The changing perception of hell. - How do you define it?

[Hillsage]

Yes, that's a good question, but I learned something interesting that seems to call this into question. Scientists here in my hometown of Edmonton did an experiment using rats or mire or something. Basically they taught the mice how to get out of a maze, and then the mice's offspring, also knew how to get out of the maze, without having learned it, proving that the memory of that maze is passed onto the next generation through their dna. They found that the memory lasted through seven generations. So if the memory becomes part of your dna, then does your dna go with you after death?

My opinion;

EXO 34:7 keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation."

Iniquity pertains to the spirit, transgression pertains to the soul (Yours and those around you; eg soul ties). And lastly, in the triune makeup of man, sin pertains to the flesh body.

A girl who received a heart transplant started having vivid dreams of a guy murdering her. They took a chance, went to cops, and found out the donor was murdered and the killer was never found. The girl described the murderer in her dreams and the cops artist the cops recognized the guy and he was the murderer. Now Aunty Jane can tell us why we shouldn't donate our blood or organs.

People who visit mediums and think that they are talking to former reincarnations of themselves don't know that at birth you receive two spirits. One from the devil which is a familiar spirit. And you receive one from God called a guardian angel which "their angels always behold the face of my Father " Matt 18:10.

When you die that familiar spirit is assigned to another human for their entire life and they know everything about them from conception (?) to death. They are evil spirits and the bible lists 17(?) different natured spirits by name.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Since God says this
Revelations 21:
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone:fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

What then is the “second death? It’s isn’t a second life, is it?
The ‘first death’ is the one we inherited from Adam….all inherit sin because of his bad decision, and because of sin, we all die (Rom 5:12)….so what is death, but the very opposite of life. We have no advantage over the animals in death (Eccl 3:19-20)…..we all breathe the same air, and die the same kind of death….but that was never supposed to be the case. Humans alone were offered a way to keep living without death ever taking our lives away.…”the tree of life” which was there in the garden to partake of only if the humans obeyed God’s command to refrain from eating of the TKGE. Access to the tree of life was taken away when the humans sinned….hence there was no way to keep living as sin overtook them all.

God promised his faithful ones a resurrection, which is contrary to the belief in an immortal soul, since in that belief, the soul never dies. You cannot resurrect someone who is not dead.

So the second death is the one from which no one can return. It is a death that is permanent, as if that one had never existed. They will never see life again….but only God knows who is in “hades” and who is in “Gehenn, both erroneously translated as “hell” In most Bibles.

Mark 9:44
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Here Jesus is describing “Gehenna” which was a literal place well known to his Jewish audience…it was Jerusalem’s garbage dump where the bodies of dead animals and often executed criminals were cast for disposal. Someone not considered worthy of a decent burial, was considered not worthy of a resurrection either, having no final resting place with their name and lineage inscribed, it was basically saying God would not remember them in the resurrection.
The fires were kept burning day and night by the addition of brimstone (sulfur) and what the flames missed, the maggots finished off so this is what Jesus was describing. There was no ‘life after death’ ever taught in Jewish scripture, therefore Jesus would never have taught such a thing.
God was not a torturer who enjoyed the suffering of the wicked….he has no pleasure even in their death, but for the sake of the righteous, he must take them away from influencing others, as satan did in the beginning.

Why do we try to diminish what the word has said about living for God and the consequence of NOT believing the truth !

That is the trouble…..the word about the consequences was embellished to begin with, inventing places for immortal souls to go! There never was an “immortal soul”, and there never was a fiery “hell”…..these are satanic lies that crept into all false worship.
God is not like that, as we saw in the personality of Jesus. He desires all to attain to repentance….but realistically, he knows that the majority will not pass the judgment that is coming. (2 Pet 3:9) Our choices are ours to make of our own free will….all of us will ultimately be caught in the act of being our true selves…..

 

[L.A.M.B.]

What then is the “second death? It’s isn’t a second life, is it?
The ‘first death’ is the one we inherited from Adam….all inherit sin because of his bad decision, and because of sin, we all die (Rom 5:12)….so what is death, but the very opposite of life. We have no advantage over the animals in death (Eccl 3:19-20)…..we all breathe the same air, and die the same kind of death….but that was never supposed to be the case. Humans alone were offered a way to keep living without death ever taking our lives away.…”the tree of life” which was there in the garden to partake of only if the humans obeyed God’s command to refrain from eating of the TKGE. Access to the tree of life was taken away when the humans sinned….hence there was no way to keep living as sin overtook them all.

God promised his faithful ones a resurrection, which is contrary to the belief in an immortal soul, since in that belief, the soul never dies. You cannot resurrect someone who is not dead.

So the second death is the one from which no one can return. It is a death that is permanent, as if that one had never existed. They will never see life again….but only God knows who is in “hades” and who is in “Gehenn, both erroneously translated as “hell” In most Bibles.

Here Jesus is describing “Gehenna” which was a literal place well known to his Jewish audience…it was Jerusalem’s garbage dump where the bodies of dead animals and often executed criminals were cast for disposal. Someone not considered worthy of a decent burial, was considered not worthy of a resurrection either, having no final resting place with their name and lineage inscribed, it was basically saying God would not remember them in the resurrection.
The fires were kept burning day and night by the addition of brimstone (sulfur) and what the flames missed, the maggots finished off so this is what Jesus was describing. There was no ‘life after death’ ever taught in Jewish scripture, therefore Jesus would never have taught such a thing.
God was not a torturer who enjoyed the suffering of the wicked….he has no pleasure even in their death, but for the sake of the righteous, he must take them away from influencing others, as satan did in the beginning.

