Spotting the Heretic

[RogerDC]

The most carnal church in the New Testament is the Corinthian Church.
This is the group that is worried about " spiritual gifts", because all babies worry about gifts.
IN this church community, a young born again believer, was "fornicating" with his step mother.
Paul had the church shut Him out for a while.
After some time, Paul told this group to let the boy back in., and they did.

So, what does this prove? It proves you can "sin willfully" and you are still saved.

I have no idea how many times this young man fornicated with his dad's new wife, but i suspect it was more then once. Did he understand it was wrong, it was fornication?....Uh huh. It proves that a believer can commit fornication. Lots of them do. That is one more sin forgiven 2000 yrs ago.​

These comments proves that you’re absolutely clueless … and definitely NOT “born again”.

You are delivered from this carnal behavior by Grace, not by will power.

Nonsense. Grace doesn’t turn believers into robots that cannot sin. Grace works in cooperation with the believer’s free will, and grace can be overcome/denied by the believers free will, leading to sin.

In Colossians 3:5-11, Paul implies believers use their own free will to resist sin : “Put to death what is earthly in you: immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry … In these you once walked, when you lived in them. But now put them all away … ” (Col 3:5-11).

It proves you can still “sin willfully” and you are still saved …. You are delivered from this carnal behavior by Grace, not by will power.

Pray tell, O Wise One, if you can “’sin willfully’ and still be saved”, why would you need to be “delivered… by Grace” from any sin?

 

[RogerDC]

Not in the case of a born again Believer.
Grace has replaced the law.

In that case, explain why Paul says this:
“Do we then overthrown the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law” (Romans 3:31).

You sin because you are involved by your wrong believing, with the Law.

Scripture says sin is the transgression of the law, so if we sin, we sin against a law. If there is sin, there is law - if there is no law, there is no sin. All believers sin (1John 1:8) - because all believers transgress the laws of God.

 

[RogerDC]

Without GOD's Holiness, we shall not see God, is what you mean to say, but dont understand.

You seem to have trouble comprehending the simple words of scripture. Heb 12:14-16 says, “Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord … that no one be immoral or irreligious, like Esau”. Here, the context of “holiness” is clearly not God’s holiness, but the holiness (aka righteousness) of the believer, which is obtained by striving to keep God’s commandments.

Here is a parallel verse: “As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, but as He who called you is holy, BE HOLY YOURSELVES IN ALL YOUR CONDUCT, since it is written, ‘You shall be holy, for I am holy’. And if you invoke as Father Him who judges each one impartially according to his DEEDS, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile.” (1Peter 1:14-17).
And again,
“Put to death what is earthly in you: immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these things, the wrath of God is coming. In these you once walked, when you lived in them. But now put them all away … seeing that you have put off the old man, with his practices, and have put on the new man, who is being renewed in knowledge after the image of his creator ” (Col 3:5-11).

God's holiness is Justification by faith, the "gift of Righteousness".

You need to spend a bit more time reading your Bible sometime … the NT clearly says we are not justified by faith alone, but by faith and works - James 2:24. No one is saved by faith alone, because “faith without works is dead” (James 2:26). Paul also preaches salvation by faith and works, as does John. “Righteousness” is works.

Our "sin" has been REPLACED by GOD's RIGHTEOUSNESS.

In that case, why does Paul warn believers in Gal 5 and 1Cor 6 that their SINS can result in them not inheriting the kingdom of God?

There is No SIN in Christ, as its been dealt with BY Jesus's Blood and The CROSS.

You seem to be implying that a believer can lie, rape, steal, murder and pillage and still be saved. Only an idiot or a lunatic would subscribe to such a pathetically stupid doctrine.

 

[RogerDC]

Have you given to a beggar on the street???

So you're saying a believer must love his neighbour by doing good deeds. I agree. What happens if a believer doesn't love his neighbour? Does it matter?

What if a believer steals from someone instead of helping them? Does it matter?

 

[RogerDC]

Am i here to answer foolish questions?

My question wasn't foolish: You claim you are saved, and I asked you how you know you are saved. But - surprise, surprise - you can't tell me. All you can give me is your opinion, that you are saved - which is just meaningless hot air.

Do you really think Christ will take any notice of your opinion of yourself come Judgement Day?

Only the born again will understand this reality.

Reality and a personal opinion can be two very different things.

 

[Nancy]

I'm not familiar with Andrew Farley.

Also..

OSAS is not always the same definition.
A heretic will teach it like this.....>"that is saying you can live like the devil now that you have a license to sin".
And that would be the wrong understanding of OSAS.

OSAS, just means that what saved you, keeps you saved.
Jesus who saved you, keeps you saved.
The blood of Jesus that saved, you, keeps you saved.
=OSAS


Are you teaching that by "abiding in him", you keep yourself saved by YOU doing that?.... and if you dont "abide", you are going to go to hell?

