Spotting the Heretic

[Behold]

"Are you teaching that by "abiding in him", you keep yourself saved by YOU doing that?.... and if you dont "abide", you are going to go to hell?"

No! I keep myself from sinning doing that. I'm not "teaching" anything at all! And to me, "abiding" in Him simply means that if you are led by the Spirit...you will not fulfill the deeds of the flesh because He lives in you, . It's a sin thing to me I suppose as, it hurts me to grieve the Spirit.

Please Behold, do you really think I don't know that we do not and could never do anything to "earn" or "keep" our salvation?

"Are you are trying to say that if a person walks away from doing Christian works, they were not really saved to begin with... <---Depends on what you mean by "Christian works" and, no I do not say this person is not saved but, their works will burn up and that 'said' Christian will lose out on "reward..."s"?

Yes, "the blood of Jesus" does "keep us saved" yet what of all the other scriptures I posted?

"As that would be different then being a Backslider, as this person is born again, but not walking in discipleship."

Being a disciple is simply a follower of Christ, also a pupil who grows in knowledge and grace (IMHO)

Backsliding can also be seen in a couple of ways, some say it is "falling" into sin, others say it is "living in sin"...either way, in the backslid-den state, one is not "in Christ" So, can they come back to Him? I did. I left the Church in the late 90's and went back into the world, I was miserable attending the Church, and will not get into the reasons why...have shared once and that was enough... But I can say that, HE never stopped nagging me! Nothing fulfilled, empty, empty, empty. Fast forward quite a few years...FULL surrender to Him showed me with no doubt, that I never was saved those years back. Never...and I knew I wasn't, that is why I left the Church yet...still believed!

Ephesians 2:3
"At one time we all lived among them, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath."

Funny how all that time away from the Church and Jesus, nothing ever felt right, or fulfilled. Sometimes He will bring us to our knees..... and He brought me to my face to get our attention. Time is nothing to God as He already has seen what will happen...but when the realization hit that He never left my side, it was I who left His!...it was like everything changed from that point on and not even a desire to do the things I did, nor did I miss the life I had led for decades!!

So, OSAS can be taken to extremes, I know but...where does one cross the line??

Please Behold, do you really think I don't know that we do not and could never do anything to "earn" or "keep" our salvation?


Yes i know, but you emphasize "abiding" as if its keeping you saved.
So that is why i wanted you to explain this more clearly.




Yes, "the blood of Jesus" does "keep us saved" yet what of all the other scriptures I posted?

What of them?
They are all related to "discipleship". Its found here as the same.. "present your body a living sacrifice". = We do that....but not to stay saved...but because we ARE saved.


Backsliding can also be seen in a couple of ways, some say it is "falling" into sin, others say it is "living in sin"...either way, in the backslid-den state, one is not "in Christ" So, can they come back to Him? I did.
So, OSAS can be taken to extremes, I know but...where does one cross the line??

God didn't take you back.
You were always His..
We don't repent our way back into the family.
We are just a family member, who either behaves accordingly or behaves badly.
WE can't stop being BORN just because we can be offensive to God regarding our behavior.
God does not include a condition to being born again, along with FAITH.
He does not say....>"Ok, once you believe in Jesus and are born again, just remember you have to be perfect in your behavior if you want to stay out of HELL".
God did not put that (self effort) demand in the Plan of Salvation, tho millions of His children would swear that this is the case.
And of course that makes the Devil happy.

 

[marks]

...and weather or not I believe OSAS, matters not at all when it comes to salvation.

When we truly know God, I think He gives us our assurance inside.

Much love!

 

[Behold]

Everything we do is by faith. Faith is our walk, our beginning and our end. It defines the relationship we have with Christ, the trust.

Abiding in Christ is everything, so that we rely on Him and no one else. God bless you

Faith ...

There is the Faith that God accepts "once", - Trusted Christ, and you are born again, being "justified by Faith", at that TIME.
And that creates "eternal life", and God living in you.
This is "eternal security".

But then, there is the walk of Faith.
This is you existing in a completed Salvation, that was gained by Jesus, and given as "the Gift of Salvation".
So, this walking out your faith, is not to keep yourself saved, but its just the normal course of being a Disciple and learning how to do this, as you Grow in God's Grace that..(God's Grace) is the reason you are become a disciple to begin with, = God's Atonement.