That is the trouble…..the word about the consequences was embellished to begin with, inventing places for immortal souls to go! There never was an “immortal soul”, and there never was a fiery “hell”…..these are satanic lies that crept into all false worship.
God is not like that, as we saw in the personality of Jesus. He desires all to attain to repentance….but realistically, he knows that the majority will not pass the judgment that is coming. (2 Pet 3:9) Our choices are ours to make of our own free will….all of us will ultimately be caught in the act of being our true selves…..

We do not believe nor see the scriptures the same so I'll pray we remain at peace while here.

 

[Aunty Jane]

My opinion;

EXO 34:7 keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation."

Iniquity pertains to the spirit, transgression pertains to the soul (Yours and those around you; eg soul ties). And lastly, in the triune makeup of man, sin pertains to the flesh body

Your explanation does not fit the scripture you quoted. You again drift off into your own interpretation….
What “triune makeup of man” is spoken about in the Bible?

Please don’t cite 1 Thess 5:23 as this is speaking collectively about the body of Christ…the entire group of believers, not individuals within that body.

A girl who received a heart transplant started having vivid dreams of a guy murdering her. They took a chance, went to cops, and found out the donor was murdered and the killer was never found. The girl described the murderer in her dreams and the cops artist the cops recognized the guy and he was the murderer. Now Aunty Jane can tell us why we shouldn't donate our blood or organs.

The demons like to play games with those who believe in immortal souls and supernatural things of this sort…..like the spirit mediums, these are calling up demons who know all about every one of us past and present, and can masquerade as anyone they choose through those who possess such a spirit of divination.
These stories do not ring true as coming from God but are just the fulfillment of 2 Cor 11:14-15.

But “abstaining from blood” is an easy one to answer…..the taking of “any sort of blood” into one’s body by any means is against God’s law…first given to Noah, (Genesis 9:1-6) and again in God’s law to Israel it is repeated, (Lev 17:10-14) and again to the (mainly Gentile) Christians. (Acts 15:28-29)
For this one command to be repeated in all eras, must mean that it is important to God.
”the life (soul) of the flesh is in the blood” (Lev 17:11) That is why Jesus‘ blood was so important for salvation.

Just to be clear it is only blood that the Bible says to refrain from…organ transplants are a conscience issue for the individual to make. We do not judge our brothers with regard to such matters, it is between them and God.

People who visit mediums and think that they are talking to former reincarnations of themselves don't know that at birth you receive two spirits. One from the devil which is a familiar spirit. And you receive one from God called a guardian angel which "their angels always behold the face of my Father " Matt 18:10.

Well, that is one way to read that scripture….which says…
“See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I tell you that their angels in heaven always look upon the face of my Father who is in heaven.“

Who are these ”little ones” that Jesus is referring to?
In Heb 1:14 Paul says of the angels….
”Are they not all spirits for holy service, sent out to minister for those who are going to inherit salvation?”

So yes, there are angels watching over those “little ones” who are immature Christians not having fully matured in the faith as yet, but once we have matured, it is our strong faith alone that will motivate the strength of character and good works that we should be known for.

But where do you find the concept that you outlined here about a “familiar spirit” “from the devil”? This is not scriptural….did you make that up?

When you die that familiar spirit is assigned to another human for their entire life and they know everything about them from conception (?) to death. They are evil spirits and the bible lists 17(?) different natured spirits by name.

This too is an invention of your imagination, stated as though it was gospel truth….I cannot find such a concept in the Bible at all….where are these 17 spirits by name?

Sorry, not worth even 1c.

 

[Hillsage]

Your explanation does not fit the scripture you quoted. You again drift off into your own interpretation….
What “triune makeup of man” is spoken about in the Bible?

EXO 34:7 keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation."

And YOUR CORRECT INTERPRETATION refuting my studied opinion of this verse was NOTHING, ZERO, NADA.

So, please 'do share' your interpretation of just exactly what the difference is between an Iniquity, transgression and sin?
All three of which needed Forgiveness from JEHOVAH. The name of your confessed God ....but not mine.

Please don’t cite 1 Thess 5:23 as this is speaking collectively about the body of Christ…the entire group of believers, not individuals within that body.

Why not? The whole body of Christ is triune, but the individual isn't? Weill, not from your understqanding anyway. Sorry, I believe in triune God and triune man. Your opinion has been argued for a long time and it is still loosing.

HEB 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of SOUL and SPIRIT, of joints and marrow, (eg. BODY) and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Just because your theological SWORD isn't sharp enough to make that division , doesn't mean scripture is plain enough for most of us to see the division above.

But “abstaining from blood” is an easy one to answer…..the taking of “any sort of blood” into one’s body by any means is against God’s law…first given to Noah, (Genesis 9:1-6) and again in God’s law to Israel it is repeated, (Lev 17:10-14) and again to the (mainly Gentile) Christians. (Acts 15:28-29)
For this one command to be repeated in all eras, must mean that it is important to God.
”the life (soul) of the flesh is in the blood” (Lev 17:11) That is why Jesus‘ blood was so important for salvation. ........organ transplants are a conscience issue for the individual to make. We do not judge our brothers with regard to such matters, it is between them and God..

