Have you no ability to reason/think? What do you think "FAITHFUL JEWS" means? These 144,000 of Old are JEWS WHO BELIEVED MESSIAH WOULD COME...hench that makes them Messianic believers who were Jews. Messianic means Messiah! It doesn't matter what ethnic nation one is from, IN CHRIST there is neither Jew nor Gentile!
The 144,000 before God at the end.
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Have you no ability to reason/think? What do you think "FAITHFUL JEWS" means? These 144,000 of Old are JEWS WHO BELIEVED MESSIAH WOULD COME...hench that makes them Messianic believers who were Jews. Messianic means Messiah! It doesn't matter what ethnic nation one is from, IN CHRIST there is neither Jew nor Gentile!
EXACTLY! Lifted up above the earth on the water that was still on the earth! It does not say it (ark & water) was lifted up OFF the earth!
Genesis 7:18-23 (KJV) And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters. And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered. And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
Genesis 7:24 (KJV) And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.
Indeed, we are greatly indebted to Scripture, especially when understood in CONTEXT!
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The 144,000 are OT Israelites. Revelation 7:4
OT Israelites were both Jews and Gentiles. Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22
God is not a racist.
Nor can He be contorted into one.
Davy
Well-Known Member
The KJV has it this way, so it is not that specific...
Mark 13:1
13 And as He went out of the temple, one of His disciples saith unto him, "Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!"
KJV
Matt 24:1
24 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and His disciples came to him for to shew Him the buildings of the temple.
KJV
Are you suggesting then, that what Jesus said about those stones is not part of the Signs of the very end He gave His disciples (and us)?
It just is what it is, RWB. You're right. And you can reason all you want, but for those bought into this "typology," no amount of reason is going to change their minds. You might recall with me the words of those... poets, I guess... Simon and Garfunkel, from The Boxer in 1968: "Still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest..." So it goes. And you know what? It's okay. It's okay. None of this discussion is salvific. The only thing that's ever been and ever will be salvific ~ the only thing ~ is believing in Christ Jesus and resting in Him alone for your salvation. That's it.
By the way, as I'm sure you will agree, Noah's ark is the type/shadow of Christ in the Genesis 6 and 7 narrative. It is Christ Himself Who keeps us safe and carries us through the flood that is this life of tribulation, just as the ark did Noah and his family and the animals on board. There is no removal from the flood, but rather ~ to be sure ~ a provision and protection and preservation through it. In the greater sense, for us, He is with us always, just as He said He would be, even in the midst of the storms (again, tribulation) raging around us, keeping us safe, and ultimately He will deliver us... just as he did his disciples in the storm in Luke 8:22-25, Matthew 8:23-27, Mark 4:36-41, and John 6:16-21... He was with them and delivered them safely to the other side. For us, of course, that "other side" is glory.
The LORD is (our) shepherd; (we) shall not want.
He makes (us) lie down in green pastures.
He leads (us) beside still waters.
He restores (our) soul(s).
He leads (us) in paths of righteousness for His name’s sake.
Even though (we) walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
(We) will fear no evil, for You are with (us); Your rod and Your staff, they comfort (us).
You prepare a table before (us) in the presence of (our) enemies;
You anoint (our) head(s) with oil; (our) cup overflows.
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow (us) all the days of (our lives),
And (we) shall dwell in the house of the LORD forever.
This is the Gospel.
Grace and peace to you (and all).
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Davy
Well-Known Member
I realize those on the seminary doctrines called Preterism and Historicism like to use that "Age" translation instead of 'world', when the same Greek word is used for both (from the Textus Receptus). See NT:165.
What I see with their preferred usage of "Age" is in trying to place the Signs Jesus gave His disciples then to the 70 A.D. destruction by the Romans under Titus, and I'm not just referring to His prophecy of not one stone atop another. The Signs Jesus was giving is for the end of this world, not 70 A.D., although the 70 A.D. destruction of the temple and Jerusalem does apply as a 'dual' prophecy, because as of today, the Western Wall of the old temple complex of huge stones is still standing in Jerusalem, which is a sign in itself.
