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Featured Strict monotheism cannot be a pragmatic hypothesis

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by shnarkle, Sep 14, 2019.

  1. shnarkle

    shnarkle Well-Known Member

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    God is a self-contained hypothesis, the manifestation or revelation of something totally different from anything else in our experience. It can neither be verified nor falsified. These two criteria cannot be applied to something that does not claim to be subservient to our reason. If there were a convincing mathematical proof of the existence of God, God would be a mathematical object.

    We need an image or icon of the divine adapted to our means of perception which is why we have an anthropomorphic idea of God.

    The God of monotheism stands above all human principles and requirements of the human mind. If we claim that God permits evil, God cannot be good and omnipotent, or the contradiction between free will and predestination; then we have already abandoned monotheism.

    God does not descend to the moral round table of logical, philosophical, mathematical, or ethical discussions because he is infinitely beyond all of this. Those who think otherwise are degrading monotheism, and simply using it to justify their own beliefs and judgments. God cannot be used to certify our uncertainties, or a "God of the gaps" to cover our uncertainties and ignorance.

    God overrules whatever is repugnant to our reason or ethics. To accept monotheism is to overcome whatever immoral commands the God who is the very ground of our awareness, and moral sense has given us.

    There is nothing extraordinary about an Abraham acquiescing to God's command to kill his only son, for God is the one who has given him this sense of moral nausea in the first place. Lest we forget, this is the same God who has already told Abraham to pack his stuff and leave his home with no destination in mind as well as commanding him to slice off the foreskin of his penis. None of this makes any sense.

    While one is free to disbelieve in such a Being that transcends all creatureliness in favor of their own sense of truth and goodness, to put conditions on God's existence forces one to admit that they are just unbelievers playing with words. We're just believing in this God only as far as he suits our judgments or standards which we then turn around and pretend that God has given us.

    This approach spotlights that we haven't overcome anthropocentric humanism. We're still seeking to make God in our own image and likeness rather than surrendering ourselves to God without conditions. There is no essential difference between the atheist and theist at this point. They both have the same criteria for their respective beliefs. One has created a god, while the other one rejects the god created.

    Theologians will point out that the God they are talking about is logical, humane, good, etc. This may be true, but then our priorities are in our belief in ourselves and our own criteria which informs us that the "God hypothesis" is quite reasonable. That's not monotheism. We can't transcend our homocentrism by giving priority to the epistemological status of such rational or reasonable claims to God's revelation.

    If there is a monotheistic God, it cannot be at our service, or the service of our reason. God is not a pragmatic hypothesis.
     
  2. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    Fortunately perhaps the writer of the OP, @Shnarkles , has already long ago placed me on his 'ignore' list. I realized this must be case for while I have responded to his carnal writings a few times, he has never answered me... not a single word, not a single post. Not expecting him to change now I only respond here at all for the benefit of anyone who may not realize how far away from being a Christian [a follower of Jesus] he is. He has admitted openly on this forum that he is not a "Christian" but he phrased his words carefully to allow himself wiggle room to escape a negative conclusion if deemed necessary.

    He may be 'good' at human logic, but he certainly does not understand God. He cannot. Do any of the rest of us? Yes, any of us, who really believe in God and are striving to understand and accomplish His will, have a measure of real understanding: more than the writer of the OP who presents himself as dead and blind and deaf to God and the things of God.

    Read these words penned by Isaiah hundreds of years prior to the birth of Jesus to Mary in Bethlehem in which God explains plainly His position to us:

    "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
    For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
    For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
    So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." Isaiah 58:8-11


    We may NOT understand all of His purposes, but if we have really acknowledged Him when He drew us to Christ and we have allowed the Holy Spirit to work in us and to direct us according to His Word, the understanding or complete face to face vision is coming closer to us. But a vision is essential to real Life!

    "Where there is no vision, the people perish:..." Prov 29:18
     
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  3. Philip James

    Philip James Well-Known Member

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    Hello shnarkle,

    Unless, of course, HE places Himself at our service.

    The unknowable can only be known if it reveals itself to us... And He has! To know Jesus is to know The Father.

    You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

    Peace be with you!
     
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  4. prism

    prism Blood-Soaked

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    How did you come to this first premise of yours?
     
  5. 4Jesus

    4Jesus Well-Known Member

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    Hi Amadeus, how are you?

    I have recently joined you on the list of ignored by shnarkle. I don't know what he's doing here, by his own words, which are hypocritical at best.

    The post which I'm discussing is in reply to my question "And still no answer to one of my many questions. Again, are you a Christian?":
    "The term has come to be so closely associated with hypocrisy that it can have no other meaning. I know of no one who holds the title who follows in Christ's footsteps. No, I am not a Christian, and never will be. It is a pointless label. The only thing it is good for is in rejecting those who use it. Whenever someone points out that they're a Christian, I run the other way. Christians never answer a direct question. Case in point: you. Christians fabricate nonsense out of whole cloth. Again, you provide a prime example with your own private definition of a parable."

    This is found in post #81 of the thread: Christianity's love of the world will be its downfall.

