as those of Israel who called for the crucifixion of Christ? Sounds like another confession. Good.

The doctrine of the Trinity came into further development at the Council of Chalcedon in 451 A.D. in response to destructive heresies.
Fast forward to this century.
The Papal Encyclicals Online <no destructive heresies
That link gives a list of RECENT teachings that address concerns of today while your arguments are frozen in 16th century politics.
I have no arguments except those that are now present and evident today.

You should quote me where I have boasted in arrogance instead of making up false generalizations.
That was a quote from scripture, which seemed fitting for one who defends a system of hierarchy within the bride of Christ over which there is but one Head.
 

Philip James

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I jumped in, perhaps intruded, on your discussion with Ferris

Hi Scott,

Oh no intrusion. This is an open forum, if I wished a private convo, I'd use a PM.. :eek:

I just wish to make sure that I have addressed your questions as to the offering of the Eucharist as the fullfillment of Malachi 1:11 before we moved on.

There is a lot to unpack in your ladt post here.. God willing, I'll have time to address it tomorrow.

Pax et Bonum
 

EloyCraft

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When the early church sold their possessions for the whole, did Peter outfit the apostles with finery? Did Paul, appoint leaders and instruct them to adorn themselves? No, but yes, traditions did come...and why, you say...that we might be as those of Israel who called for the crucifixion of Christ? Sounds like another confession. Good.
Not everyone is trapped in the loop of repeated history.
Heirarchal status causes a bias that most are unconscious of. Hierarchical status causes blindness Jesus addressed it here.

Mathew 20

And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.

22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.

23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

We see what He means on Calvary.

Luke 23

32 And there were also two other, malefactors, led with him to be put to death.

33 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.

34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
 
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Illuminator

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None of that is a hierarchy of authority. The only authority given the church is over evil.
I was clarifying your red herring of the authority of the husband that you obfuscated with the authority of the Church, as if it were one and the same.

As for ecclesial authority, all authority belongs to the Head.
Yes, all authority belongs to the Head, and Jesus shares HIS VERY OWN AUTHORITY when He commissioned them to teach and baptize. He didn't commission each individual believer to teach; He commissioned the Apostles. Jesus being the Head does not rule out ecclesial authority, which is a perfect example of a false dichotomy.
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: 20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.

What do you think "therefore" means? Clearly, Jesus was talking only to His Apostles, not each individual believer.
Is there not a connection with HIS authority and the authority given only to the Apostles to "make disciples of all nations"? Baptize? Teach? Your anti-authority individualism is not biblical. It's a tradition of men.
Furthermore, did the Apostles literally reach "all nations" themselves? Did they disobey Christ's command because they didn't have jet planes and helicopters to get to "all nations" in the first place? Think about it. This huge undertaking could only be achieved with Apostolic Succession, which your so called reformers threw in the trash.

What you call confusion, God has called order, which is ordered by the Spirit and not by men.
Sorry, the hopeless doctrinal confusion of 40,000+ denominations is not called order, it's called doctrinal chaos.
As for divisions and denominations, what concern is it of yours that God has appointed a body of many members, nations and peoples? Does one organ covet another? Do you not know how foolish that sounds?
You are obfuscating again, mixing things up to defend destructive individualism and relativism. The two errors go hand-in-hand. What's foolish is pretending Paul didn't condemn division. He did, and strongly.
I take that as a confession then. Good. But if it does not level the field for you--your offence is greater than theirs.
What offense? Saying truth doesn't change because there are sinners in the Church?
When the early church sold their possessions for the whole, did Peter outfit the apostles with finery?
Finery? You keep repeating the same stupid mockery because you have no development. Liturgical garb has meaning, developed over centuries. You have very little in common with the early church because you reject historical evidence, so you shouldn't even go there.
Did Paul, appoint leaders and instruct them to adorn themselves?
There you go again, mocking something you refuse to understand. What's that, 4 times now?
No, but yes, traditions did come...and why, you say...that we might be as those of Israel who called for the crucifixion of Christ? Sounds like another confession. Good.
Now you accuse me of crucifying Christ as those of Israel.
I have no arguments except those that are now present and evident today.
Your arguments are based on a wooden inflexible fundamentalist perspective, constantly flipping to different topics.
That was a quote from scripture, which seemed fitting for one who defends a system of hierarchy within the bride of Christ over which there is but one Head.
Scripture supports an authoritive, hierarchical Church with Christ as the head, (both/and) Scripture does not support your false dichotomy. (either/or)
 
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ScottA

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Hi Scott,

Oh no intrusion. This is an open forum, if I wished a private convo, I'd use a PM.. :eek:

I just wish to make sure that I have addressed your questions as to the offering of the Eucharist as the fullfillment of Malachi 1:11 before we moved on.