There's some prophecies in God's Word that operate in a 'dual' sense, like the first time only certain parameters of the prophecy are fulfilled. Then with the final fulfillment all the parameters are fulfilled. For example, the "abomination of desolation" event Lord Jesus quoted from the Book of Daniel. Many see Antiochus IV having fulfilled that per the "vile person" of Daniel 11, but Antiochus Epiphanes around 165 B.C. came to power in Jerusalem with an army, NOT using peace and flatteries like the final "vile person" is to do per that Daniel 11 prophecy. Furthermore, when Jesus quoted about that "abomination of desolation" idol event, Antiochus had already been dead for about 200 years. So Lord Jesus was definitely pointing to another.
When Lord Jesus returns, there will be a 3rd Jewish temple standing there (probably near to the Dome of the Rock maybe?). That is what I believe will be destroyed on the day of His coming, which the Rev.11:13 destruction events of a 10th of the city of Jerusalem is pointing to.
Why must there be a 3rd temple built by the unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem for the end? Because Christ's prophecy about the "abomination of desolation" idol requires it for the end.
Davy
Well-Known Member
I agree there's some different information given in the Luke 21 version, which does have a verse pointing definitely to the 70 A.D. destruction and Diaspora. But the idea of 'desolation' in verse 20 is not about the "abomination of desolation" IDOL event which will happen earlier during the time of 'great tribulation' before the last day destruction of those armies.
Luke 21:24
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
KJV
The part in red above, I interpret that to be about the 70 A.D. destruction and Diaspora. But the part in orange is a link to the Rev.11:1-2 verses about a 3rd temple in Jerusalem for the end, and the Gentiles treading the city for 42 months, which is "great tribulation" timing, the 1260 days of God's "two witnesses" prophesying against the beast. That Luke 21:24 verse to me points directly to the dual prophetic fulfillment idea.
We can't really stop at that 24th verse either, because that would be to not finish the flow of what Lord Jesus revealed in that Luke 21 section of verses. And I realize that Preterism and Historicists often try to do that stop.
Luke 21:20-28
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
That compassing Jerusalem with Satan's armies will happen on the last day of this world.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
That "days of vengeance" points to the day of Christ's 2nd coming, the last day, per the Isaiah 61:1-2 Scripture, i.e., the part in Isaiah which Jesus did not read at the start of His Ministry per Luke 4.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
That above verse many connect with the 70 A.D. destruction along with the next verse.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
That part above in bold is actually a link to the Rev.11:1-2 verses like I said before, which is about the future "great tribulation" timing, the 6th trumpet - 2nd Woe period.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Those above signs are "great tribulation" timing signs about the end of this world, especially with the 6th Seal of Rev.6, not 70 A.D.
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Same timing of the 6th Seal part about the stars falling like "untimely figs".
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
KJV
Then the final Sign, with Jesus' coming and gathering of His Church.
Going to add this about "typology." One of my favorite verses in the Bible ~ because it shows us several different things ~ is Hebrews 1:1-4, and really more specifically verses 1 and 2:
"Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs."
What I want to point out here is this:
We read that "long ago... God spoke to our fathers by the prophets..." Clearly, the writer of Hebrews is speaking of Old Testament times ~ before the advent of Jesus, His birth to Mary ~ the entire Old Testament. In those days, God spoke "at many times and in many ways," says the writer, contrasting this with how God has spoken to us "in these last days" ~ which is to say since Jesus's first coming, His life, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension ~ which is by His Son... Jesus, of course. The point is that the types and shadows contained in the Old Testament ~ all of it, from Moses to the Prophets; Jesus Himself said so, specifically in John 5:46 ~ all point to Christ. Sometimes they are inanimate objects (the ark, the manna, the law), sometimes they are animals (the ram in the thicket that the Lord provided for Abram to sacrifice instead of his son Isaac, the lamb without blemish sacrificed in Leviticus), sometimes they are people (Joseph, Moses, David), and sometimes they are not even seen but merely implied (the blood on the doorposts which protected the Israelites' sons in the Passover in Exodus). Ergo, "at many times and in many ways." There is no additional typology ~ and surely not with regard to eschatology, other than the absolute certainty that Jesus will certainly return and we shall all be finally and completely redeemed and saved. Specific to Moses's account of Noah in Genesis 6 through 9, the type/shadow of Jesus is the ark itself. And no further explanation is needed on that beyond what I said immediately above in my previous response to you (post 1,745). There is no "rapture typology."
Grace and peace to you!
Davy
Well-Known Member
Allow me...
After the Rev.12:7-13 events at the end, when Satan and his angels are kicked out of Heaven, and must come to earth (in our dimension), the next event shown is the latter time, a "time, times, and half a time" from the dividing of the symbolic "one week" of Daniel 9:27. That means "great tribulation" time. And that is about the timing when Michael stands up and then comes a time of trouble that never was since there was a nation, per Dan.12:1.
