The (7th) Abomination That Maketh Desolate

[Timtofly]

What do you mean "stepped in" ?

Do you mean that there is not going to be an Antichrist person ?

One actually has to do the work of Messiah and Prince, not just declare they are someone they are not.

You are putting the 42 months found in Revelation 13 after the 7th Trumpet has already sounded, and trying to place this period prior to the Trumpets themselves.

Jesus and the angels come at the 6th Seal. They are already in place before the first Trumpet even sounds.

The Trumpets cover Jesus sitting on the throne in Jerusalem per Matthrw 25 separating the sheep from the goats. This is the gathering of Israel from out of all nations and transported by the angels.

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:"

The angels will be doing all the gathering. Not the commercial airlines. All the works of man were burned up when the heavens dissolved and the mountains and continents were moved out of their places. Jesus said in Matthew 13 the angels would gather the wheat and tares. They also gather the sheep and the goats. The angels also sealed the 144k in the same manner as the sheep and wheat were sealed and redeemed.

The 144k were sealed between the 6th and 7th Seal. The sheep were gathered during the Trumpets. The wheat gathered during the 7 Thunders. That is the final harvest declared over at the 7th Trumpet.

Only then may Satan rule as the 8th kingdom and set up the image called the beast.

There were false "messiahs" while Jesus was being the real Messiah. Satan has those 10 horns claiming to be "kings" while Jesus is actually do the work of being King.

You seem focused on what humans are doing and not really that much tuned into what Jesus is doing.

 

[ewq1938]

No you have not. Like the pharisees, you refuse to acknowledge that Jesus was the King of Israel that comes in the name of the Lord, riding on a donkey, that Jesus Himself did to fulfill the scripture in John12:12-15.

Like the pharisees, you refuse to acknowledge that Jesus' kingdom was not from here so he was not yet a King here on Earth.

 

[Douggg]

Like the pharisees, you refuse to acknowledge that Jesus' kingdom was not from here so he was not yet a King here on Earth.

Not then yet the king of that kingdom, the kingdom of heaven, given to him in heaven in Daniel 7:13-14. But as the King of Israel, Jesus was already that king, signified by riding into Jerusalem on a donkey .

 

[Douggg]

You are putting the 42 months found in Revelation 13 after the 7th Trumpet has already sounded, and trying to place this period prior to the Trumpets themselves.

Here is where I place the sounding of the 7th angel. The 7th angel announces the third woe, to the inhabiters of the earth.

Look at this chart. The time components of the seven years.

See the AoD set up on day 1185 ? That begins the great tribulation. I don't show the trumpet angels on this chart other than the 7th angel, who sounds right after day the 1263 1/2 days and the earthquake that topples a tenth of Jerusalem.

On my second chart that shows the great tribulation, I show all of the angels sounding. All of the angels sound during the great tribulation of 1335 days.

 

[Douggg]

Jesus and the angels come at the 6th Seal. They are already in place before the first Trumpet even sounds.

No, Jesus descends to earth accompanied by his angels - 45 days after the 6th seal. The 6th seal when the sign of the Son of Man first appears in heaven. The sign will be Jesus, sickle in hand.

Jesus and the angels come at the 6th Seal. They are already in place before the first Trumpet even sounds.

No way. The trumpets begin as soon as the seventh seal is open. The great tribulation begins on day 1185 when the AoD is setup. Then seventh seal is opened. And the trumpet judgments begin. The trumpets judgements begin long before Jesus returns.

It does not even make sense that the trumpet judgements begin after Jesus returns, as you are saying.

 

[Timtofly]

No, Jesus descends to earth accompanied by his angels - 45 days after the 6th seal. The 6th seal when the sign of the Son of Man first appears in heaven. The sign will be Jesus, sickle in hand.

There is no 45 day warning period of the Second Coming. The church will have no warning when the Second Coming happens. It is a thief in the night, twinkling of an eye event. It is not a "45 days to prepare" event.

