The answer of hell and its origins
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I'm not the one trying to rewrite our Bible. You are. And you are not qualified!
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I don't think Barney has ever read the Bible. I think Kingdom Hall is his bible. Notice how Barney avoids talking about Kingdom Hall? How long did you say you "studied" at Kingdom Hall? 30 years?
bbyrd009
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seems like you are saying ezackly what he is saying, only in disagreement? i dont get it
still awful early tho lol
bbyrd009
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robert derrick
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And you're the only one talking about the Lord Jesus Christ and God torturing people. Show In Scripture where it says God tortures people, then I'll believe it. Until then your suggestion that He does, is a false accusation against Him and His written word.
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
I don't agree God tortures any creature He makes, because the Bible does not say He does. I disagree with those who accuse Him of it by way of suggestion. God is not a torturer of any angel or man, and to suggest it is a hateful lie against Him and His written word, that world has been doing for thousands of years. And because of that lie, many souls have been lost to God.
Jesus Christ dying on the cross proves it is not God that would torture wicked man, but wicked man that would torture God.
I already shown from the chapters of Revelation God "tortures". Also Matthew 25:46 shows that too.
Genesis 6–7 – The Great Flood
Deuteronomy 4:36
Verse Concepts
Out of the heavens He let you hear His voice to discipline you; and on earth He let you see His great fire, and you heard His words from the midst of the fire.
Source: 73 Bible verses about Punishment, By God
Psalm 32:3-4
When I kept silent about my sin, my body wasted away
Through my groaning all day long.
For day and night Your hand was heavy upon me;
My vitality was drained away as with the fever heat of summer. Selah.
Source: 73 Bible verses about Punishment, By God
Psalm 118:18
Verse Concepts
The Lord has disciplined me severely,
But He has not given me over to death
Source: 73 Bible verses about Punishment, By God
Psalm 119:75
Verse Concepts
I know, O Lord, that Your judgments are righteous,
And that in faithfulness You have afflicted me.
Source: 73 Bible verses about Punishment, By God
Leviticus 10:1-3
Now Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took their respective firepans, and after putting fire in them, placed incense on it and offered strange fire before the Lord, which He had not commanded them. And fire came out from the presence of the Lord and consumed them, and they died before the Lord. Then Moses said to Aaron, “It is what the Lord spoke, saying,
‘By those who come near Me I will be treated as holy,
And before all the people I will be honored.’”
So Aaron, therefore, kept silent.
Numbers 11:1-3
Now the people became like those who complain of adversity in the hearing of the Lord; and when the Lord heard it, His anger was kindled, and the fire of the Lord burned among them and consumed some of the outskirts of the camp. The people therefore cried out to Moses, and Moses prayed to the Lord and the fire died out. So the name of that place was called Taberah, because the fire of the Lord burned among them.
Source: 73 Bible verses about Punishment, By God
Remember what God did to many in the Wilderness.
2 Samuel 6:6-8
But when they came to the threshing floor of Nacon, Uzzah reached out toward the ark of God and took hold of it, for the oxen nearly upset it. And the anger of the Lord burned against Uzzah, and God struck him down there for his irreverence; and he died there by the ark of God. David became angry because of the Lord’s outburst against Uzzah, and that place is called Perez-uzzah to this day.
Source: 73 Bible verses about Punishment, By God
Deuteronomy 4:36
Verse Concepts
Out of the heavens He let you hear His voice to discipline you; and on earth He let you see His great fire, and you heard His words from the midst of the fire.
Source: 73 Bible verses about Punishment, By God
Psalm 32:3-4
When I kept silent about my sin, my body wasted away
Through my groaning all day long.
For day and night Your hand was heavy upon me;
My vitality was drained away as with the fever heat of summer. Selah.