 

[Behold]

When we truly know God, I think He gives us our assurance inside.

Much love!

Yes.
John says... that you can KNOW.......that you have eternal life.
Salvation is not a guessing game, where you lose it, get it back, lose it....get it back.
Salvation is COMPLETED and GIVEN AS A GIFT. = From GOD.
If you are born again, you never have to worry about losing the Salvation that JESUS CREATED by His blood, death, and Resurrection, that GOD GAVE TO YOU when you first Trusted in Christ.
Its ETERNAL, if you are born again.

 

[marks]

Yes.
John says... that you can KNOW.......that you have eternal life.
Salvation is not a guessing game, where you lose it, get it back, lose it....get it back.
Salvation is COMPLETED and GIVEN AS A GIFT. = From GOD.
If you are born again, you never have to worry about losing the Salvation that JESUS CREATED by His blood, death, and Resurrection, that GOD GAVE TO YOU when you first Trusted in Christ.
Its ETERNAL, if you are born again.

This reminds me also of . . .

Romans 8
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

The Spirit bears witness with our spirit, an example is in the previous verse, you have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry Abba.

We've received His Spirit, and it is by His Spirit that we cry Abba. It's in union with the Spirit that God is our Father, and that we know Him that way. No one can be united to the Holy Spirit and not know it.

It's so good to be a lost sheep that has been found!

Much love!

 

[Behold]

This reminds me also of . . .

Romans 8
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
The Spirit bears witness with our spirit, an example is in the previous verse, you have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry Abba.
We've received His Spirit, and it is by His Spirit that we cry Abba. It's in union with the Spirit that God is our Father, and that we know Him that way. No one can be united to the Holy Spirit and not know it.
It's so good to be a lost sheep that has been found!

Much love!

The blood of Jesus never fails to keep you (the Born again) CLEAN, in the Eyes of GOD.

Our sin is 2000 Yrs ago GONE.

 

[marks]

The blood of Jesus never fails to keep you (the Born again) CLEAN, in the Eyes of GOD.

Our sin is 2000 Yrs ago GONE.

Not only "in the eyes of God", but in reality as well. The blood of Jesus is cleansing us from all sin, we who are created patterned after God, in righteousness and true holiness.

Much love!

 

[Behold]

Not only "in the eyes of God", but in reality as well. The blood of Jesus is cleansing us from all sin, we who are created patterned after God, in righteousness and true holiness.

Much love!

Future sin, daily sin, past sin, the memory of sin's committed......its ALL GONE.
Jesus's Blood has resolved it all for the Born again.

Welcome to : Amazing Grace

 

[Nancy]

Please Behold, do you really think I don't know that we do not and could never do anything to "earn" or "keep" our salvation?


Yes i know, but you emphasize "abiding" as if its keeping you saved.
So that is why i wanted you to explain this more clearly.




Yes, "the blood of Jesus" does "keep us saved" yet what of all the other scriptures I posted?

What of them?
They are all related to "discipleship". Its found here as the same.. "present your body a living sacrifice". = We do that....but not to stay saved...but because we ARE saved.


Backsliding can also be seen in a couple of ways, some say it is "falling" into sin, others say it is "living in sin"...either way, in the backslid-den state, one is not "in Christ" So, can they come back to Him? I did.
So, OSAS can be taken to extremes, I know but...where does one cross the line??

God didn't take you back.
You were always His..
We don't repent our way back into the family.
We are just a family member, who either behaves accordingly or behaves badly.
WE can't stop being BORN just because we can be offensive to God regarding our behavior.
God does not include a condition to being born again, along with FAITH.
He does not say....>"Ok, once you believe in Jesus and are born again, just remember you have to be perfect in your behavior if you want to stay out of HELL".
God did not put that (self effort) demand in the Plan of Salvation, tho millions of His children would swear that this is the case.
And of course that makes the Devil happy.

"We don't repent our way back into the family.
We are just a family member, who either behaves accordingly or behaves badly."

