The 144,000 before God at the end.

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covenantee

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Again, not interested in the commentary. Where is YOUR OWN Scriptural refutation? If your best defense is to quote a man's opinion without actually refuting my post directly with your scripture knowledge, then perhaps you're not a Bible student after all.
Albert Barnes doesn't concur.

"There shall not be left here one stone upon another - At the time this was spoken, no event was more improbable than this. The temple was vast, rich, splendid. It was the pride of the nation, and the nation was at peace. Yet in the short space of 40 years all this was accomplished exactly. Jerusalem was taken by the Roman armies, under the command of Titus, 70 a.d. The account of the siege and destruction of the city is left us by Josephus, a historian of undoubted veracity and singular fidelity. He was a Jewish priest. In the wars of which he gives an account, he fell into the hands of the Romans, and remained with them during the siege and destruction of the city. Being a Jew, he would of course say nothing designed to confirm the prophecies of Jesus Christ; yet his whole history appears almost like a running commentary on these predictions respecting the destruction of the temple. The following particulars are given on his authority:
After the city was taken, Josephus says that Titus "gave orders that they should now "demolish the whole city and temple," except three towers, which he reserved standing. But for the rest of the wall, it was laid so completely even with the ground by those who "dug it up from the foundation," that there was nothing left to make those believe who came hither that it had ever been inhabited." Maimonides, a Jewish writer, has also recorded that "Terentius Rufus, an officer in the army of Titus, with a plowshare tore up the foundations of the temple, that the prophecy might be fulfilled, 'Zion shall be plowed as a field,'" Micah 3:12. This was all done by the direction of divine Providence. Titus was desirous of preserving the temple, and frequently sent Josephus to the Jews to induce them to surrender and save the temple and city. But the prediction of the Saviour had gone forth, and, notwithstanding the wish of the Roman general, the temple was to be destroyed. The Jews themselves first set fire to the porticoes of the temple. One of the Roman soldiers, without any command, threw a burning firebrand into the golden window, and soon the temple was in flames. Titus gave orders to extinguish the fire; but, amid the tumult, none of the orders were obeyed. The soldiers pressed to the temple, and neither fear nor entreaties, nor stripes could restrain them. Their hatred of the Jews urged them on to the work of destruction, and thus, says Josephus, the temple was burned against the will of Caesar. - Jewish Wars, b. 6 chapter 4, section 5-7."

Commentary on Matthew 24
 

TribulationSigns

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Albert Barnes doesn't concur.

"There shall not be left here one stone upon another - At the time this was spoken, no event was more improbable than this. The temple was vast, rich, splendid. It was the pride of the nation, and the nation was at peace. Yet in the short space of 40 years all this was accomplished exactly. Jerusalem was taken by the Roman armies, under the command of Titus, 70 a.d. The account of the siege and destruction of the city is left us by Josephus, a historian of undoubted veracity and singular fidelity. He was a Jewish priest. In the wars of which he gives an account, he fell into the hands of the Romans, and remained with them during the siege and destruction of the city. Being a Jew, he would of course say nothing designed to confirm the prophecies of Jesus Christ; yet his whole history appears almost like a running commentary on these predictions respecting the destruction of the temple. The following particulars are given on his authority:
After the city was taken, Josephus says that Titus "gave orders that they should now "demolish the whole city and temple," except three towers, which he reserved standing. But for the rest of the wall, it was laid so completely even with the ground by those who "dug it up from the foundation," that there was nothing left to make those believe who came hither that it had ever been inhabited." Maimonides, a Jewish writer, has also recorded that "Terentius Rufus, an officer in the army of Titus, with a plowshare tore up the foundations of the temple, that the prophecy might be fulfilled, 'Zion shall be plowed as a field,'" Micah 3:12. This was all done by the direction of divine Providence. Titus was desirous of preserving the temple, and frequently sent Josephus to the Jews to induce them to surrender and save the temple and city. But the prediction of the Saviour had gone forth, and, notwithstanding the wish of the Roman general, the temple was to be destroyed. The Jews themselves first set fire to the porticoes of the temple. One of the Roman soldiers, without any command, threw a burning firebrand into the golden window, and soon the temple was in flames. Titus gave orders to extinguish the fire; but, amid the tumult, none of the orders were obeyed. The soldiers pressed to the temple, and neither fear nor entreaties, nor stripes could restrain them. Their hatred of the Jews urged them on to the work of destruction, and thus, says Josephus, the temple was burned against the will of Caesar. - Jewish Wars, b. 6 chapter 4, section 5-7."

Commentary on Matthew 24

Word of God doesn't concur. Enough said. You remained refuted by my posts. Learn to deal with it with Scripture yourself next time. I am done here.
 

covenantee

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Word of God doesn't concur. Enough said. You remained refuted by my posts. Learn to deal with it with Scripture yourself next time. I am done here.
John Gill doesn't concur.

