The False Idea of Replacement Theology

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes I do

But that is not the promise given to israel. the land..

Israel was promised land, But they could also be saved, many of them were, Many of them rejected.

they get a twofold gift. Even abraham desired the greater gift. But that does nto negate the first gift God gave him, here on earth.

And you know this how? Or are you just wanting that to be the case? The text certainly does not say that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Is this the Jewish section?
Can you point me back to the Christian section?

Haha. No kidding. It seems that some here would be more comfortable following Judaism rather than Christianity. In Christianity Jew and Gentile believers have been brought together as one body and as the one people of God by the blood of Christ. Some here are talking about some other religion where Jews and Gentiles remain separated.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Nope this is not what he (me) is talking about!!

Matt 23: 37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate;

this is when they were cut off..

you both show you do not understand what I believe so how can you know I am wrong?

Are you a narcissist? I wasn't talking about you, I was talking about Timtofly. Try to follow along more carefully, so you don't embarrass yourself like this.

 

[PinSeeker]

You are wrong in thinking that there was no spiritual component to the Israel ethnicity.

The latter is outward; the former is inward. See Romans 2:28-29.

You see two Israels as well: physical and spiritual.

Hmmm, okay, sure, The former is of men, and the latter is of God. It was always possible for anyone to see outward Israel, physical descendants ~ just as now it is possible for anyone to see the visible church, those who profess faith and belief. But not all of outward Israel ~ even as those in the visible church ~ were of God's Israel (Romans 9:6-8), which was always inward and a matter of the heart... whether the person had been made a true Jew and a slave to righteousness. This is intensely parallel to, now, only those born again of the Spirit and thus members of Christ's invisible church (invisible in the sense that only God knows who its true members are because He has made them so, giving them new hearts) are true Jews, regardless of ethnicity, and slaves to righteousness.

Is Israel all saved before, during, or after the fulness of the Gentiles?

Yes. God's Israel. At any given time, yes. And one day it will be complete. After the fullness of the Gentiles has been brought in and, subsequently, the partial hardening removed. This is how all of God's Israel will be saved.

Is Israel those of Jacob or the Gentiles?

God's Israel is all those who are truly of Jacob, those whose God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the heart, regardless of ethnicity. 'Twas always thus, and always thus shall be.

Will the Deliverer save Jacob by turning away ungodliness?

No, by overcoming it.

According to Paul that had not happened yet.

Well, the complete "turning away" of ungodliness, no. But that is changing, and has been even from after the events of Genesis 3, and will in full when He returns.

Paul did not say it was fulfilled. Paul was saying it was on hold until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.

Right, but Paul did say ~ in all of his epistles ~ that it was being fulfilled... in the process... being brought to completion. Not "on hold," but in process, and on track, according to God's will.

Paul did not say the fulness of the Gentiles was the saving of Israel.

Not completely, no. There are two components to the saving of all of God's Israel, as he is very clear of in Romans 11:25-26. This is what I was saying just above. The fullness of the Gentile elect will be brought in, then the partial hardening that is now on Israel removed, and in this way all of Israel will be saved. It's just incredible to me how or why you and some others keep trying to get around this, but so it is.

Israel has not been Israel for a very long time. Hence not all of Israel are Israel.

God's Israel was what it was, and is what it is, and will be what it will be. Yes, right now, not all those who seem to make up Israel or say they are of Israel are actually of God's Israel.

This only applies to those grafted into the tree.

This... is what I have been saying, over, and over, and over again... Wow. But grafted in, meaning made one with. Even we Gentiles who have been born again and saved through faith by the grace of God are (in Paul's language from Ephesians 2) no longer strangers and aliens, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God," God's Israel.

You are not a natural branch.

True. I've never said otherwise. But I have been made to be as if I were, one with, in the true vine, Christ Jesus.

No one is today. Not even Jacob are natural branches since the Cross.

Well, some are still natural branches, but have been broken off, but can be re-grafted in. And this is not just since the Cross. It's because of the Cross ~ actually because of what Jesus did on the Cross ~ but not just since the Cross.

We are not in Israel.

If we are in Christ, we are of God's Israel.

