Sounds like you're saying there are two types of Christians and two types of salvation, but I'm unclear on what you base this concept. Can you give me another summary please.Sorry, missed being notified. Jesus isn't coming back for all the milk toast, pew warming "Christians". He is coming back for the "overcomers" of every church represented in the Revelation. And he is coming back for His "bride that is without spot or wrinkle". or PERFECT. Those will be seated "ON the throne" with Jesus to rule and reign.
It will be those who brought the "extra oil" or spiritual anointing to fulfill His calling FOR us, and more importantly IN us. The rest will still get their robes of righteousness FROM Jesus, if born again. But they will be standing "BEFORE the throne".
REV 3:5 He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.
Getting your name IN the "book of life" doesn't come from the imaginations of theologians that say there's a book of names of those who get to GO to heaven. The book of life gets your name in it by earning 'crowns of CONQUEST' by CONQUERING or OVERCOMING.
You GET INTO HEAVEN by the crown of INHERITANCE . That's the one we receive which was earned by Jesus and received by us when we become born again children of God.
REV 3:21 He who conquers/overcomes, I will grant him to sit with me ON MY THRONE, as I myself conquered and sat down with my Father ON HIS THRONE.
REV 7:9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no man could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues, STANDING BEFORE THE THRONE and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes,
This is a brief summary of a much longer conversation, which I'm not thinking we'll do 'here'. Present crowd is drowning in shallow water, no sense going deeper.
The changing perception of hell. - How do you define it?
- Thread starter St. SteVen
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Hillsage
Well-Known Member
I suppose it is much more than just "two types of Christians". But me saying "milk toast vs Perfect" was really just as true as saying 'the two extremes of Christianity plus everyone who was in between'. As for your "two types of salvation" comment; I personally believe that here is actually 3 salvations available for every human. First is that of our spirit, second is that of our soul and third is that of our body. The spirit is saved when born again, the soul is progressively saved by the process of sanctification and the body is finally glorified as a immortal spiritual body.
As for the book of the Revelation verses and my comments concerning its connection, that's too deep. I actually just did finish getting and reading my last monthly lesson on the book of the Revelation, 8 months ago. And those monthly studies were typically 10-12 pages long. And lesson 1 was just over 20 years ago. Lesson 256 was the last lesson.
I don't suppose 'that' helped much, but it is what it is.
That's a good way to look at salvation.
We tend to only view it as salvation of our soul, or spirit, as you put it.
How do you define the difference between soul and spirit?
Everyone seems to have a different view on that.
/ cc: @Freedm
Hillsage
Well-Known Member
I define the spirit as the source for the 'animating' 'zoe' life of the triune human being.
I define the soul as the source for the 'motivational' 'zao' life of the triune human being.
The 'animating' life, of the body, to be moving and functionally alive flesh, comes from the spirit.
The 'motivational' life, of the body, to have a 'mind, will, emotions' comes from the soul or functioning brain.
Just trying to clearly understand what you're saying here. It sounds like you're saying the soul is the person's consciousness. Is that how you would describe it?
Speaking of consciousness, I read a very interesting interpretation of Genesis 1 recently, and the author claimed that when God said "let there be light", the original language used actually more accurately could be translated as "let there be consciousness". And this does make more sense to me since, our light comes from the sun and the sun was not created until several days later, so it never made sense to me that there would be light before the sun. Not sure if this is straying too far off topic, but just thought I'd throw it in there for a thought snack.
I didn't realize you could cc people in a reply. That's cool. How do you do it?
Hillsage
Well-Known Member
Not 'just' the consciousness. Your brain's MIND makes the body function....whether conscious, SUB-conscious or UN-conscious.
Your brain's WILL determines 'I will, I won't, I can, I can't.
Your brain's EMOTIONS will be a product of whatever you are feeding your SOUL with. If it's LUST OF THE FLESH you will program DEATH into your soul life. "as a man thinks, so is he" If you feed your SOUL with your spirit you will program LIFE and LIFE ABUNDANT into your soul.
Your spirit will affect your soul and your soul will affect your body. 80% of all illnesses have definite PSYCOlogical attributes associated with them.