Source: 73 Bible verses about Punishment, By God
Psalm 118:18
Verse Concepts
The Lord has disciplined me severely,
But He has not given me over to death
Source: 73 Bible verses about Punishment, By God
Psalm 119:75
Verse Concepts
I know, O Lord, that Your judgments are righteous,
And that in faithfulness You have afflicted me.
Source: 73 Bible verses about Punishment, By God
Leviticus 10:1-3
Now Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took their respective firepans, and after putting fire in them, placed incense on it and offered strange fire before the Lord, which He had not commanded them. And fire came out from the presence of the Lord and consumed them, and they died before the Lord. Then Moses said to Aaron, “It is what the Lord spoke, saying,
‘By those who come near Me I will be treated as holy,
And before all the people I will be honored.’”
So Aaron, therefore, kept silent.
Numbers 11:1-3
Now the people became like those who complain of adversity in the hearing of the Lord; and when the Lord heard it, His anger was kindled, and the fire of the Lord burned among them and consumed some of the outskirts of the camp. The people therefore cried out to Moses, and Moses prayed to the Lord and the fire died out. So the name of that place was called Taberah, because the fire of the Lord burned among them.
Source: 73 Bible verses about Punishment, By God
Remember what God did to many in the Wilderness.
2 Samuel 6:6-8
But when they came to the threshing floor of Nacon, Uzzah reached out toward the ark of God and took hold of it, for the oxen nearly upset it. And the anger of the Lord burned against Uzzah, and God struck him down there for his irreverence; and he died there by the ark of God. David became angry because of the Lord’s outburst against Uzzah, and that place is called Perez-uzzah to this day.
Source: 73 Bible verses about Punishment, By God
1 Chronicles 13:9-11
When they came to the threshing floor of Chidon, Uzza put out his hand to hold the ark, because the oxen nearly upset it. The anger of the Lord burned against Uzza, so He struck him down because he put out his hand to the ark; and he died there before God. Then David became angry because of the Lord’s outburst against Uzza; and he called that place Perez-uzza to this day.
Source: 73 Bible verses about Punishment, By God
Romans 1:18
Verse Concepts
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
Source: 73 Bible verses about Punishment, By God
Isaiah 13:11
Verse Concepts
Thus I will punish the world for its evil
And the wicked for their iniquity;
I will also put an end to the arrogance of the proud
And abase the haughtiness of the ruthless.
Isaiah 26:21
Verse Concepts
For behold, the Lord is about to come out from His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
And the earth will reveal her bloodshed
And will no longer cover her slain.
Isaiah 66:16
Verse Concepts
For the Lord will execute judgment by fire
And by His sword on all flesh,
And those slain by the Lord will be many.
Source: 73 Bible verses about Punishment, By God
Malachi 4:1
Verse Concepts
“For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the Lord of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.”
Source: 73 Bible verses about Punishment, By God
When they came to the threshing floor of Chidon, Uzza put out his hand to hold the ark, because the oxen nearly upset it. The anger of the Lord burned against Uzza, so He struck him down because he put out his hand to the ark; and he died there before God. Then David became angry because of the Lord’s outburst against Uzza; and he called that place Perez-uzza to this day.
Source: 73 Bible verses about Punishment, By God
Romans 1:18
Verse Concepts
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
Source: 73 Bible verses about Punishment, By God
Isaiah 13:11
Verse Concepts
Thus I will punish the world for its evil
And the wicked for their iniquity;
I will also put an end to the arrogance of the proud
And abase the haughtiness of the ruthless.
Isaiah 26:21
Verse Concepts
For behold, the Lord is about to come out from His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
And the earth will reveal her bloodshed
And will no longer cover her slain.
Isaiah 66:16
Verse Concepts
For the Lord will execute judgment by fire
And by His sword on all flesh,
And those slain by the Lord will be many.
Source: 73 Bible verses about Punishment, By God
Malachi 4:1
Verse Concepts
“For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the Lord of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.”