"Easy to answer" you say? Unfortunately for JW, your theogy is just 'not consistent' and 'that' is TRUE. "any sort of blood" "by ANY means" ,YOU SAY? Since you aren't a DOCTOR and I am, let me share a point with you. Donor ORGANS have BLOOD in them. So when you receive/give an organ, your theological POV kind of suffers consistency.....from my POV.

Well, that is one way to read that scripture….which says…
“See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I tell you that their angels in heaven always look upon the face of my Father who is in heaven.“

Who are these ”little ones” that Jesus is referring to?
In Heb 1:14 Paul says of the angels….
”Are they not all spirits for holy service, sent out to minister for those who are going to inherit salvation?”

So yes, there are angels watching over those “little ones” who are immature Christians not having fully matured in the faith as yet, but once we have matured, it is our strong faith alone that will motivate the strength of character and good works that we should be known for.

I'm sorry but 'consistency' is just a jewel your theology still needs to search for.
Heb. says "minister tho those who are going to "inherit Salvation" or GET SAVED. It does not say 'get mature in the faith'. That's just religious indoctrination.

The ONLY salvation you inherit BECAUSE SOMEONE DIED...is the salvation of your spirit because JESUS DIED to give you a new spirit. "The spirit of Christ IN YOU." A mystery to the JW faith apparently.

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27* To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

But where do you find the concept that you outlined here about a “familiar spirit” “from the devil”? This is not scriptural….did you make that up?

This too is an invention of your imagination, stated as though it was gospel truth….I cannot find such a concept in the Bible at all….where are these 17 spirits by name?

Sorry, not worth even 1c.

Uhh read the bible verse I just shared;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:


Aunty, EVERYTHING TRUE ISN'T NECESSARILY WRITTEN in a book with a beginning and end describing a GOD which has neither

1CO 2:9 But, as it is written, "What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what God has prepared...."
10 God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.
11 For what person knows a man's thoughts except the spirit of the man which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might understand ......

Maybe you need a little bit more "spirit'" than you believe in, like some of US in the church believe.

Do you have a prayer language? I do.

Have you ever seen a demon manifest? I have. First time it was an eye the size of a volleyball on the wall of the basement...at age 4. The same age that my granddaughter (2nd generation) saw the same INIQUITOUS spirit on the wall of a room in my office.

Have you ever cast out demons? I have, then the pastor asked me to start a deliverance ministry which I did....and led for 2 years. Too many testimonies to share.

Have you ever physically 'heard' a demon talk to you? I have.

Have you ever been 'physically' touched/grabbed by a demon? I have.

I'll just end there. We overcome by the blood and our testimony. Please share a supernatural testimony from your spiritual bag.

BTW, I am not 'thinking more highly of myself than I OUGHT....IMO. Neither am I thinking more LOWLY than I ought.....IMO.

 

[Freedm]

My opinion;

A girl who received a heart transplant started having vivid dreams of a guy murdering her. They took a chance, went to cops, and found out the donor was murdered and the killer was never found. The girl described the murderer in her dreams and the cops artist the cops recognized the guy and he was the murderer. Now Aunty Jane can tell us why we shouldn't donate our blood or organs.

That is very interesting and an important clue. It further proves that memories are part of your DNA, and when that DNA is passed on to another person, so are the memories. I've seen several stories retold about people who have vivid memories of past lives. It would make sense if those were memories of ancestors.

 

[Aunty Jane]

EXO 34:7 keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation."

And YOUR CORRECT INTERPRETATION refuting my studied opinion of this verse was NOTHING, ZERO, NADA.

So, please 'do share' your interpretation of just exactly what the difference is between an Iniquity, transgression and sin?

“Iniquity” (ʿāôn) H5771 Strongs Concordance…..is guilt deserving of punishment, as it is used in other verses, such as Lev 5:17…
“Now if a person sins and does any of the things which the LORD has commanded not to be done, though he was unaware, still he is guilty and shall bear his punishment. H5771” A result of sinning.

“Transgression” (pešaʿ) H6588 Strongs….means transgression or rebellion. Sinful acts.

“Sin” (ḥaṭṭā'āṯ) H2403 Strongs….is any action in contravention to the laws of God. It literally means missing or not reaching a goal, way, mark, or right point, which can also be applied to the sin born in us as inherited from our first parents….so what is the great difference in these three words…not a great deal that I can determine. The Bible often uses expressions three times for emphasis…..all of the above are about punishable sin. Did Israel ever get the message?

All three of which needed Forgiveness from JEHOVAH. The name of your confessed God ....but not mine.

Duly noted.

The whole body of Christ is triune, but the individual isn't? Weill, not from your understqanding anyway. Sorry, I believe in triune God and triune man. Your opinion has been argued for a long time and it is still loosing.

The whole body is harmonious, “body soul and spirit”, which means no divisions or dissension, the supposed threesome you single out has no real meaning supported by the rest of scripture. My opinion is as valid as yours…..God knows who has the truth….so we will let him decide who he is…and how many of him there are…..shall we?

HEB 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of SOUL and SPIRIT, of joints and marrow, (eg. BODY) and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Just because your theological SWORD isn't sharp enough to make that division , doesn't mean scripture is plain enough for most of us to see the division above.

If the “soul and the spirit“ can be divided like “joints and their marrow”, then there is plainly a difference between the two. Just as joints and their marrow are not the same, neither is the soul and spirit…..isn’t that true doc? Just reading scripture has power to divide people…..and it does. “Thoughts and intentions of the heart” are revealed to God.