So, as you say I emphasize "abiding" you emphasize NOT repenting when we do wrong, or grieve the Spirit??
See, you and I will never agree here. If I lose my temper, and get into a cursing and angry attitude...I am totally convicted, feel horrible when it happens but...I DO repent of it and ask for His help with this sin that so besets me! It is not directed at people, it is when I am alone and cannot find something or cannot put something together that should have been an easy enough thing to do. Now...I simply ask Him each day to keep me away from the temptation to lose my cool and, when putting things together (I have a desk needing to be put together right now, and am going to attempt putting it together with Gods help as, He does do things for me if I am trusting and ABIDING in Him, it's when I do not even acknowledge Him over these things that I fail like, every time and then the cursing and frustration come out. So, I choose to acknowledge Him in ALL my ways and, what a difference when we do that! Night and day to me.

So to me, abiding simply means to live in Him or remain in Him. And, I find when I am NOT abiding in Him, I fall into sinning and doing the thing I most do NOT want to do...but if I AM abiding in Him...things just go smoother!

"God didn't take you back.
You were always His.."

Yes, I do agree...as I said in a previous post, He never left my side, it was ME who walked away. But, He never stopped calling me back into the fold and, the second time around was a total turn around as, He opened my eyes and I couldn't stop rejoicing over and over again! The first time coming to Him, I was not saved and I know it. BUT...He loves us so much that He will not let His children stay in that condition.

"Ok, once you believe in Jesus and are born again, just remember you have to be perfect in your behavior if you want to stay out of HELL".

I do not recall saying anything close to this. Only Jesus was the perfect human, and there is not a human on this earth who is perfect. Not to mention, thinking one is perfect in all their ways is pretty dangerous!
Self effort "for salvation" is not something I have read anyone on here say. Nor do I believe they think that, although there may be some on here that go with that and, there are lot's of "religions" who DO believe we are saved by our works.
I do not say I am sinless but I can certainly say that I do not PRACTICE sinning, I HATE sin as God does so...why would a "Christian" want to wallow in it??

Well Behold, I think we have discussed all of this a few times and, we know where we both stand and, I respect your take yet...I still believe that abiding IN Christ is vital so as NOT to "sin" and, to grow in Him and the knowledge OF Him, not for salvation.
God Bless,
nancy

 

[Nancy]

When we truly know God, I think He gives us our assurance inside.

Much love!

WORD!

 

[Behold]

"We don't repent our way back into the family.
We are just a family member, who either behaves accordingly or behaves badly."

So, as you say I emphasize "abiding" you emphasize NOT repenting when we do wrong, or grieve the Spirit??

Actually what i "emphasize" is that if you are sinning and repenting, its because you believe wrong.
ive said this hundreds of times in Threads, and maybe over 1000 times in Posts.
Hard to miss it, unless a person isn't really reading and they are just scanning or less...

A person who is sinning, confessing, and repenting, does not see, as God sees....= Jesus BECAME ALL their sin on the Cross, and died for it........ instead they see it on themselves.
God sees this.... Colossians 2:13
This person does not believe that the Blood of Jesus forgave ALL sin, as this person only believes that their sins they committed from the age of accountability TO the Cross, are redeemed, but none after.
They believe that those are their responsibility to Resolve.
The Cross does not agree..
So, they practice a.... "im cleaning my own sin by repenting", type of wrong believing, that does nothing except relieve them of their condemnation and guilt Trip.
So, once that relief comes, they think this is ""God making me clean again,"" as if God didn't already do that on the Cross for the whole world 2000 yr ago, but does not apply it, till you BELIEVE.
ONCE YOU DO< you are born again and Jesus has paid for all you sin. Colossians 2:13

And this "i need to repent to get my sin resolved again"... wrong believing puts them under the dominion of the Law, which causes their flesh and their sin consciousness to rule them, and that is why they will sin and repent till they DIE.
So, what i "emphasize" is how to not be that failed Discipleship.

thx, for the conversation.
enjoyed it.


-B

 

[2 Chr. 34:19]

Being treated as an enemy of the OSAS folks is a very shocking thing, and it hurts when treated as such. After going to a Reformed Baptist Church, not knowing they were reformed at that point, then learning from the pastor himself that he is a 5 point Calvinist. I told him that I was not and could not believe that way. Oh boy was i treated very, very cold and not just by him but especially his wife who saw herself as more of a "Puritan" (her words) she never once said hello back to me, I was shunned by many and since they did not know me personally, what else would have made them be that way other than my beliefs? That was my first and (hopefully) the only bad experience I ever had with a Church and it was a shock to my to my spirit to be treated that way. Very hurtful and confusing to me.
It is a sad thing knowing The Father is looking down on his kids fighting with each other all the time. It makes me think of how moms can get overwhelmed when her kids fight and argue all the time, haha!

