The Bodily Resurrection & Return Of Jesus, And Who Jesus Is In Islamic Eschatology

[lforrest]

trust me, Muslims do not need any well-meaning bigots help to find Jesus ok
Muhammad was very clear that Muslims must find Christ or be doomed
and see that this is where all the talk of compromising spiritual principles to make the Christian "church" bigger falls on its butt @lforrest .

Easter instead of Passover, Saturn-day over Sabbath-day, totally acceptable.
Muslims, bad

always from the same mouth of course

If 'Muslim' were juat a name, however it is not. They believe, or are supposed to believe, that Jesus is not the son of God. The baby jesus said as much according to the single witness of the angel claiming to be Gabriel.

 

[bbyrd009]

They believe, or are supposed to believe, that Jesus is not the son of God.

forrest we have the exact same argument among Christians, we argue all day every day about Jesus' Deity right, so idc if Muslims argue the same point in slightly different terms ok, if they are genuinely trying to follow Christ as they have been instructed by Muhammad to do, and i sure don't want to incite any Sabbath-ignoring, Saturnalia accepting believers to judging another man's servant, so i only meant to point out the hypocrisy here, i don't expect to win the argument ok. you win, Muslims are bad, and need your help to find Jesus

 

[lforrest]

forrest we have the exact same argument among Christians, we argue all day every day about Jesus' Deity right, so idc if Muslims argue the same point in slightly different terms ok, if they are genuinely trying to follow Christ as they have been instructed by Muhammad to do, and i sure don't want to incite any Sabbath-ignoring, Saturnalia accepting believers to judging another man's servant, so i only meant to point out the hypocrisy here, i don't expect to win the argument ok. you win, Muslims are bad, and need your help to find Jesus

It is for those who love the truth to decide these things for themselves. When you get angry for my pointing out inconsistencies it should reveal something about yourself.

 

[ScottA]

Jesus is the begotten Son of God and He was the Word in the beginning, He was the Word who was with God in the beginning, He was the Word that was made flesh.
Matthew Henry Commentary
1:1-5 The plainest reason why the Son of God is called the Word, seems to be, that as our words explain our minds to others, so was the Son of God sent in order to reveal his Father's mind to the world. What the evangelist says of Christ proves that he is God. He asserts, His existence in the beginning; His coexistence with the Father. The Word was with God. All things were made by him, and not as an instrument. Without him was not any thing made that was made, from the highest angel to the meanest worm. This shows how well qualified he was for the work of our redemption and salvation. The light of reason, as well as the life of sense, is derived from him, and depends upon him. This eternal Word, this true Light shines, but the darkness comprehends it not. Let us pray without ceasing, that our eyes may be opened to behold this Light, that we may walk in it; and thus be made wise unto salvation, by faith in Jesus Christ.

Question for you: If that which is seen was created by that which is unseen....then there is more substance in the unseen than the seen....the creation cannot be greater than the creator....All things.....without Him was not anything made that was made.....
Now cross-reference
Colossians 1:16 Context
13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

So does it seem plausible that Jesus the creator was fully able to interact with His creation since we are created in His image? So Jesus was able to manifest himself in the flesh, He is not created but the creator....the begotten Son, not the created son.

Thank you for expressing your thoughts. I do have a sense however, that with your question you are attempting to sell your idea, even to yourself, even though it is a question and not an answer, except that you have extrapolated it in your mind. But it is good that you have done so, that we can discuss it.

First, these things have answers and we need not speculate: Jesus is both Creator and created, both man and God, God's own atonement for the lost.

Is it "plausible that Jesus the creator was fully able to interact with His creation since we are created in His image?" It is not only plausible, but evident...as we have both given examples.

But the line of this whole thread has produced some things that just are not true, nevertheless, they are being preached as true. Such as the recent comment by you and TRU434 that a spirit must have a body to inhabit. This is not biblical, and I have given you the best example in Jesus, in hopes that you both will stop speculating and hear the truth from God. And that is just one little example of the errors being propagated in this thread - and this with lights and music and heartfelt comments - things that are just not biblical.

 

[ScottA]

The Bible is absolutely clear that Jesus will return to the earth. In this series I have put forth a case for Jesus returning in His physical body using scripture only, but it is up to you to do your own studying and allow the Holy Spirit to guide you to all truth. This should be the case for everything we hear or read. Below are some eschatological scriptures on the return of Jesus which I believe prove that He will return physically. Personally, I agree with many that we are the body of Christ in this dispensation of time, but I also believe Jesus will return to the earth at the appointed time to rule on the earth for a thousand years according to scripture. I respect all who do not have the same eschatological views as me, as stated previously we are all at different stages in our walk with Christ. And none of us know everything. If we are saved, we are brethren, therefore let us not allow Satan to use us to attack one another.