"Easy to answer" you say? Unfortunately for JW, your theogy is just 'not consistent' and 'that' is TRUE. "any sort of blood" "by ANY means" ,YOU SAY? Since you aren't a DOCTOR and I am, let me share a point with you. Donor ORGANS have BLOOD in them. So when you receive/give an organ, your theological POV kind of suffers consistency.....from my POV.

So you are a doctor? Then you should be acquainted with the real and present danger of blood transfusions which are claimed to save lives, but in actual fact more people die after accepting a blood transfusion than they ever have from rejecting one.

I would invite you to view a couple of short videos from the Australian Blood Authority regarding the risk/ benefits of blood transfusions in today’s medical practice.

Risks verses benefits of blood transfusion and a patient study (link)

Neither of these are from JW’s. Our stand is completely scriptural, but it has had many benefits for those who have refused to take into their body, someone else’s blood...especially when you live in a country where blood is sold. Do you know whose blood you are getting?

I'm sorry but 'consistency' is just a jewel your theology still needs to search for.
Heb. says "minister tho those who are going to "inherit Salvation" or GET SAVED. It does not say 'get mature in the faith'. That's just religious indoctrination.

1 Cor 13:9-13
”For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially, 10 but when what is complete comes, what is partial will be done away with. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, to think as a child, to reason as a child; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the traits of a child…. 13 Now, however, these three remain: faith, hope, love; but the greatest of these is love.”

Heb 5:12-14…
”For although by now you should be teachers, you again need someone to teach you from the beginning the elementary things of the sacred pronouncements of God, and you have gone back to needing milk, not solid food. 13 For everyone who continues to feed on milk is unacquainted with the word of righteousness, for he is a young child. 14 But solid food belongs to mature people, to those who through use have their powers of discernment trained to distinguish both right and wrong.”

I think Paul disagrees with you….Christian maturity is very important. The spiritual ‘babies’ have to grow up and learn to eat solid food, and then to stand on their own two feet In the ‘warfare’ that comes with the territory.

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:


Aunty, EVERYTHING TRUE ISN'T NECESSARILY WRITTEN in a book with a beginning and end describing a GOD which has neither

And therein lies “the foot in the door” for the devil to do his thing…..depart from the scriptures to introduce your own ideas because you believe that they are revealed to the “saints”…..and you claim to be one of them…..that doesn’t make you one of them…….sorry, I am not convinced of your authority over scripture.

God will tell us all soon who are the genuine “saints” and who are deluded wannabe’s. It is the “many” who will receive Christ’s rejection….”few” are found on the road to life. (Matt 7:13-14, 21-3)

I'll just end there. We overcome by the blood and our testimony. Please share a supernatural testimony from your spiritual bag.

If you say so…..but I thank God every day that the devil is not using his deceptive tricks on me….the supernatural stuff is his thing in this day and age (2 Thess 2:9-12)…..Jehovah needs no tricks to convince people of his truth…that happens in the heart, and it leads one into a united global family of his witnesses. (1 Cor 1:10; John 6:65)

I‘m sorry, but I left the fractured, disunited houses of Christendom decades ago…..never to return.

 

[St. SteVen]

I‘m sorry, but I left the fractured, disunited houses of Christendom decades ago…..never to return.

Seems like a meaningless criticism.
The Catholics say the same thing. Protestants left the church.
And then the JWs left Protestantism. Where does that leave you?
Sounds like fracture and disunity. Unity is NEVER a result of running away.

Build bridges, not walls. - The gospel according to St. SteVen

/

 

[St. SteVen]

Seems like a meaningless criticism.
The Catholics say the same thing. Protestants left the church.
And then the JWs left Protestantism. Where does that leave you?
Sounds like fracture and disunity. Unity is NEVER a result of running away.

Build bridges, not walls. - The gospel according to St. SteVen

/

Criticism of the many denominations is a primary tactic for groups that grow mostly by proselytizing Christians.
They seek to make us dissatisfied with the Christian church we ALREADY belong to. For their own benefit.
They are the sowers of discord and schisms.

Galatians 4:17 NIV
Those people are zealous to win you over, but for no good.
What they want is to alienate you from us, so that you may have zeal for them.

/

 

[Hillsage]

Seems like a meaningless criticism.
The Catholics say the same thing. Protestants left the church.
And then the JWs left Protestantism. Where does that leave you?
Sounds like fracture and disunity. Unity is NEVER a result of running away.

Build bridges, not walls. - The gospel according to St. SteVen

/

Good word and very true. JW's and Mormons both don't realize that Jesus Himself said "I will build my church." And I don't think He took a vacation or the Father.

JOH 5:17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father is working still, and I am working."

The problem just might be "not having 'eyes to see or ears to hear."....just exactly what His work 'looks and sounds like'.

But God did watch the church go to hell when they invented THEOLOGY, which is defined as 'the study of the nature of God and religious belief.'. And I'm sure that when God 'saw and heard' what they were going to do; HE looked down from above and said to the angels; "Oh boy, this oughta be good." I agree, and I also believe that a whole lot of 'churchianity' has nothing to do with that which Jesus has been building. Because most of what's done doesn't even need Jesus or supernatural power of God....to keep going.

Follow Jesus and 'see/hear' what he's 'doing/saying'. His gospel still IMO. And I'll up 'my ante' over 'Aunty' with that.