Are you are trying to say that if a person walks away from doing Christian works, they were not really saved to begin with...
As that would be different then being a Backslider, as this person is born again, but not walking in discipleship.

"Are you teaching that by "abiding in him", you keep yourself saved by YOU doing that?.... and if you dont "abide", you are going to go to hell?"

No! I keep myself from sinning doing that. I'm not "teaching" anything at all! And to me, "abiding" in Him simply means that if you are led by the Spirit...you will not fulfill the deeds of the flesh because He lives in you, . It's a sin thing to me I suppose as, it hurts me to grieve the Spirit.

Please Behold, do you really think I don't know that we do not and could never do anything to "earn" or "keep" our salvation?

"Are you are trying to say that if a person walks away from doing Christian works, they were not really saved to begin with... <---Depends on what you mean by "Christian works" and, no I do not say this person is not saved but, their works will burn up and that 'said' Christian will lose out on "reward..."s"?

Yes, "the blood of Jesus" does "keep us saved" yet what of all the other scriptures I posted?

"As that would be different then being a Backslider, as this person is born again, but not walking in discipleship."

Being a disciple is simply a follower of Christ, also a pupil who grows in knowledge and grace (IMHO)

Backsliding can also be seen in a couple of ways, some say it is "falling" into sin, others say it is "living in sin"...either way, in the backslid-den state, one is not "in Christ" So, can they come back to Him? I did. I left the Church in the late 90's and went back into the world, I was miserable attending the Church, and will not get into the reasons why...have shared once and that was enough... But I can say that, HE never stopped nagging me! Nothing fulfilled, empty, empty, empty. Fast forward quite a few years...FULL surrender to Him showed me with no doubt, that I never was saved those years back. Never...and I knew I wasn't, that is why I left the Church yet...still believed!

Ephesians 2:3
"At one time we all lived among them, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath."

Funny how all that time away from the Church and Jesus, nothing ever felt right, or fulfilled. Sometimes He will bring us to our knees..... and He brought me to my face to get our attention. Time is nothing to God as He already has seen what will happen...but when the realization hit that He never left my side, it was I who left His!...it was like everything changed from that point on and not even a desire to do the things I did, nor did I miss the life I had led for decades!!

So, OSAS can be taken to extremes, I know but...where does one cross the line??

 

[RogerDC]

So, OSAS can be taken to extremes, I know but...where does one cross the line??

No one is eternally saved until after death, when the believer is judged by Christ and hopefully granted eternal life. To claim that one is eternally saved NOW is not only meaningless hot air, it is an absurd delusion. Worse, it's a form of blasphemy, because only Christ can declare someone eternally saved.

 

[justbyfaith]

No one is eternally saved until after death, when the believer is judged by Christ and hopefully granted eternal life. To claim that one is eternally saved NOW is not only meaningless hot air, it is an absurd delusion. Worse, it's a form of blasphemy, because only Christ can declare someone eternally saved.

He has declared us eternally saved, who have heard His word and believed on the One who sent Him.

Jhn 5:24, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

The one who hears Jesus' words and believes on the Father shall not come into condemnation but is passed from death unto everlasting life.

When do they pass from death into everlasting life? The moment they believe in the Father as they have understanding of the words of Jesus Christ.

 

[Davy]

I didn't say in that post that the believer who turns away from Christ can ever come back. I said that if anyone clings to Christ, they cannot lose their salvation.

But I will say this: if anyone thinks that they have lost their salvation, John 6:37 would tell you that if you come to Christ, casting yourself upon His mercy, He will by no means cast you out.

You do realize that in the above, you are saying one thing in the first paragraph, and then in the next paragraph you are saying just the opposite?

Of course our Lord Jesus would never reject a faithful believer on Him. But that's not the subject Paul was covering in those Hebrews 6:4-8 verses, now is it? No. He was talking about the 'believer' who chooses to turn away from Christ, huge... difference.

And I think it was @Nancy who posted what Peter said also about this subject in 2 Peter 2:20-22, which is the same idea about a believer turning away from Christ.

 

[FollowHim]

We dont abide and endure by Faith.
We are "in Christ", through redemption which causes us to abide.

You are still trusting in your faith as your savior.
And as i told you a few times, your Faith didn't save you, and can't keep you saved.
God saved you through your faith, and God keeps you saved according to His faithfulness, not yours.

Philippians 1:6

Everything we do is by faith. Faith is our walk, our beginning and our end. It defines the relationship we have with Christ, the trust.
Paul had faith, and this was sorely tested.