The "abomination of desolation" IDOL is to be placed in the new temple by the final Antichrist in the middle of the Daniel 9:27 "one week" (7 years). That is what kicks off the time of "great tribulation" per Lord Jesus in Matthew 24 and Mark 13.
The 'flood' idea originates from God speaking of sending upon the rebellious of His people "the Assyrian". In some Scriptures of the Old Testament prophets, God uses "the Assyrian" as a 'type' for Satan himself. Obvious cases of that are Isaiah 30:31-33 and Ezekiel 31 (i.e., the flesh king of Assyria never was in God's Garden of Eden).
Isa 8:6-8
6 Forasmuch as this people refuseth the waters of Shiloah that go softly, and rejoice in Rezin and Remaliah's son;
7 Now therefore, behold, the Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, even the king of Assyria, and all his glory: and he shall come up over all his channels, and go over all his banks:
8 And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel.
KJV
The above example shows how God used the idea of "the Assyrian" coming in like a flood of waters.
But the following example is pointing to the very end of this world with the Antichrist coming in "like a flood". The Standard The LORD will lift up against that Antichrist at the end of this world will of course be The Lord Jesus Christ...
Isa 59:18-20
18 According to their deeds, accordingly He will repay, fury to His adversaries, recompence to His enemies; to the islands He will repay recompence.
19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and His glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.
20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
KJV
Thus the Rev.12:13-17 verses are about "great tribulation" time of 1260 days, when the false-Messiah will setup the "image of the beast" idol in a new temple in Jerusalem, and demand that all bow or be killed (Rev.13:11 forward). The "water as a flood" comes out the Antichrist's "mouth", which means LIES causing DECEPTION. That is what his locust army of Rev.9 are also to do their work with, with their power actually being in their 'mouths'. That is the main method of attack for the coming tribulation, LIES that cause DECEPTION with the result being a great falling away by many who will accept that Antichrist in place of Lord Jesus Christ.
That is what Paul's "strong delusion" of 2 Thess.2 will be about, being deceived by the coming false-Messiah in thinking he is our Lord Jesus Christ having come. The waters as a flood are designed to cause that deception. And Lord Jesus' very first warning about the end was to not allow any man to deceive us.
Let's start here. According to Rev 12 the war in heaven between Michael and his angles and Satan and his angels took place when Christ was born. Satan and his angels (demonic hosts) were cast out of heaven and to the earth then. But you say Satan and his angels are not now kicked out of heaven to the earth and won't be until this time you believe to be "time, times and half a time". Then you apply this symbolic time to "one week" of Dan 9:27Finally, you assume without verification from Scripture that Dan 12:1 when Michael stands up for his people is yet to happen.
I'll say to you what I've said to others, your opinions mean nothing unless they can be supported by Scripture. Unless you bring proof from Scripture for your opinions, your opinions remain guess work, imagination, assumption etc. without biblical authority.
Well, allow me...
And I think at least much of what I'm going to say here you are implying in your question:Having failed to destroy Christ (Revelation 12:4-5), the Dragon tries to destroy the people of Christ. He uses his mouth, representing his deceit (Revelation 12:15, 9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10). When deceit fails, he tries persecuting power (Revelation 12:17-13:10). The woman flies to the desert, an image that speaks of the powerful and supernatural care of God active on behalf of his people. His people experience powerful protection even in circumstances where it may seem impossible that they would be delivered. “For nothing is impossible with God” (Luke 1:37). By speaking of the desert and the period of three and a half years, God looks after the woman for 1260 days (Revelation 12:6), the same period of 42 months or three and a half years mentioned in Revelation 11:2-3, Revelation 12:14, and Revelation 13:5. The 1260 days is the entire interadvent period. It begins immediately after Christ’s ascension. It continues throughout the period of Satanic assaults on the church, that is, the whole period until the Second Coming. During the entire period, God protects the church from satanic attacks. But the vision also applies with particular force to times of intense distress that may come when the church suffers violent attack. The protection comes in the desert. Israel after the exodus from Egypt wandered in the desert. This desert gave them relief from the idolatry and oppression of Egypt. But it was also a time of testing, and they were tempted (not by God, of course, Who does not tempt) to lose faith and rebel. They were to look forward to rest and satisfaction in the promised land. Similarly, the church looks forward to final rest in the new heavens and the new earth. But for now she is subject to testing on earth. Regarding a flood in Revelation 12, there is no flood, but the threat of one, but the earth comes to the help of the woman... the earth "open(s) its mouth and swallow(s) the river ~ actually lies, deception ~ that the dragon had poured from his mouth. The very structure of God’s created world restricts and frustrates Satan’s plans. Since Satan cannot wipe out the church as a whole through his deceit, he tries another plan: to war against the rest of her offspring. 13:1-18 exposes the character of this war, indicating that it involves raising up earthly instruments of persecution.
