the 7th Trump

[The Light]

Obviously they are blown. What is their purpose? You say they are wrath.

Of course.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

That should cover it.

Where in all of scripture are trumpets the wrath of God?

In Revelation 8, 9,10,11

Do you have any OT sources?

Look familiar? It's Revlelation 6 and the one year wrath of God.

Isaiah 34
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the Lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.

7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.

8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Of course.

You still didn't answer my question. What is their purpose.

In Revelation 8, 9,10,11

And you didn't answer this one either. Perhaps you misunderstood. I will explain it.
Where in all of scripture are trumpets the wrath of God? What I am asking is, where else in scripture are trumpets shown to be God's wrath. Is there a case in Genesis? Isaiah? 2 Kings? For it to be the wrath of God, it has to exist somewhere else that proves it.

You quoted Isaiah 34, but nothing is there is about trumpets being wrath. If we were to piece it together, verse 4 is the 6th seal, and vs 5-7 are linked to Isaiah 61:1-3 which event is found in the bowls after Christ reigns at the 7th trumpet (Rev 19:6) at Revelation 19:13 and Rev 19:15. Neither of them are in the trumpets and none of it show that trumpets are wrath on man.

 

[The Light]

If the gathering is from heaven, how do the dead hear his voice only in the tombs/crypts/monuments? John 5:28

The gathering is from heaven and earth. The dead in Christ and the alive Church are already in heaven when the gathering occurs. They are gathered from heaven. And those killed during the Great Tribulation and the alive of the 12 tribes are gathered from the earth. Jacob had two brides. Only those that flee to a place of protection from the nation of Israel and unbelievers are on earth during the wrath of God.

So Christ has 4 more advents? Barley, wheat, first fruits and with armies from heaven. I thought there is only 1 advent left. 1 coming back. One parousia.

The second advent is when all eyes see the coming of the Lord and He sets His feet on the Mount of Olives.

When Jesus comes for the dead and Christ and later for the alive believers that remain, no one sees Him.
When Jesus comes for the 144,000 first fruits I don't know if anyone sees Him.
When Jesus comes for the gathering from heaven and earth, all eyes see Him, but He remains in the clouds and sends His angels.
So the second Advent is at the end of wrath, when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord.

 

[No Pre-TB]

They are gathered from heaven. And those killed during the Great Tribulation and the alive of the 12 tribes are gathered from the earth.

There are not 3 resurrections nor are there 2 harpazos. Unbiblical.

When Jesus comes for the dead and Christ and later for the alive believers that remain, no one sees Him.
When Jesus comes for the 144,000 first fruits I don't know if anyone sees Him.
When Jesus comes for the gathering from heaven and earth, all eyes see Him

There are not 3 more comings. Also, unbiblical and heresy.

There is only 1 time He comes. There is only 1 more advent. Only 1 more manifestation at his parousia. And according to the Bible, his appearing is in flaming fire at the last trumpet, on the last day in his Kingdom when he reigns when he will go forth to destroy those that destroy the Earth. He will not reward anyone until he sits on his glorious throne as King. He will not leave Heaven till the restoration of all things.

You want him to leave Heaven and pick us up, then return. Then leave heaven a second time and a third time. That is not scriptural.

Acts 3:21
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Restitution is
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ok-at-as'-tas-is)
Definition: restoration

Have you never read Rev 11:18?

And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

His wrath finally comes now...at the time he reigns. And notice the next part, reward the dead and to judge them as we all go before the bema seat and at the end he finally goes forth to destroy the wicked. Why? Because he wasnt doing that in the trumpets. If you put this verse in Rev 4, every single Pre-Tbber would say AH Ha! Proof Text! (They love that wordage). But you move the same wording to Rev 11:18 and they want to deny it.

What reward is given to the dead:
1. Prophets
2. all the saints
3. and every other single person that fears Him. That is everyone.

