Spotting Heretics

[ScottA]

More stupid insults. The Catholic Church is far more INCLUSIVE than you can imagine. (CCC817-820) From the catechism:

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271​

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers .... All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

Toward unity

820 "Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time."277 Christ always gives his Church the gift of unity, but the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ wills for her. This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples: "That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, . . . so that the world may know that you have sent me."278 The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.279

We hand you an olive branch and you spit on it with stupid insults. I never met a Catholic that felt "lorded over" by the biblical hierarchy. It's fear mongering nonsense based on prejudice and ignorance.
Hebrews 13:17 says, "Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you."
What is the expiration date of this verse? 1517?

Your reaction is not unlike that of the Priests, Elders, and Pharisees of Israel, who were also offended, while the actual Authority who was not among them, but was above them, they rejected with a similar pomp. But you have learned nothing from their failures, but now do likewise.

 

[Josho]

-
Heretics, wherever they are found... should be taken seriously as being deceived by the Devil.

Spotting them is very easy.
As.....Every Heretic will believe that they can lose their salvation, as that is THE deception that is found in them all.
Some have really crazy Theology, but, the one common denominator is that they do not believe that Jesus or God = keeps them saved.

So, reader, when you dont believe that Jesus keeps you saved, HIMSELF< or GOD, HIMSELF< then what is left for you to believe that gets you into heaven?
What is it?

THINK !!!!!

Its YOURSELF.....trying to do something.... And that can be..."im holding unto my faith".. or "im keeping commandments", or
"I joined the one true Church".... Or..."im enduring to the end". "My salvation is all about ME ME ME ME doing something, vs, only trusting in Christ to get me to heaven" = which is the REAL FAITH.

See all that? ??
That is YOU Trusting YOU....as you dont TRUST CHRIST or God To get you into heaven, if you are a heretic.
What does that literally mean?
It means your faith is wrong, or broken. And Paul says you are "fallen from GRACE"<... "bewitched"...and "In the Flesh".
It means that Jesus is off the Cross, and YOU are up there on it, as your FAITH.

So, what is the worst thing about heretics as found on a Forum?
Its the fact that they can ruin your faith for life, and most especially the faith of a New Christian.
"christian" forums are deadly regarding a New Believer's Faith.
And that, is the one thing that the Devil wants..
He wants a new Christian to be FAITH DESTROYED, and then their entire life is nothing but nothing for God.

See, if you have a head full of theology and can teach it, then that is actually harmful unless what you teach is based on your correct understanding of the Grace of God as the BLOOD ATONEMENT, that is the foundation of your FAITH.
And when you are trying to keep yourself SAVED, and trying not to go to hell, then that is THE proof that you have no real faith in Christ.
Its gone, or was never there to begin with.

I would like to see a David Attenborough style documentary on this. "Spotting heretics"

"Though not a rare breed, they are not considered a "least of concern species" and can be often found twisting core Christian beliefs and misleading others, these species can be dangerous and often look for others to prey on to spread their heresy."

 

[Illuminator]

Now I'll address your next stupid insult, "fanciful robes and such". If you weren't so divorced from our Jewish roots, vestments would not be so hard for you to understand.

There are those, who make claims that vestments are "unbiblical" or "not Christian". The Scriptural support for vestments however, is extraordinary and specific. The Bible mentions jewels, gold, fine linens, colors of violet, purple, red, scarlet, etc. Despite the Scriptural support however, often times the Church's adherence to the scriptures in these matters are actually used as ammunition to attack the Church with, because of their "extravagant" vestments. I've even seen people claim that wearing purple vestments means the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon. Let's take a look at Sacred Scripture.

Exodus 28:2
And thou shalt make a holy vesture for Aaron, thy brother, for glory and for beauty.

Exodus 28:3
And thou shalt speak to all the wise of heart, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron's vestments, in which he being consecrated, may minister to me.

Exodus 28:4
And these shall be the vestments that they shall make: A rational and an ephod, a tunic and a strait linen garment, a mitre and a girdle. They shall make the holy vestments for thy brother Aaron and his sons, that they may do the office of priesthood unto me.

Exodus 28:5
And they shall take gold, and violet, and purple, and scarlet twice dyed, and fine linen.

Exodus 28:6
And they shall make the ephod of gold, and violet, and purple, and scarlet twice dyed, and fine twisted linen, embroidered with divers colours.

Exodus 28:7
It shall have the two edges joined in the top on both sides, that they may be closed together.

