The Cost of Separateness

[Questor]

[SIZE=14pt]Before the first Messianic Synagogues in the First Century, a pagan could be subsumed within the other, greater society of Judaism he was joining. Dropping a pagan idol or two for another 'G-d' called YHVH was acceptable...odd behaviour, perhaps, but acceptable, because the Greco-Romans viewed godhood very differently than we do. Judaism as a religion used to be honourable within the Greco-Roman society, even envied by some. Jews were perhaps seen as odd, for not accepting the Dualism of the pagans, but honoured none-the-less for their wisdom, and their knowledge, and their success at living. And one or two pagans converting to another religion was not threatening. Jews very rarely persecuted anyone else for not being Jewish, particularly outside of Palestine...they mostly ignored them.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Then Yehoshua offered the salvation of the Jews to anyone who would. The mostly ignored little country of Israel suddenly became a stumbling block to all nations, and all people, because Yehoshua meant to bring division, and instigate change. Prophetically speaking, time was up. Everything changed, and is still changing...Messianic Believers are merely aware of the change in progress, and some are very much aware. Prophetically, the time is up again.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]It is a rare idea to most Christian Churches, and most Christians, who still flinch at the word Jew, and are flustered at the idea of having to wear a gold star on their coat, to think of being actually Jewish...to have all that tradition and solemnity and pervading seperateness in your life, along with the ever present threat of persecution for being seperate. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Seperation is threatening. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Israel was created by G-d in the idea of seperateness...holiness...to show the world, the universe, that man cannot do life at all well. The Torah is a set of rules that draw a line between holy and unholy, and create a requirement to choose sides. Most Jews have their profession as Jews made for them by their parents. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Jews cannot be non-Jewish, even when they convert to different religions, such as Islam, Taoism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Communism, or Christianity. Only Islam even has the idea that a religion can go along with your parentage. Christians, regardless of the last 70 years, have always known that a Jew is a Jew not just religiously, but to the bone, because Abba meant it to be so. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Consequently, here is a grimness in Judaism that non-Jews probably do not perceive very often, or at the least, don't admit to, for non-Jews rarely seem to recall that the nation of Israel was designed by G-d to be a thorn in the side of the remainder of the world. Jews are always aware of this problem. Israel is still a thorn, and time is pretty much up...again. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]How much longer does this world continue as it is? Probably longer than we think, for YHVH is a patient G-d, but Messianic Believers are very aware that time is up. Jews that become Messianicly minded know that time is up too, or they would not be aware of the prophecies that draw them to Messianic Belief. Christians and other Pagans are becoming aware of the need for Torah Observance despite the knowledge of Grace. Jews, reluctantly, are having their eyes opened <b><i>as G-d permits</I></b> to see Pagan and Christian Gentiles turn to the Torah. Those Jews that do not recognize Yehoshua as Mashiach are all the same more and more calling for Mashiach, and Mashiach will come because the Jews are finally calling out for Mashiach to come. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]The Notsrim came to be in the midst of great persecution, and dwindled into a larger, lesser movement called Christianity that hated it's separateness, and chose to be less Jewish to be less separate. Once less separate, and less persecuted thereby, they themselves became the persecutors of the Jews. Nearly two thousand years have passed, and Christianity is going to dwindle into the Notsrim again...amidst persecution, and may even be accepted by their Jewish Brethren despite their Messianic Beliefs because that persecution is going to be against seperateness. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]As the time of Yehoshua's return draws nearer I have no doubt that the Torah is going to be what seperates those that follow the Deceiver, and those that do not. It will probably not be a matter of degree of outward observance, either...just adherence to the first four commandments. Messianic Believers should be adhering to Torah as the Ruach haKodesh draws them to, as Torah observance it is not a mandatory requirement for Gentiles, but they should be very aware of the cost of their salvation. The Jews already are.[/SIZE]

 

[Enquirer]

You are mistaken ... Christians are not grafted into Israel and become Jews, and therefore need to observe the Torah.
Our support is not Israel, rather, our root and support is Christ himself.
Paul said in Romans 11:19 -21,

“‘Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.’ Granted. But THEY WERE BROKEN OFF BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF, and you
stand BY FAITH. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.”

The Jews (branches, not root or support) were broken off because of unbelief and when BOTH Jew AND Gentile come to Christ they
are BOTH grafted into Christ through faith.

And the Law we are BOTH called to follow is the Law of Christ Jesus, as He stated in John 15:12,

This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.

There is no going back to the 613 commandments of the Torah, nor is there a call to observe days etc.

 

[Questor]

You are mistaken ... Christians are not grafted into Israel and become Jews, and therefore need to observe the Torah.
Our support is not Israel, rather, our root and support is Christ himself.