Here's the answer: Rev 22:12
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Let'see. He's reigning now and his reward is with him when he comes. Kinda sounds like 2 Tim 4:1
I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of His appearing and His kingdom:

Huh, Paul was telling us about when he'd receive his crown of immortality and he says it's at his appearing and and his Kingdom. But he also says he will judge the living and the dead when that happens. Isnt that what I just posted from Rev 11:18....he judged the dead and rewarded them...and it happened at the last trumpet....

I realize you look at my words and think, here is another person that has no idea. But your wall of defense is shading you from the truth. This isnt an I win argument. Im not trying to 1-Up you. I wish you were not so hardly bound with pre-TB because it really shields people from seeing anything else that's truthful. I know some people think they wont betray it because they want to stay true to the word. But the Pastor's today preaching this are not understanding eschatology. It is not like any other NT book yet they treat it that way. Some of the best, most loved Pastor's, great men of faith, men I believe will be with Christ when he returns. They are wrong on Revelation. Most of them use other Pre-Tb writer's cliff notes. They don't read other writings and see why people believe this way (Pre-Wrath, Post Trib etc). They are stuck in 1 format and my heart goes out to them.

 

[David in NJ]

The gathering is from heaven and earth. The dead in Christ and the alive Church are already in heaven when the gathering occurs. They are gathered from heaven. And those killed during the Great Tribulation and the alive of the 12 tribes are gathered from the earth. Jacob had two brides. Only those that flee to a place of protection from the nation of Israel and unbelievers are on earth during the wrath of God.

The second advent is when all eyes see the coming of the Lord and He sets His feet on the Mount of Olives.

When Jesus comes for the dead and Christ and later for the alive believers that remain, no one sees Him.
When Jesus comes for the 144,000 first fruits I don't know if anyone sees Him.
When Jesus comes for the gathering from heaven and earth, all eyes see Him, but He remains in the clouds and sends His angels.
So the second Advent is at the end of wrath, when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord.

Pre-trib rapture is a 'cancer' and your own words verify it by making a false claim of Jesus leaving blood washed saints behind.

"Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers.
Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past;
and they overthrow the faith of some. "
2 Timothy 2:14-18

 

[The Light]

And you didn't answer this one either. Perhaps you misunderstood. I will explain it.
Where in all of scripture are trumpets the wrath of God? What I am asking is, where else in scripture are trumpets shown to be God's wrath. Is there a case in Genesis? Isaiah? 2 Kings? For it to be the wrath of God, it has to exist somewhere else that proves it.

You quoted Isaiah 34, but nothing is there is about trumpets being wrath. If we were to piece it together, verse 4 is the 6th seal, and vs 5-7 are linked to Isaiah 61:1-3 which event is found in the bowls after Christ reigns at the 7th trumpet (Rev 19:6) at Revelation 19:13 and Rev 19:15. Neither of them are in the trumpets and none of it show that trumpets are wrath on man.

I showed you in Isaiah that the year of recompense occurs when the heavens are rolled back like a scroll. The year of recompense is the wrath of God. These events happen at the sixth seal and wrath comes when the 7th seal is opened. The trumpets are Gods wrath. It's not that difficult.

 

[ewq1938]

These events happen at the sixth seal and wrath comes when the 7th seal is opened.

What part of the 7th seal tells you there is any wrath at all?

Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

 

[The Light]

There are not 3 resurrections nor are there 2 harpazos. Unbiblical.

The dead in Christ rise first. That's Biblical.
1 Thes 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then the alive believers that remained are raptured.

1 Thes 4
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This is a completely different event than 1 Corinthians 15. The dead and alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye.
1 Corinthians 15
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Corinthians 15 occurs at the end of the great tribulation which we see here.

Daniel 12

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

And then there is this which happens at the 7th trumpet.

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

There are not 3 more comings. Also, unbiblical and heresy.

You are correct. Finally, you get it. There are not 3 more comings, there are 5 more comings.

The Lord comes for the dead in Christ.
The Lord comes for the alive believers that remain.
The Lord comes for the 144,000 first fruits.
The Lord comes for the gathering from heaven and earth.
The Lord comes with the armies of heaven.