Behold, My Servant shall deal prudently;

He shall be exalted and extolled and be very high.
Just as many were astonished at you,
So His visage was marred more than any man,

And His form more than the sons of men;
So shall He sprinkle many nations.

Kings shall shut their mouths at Him;

For what had not been told them they shall see,

And what they had not heard they shall consider.
(Isaiah 52:13-15).

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,

And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;

The city shall be taken,

The houses rifled,

And the women ravished.

Half of the city shall go into captivity,

But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the Lord will go forth

And fight against those nations,

As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,

Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,

From east to west,

Making a very large valley;

Half of the mountain shall move toward the north

And half of it toward the south.
(Zechariah 14:1-4).

Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads. (Revelation 14:1).

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matthew 24:29-31).

Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. (Revelation 1:7).

“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves. (Zechariah 12:10-14).

“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ (Matthew 25:31-36).

Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them, but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept. “And at midnight a cry was heard: ‘Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet him!’ Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. (Matthew 25:3-7).

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (Revelation 20:4).

The attack(s) that are evident here are none other than that foretold by Jesus, of brother against bother and a child against their own parents. So don't be too bent out of shape. We should have expected this. Thus, I too suggest that we be wiser than the serpent and begin by understanding why Christ foretold such a fight. When Jesus faced the greatest conflict of His time, he said to those with Him, "Rise, let us be going." I suggest we do the same, and rather than retreating to the comfort of the known past and what we may have always heard or believed, that we instead press on to the prize by doing just as He said, by rising above the foretold difficulties. That is what He did.

But there are holes in the bits and pieces of our past knowledge and beliefs, just as there was with Israel. Let's not forget that the most learned of Jesus' time totally missed the bigger picture and the truth of Christ and all that was promised - and His own country men were against Him, just as we too are all arguing about what is written. But the order of the day is not what is written, but rather what is spiritually discerned from what is written, and also the outpouring of the spirit of God upon all flesh (both good and bad) foretold of our time by Joel the prophet. So we need to wade through much the same type of conflict, except that was physical, and this is spiritual - which is the order of our day.

Therefore, I argue for the spirit and against the flesh. For Christ has laid down His flesh ("It is finished"), and He has risen to the spiritual glory of the Father...for flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

So, hold to the past and join the crowd against the coming ascension while you wait upon the flesh...or listen to that still small voice and know that Christ is here...even now.

 

[bbyrd009]

Why do you persist in contending with the brethren?

have a nice day Mr Tru

 

[bbyrd009]

i was raised in the Mideast Mr Tru, you might consider your own advice, or at the very least judging another man's servant. i tell you that many will come from east and west and recline at the Lord's table, believing completely differently from our belief systems, Roman Centurions even, Samaritans, you name it. Yes, i know what you mean only too well

The Bible is absolutely clear that Jesus will return to the earth.

if only you could Quote that one single time, huh; "Jesus shuvu" or "Christ shuvu" in one, single place.
Should be everywhere, right, you should be able to Quote it ten, twenty times easy.

but turns out there are only two places you can Quote that Mr Tru,
and you are correct imo, the Bible is absolutely clear;
Return to Me, and I will return to you

 

[Enoch111]

I have a question....will Jesus bear the marks of His crucifixion forever and ever or will He get a glorified body after Satan is defeated once and for all?

It is the glorified and glorious body of Christ which bears the marks of His crucifixion. So the answer is that there will be no change in Christ. Satan does not control what God does or does not do.

 

[Enoch111]

Do you have the scriptures which state His glorified body bears the wounds please brother?

ZECHARIAH 13
1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness....

6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

Zechariah 13 looks back to Gethsemane and the Crucifixion, and then forward to the second coming of Christ and the redemption and restoration of the believing remnant of Israel.

The Lord Jesus Christ quoted Zech 13:7 and applied it to Himself, and how his disciples would all be scattered after He was taken captive in Gethsemane: Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad. (Mt 26:31)

Christ is the divine Shepherd here, and the one who smites Him (at the crucifixion) is God the Father who says: Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts...

Then we have the Scripture above it (v 6), which pertains to Israel and the house of David and inhabitants of Jerusalem at the second coming of Christ when this is said: And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

While Christ returns *with power and great glory* at His second coming, His finished work of redemption is eternal, hence those wounds are still in His hands in that glorified body (*a Lamb as it had been slain* -- Rev 5:6). And *the house of my friends* is clearly a reference to Israel, which should have welcomed Messiah at His first coming, but rejected Him. Yet Christ called them His friends, just as He called His betrayer Judas *friend*, and then prayed for His enemies at the cross, asking the Father to forgive them.

 

[Enoch111]

Jesus is both Creator and created, both man and God, God's own atonement for the lost.

This would have been theologically, logically, and biblically accurate had you said *Jesus is the Creator, therefore He cannot be a creature*.