Thank you for the reply,
nancy

 

[Nancy]

Actually what i "emphasize" is that if you are sinning and repenting, its because you believe wrong.
ive said this hundreds of times in Threads, and maybe over 1000 times in Posts.
Hard to miss it, unless a person isn't really reading and they are just scanning or less...

A person who is sinning, confessing, and repenting, does not see, as God sees....= Jesus BECAME ALL their sin on the Cross, and died for it........ instead they see it on themselves.
God sees this.... Colossians 2:13
This person does not believe that the Blood of Jesus forgave ALL sin, as this person only believes that their sins they committed from the age of accountability TO the Cross, are redeemed, but none after.
They believe that those are their responsibility to Resolve.
The Cross does not agree..
So, they practice a.... "im cleaning my own sin by repenting", type of wrong believing, that does nothing except relieve them of their condemnation and guilt Trip.
So, once that relief comes, they think this is ""God making me clean again,"" as if God didn't already do that on the Cross for the whole world 2000 yr ago, but does not apply it, till you BELIEVE.
ONCE YOU DO< you are born again and Jesus has paid for all you sin. Colossians 2:13

And this "i need to repent to get my sin resolved again"... wrong believing puts them under the dominion of the Law, which causes their flesh and their sin consciousness to rule them, and that is why they will sin and repent till they DIE.
So, what i "emphasize" is how to not be that failed Discipleship.

thx, for the conversation.
enjoyed it.


-B

"A person who is sinning, confessing, and repenting..."

To me, this is a person who "lives in sin". And, yes...they are like in a constant vicious cycle! Like, God's on a swivel chair and they think when they do "good", He is back to loving them again,when they do bad, God then swivels away from them, and that's no way to live the Christian life, yes I agree.

Repenting is just turning around to go back in the right direction and away from sin. When I fall short, I DO repent and tell Him how sorry I am to have grieved His Spirit
and I just thank Him for the forgiveness He has already given me 2000 years ago. Then I pray to have the self control, and patience that the fruit of the Spirit produces.

I know there are many who believe Christ only died for the sins they committed "before" coming to faith in Him. I happen to believe He died for ALL sin. I mean, how many sins did we commit when He died? None, of course so...yes, He died for all sin for all time...some will accept this awesome gift and some will not. But, I will ALWAYS tell God I am deeply sorry for things I do that is not in line how He want's us to be. And, I will always repent of (or turn away from) sin. I know He forgave me for all sin I might commit, that is why I will say to Him when I do something not Christian-like "thank you Lord for forgiving me for what I just did" But, I'll still express my deep sorrow to Him and pray for His strength to keep going in the right direction.

"And this "i need to repent to get my sin resolved again"... wrong believing puts them under the dominion of the Law, which causes their flesh and their sin consciousness to rule them, and that is why they will sin and repent till they DIE.
So, what i "emphasize" is how to not be that failed Discipleship.

What I see as the problem here is that people think that repentance is solely for forgiveness and for "keeping their salvation", and that is not correct, IMHO...it is simply a "turning away" Also...if we fall into sin, are we not sorry for it? Does it not hurt or bother us that we might have grieved His Spirit? It sure does with me.

thx, for the conversation.
enjoyed it."

Me too

 

[Nancy]

Lol...it's all good now, and I do believe God sent me there for a reason, and I believe it was answer to my prayer, to a Tee! Only because after a couple months there, the woman who runs an awesome soup kitchen and pantry and a ton of other services there...all free and 5 blocks from my home! After services, I couldn't get to her fast enough! I said, I will see you tomorrow, and have been going there to volunteer ever since, for 3.5 years

My mistake was not connecting it all...if I was not sitting in that Church that day...I would never have known about the place (it's called The Genesis Center) And, after that , I should have left that Church because in hindsight, I can see it more clearly now how He was working in my life...behind the scenes

He pulled me out of a very dark place by directing me to The Genesis Center. I had to stop working after 43 years of working, along with part time jobs on the side...so. going from 100 MPH for that long to nothing at all left me feeling like I had no purpose in life and what will I do?? Well, for 2 years after stopping working, I just drank myself to sleep every single day...just wanted to be numb. Oh how He works!!!!!!!!