There is only 1 time He comes. There is only 1 more advent. Only 1 more manifestation at his parousia. And according to the Bible, his appearing is in flaming fire at the last trumpet, on the last day in his Kingdom when he reigns when he will go forth to destroy those that destroy the Earth. He will not reward anyone until he sits on his glorious throne as King. He will not leave Heaven till the restoration of all things.

You want him to leave Heaven and pick us up, then return. Then leave heaven a second time and a third time. That is not scriptural.

It is absolutely scriptural. The fact you do not understand it does not make it unscriptural.

Acts 3:21
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Restitution is
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ok-at-as'-tas-is)
Definition: restoration

Have you never read Rev 11:18?

And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

His wrath finally comes now...at the time he reigns. And notice the next part, reward the dead and to judge them as we all go before the bema seat and at the end he finally goes forth to destroy the wicked. Why? Because he wasnt doing that in the trumpets. If you put this verse in Rev 4, every single Pre-Tbber would say AH Ha! Proof Text! (They love that wordage). But you move the same wording to Rev 11:18 and they want to deny it.

I explained this above.

What reward is given to the dead:
1. Prophets
2. all the saints
3. and every other single person that fears Him. That is everyone.

Here's the answer: Rev 22:12
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Let'see. He's reigning now and his reward is with him when he comes. Kinda sounds like 2 Tim 4:1
I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of His appearing and His kingdom:

Have you noticed 24 elders with crowns in Revelation 4. Why do they have their reward.

Rev 4
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

And why do many that sleep in the ground awake and not ALL that sleep in the ground awake in Daniel 12
Daniel 12
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Huh, Paul was telling us about when he'd receive his crown of immortality and he says it's at his appearing and and his Kingdom. But he also says he will judge the living and the dead when that happens. Isnt that what I just posted from Rev 11:18....he judged the dead and rewarded them...and it happened at the last trumpet....

Right. Crowns are given at His appearing. That is why there are 24 elders with crowns in Revelation 4............He has appeared to those who look for Him.

Hebrews 9
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

The order is they that are Christs at His coming.
1 Corinthians 15
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

When He comes for the Church He will appear to those who look for Him. When He comes for the 144,000.......they are Christs at His coming. When he comes for the gathering from heaven and earth......they are Christs at His coming.

It's all about timing. They Jews cannot see until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

I realize you look at my words and think, here is another person that has no idea.

Well, that's exactly what I think. You are correct. You cannot understand Revelation if you do not understand the order of Revelation.

 

[The Light]

But your wall of defense is shading you from the truth. This isnt an I win argument. Im not trying to 1-Up you. I wish you were not so hardly bound with pre-TB because it really shields people from seeing anything else that's truthful. I know some people think they wont betray it because they want to stay true to the word.

I sincerely appreciate your heart felt words. I agree that this is not to win an argument. It is to present the truth. Years ago with much study it occurred to me that something was wrong. I realized that there was a rapture at the 6th seal. Of course I thought is was the rapture of the Church which meant there was no pre trib rapture. That went along for couple of years. You could call me pre wrath or post trib if you understand that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal.

The more I studied each point of view, I realized there are absolute correct reasons that people believe in a pre trib rapture and absolute correct reasons that people believe in pre wrath and post trib raptures. Those that don't believe in a pre trib rapture such as yourself probably understand that the tribulation and wrath are not the same thing. Pretribbers are in error in thinking that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is the coming of Jesus at the end of wrath. It is not. It is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. Long story short I realized that both are correct in that there is a pre trib rapture and a post trib rapture. This verse proves there are two raptures as the fig tree has two harvests.

Hosea 9
I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

There are two harvests, the grain harvest which is barley harvest(the dead in Christ) and the wheat harvest (the alive Church). The second harvest is the fall fruit harvest which is when God has turned His attention to the Jews, which is why there are 144,000 first fruits of this harvest. Jacob had two brides, Leah and the chosen bride Rachel. Bottom line, there are two raptures.