Grace and peace to all.
There is no idol in Christ's prophecy in Matthew 24:15. The abomination of desolation is identified in the synoptic verse Luke 21:20 as the Roman armies, and corroborated in Daniel 9:26-27, to which Christ refers also in Matthew 24:15. Thus there is three-way corroboration between Daniel 9:26-27, Matthew 24:15, and Luke 21:20.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
I agree with most of that. I agree that the 1260 days (42 months, time, times and half a time) represents the interadvent period, but disagree slightly in that I see the 1260 days as leading up to the beginning of Satan's little season. The reason I say that is because there is a symbolic 3.5 day time period which occurs after the 1,260 days ends.Well, allow me...
Having failed to destroy Christ (Revelation 12:4-5), the Dragon tries to destroy the people of Christ. He uses his mouth, representing his deceit (Revelation 12:15, 9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10). When deceit fails, he tries persecuting power (Revelation 12:17-13:10). The woman flies to the desert, an image that speaks of the powerful and supernatural care of God active on behalf of his people. His people experience powerful protection even in circumstances where it may seem impossible that they would be delivered. “For nothing is impossible with God” (Luke 1:37). By speaking of the desert and the period of three and a half years, God looks after the woman for 1260 days (Revelation 12:6), the same period of 42 months or three and a half years mentioned in Revelation 11:2-3, Revelation 12:14, and Revelation 13:5. The 1260 days is the entire interadvent period. It begins immediately after Christ’s ascension. It continues throughout the period of Satanic assaults on the church, that is, the whole period until the Second Coming. During the entire period, God protects the church from satanic attacks. But the vision also applies with particular force to times of intense distress that may come when the church suffers violent attack. The protection comes in the desert. Israel after the exodus from Egypt wandered in the desert. This desert gave them relief from the idolatry and oppression of Egypt. But it was also a time of testing, and they were tempted (not by God, of course, Who does not tempt) to lose faith and rebel. They were to look forward to rest and satisfaction in the promised land. Similarly, the church looks forward to final rest in the new heavens and the new earth. But for now she is subject to testing on earth. Regarding a flood in Revelation 12, there is no flood, but the threat of one, but the earth comes to the help of the woman... the earth "open(s) its mouth and swallow(s) the river ~ actually lies, deception ~ that the dragon had poured from his mouth. The very structure of God’s created world restricts and frustrates Satan’s plans. Since Satan cannot wipe out the church as a whole through his deceit, he tries another plan: to war against the rest of her offspring. 13:1-18 exposes the character of this war, indicating that it involves raising up earthly instruments of persecution.
Grace and peace to all.
Revelation 11:3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”...7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. 8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified. 9 For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. 10 The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.
11 But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.
This is all symbolic and I'm not going to go into how I interpret all of this here, but the point is that it does reference a time period as occurring after the 1,260 days ends, which is described as "three and a half days". I believe Jesus returns at the end of that symbolic three and a half days.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Exactly. I just cringe when I see people deny that Luke 21:20-24a is a parallel passage to Matthew 24:15-21. There is just no basis for believing that. It's not as if Jesus said "Let those in Judea flee to the mountains" and "How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!" twice during the Olivet Discourse. Yet, that is what some believe.
Davy
Well-Known Member
There's actually 2 myths pushed by men's doctrines of when they think that Rev.12 war in Heaven took place. One is the idea you suggest, and the other one is really far out, with saying that happened at Satan's original rebellion.
Let's look at no.1, what you suggested:
John 14:30
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.
KJV
John 12:31
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
KJV
Those Scriptures above are considered to be that Satan was cast out at Christ's crucifixion. And we know per Hebrews 2:14 and 1 John 3:8 Lord Jesus was manifested for this purpose, to defeat death and destroy the works of the devil.