 

[Enoch111]

I suppose my question should have been, do you believe His spiritual body bears the wounds or His physical resurrected body?

Since Scripture says (Phil 3:21) Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself, we should be able to take what is revealed in 1 Cor 15 and apply it to both our bodies (at the Resurrection-Rapture) and the glorious (physical) body of Christ.

Now Paul says It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Which means that the resurrected bodies are BOTH glorious and spiritual (in that they are free from human and earthly limitations). So Christ s body in Heaven is also both glorious and spiritual.

 

[Jay Ross]

Do you have the scriptures which state His glorified body bears the wounds please brother?

Perhaps the following two scriptures provides the answer that you are looking for: -

Matthew 26:29: - But I say unto you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it renewed with you in my Father's kingdom.

Revelation 21:5a: - Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things renewed."

Now Jesus in Matthew 26:29 is suggesting that He will not be renewed until the disciples are also renewed with Him.

In Revelation 21:1 we are also told that around the time of the GWTJ that God will make like new again all things.

The question that you are asking is, "Does this mean that the renewed form of our bodies also carry the scares of our respective times of tribulation?"
Somehow, I have the sense that we will not be bearing the scares of our times of tribulation, but whatever form our bodies may take, as Ephesians 4:24 tells us, even now is that we are to "put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness."

If we have put on the renewed spiritual man now, that does not rule out that when our bodies at the time of the GWTJ are remake that they will carry any imperfections in our bodies that will reflect the effects of the tribulation that we may suffer.

But, our present concerns of what our bodies look like at that time is a reflection of our vanity and not a fruit of our relationship with God.

Shalom

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I used the word 'glorified' rather than 'spiritual' by mistake. I too believe He will return bearing the wounds as shown in the series. I suppose my question should have been, do you believe His spiritual body bears the wounds or His physical resurrected body? Sorry for the confusion.

John was taken in spirit and shown in spirit the things of Revelation. He saw a lamb looking as if it had been slain...if that helps any.

I guess I think He will carry the scars of His love for us. But I wouldn't dream of getting into an argument over it.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

That's a fine way to understand it. We will see for sure one day.

 

[ScottA]

This would have been theologically, logically, and biblically accurate had you said *Jesus is the Creator, therefore He cannot be a creature*.

Your definition of "creature" is not biblically accurate. All things are manifest, even Christ.

 

[Enoch111]

Your definition of "creature" is not biblically accurate. All things are manifest, even Christ.

"All things are manifest" can mean anything you want it to mean. But it does not address the issue at hand.

Plain logic should tell you that the Creator cannot be the creature. That would be like saying that the sculptor is the sculpture! Totally absurd and bizarre.

Which means that you must stop suggesting or calling the Creator a creature. Which also means that Jesus is God. Period.

 

[ScottA]

"All things are manifest" can mean anything you want it to mean. But it does not address the issue at hand.

Plain logic should tell you that the Creator cannot be the creature. That would be like saying that the sculptor is the sculpture! Totally absurd and bizarre.

Which means that you must stop suggesting or calling the Creator a creature. Which also means that Jesus is God. Period.

By "plain logic" surely you mean worldly logic.

But that is not how it works. In fact without Christ being born just like any other man, He would not have qualified to fulfill the law of God for Salvation.

However, that is mostly another topic, and really what you are talking about is the Creator vs. created issue. Which is a misunderstanding of what anything or anyone "created" actually is. You see, when God said, "Let us create man in Our image"...He meant "image" - that is what everything and everyone who is created is...in the greater scheme of things - just an image. Likewise, if you held up a picture of the President and asked, "Who is this?" The correct answer is "It is the President" even though it is a mere image. But unlike photographs, God's chosen media, is space, time, matter, and yes, flesh, and blood. Virtual reality.

 

[Enoch111]

But that is not how it works. In fact without Christ being born just like any other man, He would not have qualified to fulfill the law of God for Salvation.

Was Christ born "just like any other man"? The Bible record shows that it is quite the opposite. Christ was born UNLIKE any other man who has ever been born.

The mystery of Godliness (1 Tim 3:16) is that Jesus was indeed a perfectly sinless Man and at the same time He was indeed God. He could not be the Savior of the world unless both things were true.

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God (Theos), which he hath purchased with his own blood. (Acts 20:28)

Who is this "God"(Theos) who purchased the Church with His own blood?

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (Theos)... And the Word was made flesh, [became a Man] and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (John 1:1,14)

 

[ScottA]

Was Christ born "just like any other man"?

Yes, and No. That's what I said.

But you are missing the main issue of how a son of man can be God (which I explained).

 

[Enoch111]

But you are missing the main issue of how a son of man can be God

The main issue is the exact opposite -- how can God become Man and continue to remain as God (Q) This is what really baffles you. Until you understand that with God ALL THINGS are possible.