Exodus 28:8
The very workmanship also, and all the variety of the work, shall be of gold, and violet, and purple, and scarlet twice dyed, and fine twisted linen.

Exodus 28:37
And thou shalt tie it with a violet fillet, and it shall be upon the mitre,

Exodus 28:39
And thou shalt gird the tunic with fine linen, and thou shalt make a fine linen mitre, and a girdle of embroidered work.

Exodus 29:6
And thou shalt put the mitre upon his head, and the holy plate upon the mitre,
Exodus 39:1
And he made, of violet and purple, scarlet and fine linen, the vestments for Aaron to wear when he ministered in the holy places, as the Lord commanded Moses.

Exodus 39:2
So he made an ephod of gold, violet, and purple, and scarlet twice dyed, and fine twisted linen,

Exodus 39:3
With embroidered work, and he cut thin plates of gold, and drew them small into threads, that they might be twisted with the woof of the foresaid colours,

Exodus 39:4
And two borders coupled one to the other in the top on either side,

Exodus 39:5
And a girdle of the same colours, as the Lord had commanded Moses.

Exodus 39:6
He prepared also two onyx stones, fast set and closed in gold, and graven, by the art of a lapidary, with the names of the children of Israel:

Exodus 39:7
And he set them in the sides of the ephod, for a memorial of the children of Israel, as the Lord had commanded Moses.

Exodus 39:8
He made also a rational with embroidered work, according to the work of the ephod, of gold, violet, purple, and scarlet twice dyed, and fine twisted linen:

Exodus 39:9
Foursquare, double, of the measure of a span.

Exodus 39:10
And he set four rows of precious stones in it. In the first row was a sardius, a topaz, an emerald.

Exodus 39:11
In the second, a carbuncle, a sapphire, and a jasper.

Exodus 39:12
In the third, a ligurius, an agate, and an amethyst.

Exodus 39:13
In the fourth, a chrysolite, an onyx, and a beryl, set and enclosed in gold by their rows.

Exodus 39:14
And the twelve stones, were engraved with the names of the twelve tribes of Israel, each one with its several name.

Exodus 39:15
They made also in the rational little chains, linked one to another, of the purest gold,

Exodus 39:16
And two hooks, and as many rings of gold. And they set the rings on either side of the rational,

Exodus 39:17
On which rings the two golden chains should hang, which they put into the hooks that stood out in the corners of the ephod.

Exodus 39:18
These both before and behind so answered one another, that the ephod and the rational were bound together,

Exodus 39:19
Being fastened to the girdle, and strongly coupled with rings, which a violet fillet joined, lest they should flag loose, and be moved one from the other, as the Lord commanded Moses.

Exodus 39:20
They made also the tunic of the ephod all of violet,

Exodus 39:21
And a hole for the head in the upper part at the middle, and a woven border round about the hole:

Exodus 39:22
And beneath at the feet pomegranates of violet, purple, scarlet, and fine twisted linen:

Exodus 39:23
And little bells of the purest gold, which they put between the pomegranates at the bottom of the tunic round about:

Exodus 39:24
To wit, a bell of gold, and a pomegranate, wherewith the high priest went adorned, when he discharged his ministry, as the Lord had commanded Moses.

Exodus 39:25
They made also fine linen tunics with woven work for Aaron and his sons:

Exodus 39:26
And mitres with their little crowns of fine linen:

Exodus 39:27
And linen breeches of fine linen:

Exodus 39:28
And a girdle of fine twisted linen, violet, purple, and scarlet twice dyed, of embroidery work, as the Lord had commanded Moses.

Exodus 39:29
They made also the plate of sacred veneration of the purest gold, and they wrote on it with the engraving of a lapidary: The Holy of the Lord:
Leviticus 6:10
The priest shall be vested with the tunick and the linen breeches; and he shall take up the ashes of that which the devouring fire hath burnt: and putting them beside the altar,

Leviticus 6:11
Shall put off his former vestments, and being clothed with others, shall carry them forth without the camp, and shall cause them to be consumed to dust in a very clean place.

Leviticus 8:13
And after he had offered his sons, he vested them with linen tunicks, and girded them with girdles: and put mitres on them as the Lord had commanded.
Ezekiel 42:14
And when the priests shall have entered in, they shall not go out of the holy places into the outward court: but there they shall lay their vestments, wherein they minister, for they are holy: and they shall put on other garments, and so they shall go forth to the people.