"And Jesus said unto them, see ye not all these things?.... "These great buildings", as in Mark; all these goodly stones, so beautiful and large, and so firmly put together:
verily, I say unto you, there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down; or broken, as Munster's Hebrew Gospel reads it: which prediction had a full and remarkable accomplishment; and which is not only attested by Josephus (y), who relates, that both the city and temple were dug up, and laid level with the ground; but also by other Jewish writers; who tell us (z) that

"on the ninth of Ab, a day prepared for punishments, Turnus Rufus the wicked, , "ploughed up the temple", and all round about it, to fulfil what is said, "Zion shall be ploughed as a field".''

Yes, and to fulfil what Christ here says too, that not one stone should be left upon another, which a plough would not admit of."

Matthew 24 commentary
 

covenantee

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Word of God doesn't concur. Enough said. You remained refuted by my posts. Learn to deal with it with Scripture yourself next time. I am done here.
What to believe?

1. The unanimous collective wisdom and insight of four acclaimed historical apologists and scholars
2. One unsupported modernist private interpretation

Does anyone need a hint? :laughing:
 

rebuilder 454

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It certainly did. That's what sunken boats/ships naturally do. It may take a while, like it did in the case of the Titanic, but they go under the water's surface and descend further and further underwater until they... hit the bottom. Yes. LOL! The Titanic actually broke in half, roughly ~ that darn gravity again ~ and the two pieces finally hit bottom, probably not at the same time, quite some distance apart.


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Right, and thank the Lord for that. :) You have no idea how appropriate it is that you put 'correct' in scare quotes there...
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Nope. Resting in it, actually.


For your sake, sure.


Well, you can if you want, but nobody with any sense would do such a thing... :)

Grace and peace to you, Rebuilder.
You reframe what i say.
Which is lying.
Then laugh hysterically.
I guess you are in here for trolling.
That is in fact trolling.
Snarky style with smilies.
I do not take your mess seriously.
 

rebuilder 454

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It certainly did. That's what sunken boats/ships naturally do. It may take a while, like it did in the case of the Titanic, but they go under the water's surface and descend further and further underwater until they... hit the bottom. Yes. LOL! The Titanic actually broke in half, roughly ~ that darn gravity again ~ and the two pieces finally hit bottom, probably not at the same time, quite some distance apart.


giphy.gif



Right, and thank the Lord for that. :) You have no idea how appropriate it is that you put 'correct' in scare quotes there...
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Nope. Resting in it, actually.


For your sake, sure.


Well, you can if you want, but nobody with any sense would do such a thing... :)

Grace and peace to you, Rebuilder.
You are not very old are you?
 

PinSeeker

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You reframe what i say. Which is lying.
No, I did not, but you can certainly think what you like. It bothers me not.

Then laugh hysterically.... That is in fact trolling....
Well, I did laugh, because some of the things you said in that last post were funny... to me, anyway... :) I do confess to trolling you a bit there at the end, but your comments were very deserving of that. :) And, there was actually some trolling of me coming from you, Rebuilder, which would make what you say here very hypocritical.

Snarky style with smilies. I do not take your mess seriously.
I... don't care. :) I might suggest, though, for you, a sense of humor. Not to intimate that you don't have one, but hey, come on, man. :) It seems to me you take yourself too seriously.

You are not very old are you?
I... wish I were quite a bit younger than I am, for a few reasons. :) But, well, time... is like an ever-rolling stream that bears all its sons away; they fly forgotten, as a dream dies at the opening day...

Grace and peace to you, Rebuilder.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Well, I understand the three and a half days of Revelation 11:2 as the same period as the three and a half years... it repeats on a smaller scale the period of 42 months (Revelation 11:2) also described as 1260 days (Revelation 11:3, 12:6) and the "time, times, and half a time" (three and a half years, Revelation 12:14).
But, the 3.5 days is said to happen after the two witnesses finish their testimony (Rev 11:7-9) which is said to last for 1,260 days (Rev 11:3). So, I don't know how the 1,260 days and the 3.5 days could be seen as being the same. It makes sense to me that the 1,260 days represent the New Testament time period up until Satan's little season (just like the thousand years of Revelation 20) with the 3.5 days representing Satan's little season.

Maybe the real... well, difference of opinion... between us concerns, more generally speaking, the "two witnesses" of Revelation 11... who they are and when they appear. I would just say, for now at least, that Revelation 11:1-14 gives a general visionary representation of the witness of the church and God’s preservation and vindication of that witness. The two witnesses are two lampstands (Revelation 11: 4), which, corresponding with Revelation 1:20, are churches (1:20). There are not two different churches, of course, but only one, Christ's Church. But Scripture requires two witnesses to confirm testimony (Deuteronomy 19:15, Matthew 18:16). So the two witnesses of Revelation 11 may ~ and I believe do ~ symbolize the saints, as the parallel between Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 13:7 suggests.
I agree with this, so that obviously isn't where we differ in our opinions.