So, has 'death' already been defeated for us today? Spiritually yes, through Christ's Blood shed on His cross. But does death still reign over our flesh bodies today? Yes. And will even continue into Christ's future Millennium reign with those still subject to the "second death" of the casting into the "lake of fire" at the end of it. Then death will literally... be no more after it also is then cast into that "lake of fire" after the "thousand years".
And what about that "judgment of this world"? And I mean a literal judgment like will happen when Lord Jesus returns and takes over reign of all nations. That has yet to happen literally also. Back in The Old Testament Scripture God already showed that Satan and his angels were already judged and sentenced to perish in the "lake of fire" (Isaiah 30:30-33). Lord Jesus proclaimed that also earlier in His Ministry (Matt.25:41). So how can what Lord Jesus said in John 12:31, just prior to His being crucified, be the time when Satan was first judged and sentenced to perish?
The Rev.12:6-17 Scripture explains a time way after Satan's original rebellion in the old world.
Rev 12:6-17
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
The later Rev.12:14 verse declares another period like the above, a "time, times, and half a time", which is the same number of days as that 1260 above. What era does that suggest right off the bat? Tribulation time at the end, the Daniel 9:27 symbolic "one week" of 7 years divided in two parts. (And I'm aware of the false idea some have with trying to make that 1260 days above into years. No, it is given in days above, with no instruction to treat it as years. That days for years idea used here by some is only to get one off track of what The LORD is revealing here.)
That above Rev.12:6 period of 1260 days represents the 1st half of Daniel's symbolic "one week".
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
That war is what the Daniel 12:1 idea of Michael 'standing up' is about, and then the time of trouble begins (points to the time of "great tribulation" at the end). Apostle Paul also hinted at this in 2 Thess.2 when he spoke of the one that 'withholdeth', which is about the Archangel Michael per the end of Daniel 10 (a Chapter about a Heavenly order of events). That was definitely not... about the time of Christ's crucifixion.
So already, Rev.12 has given us 2 pointers about this casting out being for the end of this world.
That part above in 'red' is especially important, and requires an understanding of the two separate dimensions of existence written of in God's Word. Apostle Paul in 1 Cor.15 labeled the Heavenly dimension about those with the "image of the heavenly", and then those alive on earth in the flesh as those with the "image of the earthy". Then all throughout God's written Word we are shown examples of the difference between God's Abode of Heaven and this earthly world we live in. All that needs to be understood in order to grasp that part above in 'red'.
That idea of Satan's and his angel's place no more found in Heaven when that happens is about Satan and his angels, literally, being cast OUT of that Heavenly dimension. Satan's abode of the pit, or haides, or hell, is also in the Heavenly dimension, but in a place of separation. Hell is not in the center of this earth, for that would mean in this earthly dimension.
So when Satan and his angels are cast out of that Heavenly dimension, what other place is there for him to go? This earthly dimension only, and that means literally, in plain sight, and not hiding in the Heavenly dimension with spiritually possessing a flesh Antichrist.
We know even since the time of Job, that Satan has had the ability to walk up and down the earth, but that's about his still being in that Heavenly dimension to do that. Same with Satan's attempt to influence Apostle Peter, and Jesus commanded Satan to get behind Him, Satan was doing that influence behind the veil, in the Heavenly dimension. This casting out event will be different, because we will actually see him on earth in our dimension. This is what Paul's "strong delusion" is about that God is sending the world at the end.
This means Satan is coming here when the above happens, into our earthly dimension, and we will see him as a beautiful angel, working the great signs and wonders that Lord Jesus warned us about. And let us not forget, that God also created the angels with the image of 'man', after His Own Image likeness in Heaven. This is why the sodomites in Genesis 19 saw those two angels as 'men'.
(Cont...)
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Davy
Well-Known Member
(Cont...)
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."
As of right now, Satan is still in the Heavenly dimension, and still with the ability to appear before God's throne to accuse us. When he is cast out in the near future, he will no longer be able to do that.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
That above verse is definitely a tribulation end of the world type of verse pointer. It is linked to the time of the 5th SEAL of Rev.6. That is about the saints Jesus warned for the end that will be delivered up to give a Testimony for Him against the beast per Mark 13. It is "two witnesses" timing of Rev.11. Now that and the previous verse 10 definitely destroys any idea that this casting out happened back at Satan's original rebellion.