Ezekiel 44:17
And when they shall enter in at the gates of the inner court, they shall be clothed with linen garments: neither shall any woollen come upon them, when they minister in the gates of the inner court and within.

Ezekiel 44:18
They shall have linen mitres on their heads, and linen breeches on their loins, and they shall not be girded with any thing that causeth sweat.

Why Does The Priest Wear Special Clothing For Mass?

This special clothing is called vestments. The style of the vestments dates from around the year AD 400; after the Church had emerged from Roman persecution and resembles the clothing worn at that time by Roman citizens. The colors (red, violet, white and green) have special symbolic significance.
Red vestments, representing blood, are worn when celebrating the events of Jesus' Passion, and feasts for the martyrs of the Church.
Violet, signifying preparation and anticipation, is worn during the time of Advent and Easter; the weeks leading to Christmas and Easter respectively.
White, the symbol of purity, is worn for happy celebrations such as Christmas, Easter, and feasts recognizing saints who were not martyrs.
Green, the color of life and growth, is worn at all other times.

As to the biblical basis for vestments, see Exodus 28 which not only says for priestly garments to be made, it also gives the details of their construction. There is nothing in the New Testament which prohibits vestments. From the time of Christ until the 5th Century vestments were not worn because of the persecution and a desire not to look like the Jewish priesthood. Once the persecution stopped, the priests no longer kept up with the changing fashions and the vestments of today resulted."

Conclusion

Liturgical vestments are prescribed by God, to the priesthood at it's inception. They are commanded by God, to be holy, beautiful, colorful, and made of fine cloth and with precious stones and Gold. At no point in the Bible are vestments prohibited. Only commanded.
Vestments - Apostolic Apologetics
The abolishment of vestments is a man made tradition. It's simply not in the Bible.

 

[Illuminator]

Your reaction is not unlike that of the Priests, Elders, and Pharisees of Israel, who were also offended, while the actual Authority who was not among them, but was above them, they rejected with a similar pomp. But you have learned nothing from their failures, but now do likewise.

Your false charge of "exclusivity" gets demolished, and this your best response??? When was actual Authority rejected? It always boils down to that one issue, doesn't it? You are so used to spiritualizing the actual, because according to you, Jesus never shared His all authority with sinful human beings. Some of the disciples were stubborn; did they still doubt after the miracle of the Ascension? How can authority work on earth if it is invisible? I look forward to a well thought out reply.

 

[Marymog]

Baptism saves in the very way that Peter means that. What water baptism does NOT do is make a person righteous (it does not justify them). That happens entirely on the basis of one's faith in God's promise of a Son, just as it was for Abraham, our example of how we, too, are justified (made righteous) entirely on the basis of faith in God's promise of a Son apart from works (Romans 4:6, Romans 4:23-24).

Hey Ferris...We agree. Water baptism alone does not save us and it does not justify them.

Just like faith alone does not save us because faith without works is dead (James 2:24, Romans 2:6). We must ALSO repent (Acts 2:38, 2 Peter 3:9) confess with our mouths (Romans 10:9, Luke 12:8) and know the Truth (1 Timothy 2:4) and if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for those sins (Hebrews 10:26).

I expect I am just telling you something you already know since you knew all those passages from Scripture besides the two passages from Romans you cherry picked.....It takes a lot more than faith and baptism to become saved!

 

[Marymog]

The actual blood and body of Christ sacrificed for the sin of the world is in heaven, not here on earth (Hebrews 9:24). Believers take the effect of Christ's blood and body placed on the altar in heaven into themselves BY FAITH. Just as the effect of all the other OT sacrifices, of which Christ's body is the reality, are received into ourselves BY FAITH, not by the actual blood and body of Christ being in us.

That is an interesting doctrine your men have taught you Ferris!

Here are the facts: Jesus said that we must eat his body! Right before he said that He equated His body to real bread which was the manna that their ancestors ate! After that He held up a piece of bread and said this IS my body! Several years later Paul equated eating his body and drinking his blood to real bread and wine (1 Corinthians 10)! Soooo I am not sure how your men can throw out the words of Jesus and Paul to come up with that doctrine...... but so be it.

I am wondering something though.

Jesus taught us a prayer and in that prayer he says "give us this day our daily bread". Now we know that the NT Christians had "daily bread" together and they believed that bread they were eating was a participation in the body of Christ (just like Paul said it was and 1st century historical Christians doctrine say it was)! What they believed and practiced, equating bread to His body for their "daily bread", line up perfectly with the words of Jesus, Paul, and 1st century Catholic practice.