But the Pastor's today preaching this are not understanding eschatology. It is not like any other NT book yet they treat it that way. Some of the best, most loved Pastor's, great men of faith, men I believe will be with Christ when he returns. They are wrong on Revelation. Most of them use other Pre-Tb writer's cliff notes. They don't read other writings and see why people believe this way (Pre-Wrath, Post Trib etc). They are stuck in 1 format and my heart goes out to them.

I feel the same way. But you don't understand that both are correct. There will be both a rapture before the seals are opened and a rapture at the 6th seal which is pre wrath and post trib. You see clearly that there is a pre wrath or post trib rapture but don't understand that there is also a pretrib rapture.

The fig tree has two harvests.
Jacob had two brides
One coming is like the days of Noah and one coming is like the days of Lot. Noah was in the ark 7 days before the flood but the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came.
One coming is at the trump of God or voice of God and one coming is at the last trump which is blown on the Feast of Trumpets.
One coming the Lord Himself comes and one coming He sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.
One coming the dead in Christ rise first and then the alive believers that remained are caught up. One coming the dead and alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye.

The Lord is at the door. He comes soon. It would be wise if you would gain understanding and look for Him. We can escape all the things that will come to pass. The time is very, very, very short.

 

[ewq1938]

Pretribbers are in error in thinking that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is the coming of Jesus at the end of wrath. It is not. It is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal.

Then there is understanding that both descriptions of the second coming in Matthew 24 and the 6th seal are the same...just information about it not it happening in either passage. Jesus talked about his coming in Matthew 24, and he showed John what it would look like in the 6th seal but neither was happening at the time. The second coming only happens in real time when the 7th and last trump sounds.

 

[David in NJ]

I sincerely appreciate your heart felt words. I agree that this is not to win an argument. It is to present the truth. Years ago with much study it occurred to me that something was wrong. I realized that there was a rapture at the 6th seal. Of course I thought is was the rapture of the Church which meant there was no pre trib rapture. That went along for couple of years. You could call me pre wrath or post trib if you understand that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal.

The more I studied each point of view, I realized there are absolute correct reasons that people believe in a pre trib rapture and absolute correct reasons that people believe in pre wrath and post trib raptures. Those that don't believe in a pre trib rapture such as yourself probably understand that the tribulation and wrath are not the same thing. Pretribbers are in error in thinking that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is the coming of Jesus at the end of wrath. It is not. It is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. Long story short I realized that both are correct in that there is a pre trib rapture and a post trib rapture. This verse proves there are two raptures as the fig tree has two harvests.

Hosea 9
I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

There are two harvests, the grain harvest which is barley harvest(the dead in Christ) and the wheat harvest (the alive Church). The second harvest is the fall fruit harvest which is when God has turned His attention to the Jews, which is why there are 144,000 first fruits of this harvest. Jacob had two brides, Leah and the chosen bride Rachel. Bottom line, there are two raptures.


I feel the same way. But you don't understand that both are correct. There will be both a rapture before the seals are opened and a rapture at the 6th seal which is pre wrath and post trib. You see clearly that there is a pre wrath or post trib rapture but don't understand that there is also a pretrib rapture.

The fig tree has two harvests.
Jacob had two brides
One coming is like the days of Noah and one coming is like the days of Lot. Noah was in the ark 7 days before the flood but the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came.
One coming is at the trump of God or voice of God and one coming is at the last trump which is blown on the Feast of Trumpets.
One coming the Lord Himself comes and one coming He sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.
One coming the dead in Christ rise first and then the alive believers that remained are caught up. One coming the dead and alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye.

The Lord is at the door. He comes soon. It would be wise if you would gain understanding and look for Him. We can escape all the things that will come to pass. The time is very, very, very short.

Enough of these cult pre-trib lies.

You were given opportunity after opportunity to accept the clear words of the LORD Jesus Christ and the Apostles but you choose to add your own words upon God's words = 'twisting words' of men which never came out of the mouth of God.