8 We do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about the hardships we suffered in the province of Asia. We were under great pressure, far beyond our ability to endure, so that we despaired even of life.
9 Indeed, in our hearts we felt the sentence of death. But this happened that we might not rely on ourselves but on God, who raises the dead.
10 He has delivered us from such a deadly peril, and he will deliver us. On him we have set our hope that he will continue to deliver us,
11 as you help us by your prayers.
2 Cor 1:8-11

Abiding in Christ is everything, so that we rely on Him and no one else. God bless you

 

[FollowHim]

Yes, very good Marks,
I suppose it all boils down to whether one has His Spirit within them, which... just brings us right back to OSAS ...and weather or not I believe OSAS, matters not at all when it comes to salvation.

It is on this point that the aggressive believers pivot. They claim belief in OSAS underpins the security we have in Christ, so all those with this security will believe this. Where they fail is in working the logic through, into changing faith and positions, which mean one goes from being saved to being lost and the enemy. But for this to be true, OSAS must be false. Or put another way, in their belief system we are either saved and OSAS is true, ie belief in it does not matter, or we are lost, which means OSAS is false, because we have lost salvation going from belief to unbelief in OSAS. Whichever way you look at it, belief in OSAS is irrelevant, the elect are the elect.

On this foundation, those who hold OSAS is the touchstone of belief are committing the sin of judgementalism against the elect. On this basis, being blind to this sinful behaviour, while continuing in it, they themselves show their own lack of a true walk with Christ, to the extent of not knowing His love in their hearts. If one holds a Kingdom cannot be divided against itself, if you end up condemning the elect, you are not one of them.

The apostles were very strong on loving the people of God. It was one of the real signs of faith in God, like OSAS is falsely being used.

9 Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness.
10 Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble
1 John 2:9-10

If I am hated for sharing Christs love and living His way, then truly those who believe like this live in darkness.
Now dear brothers and sisters. Because they hold very similar beliefs to our own, their emotional actions declare the state of their hearts. Where there is such darkness, light will not shine, which is why we become their enemy, to a degree which for me is unimaginable.

To put this into context, every belief system group, makes enemies of those closest to them, but different enough to pollute their idealism and in their eyes to become the worst betrayers of all. So this aspect of behaviour of people is very common, but equally of this world and not of the Kingdom of God. And Praise the Lord, in Christ it makes no difference, just that they declare what their faith actually is, an ideology and not a living experience in Christ. God bless you

 

[mjrhealth]

On this foundation, those who hold OSAS is the touchstone of belief are committing the sin of judgementalism against the elect.

Hmm

But you see as I posted before, His Elect would never boast of such a thing. Anyone can make them self "elect', it is God that calls, doesnt come from reading a bible. Look at our other friend said He is a watch man because he read it in the bible, there are many claiming position of authority they have never being given, that is theft.

 

[FollowHim]

Hmm

But you see as I posted before, His Elect would never boast of such a thing. Anyone can make them self "elect', it is God that calls, doesnt come from reading a bible. Look at our other friend said He is a watch man because he read it in the bible, there are many claiming position of authority they have never being given, that is theft.

There are many problems and issues that we all have to varying degrees.
What is being addressed is for me the obvious heresy of claiming OSAS is the basis of being elect or an anti-Christ.
This thread was started to try and argue being a heretic fitted certain criteria.

I am suggesting using OSAS as a pivot of a real walk with Jesus is heretical.
I hold with OSAS for the elect, but this is not me saying OSAS defines reality or truth, in fact pushing OSAS defines a lack of truth and trust in the cross and our walk in Jesus. This is ironic, but it is also similar to the reality of why God is hidden in this world, to be discovered through love and repentance, not power and dominance. God bless you

 

[justbyfaith]

You do realize that in the above, you are saying one thing in the first paragraph, and then in the next paragraph you are saying just the opposite?

I am saying that I did not say the first time what I said the second time. You claimed I said it the first time. I did not. But in my second statement I wanted to make it clear to you that I would have said it if it had been called for, for me to say it.

Look at our other friend said He is a watch man because he read it in the bible, there are many claiming position of authority they have never being given, that is theft.

Thankfully I have not stolen anything from the Lord. He has truly given me the commission of being a watchman here on these boards. But those who would preach false doctrine (such as the concept that reading the Bible is a sin) fight against the idea of my being a watchman because they are the wolves that the watchman is looking for to expose so that they will not do harm to the real body of Christ here.

Don't think that if someone is faithful to the Lord, he won't be attacked by those who would seek to deceive with deception. For the faithful ones will expose the ones who are unfaithful; because the faithful word of the Lord is something that cannot retunr void; and it will accomplish the purpose for which it was sent; part of which has to do with exposing false dostrine.

 

[mjrhealth]

but it is also similar to the reality of why God is hidden in this world,

That is no reality, God is not hidden, people just wont seek Him. and He is not in this world as He is not of this world. God gives all who come to Christ His Spirit so they can have access to God, if men refuse Him, that is not His doing. He has much He can teach us but so few willing to learn. They worship me with there lips.