Source: 73 Bible verses about Punishment, By God
Mantis
Well-Known Member
the “crimes” for which God prescribes the death penalty,
God’s anger and wrath in punishing his people, and
God’s command to the Israelites to commit genocide.
Divine retribution is often portrayed in the Tanak or Old Testament.
Genesis 3:14–24 – Curse upon Adam and Eve and expulsion from the Garden of Eden; Disobedience
Genesis 4:9–15 – Curse upon Cain after his slaying of his brother, Abel
Genesis 6–7 – The Great Flood; Rampant evil and Nephilim
Genesis 11:1–9 – The confusion of languages at the Tower of Babel; To scatter them over the Earth
Genesis 19:23–29 – Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah; people of no redeeming value
Genesis 38:6–10 – Destruction of Er and Onan; wickedness in the Lord's sight
Exodus 7–14 – Plagues of Egypt; to establish his power over that of the gods of Egypt
Exodus 19:10–25 – Divine threatenings at Mount Sinai; warn that the mountain is off limits and holy
Exodus 32 – Plagues at the incident of the golden calf; disowning the people for breaking his covenant with them
Leviticus 10:1–2 – Nadab and Abihu are burned; offering unauthorised fire in their censers
Leviticus 26:14–39 – Curses upon the disobedient; divine warning
Numbers 11 – A plague accompanies the giving of manna in the wilderness; rejecting his gracious gift of heavenly food and failing his test of obedience
Numbers 16 – The rebellion of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram – Their supernatural deaths and the plague that followed; insolence and attempting self-promotion to roles they were unworthy of holding
Numbers 20:9–13 – Reprimand of Moses at the water of Meribah; disobeying the Lord's instruction, showing distrust and indifference in God's presence
Numbers 21 – Murmuring of the people and the plague of fiery flying serpent; spurning God's grace
Numbers 25 – Whoredom with the Moabites and resulting plague; breaching God's covenant through sexual immorality and worshipping other gods
Deuteronomy 28 – Curses pronounced upon the disobedient; another divine warning
1 Samuel 6:19 – some/many men of Beth Shemesh killed; Looking into the Ark of the Covenant
2 Samuel 6:1–7 – Uzzah struck dead; Touching the Ark of the Covenant
1 Kings 11 – God promises to tear King Solomon's kingdom from his son except for a single tribe; Building altars to other gods for his wives
Job 14:13 – sending trials to the just man Job
New Testament
See also: Attributes of God in Christianity § Wrath
The New Testament associates the wrath of God particularly with imagery of the Last Day, described allegorically in Romans 2:5 as the "day of wrath", and the Book of Revelation. The wrath of God is mentioned in at least twenty verses of the New Testament. Examples are:
John 3:36 – John the Baptist declares that whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.[18]
Acts 5:1 – Ananias and his wife Sapphira struck dead, Holding back some of the proceeds after selling a piece of property
Romans 1:18 – For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Romans 5:9 – Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
Romans 12:19 – Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord."
Ephesians 5:6 – Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
Revelation 6:17 – For the great day of his wrath has come, and who is able to withstand?
Revelation 14:19 – So the angel swung his sickle across the earth and gathered the grape harvest of the earth and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Revelation 15:1 – Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God was finished.
Revelation 19:15 – From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.
God’s anger and wrath in punishing his people, and
God’s command to the Israelites to commit genocide.
God’s Violence in the Old Testament: The Problem
Relating faith to everyday life. Here I post thoughts on Faith including excerpts from my latest books, resources for churches, posts current events, and reflections on questions I'm frequently asked about, theology, ethics, the bible. Thanks for dropping by. -Adam Hamilton
www.adamhamilton.com
Divine retribution is often portrayed in the Tanak or Old Testament.