Every scripture rebukes the lie of pre-trib rapture = every one from Genesis to Revelation.

Genesis, the OT Prophets, Gospel, Apostles and Revelation only speak of one Second Coming of Christ.

The Apostle Paul never made a distinction between 1 Thess, 2 Thess and 1 Cor ch15 of the "Coming of the Lord"

The Apostle John and the Prophet Daniel also bear witness against you and the lies of pre-trib rapture.

You are so blinded by your idol worship that you willfully twist scripture just as satan does = for your own pleasure.

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables." - 2 Timothy 4:3

Dear Lord Jesus Christ, i pray that you rescue member @The Light from these lies that he now feels compelled more then ever to believe.
He openly and defiantly changes your words to promote a lie all the while believing he is doing 'good' and in the 'truth'.
He is part of a worldwide cultic movement that has divided the Body of Christ whereby it's leaders brandish this lie in a great ferver and speak evil of the Body of Christ who accept your words and reject mans words.

Dear Lord Jesus Christ, i also pray for the Brethren who are presently 'caught up' in this lie which will soon be exposed as the Time draws nears of your Second Coming. i pray that their hearts will not be overcome by disappointment and fear but that you would strengthen our hearts, should any of us enter tribulation whereby we must choose between this world and death, that we would not deny your Name and be strengthened by You as You have said to each one of us:
"And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death."

Dear Lord Jesus Christ, you have promised that you would leave none of your saints 'behind' and that at your Coming
the "dead in Christ will Rise First and after that the alive remaining Saints will be caught up with the Resurrected Saints."

These are your words Dear Lord Jesus, please do not allow the men & women who pervert your words to continue in their blindness of heart = save them Lord from this falsehood and restore Godly fear in us so that we do not sin against You.

Just as your word declares:
Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar. - Proverbs 30:5-6

 

[The Light]

Then there is understanding that both descriptions of the second coming in Matthew 24 and the 6th seal are the same...just information about it not it happening in either passage. Jesus talked about his coming in Matthew 24, and he showed John what it would look like in the 6th seal but neither was happening at the time. The second coming only happens in real time when the 7th and last trump sounds.

You are forcing the Word to fit your incorrect assumption as you are unable to understand that Jesus comes for a harvest at the 6th seal. Here is that harvest.........BEFORE WRATH.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

You are also apparently unable to understand that when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, Jesus has returned, Armageddon has occurred and it is the time of judgement.

 

[The Light]

Enough of these cult pre-trib lies.

You will find you are in error very soon. Best wake up to the truth fast.

You were given opportunity after opportunity to accept the clear words of the LORD Jesus Christ and the Apostles but you choose to add your own words upon God's words = 'twisting words' of men which never came out of the mouth of God.

You read the Word. I read the Word. Here is an example of what we see.

CraigsList Ads:

Red Mustang for sale. Car has 289 and four on the floor. Price is a firm $15,000 and will be sold on September 16th.

Ford for sale. Car is in primer red. The straight 6 runs absolutely perfectly and interior is as new. If the transmission is kept full there will be no issues. If the transmission fluid is low, it will slip in 1st gear occasionally. $15,000

You see one car for sale. You see a red Mustang with a firm price of $15,000 that will be sold on September 16.

I see two cars for sale. You see one. I note one car is in primer red. You claim all cars have primer. I note one car is a V-8 and one car is a six cylinder. You claim all cars have engines. I note that manual transmissions don't slip or require transmission fluid so there has to be two different cars. You claim all cars have transmissions and there is one car. You further add that the car costs $15,000 but I note that one car is not set at a firm price.

You miss all the details and walk without understanding. You are blind to the facts. Better wise up soon, real soon.

Every scripture rebukes the lie of pre-trib rapture = every one from Genesis to Revelation.

Please. This is total ignorance.

Genesis, the OT Prophets, Gospel, Apostles and Revelation only speak of one Second Coming of Christ.