The 7th Trumpet is not the 3rd woe. The 7th Trumpet declares Jesus is now King over every nation, because the harvest is over.

Revelation 11:1-13 is a parenthetical describing events after the 7th Trumpet. This is God's perspective of the 7th Trumpet. Revelation 13 is the 3rd woe, Satan's perspective of what may happen during the 7th Trumpet.

You have the Seals describing Revelation 13. The Seals are not the 3rd woe. The Seals are the signs of the Second Coming, but no one will realize they are happening or have happened. Some even claim they started in the first century or hundreds of years ago.

Jesus and the angels are on the earth during the Trumpets and Thunders. That is what Jesus expressed in Matthew 13 and in Matthew 25. The final harvest does not start in Revelation 20. The 144k are sealed before the 7th Seal is even opened. The church is removed from the earth in the 5th Seal. The sheep are gathered in the first 6 Trumpets. The wheat is gathered in the Thunders. But not just the redeemed are gathered. The lost are being tossed into the LOF at the same time. By the 7th Trumpet, the majority of the population on earth will be gone, way before the FP and image is brought to life. The winepress gathered in Revelation 14 is the gleaning, the left overs after the final harvest. Revelation 14 is sans the 3rd woe. Armageddon is the same winepress with the 3rd woe. The beheaded are part of the gleanings. But the third woe only happens if God extends time for those beheaded souls to make that choice to be beheaded.

Satan only has 3.5 days after the 7th Trumpet starts to sound. 42 months later at Armageddon, the only humans will be those who show up at Megiddo. The 3.5 days in Revelation 11:11 is the last half of the week of the 7th Trumpet. When the 7th Trumpet stops sounding, that will be the end of Adam's transgression. Once the 7th Trumpet stops sounding, Daniel 9:24 will be the reality on earth. The earth will be regenerated as a new heaven and earth for the Day of the Lord.

If you place the 7th Trumpet it should start with 3.5 days, then a 42 month interruption, then the 3.5 days the 7 vials are poured out. Sunday between 5pm and 6pm is the one hour battle of Armageddon. That is the end of the 7th Trumpet.

Otherwise the 7th Trumpet sounds for 7 days, then the Day of the Lord starts when the 7th Trumpet stops. Satan is bound sometime during that week. Since there is no 42 month extension, no one will be beheaded. Revelation 14 is the removal of the last of Humanity before the 7th Trumpet stops sounding.

That is how Daniel 9:27 should be interpreted in light of the book of Revelation with two 3.5 day periods making up a week of days, not a week of years. This verse is describing the days of the 7th Trumpet. That is if there is a 42 month interruption of Satan's 42 months.

Only when God as the Prince to come, Jesus Christ confirms the Atonement Covenant with the many, those left as the gleanings after the final harvest of Matthew 13 and Matthew 25, will we know if there is even a 42 month period or not.

The final harvest is not after every one is dead. The final harvest is the ending of this physical body. Many get Matthew 24:22 wrong.

"And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

That does not mean spared their physical life. That means redeemed. The logical point Jesus is making is that if the GT does last for 3.5 years while He and the angels are gathering the final harvest, more souls would be tossed into the LOF thus not saved/redeemed. That would mean only thousands were raptured as the church. But if billions are taken away as the church, the GT will be shorter, because there will be less to toss into the LOF. Also a short GT, and the more tossed into the LOF, the less likely any one will be left to behead, so no 42 month extension. Remember that it is for the elect's sake. If all the elect are chosen in the final harvest, the earth would also not have to suffer the Abomination of Desolation, which is not for the elect's sake, but for the will of Satan just because some elect are still alive after the 7th Trumpet is sounded. Not having Satan's 42 months is also shorter time. Extending time past the point time is supposed to end is definitely not making time shorter. So those looking for a full 7 years of judgment are not viewing the end for the elect's sake. They are proclaiming time for the lost to enjoy their last years on earth to the fullest.