There is a lot to unpack in your ladt post here.. God willing, I'll have time to address it tomorrow.

Pax et Bonum
The Eucharist practice and what is expressed in Malachi 1:11 is symbolic of the taking up of Christ's body by the church and the ascension of Him in spirit as His church is joined with Him on high. Then comes the end.
 

ScottA

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I was clarifying your red herring of the authority of the husband that you obfuscated with the authority of the Church, as if it were one and the same.
I see I am going to have to take these one at a time.

There is no "red herring" or "obfuscation", but rather the analogy of marriage given in scriptures according to man being made in the image of God, a mystery which Paul later revealed after millennia and explained in greater detail; and this I rightly made reference to. It is not "one and the same" but points to the One. Nonetheless, the tenets are the same--and to think or to say differently, is to contradict the word of God.

Did you mean to contradict God in His use of marriage to show our union with Christ and the place and authority appointed to the bride?
 
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ScottA

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Yes, all authority belongs to the Head, and Jesus shares HIS VERY OWN AUTHORITY when He commissioned them to teach and baptize. He didn't commission each individual believer to teach; He commissioned the Apostles. Jesus being the Head does not rule out ecclesial authority, which is a perfect example of a false dichotomy.
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: 20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.

What do you think "therefore" means? Clearly, Jesus was talking only to His Apostles, not each individual believer.
Is there not a connection with HIS authority and the authority given only to the Apostles to "make disciples of all nations"? Baptize? Teach? Your anti-authority individualism is not biblical. It's a tradition of men.
Furthermore, did the Apostles literally reach "all nations" themselves? Did they disobey Christ's command because they didn't have jet planes and helicopters to get to "all nations" in the first place? Think about it. This huge undertaking could only be achieved with Apostolic Succession, which your so called reformers threw in the trash.
It would appear that you have your own way of defining what the scriptures say--but you have left out parts. Perhaps this is simply the way you were taught...which then would mean it is not just you, but also those who taught you. Which makes this a much bigger issue, perhaps a Catholic issue.

Anyway, starting out in your above comment, you refer to "to teach and baptize" as only commissioned to "the Apostles" (capital A), as if the twelve were the only ones "sent", which is the meaning of the word "apostle." But you have left out Paul's scriptural elaboration regarding spiritual gifts, saying, "And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers", referring to "the whole body" Ephesians 4:11-16.

But what authority is given in any and all of those gifts of the Spirit? It is merely the power of God to do His will according to His purpose. Or as Jesus clearly pointed out the Spirit (from whom all such gifts have their authority) "for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you." Which is to say that the authority seemingly given to "apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers" does not even belong to the Spirit from whom it comes. In other words (His words), the authority of any and all offices, is only "declared" to the person, as it was stated regarding the Spirit by Jesus as "not His own authority."

All authority is belongs to the Head, without whom we who are the church can do nothing.
 
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amigo de christo

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I'll take that as a 'yes', that if you don't participate in the Catholic rituals officiated by a Catholic priest you are lost.
He dont want to come out and say that , but he sure seems to believe it . Yet as for me i shall gather under no harlot
but rather under Christ and have simple fellowship with those who do the same . EOD . END OF DISCUSSION .
This lamb aint gonna budge . Either we are for CHRIST or we will be and are already decieved .
 

amigo de christo

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Hi Scott,

Now there's a question.. :D

I would point out here that we're moving away from the discusssion about the celebration of the Eucharist being the fulfillment of Malachi 1:11 and are moving on to the actions of members of the Church..

The problem? That men can be proud, arrogant, selfish, cowardly, insensitive, lazy....

Lets start with 'lording it over others'. This leads to a discussion of authority in the Church, how is it excercised etc..

Does the abuse of legitimate authority negate that authority? Consider Saul and David..

If some of the members of the Church, (and especialy some of its elders) act contrary to the things the Church teaches, does that invalidate the Church?
What of all those holy men and women who have served faithfully and well?

Do we abandon the 11 because of Judas?

Are we so pure that we cant abide all these sinners that gather around Jesus?

Do the actions of our brethren justify rebellion and abandonment of the community?

When we look at the Church as a whole. Do we see the failings of men, or do we see the bride of Christ, washed clean in His Blood?