The Greek word for SOUL is PSUCHE the word we get Psycho, psychogenic, Psycho/somatic (brain/body). The Gr word for 'whole body' is SOMA. Gr word for just the flesh is SARX
Couldn't find anything on "light" being "consciousness". Was that supported in scripture? Or was it an interesting 'opinion' the author had?
I do think that 'Scripture' can be read 'literally' 'symbolically' or 'spiritually'.... and we must rightly divide for the correct application.
MAT 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. LIFE
23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness! YOU WILL BECOME WHAT YOU BEHOLD
24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Our two masters are LIFE or DEATH
ROM 8:1* There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2* For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Hillsage
Well-Known Member
I've seen Steven do that for a long time. But just never asked. Good question. IMO.
The "cc:" part is letter-writing etiquette. The alert you got probably said you were mentioned?
To do that, type "@" and then beginning typing a username.
A pop-up menu will assist in locating the username.
Select the username from the pull-down/pop-up menu and the user will be alerted of the mention.
You can even chnge the font size to make it a nearly bcc: (example below)
/ @Freedm
@Freedm
No, it wasn't just an opinion. He had some language references to support his point. I wish I could find it again, but I don't remember where I saw it. To be honest, it could've even have been a video. I'm not sure.
So you're saying that a person's soul is their conscious, their will, their emotions and their mind. I guess you could wrap that all up into a word, but does it mean anything else? Is the word "soul" just a catch all for grouping those things you mentioned, or is the soul also an entity that can live separately from our body?
I think of the soul as our individuality. What makes you, you.
Our brain is like an organic computer hard drive.
When we exit our physical bodies, the "data" goes with us as part of our soul. (identity)
This is why a person can have a NDE where they are able to view the doctors working to resuscitate them.
Why do they have the sense of sight and hearing (and memory) when they are outside their body?
/
Rockerduck
Well-Known Member
That's right. The body has the functions and 5 senses. The soul is the mind, will, and emotions, and personality. The spirit belongs to God and is made alive in Jesus Christ. Our body is Triune and reflects our creator God.
Hillsage
Well-Known Member
I guess I just like 'functioning of the brain' for a catch all. Personally I don't think that the brain/soul can live 'independantly' outside the body. I do 'think' that the spirit can. In the occultic practice astral projection, something is claimed biblically. That being the silver cord and the spirit of man.
ECC 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Supposedly the spirit leaves a person and gets projected to where the occultist wants it to go to look at things. It is supposedly still connected to the body with the 'silver cord'. But if the Astral Projectionist goes to long or too far astray the silver cord is snapped and the person will die from lack of life support from the spirit. Cannot verify any of this.
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Sometimes "soul" is used to describe the individual being in the afterlife.
- Revelation 6:9
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. - Revelation 20:4
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their...
Yes, that's a good question, but I learned something interesting that seems to call this into question. Scientists here in my hometown of Edmonton did an experiment using rats or mire or something. Basically they taught the mice how to get out of a maze, and then the mice's offspring, also knew how to get out of the maze, without having learned it, proving that the memory of that maze is passed onto the next generation through their dna. They found that the memory lasted through seven generations. So if the memory becomes part of your dna, then does your dna go with you after death?
I suppose the dna is a physical aspect that effects your memory which is part of your soul.
Seem to remember that some memories will be wiped away in the afterlife.
Not sure how far reaching this is, but...
Isaiah 65:17 NIV
“See, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.
/
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
There is no “hell of eternal torment” in the Bible. In order to torment the dead, they must be alive in order to feel pain and to suffer. “The dead know nothing”…..(Eccl 9:5, 10) They have no consciousness, so there can be no suffering.
No law of God was punishable by torture of any kind…..the highest penalty for any crime, was death.
When the Israelites fell to worshipping false gods by sacrificing their children in the fire, God was appalled!
He said via his prophet Jeremiah….
”They have built the high places of Toʹpheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart.’” (Jer 7:31)
If God condemned the Israelites for doing something so heinous to their children, then why would he commit that atrocity himself on his own children?
When Jesus spoke about “Gehenna” (often mistranslated as “hell”) he was alluding to that same Valley of Hinnom where the sacrifice of children was performed. God commanded that it be turned into a garbage dump where fires were kept burning day and night by the addition of brimstone (sulfur) to consume the rubbish.