I agree in principle concerning "Satan's little season," or, as John puts it in Revelation 20, the "little while" in which Satan is "released," or "loosed." But I see Satan's loosing as still in the inter-advent period leading up to the return of Christ but at the very end, after the fullness of the Gentiles has been brought into Israel and the partial hardening now on Israel removed (as Paul puts it in Romans 11:25-26), God's millennium (Revelation 20:3), the "thousand years," which, "after that" Satan will be "released for a little while"... but still before Christ's return.
I agree that Satan's little season (or whatever you want to call it) happens before Christ's return. I don't really understand what you were intending to say about Romans 11:25-26, though. If you don't see that as speaking of Spiritual Israel rather than the nation of Israel, then we certainly disagree about that.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Great to see you back, bro.
Thank you. I've been posting on a different forum more than I have here lately because I've found the topics there to be more interesting than here recently. You are also on that forum with a different name, but I haven't seen you posting there lately.
 

covenantee

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Thank you. I've been posting on a different forum more than I have here lately because I've found the topics there to be more interesting than here recently. You are also on that forum with a different name, but I haven't seen you posting there lately.
I'd gotten tired of the self-exalted dispen administrators trying to throw their weight around. Sounds like it's improved, so I'll check it out again. Thanks.
 

PinSeeker

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But, the 3.5 days is said to happen after the two witnesses finish their testimony (Rev 11:7-9) which is said to last for 1,260 days (Rev 11:3). So, I don't know how the 1,260 days and the 3.5 days could be seen as being the same. It makes sense to me that the 1,260 days represent the New Testament time period up until Satan's little season (just like the thousand years of Revelation 20) with the 3.5 days representing Satan's little season.
But if the two witnesses, which are lampstands, which then are churches... I think trying to parse things out is an issue or a tendency or practice that we should refrain from (and that's generally true of Revelation); I don't believe John's intent was for the reader to do that on any scale. As I said, it repeats on a smaller scale the period of 42 months (Revelation 11:2) also described as 1260 days (Revelation 11:3, 12:6) and the "time, times, and half a time" (three and a half years, Revelation 12:14). You may remember what I have said about the basic structure of the body of Revelation, the seven cycles of judgment, which are concurrent, not consecutive, and each one progressively focusing more on Christ's return. And I think this to be true on a much smaller scale here in particular. I'll provide the cycles again here, with the second and third cycles bolded ~ they are concurrent, so it is at least somewhat of an answer to the issue you raise here; 11:2-3 are in cycle 2, and 12:6 and 12:14 are in cycle 3, so they can all refer to the same period ~ bolded:

Cycle 1: 7 seals 4:1-8:1
Cycle 2: 7 trumpets 8:2-11:19
Cycle 3: symbolic figures and the harvest 12:1-14:20

Cycle 4: 7 bowls 15:1-16:21
Cycle 5: judgment of Babylon 17:1-19:10
Cycle 6: white horse judgment 19:11-21
Cycle 7: white throne judgment 20:1-21:8
The 8th and culminating act: new Jerusalem 21:9-22:5

I agree with this, so that obviously isn't where we differ in our opinions.
Right on.

I agree that Satan's little season (or whatever you want to call it) happens before Christ's return. I don't really understand what you were intending to say about Romans 11:25-26, though. If you don't see that as speaking of Spiritual Israel rather than the nation of Israel, then we certainly disagree about that.
I don't remember, actually, if I was really addressing you in particular when I referred to Romans 11:25-26. I think we are on the same page, though, as all God's Israel will be saved in the way Paul says there, when the fullness of the Gentiles is brought in and the partial hardening that is now on Israel is removed.

Grace and peace to you, SI.
 

Timtofly

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I, uh... I see. :) Wow.

Grace and peace to you, Timtofly.
Can you prove the sea of glass is on the earth?

"And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind."

"And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God."

So those who got the victory end up on this sea of glass. No one stays on the earth to get a victory. Those who come down on white horses are these people on the sea of glass. They are waiting during this time, just like you claim souls are waiting somewhere for the Second Coming.

The only difference is that the church is in Paradise, and these people are waiting on a sea of glass that is not Paradise. They are not dead. They are very much alive, and getting the victory over what is going on down on the earth somewhere below.

They have physical harps and literally singing with physical lungs. They sing the song of Moses and deliverance. This sea of glass is their "ark of safety". If you want to say it is floating on the clouds, why not? These people return from the sky on horses after the 42 months are up. That is the point of their waiting. So how can you say, they all are still on the earth watching themselves come down from the sky? Why would they not descend with physical white horses?

Unless you think white horses are symbolic of some kind of airplane or air ship?
 

Truthnightmare

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Can you prove the sea of glass is on the earth?

"And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind."

"And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God."

So those who got the victory end up on this sea of glass. No one stays on the earth to get a victory. Those who come down on white horses are these people on the sea of glass. They are waiting during this time, just like you claim souls are waiting somewhere for the Second Coming.

The only difference is that the church is in Paradise, and these people are waiting on a sea of glass that is not Paradise. They are not dead. They are very much alive, and getting the victory over what is going on down on the earth somewhere below.

They have physical harps and literally singing with physical lungs. They sing the song of Moses and deliverance. This sea of glass is their "ark of safety". If you want to say it is floating on the clouds, why not? These people return from the sky on horses after the 42 months are up. That is the point of their waiting. So how can you say, they all are still on the earth watching themselves come down from the sky? Why would they not descend with physical white horses?

Unless you think white horses are symbolic of some kind of airplane or air ship?
Why would they not descend with physical white horses?
Where are they descending from?