 

[mjrhealth]

(such as the concept that reading the Bible is a sin

You said that, no one else has, self justification is it not. Do you even know what a watchman does...

 

[Nancy]

It is on this point that the aggressive believers pivot. They claim belief in OSAS underpins the security we have in Christ, so all those with this security will believe this. Where they fail is in working the logic through, into changing faith and positions, which mean one goes from being saved to being lost and the enemy. But for this to be true, OSAS must be false. Or put another way, in their belief system we are either saved and OSAS is true, ie belief in it does not matter, or we are lost, which means OSAS is false, because we have lost salvation going from belief to unbelief in OSAS. Whichever way you look at it, belief in OSAS is irrelevant, the elect are the elect.

On this foundation, those who hold OSAS is the touchstone of belief are committing the sin of judgementalism against the elect. On this basis, being blind to this sinful behaviour, while continuing in it, they themselves show their own lack of a true walk with Christ, to the extent of not knowing His love in their hearts. If one holds a Kingdom cannot be divided against itself, if you end up condemning the elect, you are not one of them.

The apostles were very strong on loving the people of God. It was one of the real signs of faith in God, like OSAS is falsely being used.

9 Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness.
10 Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble
1 John 2:9-10

If I am hated for sharing Christs love and living His way, then truly those who believe like this live in darkness.
Now dear brothers and sisters. Because they hold very similar beliefs to our own, their emotional actions declare the state of their hearts. Where there is such darkness, light will not shine, which is why we become their enemy, to a degree which for me is unimaginable.

To put this into context, every belief system group, makes enemies of those closest to them, but different enough to pollute their idealism and in their eyes to become the worst betrayers of all. So this aspect of behaviour of people is very common, but equally of this world and not of the Kingdom of God. And Praise the Lord, in Christ it makes no difference, just that they declare what their faith actually is, an ideology and not a living experience in Christ. God bless you

Being treated as an enemy of the OSAS folks is a very shocking thing, and it hurts when treated as such. After going to a Reformed Baptist Church, not knowing they were reformed at that point, then learning from the pastor himself that he is a 5 point Calvinist. I told him that I was not and could not believe that way. Oh boy was i treated very, very cold and not just by him but especially his wife who saw herself as more of a "Puritan" (her words) she never once said hello back to me, I was shunned by many and since they did not know me personally, what else would have made them be that way other than my beliefs? That was my first and (hopefully) the only bad experience I ever had with a Church and it was a shock to my to my spirit to be treated that way. Very hurtful and confusing to me.
It is a sad thing knowing The Father is looking down on his kids fighting with each other all the time. It makes me think of how moms can get overwhelmed when her kids fight and argue all the time, haha!

Thank you for the reply,
nancy

 

[Behold]

These comments proves that you’re absolutely clueless … and definitely NOT “born again”.Nonsense. Grace doesn’t turn believers into robots that cannot sin. ?

You're a fool to accuse me of not being born again.

Also, i dont teach that Grace turns anyone into a "sinless robot"
What i teach is what Paul teaches regarding your position "in Christ".
He told you this..>"if you walk in the Spirit you shall not sin".. "wont commit works of the Flesh".

So, if you are sinning and repenting, you are not walking in the Spirit.
Paul teaches that to stop this carnal Christianity, you are to REST in the understanding of God's Grace that frees you from trying to "live right" by self effort. As this is to "walk in the flesh" and when you do that, the Law will take control of your flesh, and cause you to sin MORE. (commit more works of the FLESH).
So, its by Right Believing that you are able to stop this from happening, as Paul teaches is the "Victory" over sin, and as i teach in most of my Threads.

 

[Behold]

In that case, explain why Paul says this:
“Do we then overthrown the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law” (Romans 3:31). Scripture says sin is the transgression of the law, so if we sin, we sin against a law. If there is sin, there is law - if there is no law, there is no sin. All believers sin (1John 1:8) - because all believers transgress the laws of God.

To uphold the law is to have a perfected discipleship.
If you have this, you are not sinning, so, you are "Upholding the Law".

Are you sinning and repenting? Then you not upholding the law, are you.
So, your problem is wrong believing.

 

[Behold]

You seem to have trouble comprehending the simple words of scripture. Heb 12:14-16 says, “Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord ….

The "holiness" that allows you to "see the Lord" is to have "the Righteousness of God" as yours.
Its only God' righteousness that is "HOLY"< and so, you have to have HIS very righteousness to see the Lord.
This is "the gift of Righteousness" that is to be Born again, which puts you "IN CHRIST"< where you SEE the Lord,... as He is in you, if you are born again, as you are "in Christ"... if you are born again.