What have your men taught you about how to get your "daily bread" that Jesus taught us to pray for? What is daily bread for you and your men?

Curious mary

 

[Marymog]

I accept that challenge. If you can search my posts going back several years and find where I am in disagreement with scripture, the ball then goes to Ferris or Jim. Good luck.

Well @Ferris Bueller and @Jim B it looks like Braklite just declared he preaches sound doctrine so the ball is in your court.

Does either of your doctrine disagree with his?

 

[Marymog]

I see you're trying very hard to convolute what I said, lol.
Contrary to what the Catholic church teaches, each individual believer has within himself the God given anointing to discern whether or not what they are being told or taught is the truth or not. The Catholic leadership says that is not true, and that they alone are able to discern what is truth and what is not. In Catholicism, instead of the sheep hearing His voice, the Catholic leadership hears His voice for you and then tells you what is truth. That's what cults do. They're too afraid to let the sheep hear for themselves. It's a control mechanism.

Oh Ferris....The Church does teach the Truth because The Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth......Just like Scripture says. And if we disobey that Truth we are to be treated as a pagan or tax collector. Remember those 2 passages? No where at no point EVER does Scripture say what you seem to believe; that each individual man can come up with his own Truth and it be the Truth.

So if you want to call The Church a cult then that is YOUR misreading of Scripture.

Mary

 

[Marymog]

If you knew the scriptures...you would know the answer to that is, No.

I was/we were speaking of the church, which Paul an apostle to the bride referred to for the sake of order in the church because of the squabbling. Sound familiar?

You see, the church being the "bride" of Christ, is not made up of brides and grooms, but only brides. Paul was referring to everyone in the church, including the men, the priests, and the elders--all who would be known as the bride. Which is not to say that he was not just referring to those local women--he was. But that is not the reason the same word has become the eternal word of God for the entire church age. God made it happen, working all things together for good for those who love Him according to His purpose...which is the raising up of the bride of Christ.

Thanks for your opinion....

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Hey Ferris...We agree. Water baptism alone does not save us and it does not justify them.

I'm saying water, with or without faith, has no saving power whatsoever to transform a person into a child of God. The 'faith' part of 'faith and baptism (and other obedience of faith)' does that all by itself, just as it did for Abraham, our example of we, also, are justified (declared righteous) by believing in God's promise of a Son apart from doing works of righteousness to obtain God's declaration of righteousness.

Just like faith alone does not save us because faith without works is dead (James 2:24, Romans 2:6).

Faith that is alone (faith that produces no work - James 2:24) can not transform you into a child of God because it is not genuine faith. It if was, it would have works to validate it as being genuine (1 John 3:10).

We must ALSO repent (Acts 2:38, 2 Peter 3:9) confess with our mouths (Romans 10:9, Luke 12:8) and know the Truth (1 Timothy 2:4) and if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for those sins (Hebrews 10:26).

I expect I am just telling you something you already know since you knew all those passages from Scripture besides the two passages from Romans you cherry picked.....It takes a lot more than faith and baptism to become saved!

Faith ALL BY ITSELF transforms a person into a born again child of God, and so a person is saved, not potentially saved, at the moment they have faith in God (John 5:24). The evidence that accompanies the born again experience (Hebrews 6:9) is what Jesus will use as the criteria by which you will then be saved from going into the lake of fire at the final judgment (Matthew 25:34-36). You have to distinguish between being saved by becoming a child of God when you first believe (John 5:24), and being 'saved' from destruction at the final judgement, like when a person is 'saved' from the destruction of a forest fire or a raging flood.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

No where at no point EVER does Scripture say what you seem to believe; that each individual man can come up with his own Truth and it be the Truth.

I see you're still not getting it, lol.
I did not say that. I said each believer has within himself the anointing from God to know if what he hears (what he is taught) is the truth or not (1 John 2:20, 1 John 2:26-27). The Catholic church disagrees with John. It says, "no, we will tell you what is truth and what is not."

So, if you'll just be careful to see what I'm saying this isn't about inventing one's own truth. It's all about knowing who's telling you the truth and who is not. The Catholic church says the believer is not equipped to do that but must accept their claim to apostleship and blindly trust in their ability to discern truth for you. That's one of the defining marks of a CULT!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Oh Ferris....The Church does teach the Truth because The Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth.