Genesis 3:14–24 – Curse upon Adam and Eve and expulsion from the Garden of Eden; Disobedience
Genesis 4:9–15 – Curse upon Cain after his slaying of his brother, Abel
Genesis 6–7 – The Great Flood; Rampant evil and Nephilim
Genesis 11:1–9 – The confusion of languages at the Tower of Babel; To scatter them over the Earth
Genesis 19:23–29 – Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah; people of no redeeming value
Genesis 38:6–10 – Destruction of Er and Onan; wickedness in the Lord's sight
Exodus 7–14 – Plagues of Egypt; to establish his power over that of the gods of Egypt
Exodus 19:10–25 – Divine threatenings at Mount Sinai; warn that the mountain is off limits and holy
Exodus 32 – Plagues at the incident of the golden calf; disowning the people for breaking his covenant with them
Leviticus 10:1–2 – Nadab and Abihu are burned; offering unauthorised fire in their censers
Leviticus 26:14–39 – Curses upon the disobedient; divine warning
Numbers 11 – A plague accompanies the giving of manna in the wilderness; rejecting his gracious gift of heavenly food and failing his test of obedience
Numbers 16 – The rebellion of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram – Their supernatural deaths and the plague that followed; insolence and attempting self-promotion to roles they were unworthy of holding
Numbers 20:9–13 – Reprimand of Moses at the water of Meribah; disobeying the Lord's instruction, showing distrust and indifference in God's presence
Numbers 21 – Murmuring of the people and the plague of fiery flying serpent; spurning God's grace
Numbers 25 – Whoredom with the Moabites and resulting plague; breaching God's covenant through sexual immorality and worshipping other gods
Deuteronomy 28 – Curses pronounced upon the disobedient; another divine warning
1 Samuel 6:19 – some/many men of Beth Shemesh killed; Looking into the Ark of the Covenant
2 Samuel 6:1–7 – Uzzah struck dead; Touching the Ark of the Covenant
1 Kings 11 – God promises to tear King Solomon's kingdom from his son except for a single tribe; Building altars to other gods for his wives
Job 14:13 – sending trials to the just man Job
New Testament
See also: Attributes of God in Christianity § Wrath
The New Testament associates the wrath of God particularly with imagery of the Last Day, described allegorically in Romans 2:5 as the "day of wrath", and the Book of Revelation. The wrath of God is mentioned in at least twenty verses of the New Testament. Examples are:
John 3:36 – John the Baptist declares that whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.[18]
Acts 5:1 – Ananias and his wife Sapphira struck dead, Holding back some of the proceeds after selling a piece of property
Romans 1:18 – For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Romans 5:9 – Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
Romans 12:19 – Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord."
Ephesians 5:6 – Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
Revelation 6:17 – For the great day of his wrath has come, and who is able to withstand?
Revelation 14:19 – So the angel swung his sickle across the earth and gathered the grape harvest of the earth and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Revelation 15:1 – Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God was finished.
Revelation 19:15 – From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.
“ … And he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone before the holy angels and before the Lamb. The smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever …” (Revelation 14:10-11, see also Rev. 20:10)
www.biblegateway.com
BibleGateway - Keyword Search: torment
He also uses their jargon like "reasoning from the scriptures" One of the watchtower books.
bbyrd009
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ha well but the "suggestion" was actually that He did not, does not; unless i was reading it wrong?
well, i am not disagreeing, but you have not addressed the point; who was saying that?
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
You can accuse all you want. Seems that's the way it is with you.You accuse people when they disagree with you, so be it. Just let's me know that you don't think people have the right to disagree with you.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
bbyrd009
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it makes a poor metaphor imo, as Gehenna is on earth, and they had contemporary terms for our concept of "hel," Abaddon, etc
also when it is realized that our concept of "eternal" (meaning forever) is not the term that was written, but rather "aion" (whereas "forever" to them would have been "aidios"), then imo it all starts to come together
All go to the same place
No one has ever gone up to heaven
also, the Roman Centurion more or less described his religion, in more or less the exact same way most believers believe today; "i tell some guy to go somewhere, and he goes," etc
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