the 7th Trump

[Timtofly]

Yes Brother, but notice there are no trumpet calls in Rev ch20

Why?

Because the Last Trumpet Call, which is the 7th, has already been established in:
a.) Matthew ch24
b.) 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
c.) 1 Corinthians chapter 15
d.) Revelation 10:7
e.) Revelation 11:15

Once God establishes for us a certain Truth for us, He does not need to continue stating it.

i am sure you understand and know what a 'dualfold' prophecy is where in one prophetic utterance there can be an immediate or near fulfillment along with one that is further on in time.

Exactly, the 7th Trumpet could be heard in the 6th Seal. However the time it sounds, after the other 6th Trumpets, is still the 7th Sounding. The 7th Trumpet could also have been used to herald the birth of Christ. Gabriel is very well the archangel, owner of the 7th Trumpet. He announced the first coming and will announce the Second Coming.

What will not happen is the other 6 Trumpets sounding before the 6th Seal is opened. Surely that 7th Trumpet, owned by Gabriel, can blow at any time since Genesis 1:1 and still is the Last Trumpet. It could even be sounded after the Millennium at the GWT.

 

[Keraz]

The Resurrection has been an ongoing phenomenon since the Cross.

Even Paul could not prevent those when he was alive to rise first. They are already risen. Once Paul himself entered Paradise, no one on earth could prevent nor stop that. So, no belief system will change that fact. The dead in Christ have risen first.

This is quite wrong.
All the dead lie in their graves, they know nothing and 'sleep' until the Last Trumpet raises them to stand before God in Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15
Even David 'sleeps', Acts 13:36

The only dead people who will be raised back to life when Jesus Returns, will be the Martyrs murdered during the period of Satanic control. Rev 20:4

 

[Keraz]

Exactly, the 7th Trumpet could be heard in the 6th Seal.

Impossible!
The Seventh Trumpet will sound years after the Sixth Seal. You play fast and loose with the Revelation sequence of events; as given.

Its not hard to see how things will happen; next Prophesied event will be the Sixth Seal, which will change the world and a One World Govt will be established. The 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls are Gods punishment on those people who follow the 'beast' leader of the OWG. During the final 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns. The 7 Bowl is the battle of Armageddon, Revelation 16:16-18

 

[Timtofly]

The Lord Jesus Christ said HE is the Way the Truth and the Life.

As HE is the Way, HE says to us: "take up your cross and follow Me."

If you take the time this week to read 1 Thessalonians you will see the Apostle Paul instructing them that tribulation, even unto death, is expected for us who have been Saved and are now a inseparable part of Christ.

What we are promised by God thru Christ and in 1 Thessalonians is this = "Jesus our Deliverer from the wrath to come".

2 Thessalonians follows with the same theme = tribulation from the world against the Saved but deliverence from the Wrath of God.

Please let this be engraven in your mind and heart = 1 Thess 3:13 and 4:13-14

Peace

The tribulation at the Second Coming though is Jacob's trouble. It is not for the church, but Jacob. The church has been in great trouble since 30AD.

 

[Timtofly]

A Rapture to heaven of the Church is nowhere stated in the Bible, But Jesus said six times that it was impossible for humans to go to heaven.

The soul is the human part of a human, not the body, nor spirit. Are you saying there are no souls in Paradise? Are they still in sheol?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Is there a controversy to discuss here? Do some not agree that the Second Coming is... coming?
I know the Rapture is controversial. Pre/mid/post/pan

I assume a "Trump" is a trumpet? (aka in Rev.)
I'm no expert in trumpet counting. A seventh trumpet sounds like more than I was anticipating.
A little background on how you arrived at seven would be helpful. Thanks.

The controversy is that same believe that the coming of Christ referenced in 1 Thess 4:14-17 is not the second coming of Christ. That belief is not supported at all by scripture, yet that's what many people believe.

As pointed out in the original post, their view of 2 future comings of Christ (3 total) contradicts Hebrews 9:28 which indicates that He is only coming a second time.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

If this passage isn't describing the second coming of Christ then no passage of scripture does. But, it obviously is describing the one and only future coming of Christ.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

My post is specifically directed at the false doctrine of pre-trib rapture whereby they use Matthew 25:1-13 to validate there belief system.