See, your problem is you instantly define 'church' as 'the catholic church'. Instead of what it actually is - the body of true believing people.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

And if we disobey that Truth we are to be treated as a pagan or tax collector.

Absolutely!
What I'm resisting is the Catholic organization's definition of truth. Not that we are to submit to the truth.

 

[Marymog]

I'm saying water, with or without faith, has no saving power whatsoever to transform a person into a child of God. The 'faith' part of 'faith and baptism (and other obedience of faith)' does that all by itself, just as it did for Abraham, our example of we, also, are justified (declared righteous) by believing in God's promise of a Son apart from doing works of righteousness to obtain God's declaration of righteousness.

We agree: water, with or without faith, has no saving power whatsoever to transform a person into a child of God. It takes MANY things to become a child of God (saved): faith, get baptized, works, repent, confess with our mouths and not sin willfully after we have been given the Truth (deny the Truth).

 

[Marymog]

Absolutely!
What I'm resisting is the Catholic organization's definition of truth. Not that we are to submit to the truth.

Well Ferris, as Scripture says, The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. Which Church is that if not the Catholic Church?

 

[Marymog]

See, your problem is you instantly define 'church' as 'the catholic church'. Instead of what it actually is - the body of true believing people.

Nope, Scripture does not say that The Church is "the body of true believing people". The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. Not all believers have the truth. The Church is who we are to go to so that we can settle our differences and if a person does not obey The Church they are to be ex-communicated. Can I ex-communicate you if you don't accept MY truth? Or vice a versa? Scripture does not teach what your men have taught you.

Instead of giving your opinion how about if you cite some Scripture to back up what your men have taught you?

 

[Michiah-Imla]

and if a person does not obey The Church they are to be ex-communicated

And if the “church” does not obey the Holy Bible…?

Follow the logic through.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth

Not when it rejects the truth of the word!

 

[EloyCraft]

See, your problem is you instantly define 'church' as 'the catholic church'. Instead of what it actually is - the body of true believing people.

But what you describe as a Church bears no resemblance to the Church Jesus started.

If my brother is believing something never taught before I might have to take him to a higher authority than my self and others. If He won't listen to those with authority to teach the faith Then there is no higher authority to go to on earth. Would your vision of the Church be equipped to resolve such issues? If I asked where I can take my brother for correction would you be able to point it out and tell me to take him there?

 

[Marymog]

I see you're still not getting it, lol.
I did not say that. I said each believer has within himself the anointing from God to know if what he hears (what he is taught) is the truth or not (1 John 2:20, 1 John 2:26-27). The Catholic church disagrees with John. It says, "no, we will tell you what is truth and what is not."

So, if you'll just be careful to see what I'm saying this isn't about inventing one's own truth. It's all about knowing who's telling you the truth and who is not. The Catholic church says the believer is not equipped to do that but must accept their claim to apostleship and blindly trust in their ability to discern truth for you. That's one of the defining marks of a CULT!

I apologize for not understanding what you are saying.

If your theory was true, that "each believer has within himself the anointing from God to know if what he hears (what he is taught) is the truth or not", then why do so many denominations or individual Christians believe they are teaching or KNOW the Truth? They all believe what they teach is the Truth because they all believe they have "the anointing from God". Can you not see how your theory takes you in a big circle: Ferris knows his men are teaching him the Truth because the men that are teaching him have the anointing from God so they must be teaching the truth because it is God who is anointing them into the Truth even if their Truth disagrees with men who have an anointing from God!

Your men have taught you that 1 John 2 speaks directly to you about YOU. That YOU have an anointing from the Holy One and that YOU know the truth. What if YOUR truth differs from the men who taught you that? Who is anointed by the Holy One? You or them?

1 John is written to Christians who are under the leadership of the men of The Church who have already taught them the Truth. Who were those men of The Church that taught them the truth Ferris? Take a look at Acts 2:28 for the answer. The Truth was taught to those Christians by the men of The Church and they all agreed on that ONE Truth. John is not saying that whatever Truth each individual that reads his letter knows THE TRUTH. He is saying that what you have been taught by the men of the Truth is the Truth. Can you see how what your men have taught you is wrong?

And once again you are right. We follow Scripture and accept that The Church, which is the pillar and foundation of truth, is teaching us the Truth. If we don't accept that truth we are to be treated as a pagan or tax collector.

If I am in a cult of 1.2 billion (number of Catholics worldwide) for accepting the Truth of The Church then you are in a cult of 1 since you accept YOUR truth.