 

[St. SteVen]

But God did watch the church go to hell when they invented THEOLOGY, which is defined as 'the study of the nature of God and religious belief.'. And I'm sure that when God 'saw and heard' what they were going to do; HE looked down from above and said to the angels; "Oh boy, this oughta be good." I agree, and I also believe that a whole lot of 'churchianity' has nothing to do with that which Jesus has been building. Because most of what's done doesn't even need Jesus or supernatural power of God....to keep going.

Right. It's the "gates of hell" (entrance to the enemies stronghold) that will not prevail as Jesus builds his church.
We aren't suppose to storm the gates of the church (the Bride of Christ) to build OUR OWN church.
We are to storm the enemies stronghold to build the church. To take back what is rightfully his.

/

 

[Aunty Jane]

Seems like a meaningless criticism.
The Catholics say the same thing. Protestants left the church.
And then the JWs left Protestantism. Where does that leave you?

It leaves us in the same situation as the Jewish Christians found themselves in….having the choice to remain with the fractured religion that their forefathers started with, but was so corrupted by the time Jesus arrived that he had to cast them off and choose a new nation that would obey him and serve his Father’s interests on earth. History is repeating because people never learn from past mistakes. The devil counts on human nature never to change…and it doesn’t.

As part of his prophesy on the time of his return, Jesus said he would appoint a “faithful and wise slave” who was assigned to “feed” Christ’s entire household of their fellow slaves, “their food at the proper time”.

It is the time of the end, and Jesus has appointed this slave (not an individual, but a collective) and “he“ has been doing what Jesus commanded in Matt 28:19-20, ever since. Tell me what churches in Christendom are out there calling on the people as Jesus instructed? (Matt 10:11-14; Acts 20:20)……and with one message for all in every nation. There is only one global body of Christians doing this…..taking “the good news of God’s Kingdom” to all who will listen….the trouble is satan has blinded people to the truth, and substituted with false religious teachings, so it sounds like lies. (2 Cor 4:3-4)

Jesus said that the time of his return would be “just like the days of Noah”….how many were listening to what Noah told them before the waters swept them all away? (Matt 24:37-39) How many survivors were there outside the ark?

Sounds like fracture and disunity. Unity is NEVER a result of running away.

if you are getting a divorce on valid grounds, it’s not “running away”…it’s “walking away” in full knowledge about what you are doing and why.
The command in Rev 18:4-8 is clear….
“Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues. 5 For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind. 6 Repay her in the way she treated others, yes, pay her back double for the things she has done; in the cup she has mixed, mix a double portion for her. 7 To the extent that she glorified herself and lived in shameless luxury, to that extent give her torment and mourning. For she keeps saying in her heart: ‘I sit as queen, and I am not a widow, and I will never see mourning.’ 8 That is why in one day her plagues will come, death and mourning and famine, and she will be completely burned with fire“……..Why? Because God views all false religion as a harlot….sleeping with his enemies, and pretending that God does not care.

Build bridges, not walls. - The gospel according to St. SteVen

God does not want to build bridges made out of matchsticks. The whole foundation of Christendom’s teachings are rotten…not gleaned from scripture, but from pagan ideas that crept into “the church”centuries ago. The apostle Paul called them “teachings of demons”.

1 Timothy 4:1-3….
”However, the inspired word clearly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired statements and teachings of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, whose conscience is seared as with a branding iron. 3 They forbid marriage and command people to abstain from foods that God created to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who have faith and accurately know the truth”.

Didnt the ‘mother church‘ do exactly that? Whatever happened to the poor “souls in hell” who did not comply with the church’s man made rules about eating meat on Friday? Once the rule was done away with, were they all suddenly taken to heaven? What about forbidding priests to marry when Anglican priests who are accepted back into the mother church could remain married? Their rules made the Catholic priesthood a haven for homosexuals and pedophiles to freely abuse children in their institutions where these children could get no help.

And didn’t the Protestant Reformers take the core of Catholic doctrines (the trinity, immortality of the soul and hellfire) and run away with them? None of them are scriptural, but form the entire foundation of their belief system.

Criticism of the many denominations is a primary tactic for groups that grow most by proselytizing Christians.
They seek to make us dissatisfied with the Christian church we ALREADY belong to. For their own benefit.

I’m afraid that the people are already dissatisfied with the churches that they ALREADY belong to…..and we should know, because we call on them and they often tell us about the hypocrisy they witness in those churches and why they are intent on not going back.

Those are “the lost sheep” that Jesus told his disciples to search for……you cannot search for people who aren’t lost, and if you are stuck in a building where the pastor is only preaching to the converted (and most of them don’t really care about what God thinks of them anyway, because they are performing some kind of duty in their mind, and that means they will go to heaven)……that is delusional, but it is an idea fostered by the churches. They don’t need to know anything, because their priest or minister knows it all for them. There is no place in God’s kingdom for lazy Christians…..

They are the sowers of discord and schisms.

Dont look now, but that describes Christendom to a tee. You are all one big happy family (not) and you can’t really agree on much at all….talk about discord and schisms! They are right there in the thousands of denominations started by those who believe that they are “saints” who can interpret scripture….their way.
Who says any of them are right?

In Jesus’ parable of “the wheat and the weeds”, the wheat are still here but the weeds have simply outnumbered them. But at “the time of the end”…..that is, when Christ was due to return, his true disciples were to manifest themselves and separate from the weeds altogether…..his “faithful slave“ (Matt 24:43-44) are the “wheat”, feeding the sheep and taking them to good pasturage….and it’s almost harvest time…are you ready? Has your church prepared you for the greatest tribulation in man’s history? It is looming and nothing can stop it. (Matt 23:21-22) Only those worshipping the true God will survive it.

 

[Freedm]

Right. It's the "gates of hell" (entrance to the enemies stronghold) that will not prevail as Jesus builds his church.
We aren't suppose to storm the gates of the church (the Bride of Christ) to build OUR OWN church.
We are to storm the enemies stronghold to build the church. To take back what is rightfully his.

/

We should be careful to understand exactly what is meant here.

Matthew 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

It is actually the gates of Hades, not hell that Jesus spoke about, and Hades is the realm of the dead. All the dead, not just the wicked. He's not talking about evil, or Satan, or an army of demons. Jesus is simply saying here that death will not overcome his church, because he will defeat it, and his church will have everlasting life.

We don't need to storm the enemy, because Jesus has already done that for us. Jesus has destroyed all enemies and the last enemy he destroyed was death. We are not at war, because, not only does God not need us to fight his battles, but because the war has already been won.

 

[Hillsage]

“Iniquity” (ʿāôn) H5771 Strongs Concordance…..i

“Transgression” (pešaʿ) H6588 Strongs….

“Sin” (ḥaṭṭā'āṯ) H2403 Strongs…

I asked for "your opinion" definition specifically Aunty. I did so because you are obviously a thinker/learner. And though not always right, you're not always wrong either IMO.

But STRONG'S is not infallible, just like the 100s of disagreeing bible translations. But it was in my own studies that I found Strong's def. to not even be consistent with scripture. That 'fact' therefore simply made it a poor definition also IMO.

When I first came to 'the Christian forums world' 20+ years ago I was delighted to 'think' that some on the 'www christian world' would be the smartest of the smart. I was also elated to find pastors, seminary students and arm chair theologians like myself. And when I pressed those gurus and had them all cornered with my questions, one particularly bright CEMETARY student haughtily informed 'arm chair studier' me, that in DUM-IN-IT-ME school HE was taught that iniquity, transgression, sin were called "A heaping of terms", and really just all mean the same thing." After studying with the "anointing within" I think you disproving my definitions will be harder than me trying to remember what I learned to disagree with Strong's.

If the “soul and the spirit“ can be divided like “joints and their marrow”, then there is plainly a difference between the two. Just as joints and their marrow are not the same, neither is the soul and spirit…..isn’t that true doc? Just reading scripture has power to divide people…..and it does. “Thoughts and intentions of the heart” are revealed to God.

"Joints and marrow" isn't comparing body to soul. It's comparing the 'thoughts & intents' closeness of "the heart/brain and the head brain". As a doctor we studied the 3 brains of the body. The big one in your head, the tiny cardiac plexus of your heart, and Auerbauch's plexus in the belly.

Your heart starts beating blood in the embryo at 21 days. It's 5 weeks before the brain even starts to be formed. And lastly the brain in your gut. It's where you get that 'gut feeling'....from your spirit. That's where 'from out of his belly your 'holy spirit of Christ in you' speaks 'rivers of living words in tongues.

JOH 7:38 He that believeth (Gr/into) me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit,...

“Iniquity” (ʿāôn) H5771 Strongs Concordance…..is guilt deserving of punishment, as it is used in other verses, such as Lev 5:17…
“Now if a person sins and does any of the things which the LORD has commanded not to be done, though he was unaware, still he is guilty and shall bear his punishment. H5771” A result of sinning.

“Transgression” (pešaʿ) H6588 Strongs….means transgression or rebellion. Sinful acts.

“Sin” (ḥaṭṭā'āṯ) H2403 Strongs….is any action in contravention to the laws of God. It literally means missing or not reaching a goal, way, mark, or right point, which can also be applied to the sin born in us as inherited from our first parents….so what is the great difference in these three words…not a great deal that I can determine. The Bible often uses expressions three times for emphasis…..all of the above are about punishable sin. Did Israel ever get the message?

Duly noted.

The whole body is harmonious, “body soul and spirit”, which means no divisions or dissension, the supposed threesome you single out has no real meaning supported by the rest of scripture. My opinion is as valid as yours…..God knows who has the truth….so we will let him decide who he is…and how many of him there are…..shall we?

If the “soul and the spirit“ can be divided like “joints and their marrow”, then there is plainly a difference between the two. Just as joints and their marrow are not the same, neither is the soul and spirit…..isn’t that true doc? Just reading scripture has power to divide people…..and it does. “Thoughts and intentions of the heart” are revealed to God.

So you are a doctor? Then you should be acquainted with the real and present danger of blood transfusions which are claimed to save lives, but in actual fact more people die after accepting a blood transfusion than they ever have from rejecting one.

I would invite you to view a couple of short videos from the Australian Blood Authority regarding the risk/ benefits of blood transfusions in today’s medical practice.

Risks verses benefits of blood transfusion and a patient study (link)

Neither of these are from JW’s. Our stand is completely scriptural, but it has had many benefits for those who have refused to take into their body, someone else’s blood...especially when you live in a country where blood is sold. Do you know whose blood you are getting?

1 Cor 13:9-13
”For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially, 10 but when what is complete comes, what is partial will be done away with. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, to think as a child, to reason as a child; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the traits of a child…. 13 Now, however, these three remain: faith, hope, love; but the greatest of these is love.”

Heb 5:12-14…
”For although by now you should be teachers, you again need someone to teach you from the beginning the elementary things of the sacred pronouncements of God, and you have gone back to needing milk, not solid food. 13 For everyone who continues to feed on milk is unacquainted with the word of righteousness, for he is a young child. 14 But solid food belongs to mature people, to those who through use have their powers of discernment trained to distinguish both right and wrong.”

I think Paul disagrees with you….Christian maturity is very important. The spiritual ‘babies’ have to grow up and learn to eat solid food, and then to stand on their own two feet In the ‘warfare’ that comes with the territory.


And therein lies “the foot in the door” for the devil to do his thing…..depart from the scriptures to introduce your own ideas because you believe that they are revealed to the “saints”…..and you claim to be one of them…..that doesn’t make you one of them…….sorry, I am not convinced of your authority over scripture.

God will tell us all soon who are the genuine “saints” and who are deluded wannabe’s. It is the “many” who will receive Christ’s rejection….”few” are found on the road to life. (Matt 7:13-14, 21-3)

If you say so…..but I thank God every day that the devil is not using his deceptive tricks on me….the supernatural stuff is his thing in this day and age (2 Thess 2:9-12)…..Jehovah needs no tricks to convince people of his truth…that happens in the heart, and it leads one into a united global family of his witnesses. (1 Cor 1:10; John 6:65)

I‘m sorry, but I left the fractured, disunited houses of Christendom decades ago…..never to return.

And I am sorry too. I spent 2 days answering your text and then when I tried to send it; I kept getting the message that there was a problem of more than 10,0000 characters. So I started deleting and deleting and deleting until nothing was left and the same message kept popping up.

So, I am not rewriting that whole thing again and hope the FORUM protocol will finally post this, just to let you know what happened.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I asked for "your opinion" definition specifically Aunty. I did so because you are obviously a thinker/learner. And though not always right, you're not always wrong either IMO.

I thank you at least for that small concession….I have no personal opinions on scripture at all because I always compare scripture with scripture to gain a full understanding of what I read.
Strongs is good for that too as it relates all the scriptures that contains any given word or expression so that you can compare scripture to scripture.

But STRONG'S is not infallible, just like the 100s of disagreeing bible translations. But it was in my own studies that I found Strong's def. to not even be consistent with scripture. That 'fact' therefore simply made it a poor definition also IMO.

And here again we have the conundrum….pick your scholars. There is no end of scholars picking each other’s works apart…pointing out what they got wrong. So to my way of thinking we have to consider more than just the scholarly works that agree with what we want to believe….we have to take original language words into full consideration as well as the phrasing, which can be very different as it is in Greek. It all has to tell one story from Genesis to Revelation, with no contradictions.

HE was taught that iniquity, transgression, sin were called "A heaping of terms", and really just all mean the same thing." After studying with the "anointing within" I think you disproving my definitions will be harder than me trying to remember what I learned to disagree with Strong's.

As I said, some things are mentioned in three’s for emphasis. “Iniquity, transgression and sin” all related to Israel’s failure to obey God in all things. That is not something to overthink, but to take note of and try our best to comply with God’s direction through his son.

"Joints and marrow" isn't comparing body to soul.

You quoted…
HEB 4:12 “For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of SOUL and SPIRIT, of joints and marrow, (eg. BODY) and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.”
You inserted (eg. Body) there, but that is not what the original text says….God’s word is his, not yours.
He had his words recorded so that we can learn from them what he wants us to know. So if the word of God has power on the individual reading it, what can this power accomplish in someone who is being “drawn” by God? (John 6:44)

You are using scripture to suggest what it doesn’t say.
The comparison is between “SOUL AND SPIRIT” with “JOINTS AND THEIR MARROW”….is showing that these are not the same, but closely related, and they can be divided because they are not the same to begin with.

So many are taught that the “soul“ and the “spirit” are one and the same thing, when they are not, any more than joints and their marrow are the same.

It's comparing the 'thoughts & intents' closeness of "the heart/brain and the head brain". As a doctor we studied the 3 brains of the body. The big one in your head, the tiny cardiac plexus of your heart, and Auerbauch's plexus in the belly.

Your heart starts beating blood in the embryo at 21 days. It's 5 weeks before the brain even starts to be formed. And lastly the brain in your gut. It's where you get that 'gut feeling'....from your spirit. That's where 'from out of his belly your 'holy spirit of Christ in you' speaks 'rivers of living words in tongues.

Thank you for that anatomical explanation….the Bible is quite descriptive in its language, and for the most part anatomical explanations are not terribly useful to those who ‘get’ what is being said. The Scriptures use the heart, kidneys and belly etc. to infer something deep within the person that governs their thinking. The literal organs may not have such power, but figuratively, they do….the heart especially.

JOH 7:38 He that believeth (Gr/into) me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit,...

Or as the NASB renders it….”He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’” This I believe conveys the thought accurately if not the literal word.

I spent 2 days answering your text and then when I tried to send it; I kept getting the message that there was a problem of more than 10,0000 characters. So I started deleting and deleting and deleting until nothing was left and the same message kept popping up.

Yes, I encounter this problem myself and it is often a reminder that I am too wordy…..but I am a student and teacher of God’s word, and details are important to me.…so I usually split up a post so that it is more readable to any who might want to bother….

So, I am not rewriting that whole thing again and hope the FORUM protocol will finally post this, just to let you know what happened.

I appreciate your efforts and share your frustration…..we will never agree, but at least we can agree to state our beliefs in a civil fashion and allow any who might read our exchanges to make up their own minds.

Can I just ask you one question? Are you part of a global brotherhood who shares your interpretation of scripture? (1 Cor 1:10) If so then who is “the faithful and wise servant” whom Jesus said he would appoint as part of his prophesy on the end times, to “feed” all in his household “their food at the proper time”. (Matt 24:45)….what Jesus said is not indicating a ‘buffet’ where you can take whatever you want from the table, but these slaves are being ‘fed’ a whole ‘meal’ which all must eat…but not all at once…what they need is given when they need it.

This is the time of Christ’s return as judge of all of us…is it not? The slave then, must be actively doing what the Master commanded. (Matt 28:19-20, Matt 24:14) Who is actively engaged in this work, “to the most distant part of the earth” as one united body of Christians? (Acts 1:6-8)

 

[Aunty Jane]

@Hillsage…as a medical practitioner, I would welcome your comments on the videos I linked to.
What is your field…?

 

[Aunty Jane]

We should be careful to understand exactly what is meant here.

Matthew 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

It is actually the gates of Hades, not hell that Jesus spoke about, and Hades is the realm of the dead. All the dead, not just the wicked. He's not talking about evil, or Satan, or an army of demons. Jesus is simply saying here that death will not overcome his church, because he will defeat it, and his church will have everlasting life.

Well said….it is clear that misinterpretation or misunderstanding of scripture based on false beliefs will never allow anyone to arrive at the truth. Death is the “last enemy” to be overcome but not till God’s Kingdom prevails on earth, giving redeemed mankind an opportunity to experience what it means for God’s will to be “done on earth as it is in heaven”. We have been praying for this all along, but most parrot off the words with no understanding as to what they actually mean.

We don't need to storm the enemy, because Jesus has already done that for us. Jesus has destroyed all enemies and the last enemy he destroyed was death. We are not at war, because, not only does God not need us to fight his battles, but because the war has already been won.

Jesus has defeated his enemies but they are not destroyed as yet…..they are still very much in evidence as in these “last days” demonic elements are running rampant, in a last ditch effort to take down as many as possible with them. (2 Timothy 3:1-5) We can see their influence in politics, entertainment, materialism and the development of even more heinous weapons of man’s warfare at this time. (1 John 5:19)

Paul says that we are in a war…a spiritual war, where spiritual weapons are most powerful.
2 Cor 10:3-5…
”For though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to what we are in the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things. 5 For we are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are bringing every thought into captivity to make it obedient to the Christ”.

Eph 6:11-13…
”Put on the complete suit of armor from God so that you may be able to stand firm against the crafty acts of the Devil; 12 because we have a struggle, not against blood and flesh, but against the governments, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places. 13 For this reason take up the complete suit of armor from God, so that you may be able to resist in the wicked day and, after you have accomplished everything, to stand firm.”

We will be easy pickings if we lack even one piece of that spiritual “armor”.

 

[St. SteVen]

We should be careful to understand exactly what is meant here.

Congratulations.
The Jehovah's Witnesses approve of your interpretation.

I suppose that means I was wrong. - LOL



/

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Lost of what you should of been or could of been, so your Soul has been robbed by this world.

So your being one with Christ Jesus did not come about ?

So the Soul will be in a state of that you were Lost ? your failed ! if only you knew Christ Jesus !

Think of All the people who you could of helped enter into the kingdom of God ?

But one had only looked to this world as a Slave to such creeps.

Could ones Soul look back forever that they missed the ability to serve gladly Christ Jesus and reject the temptations of Satan.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Congratulations.
The Jehovah's Witnesses approve of your interpretation.

Not so…the Bible itself says that it is “hades”….the Greek Septuagint, used by Jesus’ apostles, renders “Sheol” as “hades”. “Sheol” in Hebrew is rendered “the grave” in their Hebrew Interlinears….so “hades” is simply the grave, where souls “sleep” to await the resurrection. There is no consciousness in that place. (Eccl 9:5, 10)

There is no such place as Christendom’s “hell of eternal fiery torment”. The Catholic church invented the scary, angry God and the scary places he put “souls” after death, to gain power over the ignorant masses, deprived of access to God’s word by the church, and by their own illiteracy.

I suppose that means I was wrong. - LOL

You suppose? Or is that an admission?

Paul wrote to the Romans…
”If some lacked faith, will their lack of faith invalidate the faithfulness of God? 4 Certainly not! But let God be found true, even if every man be found a liar, just as it is written: “That you might be proved righteous in your words and might win when you are being judged.”

How can we be “righteous in our words” if we do not have the truth, but are promoting the lies taught by an apostate church that went astray centuries ago as Jesus and the apostles said it would?

If you have an interest in the truth, look for it in hidden places…..it’s there, but not visible to “many”…only to a relative “few”. According to Jesus, the gateway onto the cramped road to life is like an exit ramp…..it is narrow, so you might miss it……the signpost is covered in graffiti…..and you cannot bring any baggage with you, or you will not fit through the gate in the first place. (Matt 7:13-14) We need to stop and leave all our baggage there at the gate, and just allow God’s word and spirit to guide us through. Let the Bible speak for itself in the language in which it was written. Do your homework and see what these original words mean.

Those “blinded” by the devil however, will never see the need to leave the superhighway to death that the majority are traveling….they have no idea that it is a dead end. (2 Cor 4:3-4)