It also... places this past... the day of Christ's crucifixion, because The Gospel Salvation did not go into effect until after Christ's crucifixion and resurrection.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
My understanding is that "short time" is about the very end, the time of "great tribulation". That is the short time Satan will have to try and deceive this present world by the miracles he will do on earth in plain sight.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Many try to point only to the Jews with the above verse. They don't study their Old Testament history much, which reveals that the northern ten tribe kingdom was scattered first by God, and were actually the majority of Israelites, and still are today. Many of the leaders of Judaism deny this, thinking all the ten tribes have either been lost, or joined with Judah, which is definitely not true. The name Jew was used by the southern kingdom of Judah, not the ten tribes (per the Jewish historian Josephus).
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
There is the 2nd half of Daniel's symbolic "one week". That is Rev.11 timing, still the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period. Jesus returns on the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe per that Rev.11 chapter.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
The LORD is using a symbolic reference to the time of the ark upon the flood of Noah's day. He linked the flood with what comes out of the serpent's MOUTH (i.e., LIES to cause deception). Noah's ark was upon the 'height' of the flood waters for 150 days, as written. Per old Hebrew reckoning, 150 days equals "five months". That suggests the shortened time of the coming tribulation. Rev.9 about the time of the 'stinging' agrees, which this is yet another pointer to the very end of this world with the coming "great tribulation".
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
KJV
Can't say those only mean Israel, simply because those who have the "testimony of Jesus Christ" means Christ's Church.
These events of Satan going after the saints is also written prophecy in Daniel 8 about the "little horn" (Antichrist).
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."
As of right now, Satan is still in the Heavenly dimension, and still with the ability to appear before God's throne to accuse us. When he is cast out in the near future, he will no longer be able to do that.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
That above verse is definitely a tribulation end of the world type of verse pointer. It is linked to the time of the 5th SEAL of Rev.6. That is about the saints Jesus warned for the end that will be delivered up to give a Testimony for Him against the beast per Mark 13. It is "two witnesses" timing of Rev.11. Now that and the previous verse 10 definitely destroys any idea that this casting out happened back at Satan's original rebellion.
It also... places this past... the day of Christ's crucifixion, because The Gospel Salvation did not go into effect until after Christ's crucifixion and resurrection.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
My understanding is that "short time" is about the very end, the time of "great tribulation". That is the short time Satan will have to try and deceive this present world by the miracles he will do on earth in plain sight.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Many try to point only to the Jews with the above verse. They don't study their Old Testament history much, which reveals that the northern ten tribe kingdom was scattered first by God, and were actually the majority of Israelites, and still are today. Many of the leaders of Judaism deny this, thinking all the ten tribes have either been lost, or joined with Judah, which is definitely not true. The name Jew was used by the southern kingdom of Judah, not the ten tribes (per the Jewish historian Josephus).
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
There is the 2nd half of Daniel's symbolic "one week". That is Rev.11 timing, still the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period. Jesus returns on the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe per that Rev.11 chapter.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
The LORD is using a symbolic reference to the time of the ark upon the flood of Noah's day. He linked the flood with what comes out of the serpent's MOUTH (i.e., LIES to cause deception). Noah's ark was upon the 'height' of the flood waters for 150 days, as written. Per old Hebrew reckoning, 150 days equals "five months". That suggests the shortened time of the coming tribulation. Rev.9 about the time of the 'stinging' agrees, which this is yet another pointer to the very end of this world with the coming "great tribulation".
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
KJV
Can't say those only mean Israel, simply because those who have the "testimony of Jesus Christ" means Christ's Church.
These events of Satan going after the saints is also written prophecy in Daniel 8 about the "little horn" (Antichrist).
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Timtofly
Well-Known Member
It was your interpretation we are talking about. So you need Josephus more than the Word of God.
Josephus is your final authority.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
So then in 2 Peter 3:10, the Holy Spirit is what consumes the works of the earth, not the baptism of fire by Jesus? Jesus did not baptize by fire in the first century. That is still to be fulfilled. Peter states the works will be destroyed, not the people.
Jesus Himself will be preaching the Gospel on the earth per Matthew 13. That is the baptism of fire, John the Baptist claimed would happen that is yet to happen.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
That is not what John claims in the book of Revelation. This happens after the 6th Seal is opened. Was the 6th Seal opened during the Babylonian captivity? Was the birth of Jesus the opening of the 7th Seal? Were there already Saints in heaven prior to the Cross? A multitude that could not be numbered?
The book of Revelation is about the Second Coming harvest, not a harvest that took place before Jesus was born.
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