 

[MatthewG]

I know you’re heading off to bed, I am too in a couple of hours, so no hurry in responding.

The rest of the dead lived not again not again till the thousand years were finished. That means they come to life when Satan compasses the camp of the saints. I’ve been placing the camp of the saints as Jerusalem and the fire that comes down devouring the camp of the saints, not devouring those who compass the camp of the saints.

Not sure where to begin the study at. Steven is said to be one of the first resurrection, because of the holy spirit having come then in that day. Just wonder what your thoughts on that are. I am not so sure about Satan and the compassing the saints. When talking about the fire that comes down reminds me of the boulders of fire that were coming in to Jerusalem from the Romans. The saints of the 144,000 would have been waiting, and watching and taken when they seen Jesus coming.

In Luke 17:30-31 it says in the day the Son of man is revealed they are to flee. I’ve been thinking that the revealing is when Israel’s blindness in part is removed, or they come to life.

In Luke 9:60 Jesus says let the dead bury their dead, which shows that the word dead <3498> doesn’t necessarily mean physically dead.

Ok, I’m just looking to maybe compare notes on some of this to see how you deal with some of these things.

WIsh I could be of better help but for the past like half a year, I been abusing myself with drugs, and I need to sit down and read and study more again.

Thank you for your questions and as of today I am in recovery, slow process, always hurts to go through.

 

[Earburner]

Well Revelation 6:9-11 shows some martyrs asking how long, do you think this is part of a future tribulation?

Actually, most all Premil believers, won't be able to grasp what the correct understanding of KJV Rev. 6:9-11 is saying. However, those who are of Amil thinking can grasp it.

No one under the OC ever had the permanent indwelling of God's Holy Spirit.
That could NOT take place until the shedding of Christ's blood for the forgiveness and removal of sin.

The best that God could do for them until then, was to have their names written in a "Book of Remembrance" before God. Malachi 3:16.

After the death of Jesus, God did not forget them of Israel who died in faith, and therefore, the Holy Spirit (white robes) was given to each one.

Those saints who were under the altar, are all of Israel of faith, while they lived out their lives under the OC., waiting for the Promised One to come, of which He DID.

There are two OC saints of faith, who are easily recognizable, during the visitation of Jesus in the flesh upon Israel. They were Nathanael (John 1:47) and Simeon (John 2:25-35)

 

[grafted branch]

Steven is said to be one of the first resurrection, because of the holy spirit having come then in that day. Just wonder what your thoughts on that are.

I think you’re referring to after Stephen died he would be the first to be absent from the body and present with the Lord as being considered the first resurrection. My thoughts are that people who died under the old covenant went to Sheol but they were removed from there when Christ arose, so I would consider them part of the first resurrection and not Stephen.

I think the first resurrection in Revelation 20:5 is pointing to both the resurrection of Christ and the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrection of saints (out of Sheol). Also I think the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints are the ones asking the question in Revelation 6:10 of how long till their blood is avenged.

In Acts 7:60 Stephen’s last words are “lay not this sin to their charge”. It seems highly unlikely that Stephen would’ve done a complete 180 turn around and asked how long till his blood was avenged once he died. Putting all this together leads me to believe that Stephen was the first martyr under the new covenant where we forgive each other and don’t expect an eye for an eye type of avenging.

Thank you for your questions and as of today I am in recovery, slow process, always hurts to go through.

I’ll be praying for you, I hope all goes well.

 

[grafted branch]

Actually, most all Premil believers, won't be able to grasp what the correct understanding of KJV Rev. 6:9-11 is saying. However, those who are of Amil thinking can grasp it.

No one under the OC ever had the permanent indwelling of God's Holy Spirit.
That could NOT take place until the shedding of the Christ's blood for the forgiveness and removal of sin.

The best that God could do for them until then, was to have their names written in a "Book of Remembrance" before God. Malachi 3:16.