It makes no sense for anyone to try to use Matthew 25:1-13 to support the pre-trib rapture theory. That passage speaks of the coming of the Son of Man of which no one knows the day or hour. All they need to do is look at the following passage to see the timing of the coming of the Son of Man in relation to the tribulation:

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

It makes no sense to think that the coming of Christ referenced in Matthew 25:1-13 is some other coming of Christ than the one referenced here. The gathering of the wise virgins to Himself at His coming in Matthew 25:1-13 is equivalent to the gathering of the elect referenced in this passage.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Here's a question.
What is the point of a Post-Tribulation Rapture?

What are we being raptured from?
Isn't that a U-Turn Rapture?
Or will we miss the Millennium?

Great questions.

First of all, the thing that people need to remember is that there were no chapter divisions in the original manuscripts. Those were added by English translators. They are often helpful, but not always. In the case of 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5 it has led to some people thinking that 1 Thess 4:14-17 is a different event entirely from 1 Thess 5:1-3, which is unfortunate.

So, 1 Thess 4:14-17 describes the rapture and then Paul wrote this:

1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

So, this is what we are being raptured from. God's wrath that will come down on the day of the Lord. According to Paul the scope of the destruction will be so vast and complete that "they will not escape". With "they" being unbelievers, God's enemies.

As for your question about it being a "U-Turn Rapture", my answer is no. I am an Amillennialist so I do not believe we will be caught up to meet the Lord "in the air" only to then be brought down back to the earth as Premillennialists believe. What is the point of being caught up "in the air" in that case? I've tried questioning Premils on this, but don't ever get any kind of reasonable response if I get any response at all.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

A Rapture to heaven of the Church is nowhere stated in the Bible, But Jesus said six times that it was impossible for humans to go to heaven

He referenced a rapture, but didn't say anything about a rapture to heaven. Why don't you actually read what people are saying instead of making assumptions about what they believe?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Good Morning Tr7

Death is swallowed up in victory ONLY for the SAVED = the SAVED are not part of the GWT Judgment

"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
The one who overcomes will not be harmed by the second death." - Rev 2:11

I see a connection between death being swallowed up in victory and what Paul wrote here:

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Paul was referencing this verse:

Isaiah 25:8 he will swallow up death forever. The Sovereign Lord will wipe away the tears from all faces; he will remove his people’s disgrace
from all the earth. The Lord has spoken.

The verse is referenced here as well:

Revelation 21:4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

So, in my view, these passages along with 1 Cor 15:22-23 and 1 Cor 15:51-54 place the timing of death being swallowed up in victory at "the end" when Jesus comes at the last trumpet and "hands over the kingdom to God the Father" and when "the old order of things has passed away" at the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The end of this present Age ruled by satan/sinful men and his angels.

It is not the End of the Heavens and Earth

Jesus taught that at the end of this present age believers "will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father".

Matthew 13:40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

So, is it your belief that the kingdom of the Father will be on the earth as we know it rather than on the new earth?

The Final Judgment comes after the 1,000 Years whereby the heavens and earth burn up with intense heat and are destroyed.

So, you are saying what is described in the following passage (the heavens and earth being burned up and destroyed) will occur after the thousand years, right?

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

Do you believe that the following will occur after the thousand years as well?

1 Thessalonians 5:2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Thanks for your patience in calmly explaining these things to me. Much appreciated.

Doesn't this place Armageddon at the end of the Millennium?
Or is this another battle?

It's not another battle. History isn't going to repeat itself. Scripture teaches that Christ will destroy all of His enemies when He returns and both Revelation 19:11-21 and Revelation 20:7-9 depict that. The book of Revelation sometimes gives different vantage points of the same event. Revelation 16:12-16 is the same battle as well.

Also interesting is the phrase "the four quarters of the earth". (4 corners)
A flat earth view. But that's another topic.

Don't get confused by that. That's figurative text to refer to the entire earth (north, south, east, west - all of it).

 

[David in NJ]

I see a connection between death being swallowed up in victory and what Paul wrote here:

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Paul was referencing this verse:

Isaiah 25:8 he will swallow up death forever. The Sovereign Lord will wipe away the tears from all faces; he will remove his people’s disgrace
from all the earth. The Lord has spoken.