We are in Christ.

If we have been born again of the Spirit, sure, and if so, we are of God's Israel.

Ethnic Israel was at one time in Christ as natural branches, until a branch was cut off.

If anyone, past, present, or future, was truly in Christ ~ which is a work of God ~ then that branch, natural or otherwise, was never and never will be cut off. For those, His elect, nothing ~ nothing ~ could or can separate them/us from the love of Christ, not tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword. No, in all these things they were and we are more than conquerors through Him who loved them/us. And neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Amen and amen.

Grace and peace to you, Timtofly.

 

[Grailhunter]

Haha. No kidding. It seems that some here would be more comfortable following Judaism rather than Christianity. In Christianity Jew and Gentile believers have been brought together as one body and as the one people of God by the blood of Christ. Some here are talking about some other religion where Jews and Gentiles remain separated.

They lost their position as favored people.....Crucify Him! Crucify Him! Let His blood be on us and our children!
Hard to recover from that! And history shows they were a hated people on earth for several centuries. Even the
Christians tortured and killed them like witches during the inquisitions.

The writing on the wall had already occurred in the Old Testament.
Amos 7:7-9
7 Thus He showed me, and behold, the Lord was standing by a vertical wall with a plumb line in His hand. 8 The Lord said to me, “What do you see, Amos?” And I said, “A plumb line.” Then the Lord said, “Behold I am about to put a plumb line In the midst of My people Israel. I will spare them no longer. 9 “The high places of Isaac will be desolated And the sanctuaries of Israel laid waste. Then I will rise up against the house of Jeroboam with the sword.”

 

[Keraz]

I am pleased to see how most here do realize that the true Israel of God is the faithful Christian peoples. The Overcomers for God, as Jacob was and his new name applies to every Christian who follows Jesus and keeps His Commandments.
The present Jewish State of Israel is a Satanic construct, proved by their hatred of Jesus. Their fate is to be virtually total destruction, as many prophesies attest. Isaiah 22:14, Romans 9:27

Unfortunately, the popular Chruch teaching of a 'rapture to heaven', necessitates the Jewish people [Israel in their thinking] to be present on earth while they sit in heaven. All quite wrong and never said to happen in the Bible.

 

[Timtofly]

You say there was no more Israel after the cross. Yet, after the cross, Paul said he was an Israelite in the sense of being physically descended from Abraham and physically being "of the tribe of Benjamin". He was not speaking of spiritual Israel there. So, you are blatantly contradicting Paul by saying there was no more Israel after the cross.

Paul was born prior to the Cross. Paul was one who was cut off, and grafted back in. Paul was responsible for killing Christians, and an enemy of God.

You are not taking into consideration that ethnicity was made obsolete at the Cross. Which means it was important prior to the Cross, and being in Israel was being a natural branch. What do you think it means to be naturally born into Christ? Obviously you don't take that into consideration at all.

Just continue to think I make it all up then, since that is basically your response anyway.

I pointed out there was no more Israel way before the Cross in 720BC. Only a remnant survived in each generation. Yet there was still a few Israelites still in Christ when Paul was born. If you limit your view to Paul's generation, I have no argument, because there was always a remnant.

The point is that after one is cut off, a branch does not grow a natural tree in the wild. All of Israel was not even cut off. Thousands of Israelites came to Jerusalem each year. Many of them accepted Christ on the day of Pentecost and remained in Christ. The Cross did not just cut every branch off. It just meant being of Israel no longer applied, due to ethnicity. How could one still be born a natural Israelite if ethnicity no longer mattered? All you do is replace Israel with your own definition of Israel. Then you deny ethnicity mattered prior to the Cross. You still create two Israels. You have split Israel into two types, physical and spiritual. Israel was a spiritual ethnicity, not two different ethnicities, one spiritual and one physical.

The use of symbolism is not that Israel is a literal olive tree. One has to also see that ethnicity was not symbolic but very important as being designed by God, not just an exercise in philosophical ideology. God kept the liniage from Adam to Christ in Scripture for a purpose. So when you try to split God's design, it does not make sense. God even pointed put that good or bad people would enjoy or suffer the benefits or punishment of one generation to the third and fourth generations, showing how much ethnicity was important to Israel.