Believers in Yeshua are supposed to become His disciples. Discipleship is to become like the Master you are learning from. Our Master is a Jew. He followed all the Torah perfectly, while picking and choosing to follow the customs of His people, as handed down by the Sages. - Rabbinic Judiasm didn't begin until after 200AD, when they wrote down the Talmud, and Yeshua Disputed with the fore-runners of Rabbinical Judaism...the Pharisees, when He didn't agree with them.

We gentile Believers in Yeshua should do as He did to the extent that we are able to do so. But following the Torah of whom Yeshua was the physical manifestation is somehow wrong? It is not required for salvation, but is that a reason to be lawless and disobedient?

Paul said in Romans 11:19 -21,

“‘Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.’ Granted. But THEY WERE BROKEN OFF BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF, and you
stand BY FAITH. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.”

The Jews (branches, not root or support) were broken off because of unbelief and when BOTH Jew AND Gentile come to Christ they
are BOTH grafted into Christ through faith.

Certainly.

And the Law we are BOTH called to follow is the Law of Christ Jesus, as He stated in John 15:12,

This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.



That was not Yeshua's only directive to us.




Mark 12:28-33 (KJV)
28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.



So, are you are killing and stealing regularly? Do you covet what other's have, and commit adultery? Do you lie, and cheat, and devour widows houses? Have you have dumped your Parents, and said they are nothing to you? You worship Yeshua, but never pay any attention to His Father, YHVH.

In what way are you loving YHVH by refusing such simple commandments? If You love G-d, honor His Sabbaths and Feasts, be kind to one another, and be like your Master Yeshua as much as you can, He who told everyone that the weightier matters of the law were the most important commandments to follow!


Matthew 23:23-28 (KJV)
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.




There is no going back to the 613 commandments of the Torah, nor is there a call to observe days etc.



The 613 commandments as written by the Rabbi's were in the 3rd century CE, when Rabbi Simlai mentioned it in a sermon that is recorded in Talmud Makkot 23b.


There are 684 separate commandments in the New Testament alone, and they are not including all of the Torah in the first 5 books of Moses...only parts of it.

We are saved by Grace in Yeshua, but you who do not keep the commandments, and are just as pagan as the Romans who accepted the Catholic Churches ideas as the basis for you beliefs...will not Yeshua say to you:



Matthew 7:21-27 (KJV)
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Those that work iniquity...they are lawless, and do not obey G-d or Yeshua. So, you who flaunt the laws of G-d, and say, grace is all I need, indeed have salvation...until you grieve the Holy Spirit away by your lawlessness, and lose your relationship with Yeshua.




Greek Word: ἀνομία
Transliteration: anomia
Phonetic Pronunciation:an-om-ee'-ah
Root: from <G459>
Cross Reference: TDNT - 4:1085,646
Part of Speech: n f
Vine's Words: Iniquity, Lawless, Lawlessness



Usage Notes:

English Words used in KJV:
iniquity 12
unrighteousness 1
transgress the law + <G4160> 1
transgression of the law 1
[Total Count: 15]

from <G459> (anomos); illegality, i.e. violation of law or (genitive) wickedness :- iniquity, × transgress (-ion of) the law, unrighteousness.

Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Questor, Man, all I can say is you're being deceived, big time! Do you have your sheep ranch up and running? If you want to follow the Torah, then you have to follow ALL of it. You can't pick and choose, which means sacrifices will have to be reinstated because what Christ did on the cross wasn't good enough, right? You're missing the whole point of the new covenant. [SIZE=12pt]Gal. 4:4-5 - “But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5 to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Redeemed means to be set free from. There is a major difference between how Christ lived His life (as He was under the law), then how believers live their lives since His resurrection. The spiritual world was turned upside down. We are joint heirs with the author of the law, we are no longer subjects under obedience but sons with full rights based upon what Christ did for us. The law is no longer relevant. The moral aspects of the law are written in our hearts so we automatically know by the HS if we have grieved Him or not[/SIZE] and then we ask for the forgiveness that is always available. Your outlook as stated here: to have [SIZE=14pt]Christian Gentiles turn to the Torah[/SIZE], would mean the devil wins.

 

[Questor]

Ah, Trekson, are you still not reading the Scriptures?


Believers in Yeshua are in the New Covenant. Only the Sinai Covenant requires all of the laws to be kept to avoid the curses of G-d. We are adopted into Israel through Yeshua, in the New Covenant...which is all of the Old Covenant written onto our hearts, enabling by the Holy Spirit, and with grace for when we screw up, for it is not our righteousness that earns our salvation. Yeshua paid with His blood for our salvation.

I rest my salvation in Yeshua's righteousness alone, because I have none. Nothing I do is but obedience to what G-d has stated.