After the death of Jesus, God did not forget them of Israel who died in faith, and therefore, the Holy Spirit (white robes) was given to each one.

Those saints who were under the altar, are all of Israel of faith, while they lived out their lives under the OC.

Absolutely agree with you on this, we also have to keep in mind that we have the answer to the question of how long till their blood is avenged. If Revelation 6:9-11 is a future event we wouldn’t need to ask how long in the first place because we already know, we have the foreknowledge.

 

[MatthewG]

I think you’re referring to after Stephen died he would be the first to be absent from the body and present with the Lord as being considered the first resurrection. My thoughts are that people who died under the old covenant went to Sheol but they were removed from there when Christ arose, so I would consider them part of the first resurrection and not Stephen.

Okay, yes I remember those who came out of their graves.

I think the first resurrection in Revelation 20:5 is pointing to both the resurrection of Christ and the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrection of saints (out of Sheol). Also I think the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints are the ones asking the question in Revelation 6:10 of how long till their blood is avenged.

Could well be, because they interlink together well, though a lot of the old testament is founded to be commented on as well through Revelation.

In Acts 7:60 Stephen’s last words are “lay not this sin to their charge”. It seems highly unlikely that Stephen would’ve done a complete 180 turn around and asked how long till his blood was avenged once he died. Putting all this together leads me to believe that Stephen was the first martyr under the new covenant where we forgive each other and don’t expect an eye for an eye type of avenging.

That and the end of the age continued to count down for them. It's amazing to see the name ban of Jesus in the writings of Acts.

I’ll be praying for you, I hope all goes well.

Thank you, all the best to you and family.

 

[Douggg]

There is no 45 day warning period of the Second Coming.

The 45 days is not a warning period. It is the period which the kings of the earth gather their armies at Armageddon to prepare to make war on Jesus.

The 7th Trumpet is not the 3rd woe.

13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

The7th angel sounding his trumpet announces what the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth will be.

Revelation 11:1-13 is a parenthetical describing events after the 7th Trumpet. This is God's perspective of the 7th Trumpet. Revelation 13 is the 3rd woe, Satan's perspective of what may happen during the 7th Trumpet.

Not even. Revelation 11 begins as result of John eating the little book, taken from the hand of the mighty angel in Revelation 10:10-13.

Revelation 11:1-2 is the mighty angel giving instruction to John. Revelation 11:3 are words coming back up out of John's bitter stomach, found within the book. Verse 3 is God speaking through John.

In verse 4, John begins to prophesy after digesting the book.

You have the Seals describing Revelation 13. The Seals are not the 3rd woe. The Seals are the signs of the Second Coming, but no one will realize they are happening or have happened. Some even claim they started in the first century or hundreds of years ago.

I have seven seals spanning the 7 years. The seals are not the 3rd woe and I never said they are. The first seal begins with the Antichrist crowned the King of Israel, thought-to-be messiah by the Jews.

Jesus and the angels are on the earth during the Trumpets and Thunders.

no way. Jesus returns at the end of the great tribulation. The trumpets are during the great tribulation.

If you place the 7th Trumpet it should start with 3.5 days, then a 42 month interruption, then the 3.5 days the 7 vials are poured out. Sunday between 5pm and 6pm is the one hour battle of Armageddon. That is the end of the 7th Trumpet.

no, there is not a 42 month interruption. The 7th angel sounds, signaling Michael and his angels to cast Satan and his angels down to earth. From that point, Satan will have but a time/times, half time left. During the time/times/half time , Satan will indwell the AoD statue image of the beast-king.

 

[ewq1938]

Not then yet the king of that kingdom, the kingdom of heaven, given to him in heaven in Daniel 7:13-14. But as the King of Israel, Jesus was already that king, signified by riding into Jerusalem on a donkey .