And your proof?

The Apostle Paul never made a distinction between 1 Thess, 2 Thess and 1 Cor ch15 of the "Coming of the Lord"

You see one car when there are two. You see no differences in the scriptures when there are many.

The Apostle John and the Prophet Daniel also bear witness against you and the lies of pre-trib rapture.

Oh boy. 70 weeks are determined on the people of Daniel. Do you understand that? Or do you miss this detail.

Part of the Jews cannot have their eyes opened until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

You are warned to not be ignorant of this mystery. Heed the warning.

You are so blinded by your idol worship that you willfully twist scripture just as satan does = for your own pleasure.

You fail to read the details and have no clue. You will have a clue shortly when you realize that He has come and your were not watching as instructed by the Master.

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables." - 2 Timothy 4:3

We are instructed to WATCH and BE READY. The bride has made herself ready. To those WHO LOOK FOR HIM will He appear a second time.

Dear Lord Jesus Christ, i pray that you rescue member @The Light from these lies that he now feels compelled more then ever to believe.
He openly and defiantly changes your words to promote a lie all the while believing he is doing 'good' and in the 'truth'.
He is part of a worldwide cultic movement that has divided the Body of Christ whereby it's leaders brandish this lie in a great ferver and speak evil of the Body of Christ who accept your words and reject mans words.

Dear Lord Jesus Christ, i also pray for the Brethren who are presently 'caught up' in this lie which will soon be exposed as the Time draws nears of your Second Coming. i pray that their hearts will not be overcome by disappointment and fear but that you would strengthen our hearts, should any of us enter tribulation whereby we must choose between this world and death, that we would not deny your Name and be strengthened by You as You have said to each one of us:
"And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death."

Thank you for your prayer and concern. I have been instructed to watch and be ready. That is what I am doing.

Dear Lord Jesus Christ, you have promised that you would leave none of your saints 'behind' and that at your Coming
the "dead in Christ will Rise First and after that the alive remaining Saints will be caught up with the Resurrected Saints."

The best advice I could give you is to study the feasts of God. They are given for a reason. If you don't understand them, you are blind to what is going to happen.

These are your words Dear Lord Jesus, please do not allow the men & women who pervert your words to continue in their blindness of heart = save them Lord from this falsehood and restore Godly fear in us so that we do not sin against You.

Just as your word declares:
Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar. - Proverbs 30:5-6

You should be watching as the Lord has instructed.

 

[David in NJ]

You will find you are in error very soon. Best wake up to the truth fast.


You read the Word. I read the Word. Here is an example of what we see.

CraigsList Ads:

Red Mustang for sale. Car has 289 and four on the floor. Price is a firm $15,000 and will be sold on September 16th.

Ford for sale. Car is in primer red. The straight 6 runs absolutely perfectly and interior is as new. If the transmission is kept full there will be no issues. If the transmission fluid is low, it will slip in 1st gear occasionally. $15,000

You see one car for sale. You see a red Mustang with a firm price of $15,000 that will be sold on September 16.

I see two cars for sale. You see one. I note one car is in primer red. You claim all cars have primer. I note one car is a V-8 and one car is a six cylinder. You claim all cars have engines. I note that manual transmissions don't slip or require transmission fluid so there has to be two different cars. You claim all cars have transmissions and there is one car. You further add that the car costs $15,000 but I note that one car is not set at a firm price.

You miss all the details and walk without understanding. You are blind to the facts. Better wise up soon, real soon.




Please. This is total ignorance.


And your proof?

You see one car when there are two. You see no differences in the scriptures when there are many.


Oh boy. 70 weeks are determined on the people of Daniel. Do you understand that? Or do you miss this detail.

Part of the Jews cannot have their eyes opened until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

You are warned to not be ignorant of this mystery. Heed the warning.


You fail to read the details and have no clue. You will have a clue shortly when you realize that He has come and your were not watching as instructed by the Master.