I only keep those observances that the Ruach haKodesh has asked me to. I am a Messianic Karaite Gentile. That means I believe Yeshua is my Savior. The Karaite is Hebrew for Sola Scriptura, and Gentiles are what we are, not being Jews. I do not demand that others keep the Torah. I am warning you that G-d demands it of Jews, but we Gentiles are not required to keep the Sinai Covenant.



We are, however, bound to the New Covenant, where the Torah is to be written on our hearts. Same Torah, same commandments, same laws in the Books of Moses. The New Covenant that we are entered into in Yeshua contains all the covenants before it...the New Covenant is about the Holy Spirit writing G-d's commandments from the Torah and all of the Scriptures old and new on our hearts, so that we desire to keep them as best we can, as an act of love, and an act of worship. It's not about earning salvation, it's about salvation having come to you, and made a difference in who you are, and what is important...your desires, or G-d's desires for you.



Do you not know that everything that Yeshua did in full obedience to Torah did not die at the cross? The penalty for sin died at the cross, and the curses that go with it, for everyone who believes and trusts in Yeshua. That's by grace, in Yeshua's righteousness.



But Yeshua never suggested that doing as you please would be a sign of love for G-d! On the contrary, Yeshua knew that many would take the grace and righteousness He gave, and forget that the statement "Love the Lord your G-d with all your mind, heart, soul and strength, and your neighbour as yourself" was the complete summation of doing all the commandments that G-d gave. Yeshua warned that people would teach falsely, and so did every Apostle in the New Testament.



When people say that the Law was nailed to the cross, they mean that Yeshua, the living Torah, was nailed to the cross, not G-d's commandments.



Hillel, who was a famous teacher at the time of Christ in Jerusalem is famous for saying the exact same phrase to a seeker who wanted the Torah taught to him while he stood on one foot. Hillel said that these two commandments are all of Torah, and the rest is all commentary.



So, you say you love G-d, but you do not do what He wants. You want to do what you want, and not what the Scriptures say.



Your choice. G-d allows it. Salvation is by faith alone. But true salvation bears fruit, and limbs that bear no fruit are removed from the vine they were grafted into, and burnt. Not my words, Yeshua's.





[SIZE=10.5pt]John 15:1-6 (CJB)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]1 [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt] “I am the real vine, and my Father is the gardener.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]2 Every branch which is part of me but fails to bear fruit, he cuts off; and every branch that does bear fruit, he prunes, so that it may bear more fruit.
3 Right now, because of the word which I have spoken to you, you are pruned.
4 Stay united with me, as I will with you — for just as the branch can’t put forth fruit by itself apart from the vine, so you can’t bear fruit apart from me.
5 “I am the vine and you are the branches. Those who stay united with me, and I with them, are the ones who bear much fruit; because apart from me you can’t do a thing.
6 Unless a person remains united with me, he is thrown away like a branch and dries up. Such branches are gathered and thrown into the fire, where they are burned up. [/SIZE]



You may never hear the word's "Welcome, thy good and faithful servant. Come and enter into My rest."...the Messianic Kingdom if you refuse to do as Yeshua asked...Love the Lord your G-d with all your heart, mind, soul and strength, and your neighbor as yourself.



And Yeshua, seeing your blatant dis-obedience may say:





[SIZE=10.5pt]"Matthew 7:21-23 (CJB)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]21 [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt] “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]only those who do what my Father in heaven wants[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt].[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]22 [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt] On that Day, many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord! Didn’t we prophesy in your name? Didn’t we expel demons in your name? Didn’t we perform many miracles in your name?’[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]23 Then I will tell them to their faces, [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’[/SIZE]

 

[Trekson]

Hi Questor, I replied to this in the "sabbath-keeping" post but I'll add a couple more things here. Christ was born, lived and died under the law and as such, He taught some aspects of the law to his Jewish brethren. While much of His teaching is for us anything law related except for the three verses I showed on the other post are NOT for us. They were SPECIFICALLY for the Jews of His generation. EVERYTHING CHANGED AT THE CROSS!!!

Paul was given the task of showing believers how to live a godly life now that the law was fulfilled. So in the teachings about the law we need to concern ourselves with Paul's teaching, not Christ's because they each covered a separate time period. Before the cross and after the cross. Where was the law fulfilled? At the cross! Consider these two verses:

Luke 22:37 - "For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end."

Luke 24:44 - "And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me."

These are saying that the law will be fulfilled in Him and that the things "concerning" Him will have an end and that the end of the law and of the prophecies concerning Him were done and fulfilled at the cross. So yes, I do read the scriptures but the difference is, with the help of the Holy Spirit, I've learned how to "rightly divide the word of truth". I pray you will learn this as well.