 

[2 Chr. 34:19]

"A person who is sinning, confessing, and repenting..."

To me, this is a person who "lives in sin". And, yes...they are like in a constant vicious cycle! Like, God's on a swivel chair and they think when they do "good", He is back to loving them again,when they do bad, God then swivels away from them, and that's no way to live the Christian life, yes I agree.

Repenting is just turning around to go back in the right direction and away from sin. When I fall short, I DO repent and tell Him how sorry I am to have grieved His Spirit
and I just thank Him for the forgiveness He has already given me 2000 years ago. Then I pray to have the self control, and patience that the fruit of the Spirit produces.

I know there are many who believe Christ only died for the sins they committed "before" coming to faith in Him. I happen to believe He died for ALL sin. I mean, how many sins did we commit when He died? None, of course so...yes, He died for all sin for all time...some will accept this awesome gift and some will not. But, I will ALWAYS tell God I am deeply sorry for things I do that is not in line how He want's us to be. And, I will always repent of (or turn away from) sin. I know He forgave me for all sin I might commit, that is why I will say to Him when I do something not Christian-like "thank you Lord for forgiving me for what I just did" But, I'll still express my deep sorrow to Him and pray for His strength to keep going in the right direction.

"And this "i need to repent to get my sin resolved again"... wrong believing puts them under the dominion of the Law, which causes their flesh and their sin consciousness to rule them, and that is why they will sin and repent till they DIE.
So, what i "emphasize" is how to not be that failed Discipleship.

What I see as the problem here is that people think that repentance is solely for forgiveness and for "keeping their salvation", and that is not correct, IMHO...it is simply a "turning away" Also...if we fall into sin, are we not sorry for it? Does it not hurt or bother us that we might have grieved His Spirit? It sure does with me.

thx, for the conversation.
enjoyed it."

Me too

Lol...it's all good now, and I do believe God sent me there for a reason, and I believe it was answer to my prayer, to a Tee! Only because after a couple months there, the woman who runs an awesome soup kitchen and pantry and a ton of other services there...all free and 5 blocks from my home! After services, I couldn't get to her fast enough! I said, I will see you tomorrow, and have been going there to volunteer ever since, for 3.5 years

My mistake was not connecting it all...if I was not sitting in that Church that day...I would never have known about the place (it's called The Genesis Center) And, after that , I should have left that Church because in hindsight, I can see it more clearly now how He was working in my life...behind the scenes

He pulled me out of a very dark place by directing me to The Genesis Center. I had to stop working after 43 years of working, along with part time jobs on the side...so. going from 100 MPH for that long to nothing at all left me feeling like I had no purpose in life and what will I do?? Well, for 2 years after stopping working, I just drank myself to sleep every single day...just wanted to be numb. Oh how He works!!!!!!!!

i love how He works in spite of us and our circumstances...as for the drink, I’ve been there. He sets the captives free

 

[Nancy]

i love how He works in spite of us and our circumstances...as for the drink, I’ve been there. He sets the captives free

Amen, He sure set this captive free!!! ❤

 

[Davy]

I am saying that I did not say the first time what I said the second time. You claimed I said it the first time. I did not. But in my second statement I wanted to make it clear to you that I would have said it if it had been called for, for me to say it.

Duh? I think you may need to speak with someone else.

 

[Enoch111]

ive said this hundreds of times in Threads, and maybe over 1000 times in Posts.

Given that fact, perhaps it is time for you to just shut up and learn, instead of trying to teach that which is false and misleading.

 

[marks]

Given that fact, perhaps it is time for you to just shut up and learn, instead of trying to teach that which is false and misleading.

Hi Enoch,

What do you find false and misleading exactly?

Much love!

 

[justbyfaith]

You're a fool to accuse me of not being born again.

Are you not in danger of hell fire for saying that (Matthew 5:22)?

You may think that you are not because of your doctrine. However, God is no respecter of persons and he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done (Colossians 3:25). He scourges every son whom He receives. And the doctrines of grace do not nullify Jesus' warnings concerning sins that are grievous in His sight. True grace gives us the power to not walk in sins that Jesus declares His judgments over.

Your statement was not directed to me (for I did not accuse you of not being born again). But the scriptures must be brought to bear on everything.