    He stated he'll never be a Christian, and he only rejects those who use it. The hypocricy is that he stated he runs the other way whenever someone points out that they're a Christian, except in this instance, on a Christian forum...heh.

    Anyway, take care.
    In Christ.
     
  6. shnarkle

    shnarkle Well-Known Member

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    We only have the created world to compare and contrast, but God cannot be compared or contrasted with anything. God is incomparable. Anything I can think of, or imagine can't be God. Anything I attribute to God is by definition no inherent part of God at all. Therefore, God can only be revealed by God himself.
     
  7. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    I certainly agree with you concerning the problem of the word, Christian, and how people use it. Long ago I became very cautious in how I use it because people mean different things by it or have no real idea what they mean when they use it.

    I don't understand what you mean by the above words. You refer to post #81 which was posted by Shnarkle, not by me. I cannot correct you or explain my own stand with a correct quotation of mine. I am certainly at some point on this forum I have posted something about parables...but...???
     
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  8. 4Jesus

    4Jesus Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry, I wrote that last reply to you wrong. Those were shnarkle's words, not mine.

    In this thread: Christianity's love of the world will be its downfall, in post #81, I had asked him the question "Are you a Christian?"

    Shnarkle replied with the answer: "The term has come to be so closely associated with hypocrisy that it can have no other meaning. I know of no one who holds the title who follows in Christ's footsteps. No, I am not a Christian, and never will be. It is a pointless label. The only thing it is good for is in rejecting those who use it. Whenever someone points out that they're a Christian, I run the other way. Christians never answer a direct question. Case in point: you. Christians fabricate nonsense out of whole cloth. Again, you provide a prime example with your own private definition of a parable."

    He stated he'll never be a Christian, and he only rejects those who use it. He also falsely believes that "Christian" is a title. The hypocricy is that he stated he runs the other way whenever someone points out that they're a Christian, except in this instance, on a Christian forum...heh.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2019
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  9. Harvest 1874

    Harvest 1874 Well-Known Member

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  10. shnarkle

    shnarkle Well-Known Member

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  11. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for your clarification. We are essentially in agreement here.
     
  12. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    You have started off with FALSE PREMISES therefore you can also expect your conclusions to be false.

    Now why don't you simply stick to Bible truth and ignore all the philosophical jargon (which is meaningless)?

    1. God is NOT a hypothesis but the ULTIMATE REALITY.
    2. God has fully revealed Himself to us in the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ.
    3. Those who have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and been saved can verify the reality of His existence and His salvation.
    4. Monotheism means that there is only one true God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Mt 28:19).

    ROMANS 1

    18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
    19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
    20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
    21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
    22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
    23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
    24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
    25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
    26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
    27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
    28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
    29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
    30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
    31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
    32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

     
  13. prism

    prism Blood-Soaked

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    And so God has revealed Himself in the Person of Jesus Christ...

    (Col 2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    (Heb 1:3a) Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, ...
     
  14. shnarkle

    shnarkle Well-Known Member

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    You're conflating Who God is with what is presented to the world; the person of Christ. Paul clarifies what you're conflating in 1 Corinthians 8:6 by pointing out that God, the father is the origin of all that is created while Christ, the son is the means by which everything is created. The origin can never be the means without violating the law of non-contradiction.

    What dwells within, is not what it dwells within.
     
  15. prism

    prism Blood-Soaked

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    If you don't like a conflation, I'll give you just one verse reference like you gave me...

    John 10:30 (KJV) I and my Father are one.
     
  16. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    It should be quite obvious to others that you should not even be discussing this subject.
     
  17. shnarkle

    shnarkle Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, that's also a good one which distinguishes between the son and the father. People still tend to conflate the two in their minds. It's ironic how this happens which is because they've basically been brainwashed to believe what simply isn't there to begin with. What you've posted is quite simply interpreted to mean something completely different. For example notice that it is a compound subject with a plural verb. Even though this is irrefutable, people will tend to hear something like this in their minds: "I am one with my father" See the difference?

    Notice also that I'm not only addressing what you're posting and showing that there is no contradiction in my position, but simultaneously pointing out that you are presenting scripture that you believe contradicts scripture. You've got a serious problem if you can't reconcile the two passages.
     
  18. prism

    prism Blood-Soaked

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    Keep trying...

    Isaiah 44:6 (KJV) Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

    Revelation 1:8 (KJV)
    I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

    You can't have two 'firsts and lasts' and you can only have one God!
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2019
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  19. shnarkle

    shnarkle Well-Known Member

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    Yep, the origin of existence logically cannot exist. QED. There it is in black and white, and you still don't see it. Look at it again. It clearly states, "there is no God".

    Again, this is right in line with what I've already posted. This is Christ. Christ is the beginning and the end.

    Strawman argument. I never claimed there were two firsts and lasts, nor have I ever posted that there are more than one God.

    Oh, and by the way, when I not only address what you've posted, but refute it, to then post some other passage that you believe contradicts the scripture you've just posted doesn't refute what I've posted. It contradicts your own argument.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2019
  20. prism

    prism Blood-Soaked

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    I guess I am wasting my time here. You cut off a sentence to prove your point??? The fuller phrase is 'besides me, there is no God'.
    A difference between night and day...black and white. LOL
     
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