The biblical necessity of a Pretribulation Rapture

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Dave L

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Another problem is with the audience in Matthew 24 whom Jesus speaks to. Telling them when you see the abomination of desolation, the great tribulation is eminent. So the great tribulation was to happen in their life time. Not at a distant future date. He would have used "them" or "they" instead of "you" in that case.

Another way to say it would be, when y'all see the abomination......the great tribulation begins.
 
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101G

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The disciple asked three questions of the Lord in Matthews 24.

Matt 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Three question.
.the great tribulation begins? Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken".
 
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Vexatious

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Notice the embarrassing reasoning of a pretribber: "The Antichrist cannot take TOTAL CONTROL until the church is removed [therefor the saints must be raptured first.]"

The Bible does't say a future Antichrist will take total control. If you're going to make up lies as the foundation of your argument, you have no argument. A valid argument starts facts and then follows logic to the conclusion. For example:

Factual premise (a direct biblical quote): "After that tribulation... he will send out the angels and gather his elect."
Logical conclusion: The elect are on earth after the tribulation and therefor they weren't raptured prior.
 

Vexatious

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Another problem is with the audience in Matthew 24 whom Jesus speaks to. Telling them when you see the abomination of desolation, the great tribulation is eminent. So the great tribulation was to happen in their life time. Not at a distant future date. He would have used "them" or "they" instead of "you" in that case.

Another way to say it would be, when y'all see the abomination......the great tribulation begins.

Jesus said there would be tribulation that is great. Jesus talked about what Christians would face, which is great tribulation before the abomination of desolation (the Roman armies). After the Romans surrounded the city, then destruction of the city and temple was imminent. I don't see any reason to limit the application of the term "tribulation" to just after the Roman armies show up.

Yes, everything Jesus said about the tribulation stands in testimony against and condemnation of pretribber doctrine. Jesus was talking to his disciples, telling them, "you", what would happen to them and what they need to do. Jesus wasn't referring to a third party or a future generation. Pretibbers need a grammar lesson, if not an exorcism.
 
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CoreIssue

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Notice the embarrassing reasoning of a pretribber: "The Antichrist cannot take TOTAL CONTROL until the church is removed [therefor the saints must be raptured first.]"

The Bible does't say a future Antichrist will take total control. If you're going to make up lies as the foundation of your argument, you have no argument. A valid argument starts facts and then follows logic to the conclusion. For example:

Factual premise (a direct biblical quote): "After that tribulation... he will send out the angels and gather his elect."
Logical conclusion: The elect are on earth after the tribulation and therefor they weren't raptured prior.

The AC cannot take control is not a pretrib believes. The AC cannot be revealed until the holy spirit is removed, which requires the removal of the Church.

Stop misquoting and misrepresenting. Get your facts straight.

The verse says Israel will be gathered, not Church.

Isaiah 11:12 New International Version (NIV)
12 He will raise a banner for the nations
and gather the exiles of Israel;
he will assemble the scattered people of Judah
from the four quarters of the earth.

Do your homework before sproutting error.
 

101G

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a GENERATION in the bible can be a ye, (present tense to the hearer, but future application) and not nesseary an audiance reverent event.

another example,
Matt 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Matt 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
(Them here is audiance reverent)

Matt 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Matt 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Matt 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Notice the ye, in these verses, now this,
Matt 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

here the second "ye" is a "GENERATION" of evil doers, your father the devil. just like Cain, his father the devil, meaning in characteristic.

that's why we are called the Sons of God because we act, or well suppose to act like God.
Son:
G5207, huios
primarily signifies the relation of offspring to parent, It is often used metaphorically of prominent moral characteristics
my source Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

just like our Lord, the title Son do not refere to biology, but to character, or characteristics
 

Rollo Tamasi

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Most Christians do not seem to understand the biblical necessity of a Pretribulation Rapture. But a proper study of the whole Bible confirms that it is a divine necessity. Here are the reasons why it is necessary for the Church (the children of God on earth, Jews and Gentiles in one Body) to be taken out, and taken up to Heaven, before the reign of the Antichrist, and the Tribulation and Great Tribulation which are connected to his reign.

1. The Antichrist cannot take TOTAL CONTROL of the earth until and unless the Church (indwelt by the Holy Spirit) and the Holy Spirit Himself are “taken out of the way”. The Holy Spirit is the Divine Restrainer of Satan and the Antichrist. See 2 Thessalonians 2.

2. The Tribulation is primarily an expression of the wrath of Satan against the Jews, and particularly against the believing remnant of Jews (Daniel 12 and Revelation 12). This is called “the time of Jacob’s trouble” and has nothing to do with the Church. At the same time, God begins to pour out His judgments upon the earth. There are seven trumpet judgments, and the first six belong to this period. Revelation 8-13.

3. It is the Antichrist who sets up the Abomination of Desolation in the future temple at Jerusalem. This is called “the image of the Beast” in Revelation 13. And all those who refuse to worship this image are beheaded. These are the Tribulation saints (primarily Jews), since the whole Church is certainly not beheaded.

4. It is the Abomination of Desolation which triggers the Great Tribulation on earth (see Matthew 24). The seventh trumpet judgment belongs to this period (Revelation 14-18). While that is happening on earth, the saints are all in Heaven for two reasons: (1) attendance at the Judgment Seat of Christ, in order to have their works judged, and to receive their rewards (2 Corinthians 5:10 and other passages) and (2) attendance at the Marriage of the Lamb as the Bride of Christ (Revelation 19). The Church is not only the Body and Building of Christ, but also the Bride of Christ, and unless the Marriage of the Lamb is accomplished, the Lord will not return to earth with His saints and angels (Revelation 19).

5. The Tribulation is during the first half of Daniel’s 70th week (3 ½ years) while the Great Tribulation (also called the Day of the Lord) is during the second half of this week of years (3 ½ years, less some months). This entire period has nothing to do with the Church, and corresponds to Revelation 6-18. And it is significant that in these chapters of Revelation there is no mention of “church” “the church” or “churches”.
Foolishness
The rapture doctrine has already died, and about time
 

Vexatious

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The AC cannot take control is not a pretrib believes.

"The Antichrist cannot take TOTAL CONTROL" is an exact quote of the OP, your fellow pretrib cultist. Also, your objection, "the AC cannot be revealed until the holy spirit is removed", makes no difference. Repent of your pretrib beliefs.
 

CoreIssue

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"The Antichrist cannot take TOTAL CONTROL" is an exact quote of the OP, your fellow pretrib cultist. Also, your objection, "the AC cannot be revealed until the holy spirit is removed", makes no difference. Repent of your pretrib beliefs.

I don't care what the OP said. That is not Pre Trib belief nor mine for over 40 years.

Big difference.

Sorry, what are you, Hisoricist or Amil?
 

VictoryinJesus

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those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken

Revelation 6:12-13
[12] And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; [13] And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty (east)wind.
 

Enoch111

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Where is the scripture that plainly states that God will take His people to heaven?? We never see it, because it isn't there!
You would not believe it even after I show it to you, so watch what happens when I quote the Scriptures. YOU WILL DODGE THEM.

ALL THE SAINTS WHO PASSED ON ARE ALREADY IN HEAVEN
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, [WHERE COULD THE HEAVENLY JERUSALEM BE EXCEPT IN HEAVEN?]
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, [THE NT SAINTS] and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, [THE OT SAINTS]
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

So who all are in Heaven right now? (Heb 12:22-24)
1. an innumerable company of angels
2. the general assembly and church of the firstborn
3. God the Judge of all
4. the spirits of just men made perfect
5. Jesus the mediator of the new covenant
6. The blood oF sprinkling (the blood of Christ)


ALL THE SAINTS AT THE RAPTURE WILL BE IN HEAVEN (John 14)
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


So let's make this EXTREMELY ELEMENTARY:
1. Is Jesus God? Absolutely
2. Can we therefore believe Him without the shadow of a doubt? Absolutely
3. Is "my Father's house" Heaven (God's Heaven)? Absolutely
Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. (Mt 6:9)
4. Does Jesus promise mansions in the New Jerusalem to God's children? Absolutely (translating them as *rooms* is an insult, when the New Jerusalem is a cubic city 1500 CUBIC MILES in dimension).
5. Did Jesus go to Heaven at His ascension? Absolutely
So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. (Mk 16:19)
6. Did Jesus solemnly promise to go and prepare a place for God's children in Heaven? Absolutely
7. Did Jesus also promise to personally return for His saints? Absolutely
8. Did Jesus promise to receive us "unto Himself" (as the Bridegroom the Bride)? Absolutely
9. So if Jesus is in Heaven, will all the saints be with Him in Heaven? Absolutely.

We could further ask if Enoch and Elijah and Stephen went to Heaven, and the answer would be: absolutely.

In view of these Scriptures, if anyone denies that the eternal home of the saints is in the New Jerusalem in Heaven, he or she is REJECTING GOD'S WORD.
 

Mayflower

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I do believe in the rapture. I can't wait!!!! When? It is an interesting read, but I'd rather just hope for a pre trib and deal with a mid trib or survivor trib when it happens. I will trust in my Father and obey His commandments. And make my mind up now that beheading would be an amazing way to die in honor of my Lord. Though I'd rather not, because it would be painful...pestilence and famines, and sword do not sound very nice either. So here is to not choosing the time, but hoping that I am in Heaven before Tribulation comes to pass. If not, BRING IT ON, I am a child of the most High God.
 
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farouk

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I do believe in the rapture. I can't wait!!!! When? It is an interesting read, but I'd rather just hope for a pre trib and deal with a mid trib or survivor trib when it happens. I will trust in my Father and obey His commandments. And make my mind up now that beheading would be an amazing way to die in honor of my Lord. Though I'd rather not, because it would be painful...pestilence and famines, and sword do not sound very nice either. So here is to not choosing the time, but hoping that I am in Heaven before Tribulation comes to pass. If not, BRING IT ON, I am a child of the most High God.
"Amen: come, Lord Jesus" (Revelation 22). :)
 
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VictoryinJesus

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23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, [THE NT SAINTS] and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, [THE OT SAINTS]

Hebrews 11:40
[40] God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

“...and to the spirits of just men made perfect.” (In Christ)

Hebrews 12:1
[1] Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us , and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Acts 1:9
[9] And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Mark 16:19
[19] So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

“...that where I am, there you may be also.” He returns the same way He left ...with a cloud of witnesses. Romans 8:16-19 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: [17] And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him , that we may be also glorified together. [18] For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. [19] For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Of course many others read it differently so it is just an opinion.

Exodus 10:21-23
[21] And the Lord said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt. [22] And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days: [23] They saw not one another, neither rose any from his place for three days: but all the children of Israel had light in their dwellings.
 
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CoreIssue

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Another problem is with the audience in Matthew 24 whom Jesus speaks to. Telling them when you see the abomination of desolation, the great tribulation is eminent. So the great tribulation was to happen in their life time. Not at a distant future date. He would have used "them" or "they" instead of "you" in that case.

Another way to say it would be, when y'all see the abomination......the great tribulation begins.
It did not say in their lifetimes.

1000 years the day unto the lord.

The day of the lord will last at least 1000 years.

A road map of future history was also laid out for what had to happen before the rapture happened. That involved a lot of centuries.
 

Naomi25

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Most Christians do not seem to understand the biblical necessity of a Pretribulation Rapture. But a proper study of the whole Bible confirms that it is a divine necessity. Here are the reasons why it is necessary for the Church (the children of God on earth, Jews and Gentiles in one Body) to be taken out, and taken up to Heaven, before the reign of the Antichrist, and the Tribulation and Great Tribulation which are connected to his reign.

1. The Antichrist cannot take TOTAL CONTROL of the earth until and unless the Church (indwelt by the Holy Spirit) and the Holy Spirit Himself are “taken out of the way”. The Holy Spirit is the Divine Restrainer of Satan and the Antichrist. See 2 Thessalonians 2.
While it is true that this verse says that the Day of the Lord will not come until the Man of Lawlessness is revealed, it does not specifiy that the Holy Spirit is the restrainer. Nor does it state that it is, specifically, the Holy Spirit within the Church, which must be removed. This, unfortunately, is a bit of a 'leap-frog' conclusion. "It has to be the HS, which means it has to be the HS in the Church". Well, no...it doesn't say that.
Find me somewhere else...anywhere else, that gives leave to think the HS is this restrainer that is talked about. The fact that most theologians (even Dispensationalist ones if they're honest, and many of them are) will say that no one can be sure who the Restrainer is.
That makes this an assumption. At best.

2. The Tribulation is primarily an expression of the wrath of Satan against the Jews, and particularly against the believing remnant of Jews (Daniel 12 and Revelation 12). This is called “the time of Jacob’s trouble” and has nothing to do with the Church. At the same time, God begins to pour out His judgments upon the earth. There are seven trumpet judgments, and the first six belong to this period. Revelation 8-13.
Is there some reason Satan cannot rage against the Jews while the Church is still here? He did it just fine in Germany. We can even say that the judgement that came against the Jews (be it ultimately from God) in 70AD was also seen while the Church was here. In fact, there is not really a time in history when the Jews have not been 'troubled'. So why must we believe that the Church "has to" be gone? Where does it say, specifically, that this can only take place once the Church has "left the building", so to speak?


3. It is the Antichrist who sets up the Abomination of Desolation in the future temple at Jerusalem. This is called “the image of the Beast” in Revelation 13. And all those who refuse to worship this image are beheaded. These are the Tribulation saints (primarily Jews), since the whole Church is certainly not beheaded.
No...certainly not the whole Church. But what of all the Church members today that have been? Do they not count? Does it only count when the Church leaves, then the name changes to 'Saints' for this to have special, "Revelation" meaning?
Of course not. Believers who are killed for their faith, beheaded...martyred, because they loved their Lord more than food, or commerce, or popularity, or bending knee to worldly government, all have the same status in heaven. The insistance on a line of demarcation that separates is both confusing, and not found in scripture.
One people, One second coming. If you want to see my cards, I've laid them out (with biblical verses) in the thread "Amillennialism". Which I fully recognise might give you an eye twitch to have to wade through, but it's there if you want to torment yourself!

4. It is the Abomination of Desolation which triggers the Great Tribulation on earth (see Matthew 24). The seventh trumpet judgment belongs to this period (Revelation 14-18). While that is happening on earth, the saints are all in Heaven for two reasons: (1) attendance at the Judgment Seat of Christ, in order to have their works judged, and to receive their rewards (2 Corinthians 5:10 and other passages) and (2) attendance at the Marriage of the Lamb as the Bride of Christ (Revelation 19). The Church is not only the Body and Building of Christ, but also the Bride of Christ, and unless the Marriage of the Lamb is accomplished, the Lord will not return to earth with His saints and angels (Revelation 19).
I'm not sure how you manage to connect, timewise, the 7th trumpet with Matt 24, although I'm sure you'll tell me.
Also...where does it say that the Judgement seat is happening at the same time that everything else is playing out on earth? The passages I read tell me that Judgement comes when Christ does, for that is when he sits on his throne in judgement, but any call on what is happening in the background is pure speculation, and again, assumption.

And as far as "having to be in heaven for the Marriage Supper, or else Christ can't come back (Rev19)"...there's a bit of a problem, because as we see he's already been described as coming back in Rev 6:15–17, Rev 11:15-18 and Rev 16:17–20 as well as in Chapter 19. Chapter 19 is, indeed the "Grand Hurrah!" The full detail, what we would like to call the full picture. But all those other occasions have also described his return. His triumph over his enemies and his wrath upon them at his coming, his Kingdom beginning as he sets up his perfect reign. These are undoubtably details of his 2nd Coming.
So that puts just a little bit different look on how we think about the story of Revelation, and what must be taking place where.
Indeed, I don't think your timeline can be proven.

5. The Tribulation is during the first half of Daniel’s 70th week (3 ½ years) while the Great Tribulation (also called the Day of the Lord) is during the second half of this week of years (3 ½ years, less some months). This entire period has nothing to do with the Church, and corresponds to Revelation 6-18. And it is significant that in these chapters of Revelation there is no mention of “church” “the church” or “churches”.
Why is it significant? Is it significant that the word Saint is also used throughout the NT multiple times? You would think that if it held special meaning to the time of the end, and the believers then, they would have reserved the word for then, and kept using 'Church' in the NT.
I think it more likely that while the bulk of the NT is talking to the body, corporately, and therefore the word 'Church' is appropriate, in Revelation the message and picture being painted is very personal. It talks to us individualy as Christians, and we are, in our walk, to persevere throughout whatever life throws at us. Yes we have responsibilites as Church members, but we also have responsibilities as Saints. We stand against the evil that comes against our very souls. And we, ourselves, will stand before the throne.
Revelation is a personal book, timely for each and every 'Saint' as we struggle against this present darkness.
I don't think the absence of a word proves the presence of the Pre-Trib Rapture. I think it proves that God see us all individually. Each and every Saint who struggles. And I suggest that that is the more natural reading.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Naomi, I am addressing the first part of your post. (Haven't read the entire op yet, just the first part that you address of it.)

I f it isn't God who restrains the man of lawlessness/AC, who do they think "he who restrains" might be?
 
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Dave L

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It did not say in their lifetimes.

1000 years the day unto the lord.

The day of the lord will last at least 1000 years.

A road map of future history was also laid out for what had to happen before the rapture happened. That involved a lot of centuries.
Jesus warned the disciples "when you" see these things. Second person, plural, present tense. Also it happened in their life time as spoken.
 
D

Dave L

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Jesus said there would be tribulation that is great. Jesus talked about what Christians would face, which is great tribulation before the abomination of desolation (the Roman armies). After the Romans surrounded the city, then destruction of the city and temple was imminent. I don't see any reason to limit the application of the term "tribulation" to just after the Roman armies show up.

Yes, everything Jesus said about the tribulation stands in testimony against and condemnation of pretribber doctrine. Jesus was talking to his disciples, telling them, "you", what would happen to them and what they need to do. Jesus wasn't referring to a third party or a future generation. Pretibbers need a grammar lesson, if not an exorcism.
AD 70 was the great Jewish Tribulation. From then on we see Christian tribulation up until the end of the world. People confuse the two groups and out pops Hal Lindsey.