The verse is referenced here as well:

Revelation 21:4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

So, in my view, these passages along with 1 Cor 15:22-23 and 1 Cor 15:51-54 place the timing of death being swallowed up in victory at "the end" when Jesus comes at the last trumpet and "hands over the kingdom to God the Father" and when "the old order of things has passed away" at the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth.

Excellent Post with Beautiful passages of Scripture that we are all earnestly desiring.

In 1 Cor ch15 "death is swallowed UP (ResurrectionRapture) is only for the Saints at the Second Coming of Christ.

After the 1,000 Years this takes place = Revelation 20:11-15

Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away.
And there was found no place for them.
And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened.
And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire.
This is the second death.
And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Excellent Post with Beautiful passages of Scripture that we are all earnestly desiring.

Thanks. But, it's interesting that you consider a post that you disagree with to be "excellent".

In 1 Cor ch15 "death is swallowed UP (ResurrectionRapture) is only for the Saints at the Second Coming of Christ.

How is that any different than what Paul referenced a bit earlier in 1 Corinthians 15:26 when he talked about the last enemy, death, being destroyed? It seems to me that the way in which death will be destroyed is by being swallowed up in victory.

But, for the sake of argument, let's just assume that it's only talking about death being swallowed up in victory for the saints and not talking about the end of death itself.

As a Premil, how do you reconcile death being swallowed up in victory at the second coming of Christ with your belief that mortals will continue living on the earth after that? Do you not believe that any saints/believers will die during the thousand years and/or during Satan's little season? If you do believe that, then doesn't that lessen the significance of what is stated in 1 Corinthians 15:54-56? It would mean that death is swallowed up in victory only partially at the last trumpet rather than completely. But, that is not the sense I get when reading that passage.

After the 1,000 Years this takes place = Revelation 20:11-15

I agree. Yet, I know we disagree on when it takes place in relation to the second coming of Christ. I feel that the onus is on you to explain why being swallowed up in victory is any different than death being destroyed. Also, I feel that the onus is on you to explain why Isaiah 25:8 is referenced in both 1 Corinthians 15:54 and Revelation 21:4 if the timing of those 2 verses is 1,000+ years apart, as you believe.

But, with all of that said, I know the main point of this thread is to refute the pre-trib rapture theory and you have done a good job of that.

 

[Timtofly]

The controversy is that same believe that the coming of Christ referenced in 1 Thess 4:14-17 is not the second coming of Christ. That belief is not supported at all by scripture, yet that's what many people believe.

As pointed out in the original post, their view of 2 future comings of Christ (3 total) contradicts Hebrews 9:28 which indicates that He is only coming a second time.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

If this passage isn't describing the second coming of Christ then no passage of scripture does. But, it obviously is describing the one and only future coming of Christ.

The first coming was not a one day work.

Not sure why you think the Second Coming would only last for a few hours, or even seconds.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The first coming was not a one day work.

Not sure why you think the Second Coming would only last for a few hours, or even seconds.

Are you trying to change the subject? This has absolutely nothing to do with what I was talking about. What I was discussing was how many comings of Christ there are. Scripture says there are two. Obviously, His first coming occurred long ago and then His second coming will occur in the future. That's it. There will be no other comings of Christ besides that. Do you agree?

 

[Keraz]

The soul is the human part of a human, not the body, nor spirit. Are you saying there are no souls in Paradise? Are they still in sheol?

The souls of the dead go back to God, who made them. Eccl 12:7
The idea they cavort in "paradise', is a Muslim teaching. The Bible says they know nothing and their next conscious moment will be when they stand before God in Judgment.

He referenced a rapture, but didn't say anything about a rapture to heaven. Why don't you actually read what people are saying instead of making assumptions about what they believe?

From what I understand of the 'rapture' theory; the destination is heaven.
Scripture never says such a thing will happen, Jesus says it is impossible. Rapture believers cannot even agree amongst themselves when it could happen, proving how wrong and deceived they all are.

 

[Zao is life]

Great questions.

First of all, the thing that people need to remember is that there were no chapter divisions in the original manuscripts. Those were added by English translators. They are often helpful, but not always. In the case of 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5 it has led to some people thinking that 1 Thess 4:14-17 is a different event entirely from 1 Thess 5:1-3, which is unfortunate.

So, 1 Thess 4:14-17 describes the rapture and then Paul wrote this:

1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

So, this is what we are being raptured from. God's wrath that will come down on the day of the Lord. According to Paul the scope of the destruction will be so vast and complete that "they will not escape". With "they" being unbelievers, God's enemies.