Joh 6:14 Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.
Joh 6:15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

 

[Earburner]

Joh 6:14 Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.
Joh 6:15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

Yes, they of Israel did recognize Jesus to be "that prophet that should come into the world", but Jesus knew that His kingdom was NOT in the Israel of this world, who was "the daughter of Zion", but rather that His kingdom was from above which is "Heavenly Zion", the mother of us all [who are of faith]. Gal. 4:26

 

[Douggg]

Joh 6:14 Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.
Joh 6:15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

It was not part of God's plan that Jesus be made a king at that time and place because the Daniel 9:25-26 prophecy applies to Daniel's people and Jerusalem.

 

[Timtofly]

Yes, they of Israel did recognize Jesus to be "that prophet that should come into the world", but Jesus knew that His kingdom was NOT in the Israel of this world, who was "the daughter of Zion", but rather that His kingdom was from above which is "Heavenly Zion", the mother of us all [who are of faith]. Gal. 4:26

This point is not what John wrote as the reasoning. The point was they wanted to be fed every day without doing all the work. They were not looking for a king to enslave them. They were looking for a prophet to feed them every day as their spiritual prophet, providing for their physical needs.

Jesus pointed out they did need to enter God's spiritual kingdom even when doing the physical work of providing for the flesh.

"They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work? Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat. Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread."

You are using this exchange to point out an earthly Israel as opposed to a spiritual Israel. But there is no earthly Israel as seperated in your theology. The only Israel was God's blessings on those living on the earth in obedience and faith in God. The Israel that came out of Egypt was the earthly Israel blessed by God. That is the only Israel, and will be again after the Second Coming.

The earthly Israel is the daughter of the heavenly Zion.

 

[Earburner]

The earthly Israel is the daughter of the heavenly Zion.

Yes, that is what I said, BUT....
in her relationship with God, I didn't say what the condition of "earthly Israel" was, since 70 AD:
She "is fallen".

 

[covenantee]

The earthly Israel is the daughter of the heavenly Zion.

Earthly Israel. "Daughters of Zion." Christ speaking.

Matthew 23
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

 

[Timtofly]

Yes, that is what I said, BUT....
in her relationship with God, I didn't say what the condition of "earthly Israel" was, since 70 AD:
She "is fallen".

No, earthly Israel was scattered in 720BC. The remnant was made blind in part at the Cross. 70AD was the judgment on only 3 generations, like the wandering in the wilderness on 3 generations. The Israel that wandered in the wilderness was not the end of Israel, and neither is the blindness in part.

One year does not define Israel any more than the 40 years in the wilderness did.

In Elijah's day we see a remnant of 7,000. 1 Kings 19:18

"Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him."

At the Second Coming there is a remnant of at least 144,000, and at the most a third of those alive on that day.

Jerusalem was never the permanent home for past generations anyway. Jerusalem is only the permanent home for the Israel of the last millennium. Most OT prophecies have scattered Israel gathered from out of the nations, not that they would maintain Jerusalem until the end. That is echoed in the NT as well.

 

[Earburner]

No, earthly Israel was scattered in 720BC. The remnant was made blind in part at the Cross. 70AD was the judgment on only 3 generations, like the wandering in the wilderness on 3 generations. The Israel that wandered in the wilderness was not the end of Israel, and neither is the blindness in part.

One year does not define Israel any more than the 40 years in the wilderness did.

In Elijah's day we see a remnant of 7,000. 1 Kings 19:18

"Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him."

At the Second Coming there is a remnant of at least 144,000, and at the most a third of those alive on that day.

Jerusalem was never the permanent home for past generations anyway. Jerusalem is only the permanent home for the Israel of the last millennium. Most OT prophecies have scattered Israel gathered from out of the nations, not that they would maintain Jerusalem until the end. That is echoed in the NT as well.

Luke 13:34-35
34 0 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
35 Behold, your HOUSE is left unto you DESOLATE [abandoned, alone, void of God]: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see [perceive] me, until the time come when YE [individually] SHALL SAY, Blessed is he [born again Christians] that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Rom. 10:12
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.