We are instructed to WATCH and BE READY. The bride has made herself ready. To those WHO LOOK FOR HIM will He appear a second time.


Thank you for your prayer and concern. I have been instructed to watch and be ready. That is what I am doing.


The best advice I could give you is to study the feasts of God. They are given for a reason. If you don't understand them, you are blind to what is going to happen.


You should be watching as the Lord has instructed.

#1 - We are in the 70th week of Daniel as Messiah was "cut-off" AFTER the 69th week

24“Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression, = GOSPEL
To make an end of sins, = GOSPEL
To make reconciliation for iniquity, = GOSPEL
To bring in everlasting righteousness, = GOSPEL
To seal up vision and prophecy, = all of Revelation and 7 seals of vision and Prophecy
And to anoint the Most Holy. = GOSPEL and Book of Hebrews verifies this was accomplished = chapters 8 & 9

25“Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.

26“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;

 

[Timtofly]

Are you trying to change the subject? This has absolutely nothing to do with what I was talking about. What I was discussing was how many comings of Christ there are. Scripture says there are two. Obviously, His first coming occurred long ago and then His second coming will occur in the future. That's it. There will be no other comings of Christ besides that. Do you agree?

Only to the point, the Second Coming may be interrupted by Satan's 42 months. Jesus is not put in prison by Satan, and waiting out in a jail cell for 42 months, during Satan's corrupt political regime, where the beast and false prophet along with Satan have 100% control of the earth.

You all tend to mock the point that Jesus comes as a thief in the night at the 6th Seal. That is the Second Coming. Armageddon is not a third Coming, nor the Second Coming. It is just taking back earth after Satan's 42 months of AoD. Would waiting for 3.5 years really be considered a totally different coming?

In another thread there is the argument is Satan's 42 months part of or not part of time, no? Most, wrongly assume those at Armageddon are taken by surprise. Sounds like the best planned surprise ever, as they are all waiting in full battle gear, for an event that is supposed to be a surprise.

Perhaps you don't see the time where the mark of the beast happens, is really a Babylonian type empire? Many think the current governments are taken over by Satan. Perhaps Jesus is still in control, but lets Satan call the shots? The problem is with your false recapitulation theory. But even so, the government called the 8th kingdom, does not happen until the 7th Trumpet sounds. Chapter 12 and 13 is an interruption of chapter 11, where the 7th Trumpet already declared all the kingdoms on earth belonged to Christ, the 7th kingdom was declared in the 7th Trumpet. Satan's 42 months is not over at the 7th Trumpet. It has not even started at that point. So Jesus leaving and coming back 42 months later is not the same as leaving 1993 years ago. The 7th Trumpet celebration is cut short and that is what Daniel 9:27 declares. The 7th kingdom is placed on hold for Satan's 42 months, the 8th kingdom.

"And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

Do people even pay attention to the math? Jerusalem has been and will be around for all 8 kingdoms, even though desolate at times. 5 are fallen: Babylon, Medes and Persia, Greece, Rome, and the Revived Roman Empire, which ended with the Reformation. Those 5 are gone, and will never return. The "one is" was still around when John wrote the events down, as they were happening. We are in the 6th kingdom, until the Second Coming. Then Jesus is the 7th kingdom. Notice what is said about the 7th kingdom:

"and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space."

This is Jesus and the 7th Kingdom. But notice how there are 7 heads but 8 kingdoms? Satan has been around for all 7 kingdoms, even the brief 7th of Jesus at the Second Coming in the 6th Seal. 7 kingdoms. But the 8th does not mean Jesus is no longer King, it just means Satan gets one last shot before being bound up during the remainder of the 7th Kingdom, the Day of the Lord. Only after the 7th Trumpet sounds, is this short 42 month kingdom even allowed.

There are only supposed to be 7 kingdoms, not 8. That is why Daniel 9:27 calls it an interruption.