The Holy Spirit is not a spirit of division, but calls us to bear with one another in love!

Pax et Bonum
Lets see that last line again . The HOLY SPIRIT is not of division . WELL that part is right .
BUT Lets examine what division really means shall we .
Mark those who cause DIVISIONS that are CONTRARY TO THE DOCTRINE YE LEARNED . AND HE went on to say
MARK and AVOID . SO me thinks , me knows and me believes that this end time UNITY of ROME
is a lie from hades sent out to simply allure the peoples to come back under her shade and to be as one with her .
WHO I might add has said Even muslims, buddists and etc are coming to GOD through their own relgion .
NOW WHO WANTS TO SIT UNDER SUCH A LIE as that . aS FOR ME , I SAY YE MUST BELIEVE IN JESUS
OR BE DAMNED . CAUSE OTHER GODS CANT SAVE YA ANYMORE THAN MAN CAN SAVE HIMSELF .
 

ScottA

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Sorry, the hopeless doctrinal confusion of 40,000+ denominations is not called order, it's called doctrinal chaos.

You are obfuscating again, mixing things up to defend destructive individualism and relativism. The two errors go hand-in-hand. What's foolish is pretending Paul didn't condemn division. He did, and strongly.

What offense? Saying truth doesn't change because there are sinners in the Church?
No...it is [biblically] called, a body of "many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ." Romans 12:5 1 Corinthians 12:12

As for division and offenses, yes, it is to be condemned. But that division only falls on those who stand divided in their claim of authority as being their own. Such a claim has but one father.
 
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ScottA

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Finery? You keep repeating the same stupid mockery because you have no development. Liturgical garb has meaning, developed over centuries. You have very little in common with the early church because you reject historical evidence, so you shouldn't even go there.
There you go again, mocking something you refuse to understand. What's that, 4 times now?
I understand it fine, but these many times you do not:

Matthew 23:5
But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments.
 
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ScottA

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Now you accuse me of crucifying Christ as those of Israel.
This is a big one--but not for you alone, even for Protestants and all who have believed the lie bringing upon themselves strong delusion. But do not take it as a personal attack--it is not, it is rather a fact involving much of the church. Indeed, the church for the most part has rejected the Truth, first in the flesh, and now in the spirit.
 
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ScottA

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Your arguments are based on a wooden inflexible fundamentalist perspective, constantly flipping to different topics.
Scripture supports an authoritive, hierarchical Church with Christ as the head, (both/and) Scripture does not support your false dichotomy. (either/or)
This has not been an argument or my perspective, nor even a discussion, but a declaration of the truth for our time.
 

EloyCraft

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How 'bout I just read my Bible and talk about it with others who read their Bibles and have fellowship and prayer and praise and worship with them and lose all the hocus pocus of cold dead rituals and scripted church gatherings?
Ferris, that's a good tradition. I love doin that very same thing. I know though, without the cold dead rituals you dislike so much, it's doubtful that you would have ever heard of Jesus. The liturgy is the innerrant Word of God expressed ritually. They convey the truth and the experience of the sacred better than words or songs. It is the Traditions of the Catholic Church that preserved Faith in Christ to modern times. I guarantee that your ' Christianity wouldn't be able to be passed down generation to generation.
 

EloyCraft

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But that division only falls on those who stand divided in their claim of authority as being their own. Su
If it had never been given then I could understand that view of authority.
Otherwise the alternatives are that it was supposed to be temporary or, Christ gave it and took it back for our deplorable witness or, those He gave it to are still around just unrecognized.
None of that makes sense.
A catch 22 is presented.

If a community of faith was given divine authority they would have to act as if it wasn't because having it would be unacceptable to a Christian culture that denies that anyone on earth teaches or knows the faith infallibly.
 

Illuminator

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So, what, will the lording over hierarchy, fanciful robes and such, and the exclusivity continue until the corrections come from on high...or will the church repent, change, and sin no more?
More stupid insults. The Catholic Church is far more INCLUSIVE than you can imagine. (CCC817-820) From the catechism:

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers .... All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

Toward unity

820 "Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time."277 Christ always gives his Church the gift of unity, but the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ wills for her. This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples: "That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, . . . so that the world may know that you have sent me."278 The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.279

We hand you an olive branch and you spit on it with stupid insults. I never met a Catholic that felt "lorded over" by the biblical hierarchy. It's fear mongering nonsense based on prejudice and ignorance.
Hebrews 13:17 says, "Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you."
What is the expiration date of this verse? 1517?