As for your question about it being a "U-Turn Rapture", my answer is no. I am an Amillennialist so I do not believe we will be caught up to meet the Lord "in the air" only to then be brought down back to the earth as Premillennialists believe. What is the point of being caught up "in the air" in that case? I've tried questioning Premils on this, but don't ever get any kind of reasonable response if I get any response at all.

Let's see if scripture tells us who His armies are:

"And the armies in Heaven followed Him on white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
And out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, so that with it He should strike the nations. And He will shepherd them with a rod of iron. And He treads the winepress of the wine of the anger and of the wrath of Almighty God.
And He has on His garment, and on His thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS."

"These [ten kings] will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them. For He is Lord of lords and King of kings. And those with Him are the called and elect and faithful ones."

"And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
For they are spirits of demons, working miracles, which go forth to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that day, the great day of God Almighty.
Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.
And he gathered them into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon."

"And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth and their armies, being gathered to make war against Him who sat on the horse, and against His army.
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet doing signs before it, (by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast), and those who had worshiped his image. The two were thrown alive into the Lake of Fire burning with brimstone."
​

Who is His army?

"Let us be glad and rejoice and we will give glory to Him. For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has prepared herself.
And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white. For the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints."

"And the armies in Heaven followed Him on white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

Rev.19:14-16; Rev.17:14; Rev.16:13-16; Rev.19:19-20; Rev.19:7-8 and Rev.19:14.​

It would be interesting to know how you believe the above takes place before this:

16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thess 4

 

[Zao is life]

St. SteVen said:

LOL - That's funny.

What do you make of this?

Matthew 24:40-41 NIV
Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.
41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

Interestingly, the context of the scripture I quoted above tells us something
about the timing of the Second Coming. What do you make of that?

Matthew 24:38-41 NIV
For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking,
marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark;
39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came
and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.
41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered into the ark.
39 And they did not know until the flood came and took [airo] them all [hapas] away . So also will be the coming of the Son of man.
40 Then two shall be in the field; the one shall be taken [airo], and the other left.
41 Two shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken [airo], and the other left.

Took who away? Noah and his family? Or those who were being judged?

[Strongs Greek] 142 airo ah'-ee-ro
a primary root; to lift up; by implication, to take up or away; figuratively, to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind), specially, to sail away (i.e. weigh anchor); by Hebraism (compare 5375) to expiate sin:--away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up). see HEBREW for 05375

[Strongs Greek] 537 hapas hap'-as from 1 (as a particle of union) and 3956; absolutely all or (singular) every one:--all (things), every (one), whole. see GREEK for 1 see GREEK for 3956

To me the above suggests that the verses are saying that when Noah entered the ark, the flood came and Noah was completely [hapas] lifted up / taken away, and the rest perished,

but as always, how any part of scripture is interpreted, is a choice, and how it's interpreted will depend on which theological or eschatological model the interpretation fits neatly into. Even how the Greek word is interpreted is a choice, as usual.

The danger and sickening tragedy lies in the fact that for many Christians, theological and eschatological models become the way to interpret what is written. For most, what is written has ceased being the thing that decides what the theological and eschatological premise should be, a long time ago - the two greatest examples of this being Preterism/Partial Preterism and Pretribulationism.

 

[Zao is life]

If you actually read Revelation 19:11-21, you would know the Jesus Returns to win the Battle of Armageddon.

A Rapture to heaven of the Church is nowhere stated in the Bible, But Jesus said six times that it was impossible for humans to go to heaven

The Bible describes the GWT Judgment. I believe and promote it as Written.
Just because you have other ideas about who and when resurrection and immortality are conferred, your objections are overruled by the truths of scripture.

There are over 100 Prophesies that vividly describe the Lords terrible Day of fiery wrath. After that Day, the world will never be the same again. Denial of what we are told will come, is just 'head in the sand'.
.
.

Keras I would like to ask you something.

Has the New Covenant come, and if so, who has received it?

I would need to know what your answer is to the above questions before I could consider anything else you have to say about the return of Christ, because the last time the above questions came up, you said that the New Covenant has not yet been given to Christians, any more than it has been given to unbelieving Jews.

Have you changed your mind about the above since you first asserted the above?