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

The 7th Trumpet is the declaration of the 7th kingdom. But all is put on hold if Satan is allowed to have 42 months to set up the AoD. That is why Revelation 13 is an interruption to Revelation 11, after the 7th Trumpet already sounded. After the 7th Trumpet, earth does not return to the first century and go through it all over again. Earth may have to only endure 42 months of the 8th kingdom. That is when Revelation 15 16, 17, 18, and 19 kick in. If no 8th kingdom, then after 11, we have 14, then chapter 20 where Satan is bound for the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord is the 7th kingdom.

Not even pre-mill, post trib, nor pre trib seem to want to acknowledge that the Second Coming, at the 6th Seal, brings Jesus to earth as King, and that the 7th Trumpet declares this 7th kingdom in full effect. All before the FP and mark is even implemented.

 

[Timtofly]

The souls of the dead go back to God, who made them. Eccl 12:7
The idea they cavort in "paradise', is a Muslim teaching. The Bible says they know nothing and their next conscious moment will be when they stand before God in Judgment.

Prior to the Cross, there was no physical resurrection. The souls were in Abraham's bosom.

Paradise is not Abraham's bosom in sheol. Paradise is where the tree of life is. A physical tree that physical bodies, physically eat from. This is Paradise since the Cross in 30AD for the last 1993 years:

"a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."

That has been Paradise for the last 1993 years. The thief went to Paradise the day of the Cross. The rest of the OT redeemed including Lazarus ascended with the Lamb on resurrection Sunday. That is not Abraham's bosom in sheol. There is a heavenly temple they have been serving in since the Cross. They have physical bodies and are waiving physical palm leaves. They are as the angels, and do not procreate in Paradise. Definitely not what Islam teaches. Do you think John quoted the Koran to get his point across?

Ecclesiasties is not the final story. Yes, the body returns to dust. The soul waited in Abraham's bosom. That was prior to the Cross. Now post the Cross, the soul is given God's permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise, where they serve God day and night in that heavenly temple. If they were on earth they would have the sun shining down on them. There is no sun in Paradise.

 

[Timtofly]

Genesis chapters 1 thru 6 is a rebuke of pre-trib and God Given Declaration that 'pre-trib' is a lie.

So God creating, points to tribulation?

By one man sin entered the world. You read it as by God's creating heaven and earth, sin entered the world.

 

[David in NJ]

So God creating, points to tribulation?

By one man sin entered the world. You read it as by God's creating heaven and earth, sin entered the world.

Genesis ch1 = GOOD God - Good Creation - No sin

Genesis ch2 = GOOD God - Good Adam & Eve - No sin

Genesis ch3 = BAD Serpent - SIN - Big Trouble

Genesis ch4 = BAD Devil - More SIN - MURDER - Tribulation

Genesis ch5 = Enoch walked with the GOOD God - Enoch is a Foreshadow of Christ = Both confronted fallen angels

Genesis ch6 = BAD "sons of God" mixing with "daughters of men" = BAD nephilim BIG Time Tribulation

Genesis ch7 = GOOD God Deliverance from Wrath in the Ark - REST from BIG BAD ch6

Genesis ch8 = GOOD God , Noah and a New Beginning for Mankind

 

[Keraz]

Ecclesiasties is not the final story. Yes, the body returns to dust. The soul waited in Abraham's bosom. That was prior to the Cross. Now post the Cross, the soul is given God's permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise, where they serve God day and night in that heavenly temple. If they were on earth they would have the sun shining down on them. There is no sun in Paradise.

What unscriptural nonsense!
The dead people from Adam to now, ALL 'sleep' in the grave, they know nothing until they are raised to stand before God in Judgment. Hebrews 9:27, Revelation 20:11-15

 

[Timtofly]

You said the dead have already risen which is the same error Paul warned against, just different wording...same meaning. It is a false teaching no matter what words you use.

So saying that Jesus rose from the dead is heresy? That was the Resurrection that was passed. The point of error was claiming no future resurrection, can happen. Not that a resurrection had occurred. If you are in Christ you have and will experience a resurrection out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh.