The biblical necessity of a Pretribulation Rapture

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CoreIssue

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Who suffered in AD 70? The Jews, the Christians all escaped. Who suffers throughout church history under Antichrist? The Christians.

There was no seven year trip. The temple was torn down so no AOD was set up in it to stay there for 3 1/2 years.

The AC has not even come yet.

Everytime you say something is solidly biblical you fail to take into account that the bible has been subjected to man's interpretation of it's meaning.….so whose interpretation is correct? and don't say yours is because bible backs it up....because everyone here has posted scripture backing their interpretation up.

Well, you did not address of my points in your statement means all you say his opinion and thus not worth reading.
 
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Dave L

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There was no seven year trip. The temple was torn down so no AOD was set up in it to stay there for 3 1/2 years.

The AC has not even come yet.



Well, you did not address of my points in your statement means all you say his opinion and thus not worth reading.
Scripture does not support a 7 year tribulation.
 
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Dave L

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Revelations states two 3 and 1/2 year periods. The 70th week of Daniel is seven years. So yes, it firmly supports a seven year tribulation.
But this is a false interpretation based on a false gap in Daniel that scripture knows nothing about.
 

CoreIssue

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But this is a false interpretation based on a false gap in Daniel that scripture knows nothing about.
It states "week of years." There are 70 of them.

42 weeks, stated twice that for two different times is seven years.
1290 days stated twice is seven years.
Time, Times and a halftime twice are seven years.

That is not interpretation, that is what it says literally.
 

Helen

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Which means that you have NOT seriously studied the subject. It is far superior to "flying away". That is why it is called "translation".

By faith Enoch was translated* that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated* him: for before his translation* he had this testimony, that he pleased God. (Heb 11:5)

*Strong's Concordance
metatithémi: to transfer, change
Transliteration: metatithémi
Definition: to transfer, change


The Rapture of Enoch prefigures the Rapture of the saints, "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye", or in modern parlance "in a nanosecond". This is not "flying away", but a supernatural transfer from earth to Heaven.

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Cor 15:51,52)

I stand by what I wrote in post #49

Making your scripture quotes big and bold , does not magically make them mean what "you" claim them to mean!! We disagree.
 
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Vexatious

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What it shows is extreme Biblical ignorance on your part.

Instead of attacking pre trib explain what you believe will happen.

Explain what will happen? The AoD, the Roman army, surrounded Jerusalem, Christians fled as Jesus instructed, the Temple was destroyed and not one stone was left on top of another, within Jesus' generation, in the first century.

Pretribbers don't believe Bible, nor serve Christ.
 

Naomi25

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The restrainer has to be omipresent.

So the question to you is who else could it possibly be?
Why does he have to be omnipresent? Does the text state that? It just says that the restrainer is restraining the man of lawlessness. That would mean, by your way of thinking, that the man of lawlessness is also omnipiresent, if he NEEDS that to restrain him.
In Rev 20 it only takes an angel with a big key to lock away Satan. Why would it need something omnipresent for the antichrist?
 

Vexatious

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Scripture does not support a 7 year tribulation.

Regardless of scripture, the Jewish-Roman war that constituted the worst of the tribulation lasted seven years. Eliezar ben Hanania ordered an end to sacrifices in 66 AD to protest Roman taxation. Then the Jews then massacred 6,000 Roman troops. Jersalem was eventually surrounded, for a number of months, while Jews inside Jerusalem were insanely engaged in bit of a civil war. In 70 AD, Jerusalem's defenses collapsed and the Temple was destroyed. The war ended in 73 when the Jewish stronghold of Mesada fell.
 
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Heart2Soul

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There was no seven year trip. The temple was torn down so no AOD was set up in it to stay there for 3 1/2 years.

The AC has not even come yet.



Well, you did not address of my points in your statement means all you say his opinion and thus not worth reading.
so only you can express an opinion and the rest of us are limited to how we can reply? I tend to think most of your posts are of your opinion or you are posting links of others opinions....very hypocritical of you.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Why does he have to be omnipresent? Does the text state that? It just says that the restrainer is restraining the man of lawlessness. That would mean, by your way of thinking, that the man of lawlessness is also omnipiresent, if he NEEDS that to restrain him.
In Rev 20 it only takes an angel with a big key to lock away Satan. Why would it need something omnipresent for the antichrist?

This is confusing to me. It sounds like you're saying IF God has to be the restrainer of satan, it would necessarily mean that satan is omnipresent...? That's not logical to me...I get your valid point that maybe the restrainer isn't God, but the rest of it got confusing to me.

I asked earlier, (but I think I failed to quote you) if some believe the one who restrains is not God, who do they think the one who restrains is? By this post, I'm guessing some say the restrainer could be an angel that will be taken out of the way? Are there any other views on who he who restrains could be besides God or an angel?

One angel fought to get a message to a man for...was it 7 days? 14 days? Don't remember. Then another angel came and helped him and he...got through whatever resistance satan was giving. So he doesn't sound like he alone could restrain satan, and it does say the restrainer rather than the restrainers. So...I guess I'd lean more toward the restrainer being God. But that's just the way I would lean.

Then again, you have a valid point that in the future, one angel will bind satan. That angel would have to be stronger than satan to do that I guess. So maybe he's just a stronger angel than Michael...

I still lean toward the restrainer being God, but I can't be adamant about it when I'm not sure.
 
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CoreIssue

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Explain what will happen? The AoD, the Roman army, surrounded Jerusalem, Christians fled as Jesus instructed, the Temple was destroyed and not one stone was left on top of another, within Jesus' generation, in the first century.

Pretribbers don't believe Bible, nor serve Christ.
Explain what will happen? The AoD, the Roman army, surrounded Jerusalem, Christians fled as Jesus instructed, the Temple was destroyed and not one stone was left on top of another, within Jesus' generation, in the first century.

Pretribbers don't believe Bible, nor serve Christ.
You've covered 70AD. Now explain the 70th week of Daniel and the book of Revelations, which Matthew and also deals with. That you cannot.
 

CoreIssue

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so only you can express an opinion and the rest of us are limited to how we can reply? I tend to think most of your posts are of your opinion or you are posting links of others opinions....very hypocritical of you.
I simply pointed out what the bible says, which is not opinion.

You don't like me using links to list a lot of information without having to do a ton time of posting? That is stupid.
 

CoreIssue

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Why does he have to be omnipresent
Does the text state that? It just says that the restrainer is restraining the man of lawlessness. That would mean, by your way of thinking, that the man of lawlessness is also omnipiresent, if he NEEDS that to restrain him.
In Rev 20 it only takes an angel with a big key to lock away Satan. Why would it need something omnipresent for the antichrist?

2 Thessalonians 2
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessnessa]">[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed,

The Restrainer is restraining lawlessness everywhere. It does not mean all sin, but just the full power of lawlessness.

For Satan to operate in full power the holy spirit must be taken out of the way. And since he dwells in Christians, that means they have to go too.

Sin is everywhere, but it is not a person. Satan works everywhere through demons. That so he does not have to be omnipresent.

It does not say the angel restrained sin. The angel, obviously an archangel. restrained Satan.

The AC is restrained from being revealed and coming to power until the holy spirit is removed.
 

Keraz

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Instead of attacking pre trib explain what you believe will happen.
What the Bible prophets say will happen:
In one Day, the Lord will destroy His enemies by a CME sunstrike. This will be the Lord’s Day of vengeance and the Sixth Seal of Revelation. The Land of Greater Israel will be cleared and burned over. Ezekiel 20:47-48, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Jeremiah 4:26-28 Jeremiah 10:18 On that Day, His righteous people will trust completely in the Lord. They will settle into a regenerated and prosperous Land, as described in Ezekiel 36, Isaiah 35 ++

Ezekiel 34:11-31 For the Lord says: “Now I will take thought for My sheep [every true Christian, Rev 5:9-10] and search for them”. As a shepherd gathers his flock when they are lost, so I shall rescue them from all the places that they were scattered in a Day of cloud and darkness. I shall lead them out from the nations and gather them from all the places where they were scattered and bring them home to their own country.”
The pasture for My people is the Land of Israel. They will thrive and find rest there. I shall search for the lost, bandage the injured, strengthen the sick and give My flock the proper food.

Now, I shall judge between the fat sheep and the lean. You rams and goats, [bad leaders] have taken the best pastures and muddied the drinking water. Therefore I will save My flock and they will be ravaged no more. Zephaniah 3:1-8
I shall set over them My servant David he will care for them and will be their God. I shall make a covenant with them to ensure peace and prosperity. The Land will bear great crops of fruit and produce. When I rescue them from the power of their enemies, then they will know that I am the Lord.

Then they will know that I am with them and they are My people. You are My flock, that I feed and I am your God. Isaiah 62:1-5, Jeremiah 4:12-18, Hosea 3:1-5

His Christian people found and rescued from wherever they are after the ‘Day of cloud and darkness” - another description of the Lord’s Day of vengeance. They are brought home to their heritage, the holy Land. Ephesians 1:11, Acts 3:25 All of His people, no matter what their health or age, will thrive and find rest. But first, they will be judged and those priests and leaders who have led their flock astray will not enter the Land. Jeremiah 14:14-16
When His faithful Christian people are rescued – then they will know that; “I am with them and you are My people”. Not yet as a visible Presence, until the Return of Jesus.
 

CoreIssue

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What the Bible prophets say will happen:
In one Day, the Lord will destroy His enemies by a CME sunstrike. This will be the Lord’s Day of vengeance and the Sixth Seal of Revelation. The Land of Greater Israel will be cleared and burned over. Ezekiel 20:47-48, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Jeremiah 4:26-28 Jeremiah 10:18 On that Day, His righteous people will trust completely in the Lord. They will settle into a regenerated and prosperous Land, as described in Ezekiel 36, Isaiah 35 ++

Ezekiel 34:11-31 For the Lord says: “Now I will take thought for My sheep [every true Christian, Rev 5:9-10] and search for them”. As a shepherd gathers his flock when they are lost, so I shall rescue them from all the places that they were scattered in a Day of cloud and darkness. I shall lead them out from the nations and gather them from all the places where they were scattered and bring them home to their own country.”
The pasture for My people is the Land of Israel. They will thrive and find rest there. I shall search for the lost, bandage the injured, strengthen the sick and give My flock the proper food.


Now, I shall judge between the fat sheep and the lean. You rams and goats, [bad leaders] have taken the best pastures and muddied the drinking water. Therefore I will save My flock and they will be ravaged no more. Zephaniah 3:1-8
I shall set over them My servant David he will care for them and will be their God. I shall make a covenant with them to ensure peace and prosperity. The Land will bear great crops of fruit and produce. When I rescue them from the power of their enemies, then they will know that I am the Lord.

Then they will know that I am with them and they are My people. You are My flock, that I feed and I am your God. Isaiah 62:1-5, Jeremiah 4:12-18, Hosea 3:1-5

His Christian people found and rescued from wherever they are after the ‘Day of cloud and darkness” - another description of the Lord’s Day of vengeance. They are brought home to their heritage, the holy Land. Ephesians 1:11, Acts 3:25 All of His people, no matter what their health or age, will thrive and find rest. But first, they will be judged and those priests and leaders who have led their flock astray will not enter the Land. Jeremiah 14:14-16
When His faithful Christian people are rescued – then they will know that; “I am with them and you are My people”. Not yet as a visible Presence, until the Return of Jesus.
That is so far out there and would take way too long to correct you.
 

Naomi25

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This is confusing to me. It sounds like you're saying IF God has to be the restrainer of satan, it would necessarily mean that satan is omnipresent...? That's not logical to me...I get your valid point that maybe the restrainer isn't God, but the rest of it got confusing to me.

I asked earlier, (but I think I failed to quote you) if some believe the one who restrains is not God, who do they think the one who restrains is? By this post, I'm guessing some say the restrainer could be an angel that will be taken out of the way? Are there any other views on who he who restrains could be besides God or an angel?

One angel fought to get a message to a man for...was it 7 days? 14 days? Don't remember. Then another angel came and helped him and he...got through whatever resistance satan was giving. So he doesn't sound like he alone could restrain satan, and it does say the restrainer rather than the restrainers. So...I guess I'd lean more toward the restrainer being God. But that's just the way I would lean.

Then again, you have a valid point that in the future, one angel will bind satan. That angel would have to be stronger than satan to do that I guess. So maybe he's just a stronger angel than Michael...

I still lean toward the restrainer being God, but I can't be adamant about it when I'm not sure.

The Restrainer could very well be God. In fact, as God is sovereign over everything and has his hand and power over everything and all that will be done at that time, we could, in fact, say that ultimately it will be his power behind the Restrainer, be it an angel, or even the Church.
My point, in my first post, was that we just don't know who, specifically, "the Restrainer" is. Demanding it must: be the HS, and that for the HS to be 'removed' it has to be by the Church being 'taken off the planet' is a fairly massive follow on assumption that the text just doesn't have.
Could it be that....maybe. It doesn't outright say it's NOT that. But it most certianly doesn't say it either. Therefore I cannot get behind those that insist is HAS to be the HS in the Church...ie: the Rapture.
 
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Naomi25

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2 Thessalonians 2
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessnessa]">[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed,

The Restrainer is restraining lawlessness everywhere. It does not mean all sin, but just the full power of lawlessness.

Actually, it doesn't say that the Restrainer is restraining ALL lawlessness. The passage says that the power of lawlessness is already at work. The Restrainer is restraining it only to the level of the Man of Lawlessness to 'reveal' himself.

[3] Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, [4] who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. [5] Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? [6] And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. [7] For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. [8] And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. -2 Thessalonians 2:3–8


For Satan to operate in full power the holy spirit must be taken out of the way. And since he dwells in Christians, that means they have to go too.

I think you're missing a big chunk of the picture here. Mainly...The Holy Spirit is God. God, by nature, is omnipresent. Even if the Holy Spirit "left" this world within the Church, he would still be fully present here.
Also, being all-powerful God, the only way for Satan to operate "fully" is for God to 'let' him, not for God to be 'gone'.

Sin is everywhere, but it is not a person. Satan works everywhere through demons. That so he does not have to be omnipresent.
Not sure of your point here, sorry.

It does not say the angel restrained sin. The angel, obviously an archangel. restrained Satan.
Again, I'm not sure of your point about sin versus Satan or how it relates to the Antichrist and who the Restrainer might be.

The AC is restrained from being revealed and coming to power until the holy spirit is removed.

Again the assumption that the HS is the Restrainer. Where does it say it? Why does it HAVE to be the HS? What purpose would there be to remove the Church to 'remove the HS', if the HS is everywhere anyway? It becomes an additon to the text solely to insert a Rapture event that is desired. But the text doesn't say it. It just doesn't, and you really cannot make it say that, or even find any other texts that support that it must be the HS.
 

CoreIssue

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Actually, it doesn't say that the Restrainer is restraining ALL lawlessness. The passage says that the power of lawlessness is already at work. The Restrainer is restraining it only to the level of the Man of Lawlessness to 'reveal' himself.

[3] Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, [4] who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. [5] Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? [6] And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. [7] For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. [8] And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. -2 Thessalonians 2:3–8




I think you're missing a big chunk of the picture here. Mainly...The Holy Spirit is God. God, by nature, is omnipresent. Even if the Holy Spirit "left" this world within the Church, he would still be fully present here.
Also, being all-powerful God, the only way for Satan to operate "fully" is for God to 'let' him, not for God to be 'gone'.

No, I am not missing a big chunk. You're misunderstanding what I am saying, so I will try again.

When the second person of the Trinity took on flash he set aside his godly powers and writes. Meaning his spirit was still God, but did not exercise his powers as God. Instead, he functioned through is human flesh as a man.

The holy spirit, as restrainer, will move to the sideline as an observer, so to speak.

Hope that is clearer.


Not sure of your point here, sorry.

Sorry I was not clearer.



Again, I'm not sure of your point about sin versus Satan or how it relates to the Antichrist and who the Restrainer might be.

The easy one is a restrainer is not going to restrain himself if he is lawlessness. So if definitely not the AC.

Sin is the actions we take of our own accord and the prompting of demons. Satan promotes sin and wants to replace God. H once to destroy everything if he can't have it.






Again the assumption that the HS is the Restrainer. Where does it say it? Why does it HAVE to be the HS?

It simply cannot be anyone else.
What purpose would there be to remove the Church to 'remove the HS', if the HS is everywhere anyway?

The holy spirit is in us and working. He protects us, which he cannot do if on the sidelines.


It becomes an additon to the text solely to insert a Rapture event that is desired. But the text doesn't say it. It just doesn't, and you really cannot make it say that, or even find any other texts that support that it must be the HS.

It does say it.

What alternative do you have to be that the restrainer that fits all the criteria required?
 

Enoch111

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Actually, it doesn't say that the Restrainer is restraining ALL lawlessness.
It does not have to. The Restrainer (the Holy Spirit) is restraining the TOTAL CONTROL of the world's inhabitants by Satan and the Antichrist (the Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition) for 3 1/2 years. Study Revelation 13 to understand this.

Do you have any idea of the horrendous nature of the world when God removes all restraint, and Satan is on this earth in full control of every nation and individual (along with the Antichrist and the False Prophet)?