The carcasses of dead animals and also the bodies of executed criminals (not considered worthy of a decent burial) were thrown into Gehenna for disposal, not for torment. The dead cannot be tormented or suffer in any way. “Gehenna” became a symbol of eternal death (the opposite of eternal life) so that those in Gehenna would never see life again in any form. The fire never went out and the maggots finished off what the fires missed….wherever there is dead flesh, there are maggots. The symbolism was lost on those who took Jesus’ words literally.
Souls are annihilated because God has no purpose in keeping the wicked alive….they will simply not be resurrected. Only God knows who is in this symbolic place.
“Hades” which is also erroneously translated as “hell” is simply the common grave of all mankind. We all go to this “hell” which is no more scary than simply going to “sleep”. Jesus will resurrect those who sleep in death, like he did with Lazarus. (John 11:11-14)
The whole purpose of allowing satan to have a free hand in tempting the human race to leave God and do the devil’s bidding, was to serve as a model and to set precedents for all time to come regarding who is the rightful ruler of mankind. Satan did not challenge God’s power (which he knew was greater than his own) but he challenged God’s rightful Sovereignty…his right to rule and to set the terms under which his gift of life should be observed.
Right at the beginning, the devil had already made himself God’s adversary by tempting the woman to disobey the only command that carried the penalty of death if it was disobeyed.
If satan was to “become like God” and gain the worship of the humans, (which was his aim) he first had to separate them from their Creator. His success with the woman placed Adam in a precarious position….it divided his loyalties. The consequences of his decision would determine the outcome for all his future children.
”That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned“. (Rom 5:12)
Sin did not come to the human race through the woman, because she was “thoroughly deceived”….but Adam was not. His decision to join her rather than to lose her, is what condemned all of us to inherit what his action passed on to us.
NO. Why would God want those in his kingdom who by their very nature are incorrigibly disobedient?
All God has ever required of his people is obedience. It’s not rocket science….free will was a gift, which if used unselfishly, would be a blessing to all….but when it was abused, it became a curse that affected everyone…including the angels, because an angel was the first one to abuse his free will to fulfill selfish ambitions.
Every heinous act ever perpetrated by man upon his fellow man, was an abuse of free will. We had to learn how to drive it so that these abuses could never happen again. There is now a record of all of the devil’s attempts to get humans to disobey God and to obey him instead, holding out “freedom” to do as you wish, instead of having to obey God as the bait. It has worked very well for him…..but this also works for God because all of us are having our free will tested….even Jesus was tempted by the devil in an attempt to get Jesus to worship him and to disobey his God. There is the motive right there…..this is the devil’s agenda.
We have the choice to do as Adam did, leading to disastrous consequences….or to follow the example of Jesus who always deferred to God’s written word in his responses. (Luke 4: 1-13)
God has no intention of incinerating his enemies literally. Fire is used in the scriptures as a symbol of everlasting destruction….usually nothing remains after a fire, but ashes…..so the reality is, ashes are dust and that is what Adam was told at the very beginning….”for dust you are, and to dust you will return”…..
That is what death is….a return to the state you were in before you were conceived…..you simply did not exist…and if you have a nature that is contrary to what God requires in the citizens of his Kingdom, you will have your right to life, cancelled. How is that not fair and just?
When Jesus taught us to “love our enemies” it was “agape” not “philea”….”agape” is love based on principle, not emotion. You can “love” someone in the sense of not hating them or wishing harm to come to them, but leaving all retribution to God. God hates the sin, not the sinner. All sinners have opportunity to repent before the judgment comes.
By the way we live our life and the choices we make, God is judging our worthiness to benefit from the precious blood of his son….never wasted on those who think that they can dictate their own terms to the Creator.
Man's sees through the natural as opposed to the spiritual bc the spiritual is beyond our fallible finite comprehension!
Matthew 19:26.
But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
Since God says this
Revelations 21:
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone:fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Mark 9:44
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Why do we try to diminish what the word has said about living for God and the consequence of NOT believing the truth !
Matthew 19:26.
But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
Since God says this
Revelations 21:
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone:fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Mark 9:44
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Why do we try to diminish what the word has said about living for God and the consequence of NOT believing the truth !
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