Now all you are saying is that all physical Israel is not spiritual Israel putting your own ideal presuppositions into God's Word.

 

[Cassandra]

During the Millennium the NT Covenant will be inferior to the Law written in the hearts and will of every person born on the earth. Now we can sin because it is our nature to sin. We have to repent and confess that sin. In the Millennium, an act of disobedience against the natural law written in their nature, means instant death. Disobedience will be against nature, not one's nature. No one will mourn the death of a loved one, because they will be considered cursed and removal from society will be deemed a blessing.

Where in the world did you get this idea?

 

[Timtofly]

Yes, exactly. Do you not think you are grafted into the tree?


Where does it say a branch (singular) was cut off? It doesn't. It says branches (plural) were cut off. Stop changing scripture.

Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Well you seem to place more emphasis on the spiritual as physical. No one is ethnic in a spiritual sense after the Cross.

You don't have ethnic children who are already in Christ.

Being cut off was both ethnic and spiritual, but you seem to claim only the latter. Do you think one can loose their salvation, or be ejected from God's family? No one is spiritually born from conception, and cut off by disobedience. That was Only Israel prior to the Cross. Unless you don't even see that is what a natural branch means?

How can you be cut off, since there are no natural branches at all any more?

No one is born a natural branch, not even "Israelites". That is why Israel has been cut off corporately, but you seem to forget that point. Being born into the kingdom of God is no longer ethnic nor physical. There is no Israel tree, as there never was. Israel was a bunch of branches as you put it, not a corporate tree, as you deny a single branch was cut off. Nothing grows as a branch is the point. Offspring of Jacob have to be grafted in, not natural branches at all. Not that they were cut off. All are wild branches since the Cross, they never were a part of this symbolic tree until grafted in.

Jesus introduced the Second Birth as a foreign concept to Nicodemus. They were all Israel since birth as natural branches. The Second Birth is not into Israel neither physically nor spiritually. There is no spiritual Israel, distinct from physical Israel. You were of Israel, or cut off, no longer Israel period. Of course there were no natural branches after the Cross and the Temple veil was torn from top to bottom. That does not mean they were cut off. It means there were no longer any natural branches period.

Amil and historist postmill deny there will be natural branches in the future. They deny procreation as well. That is why they are considered replacement theology. That was it at the Cross. Everything has been spiritual, and will never be physical again, ever. Then you project that thought into the past to describe Israel prior to the Cross.

 

[Cassandra]

Of course much of what you are saying is un-Biblical, and a false fabrication, even so false that it reveals you have a false agenda, and is NOT to be trusted.


Per 1 Kings 11, God gave TEN TRIBES to Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim to rule over.

1 Kings 11:29-35
29 And it came to pass at that time when Jeroboam went out of Jerusalem, that the prophet Ahijah the Shilonite found him in the way; and he had clad himself with a new garment; and they two were alone in the field:
30 And Ahijah caught the new garment that was on him, and rent it in twelve pieces:
31 And he said to Jeroboam, Take thee ten pieces: for thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel, Behold, I will rend the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon, and will give ten tribes to thee:
32 (But he shall have one tribe for My servant David's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake, the city which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel
33 Because that they have forsaken Me, and have worshipped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Milcom the god of the children of Ammon, and have not walked in My ways, to do that which is right in Mine eyes, and to keep My statutes and My judgments, as did David his father.
34 Howbeit I will not take the whole kingdom out of his hand: but I will make him prince all the days of his life for David My servant's sake, whom I chose, because he kept My commandments and my statutes:
35 But I will take the kingdom out of his son's hand, and will give it unto thee, even ten tribes.
KJV

When God gave TEN TRIBES to Jeroboam to reign over as KING OF ISRAEL, per 1 Kings 11 and 12, ONLY the tribes of Judah and Benjamin remained as the SOUTHERN KINGDOM OF JUDAH.

The Levites at that time were still in BOTH kingdoms, until... Jeroboam setup 2 gold calf idols in the northern lands among the ten northern tribes...

2 Chron 11:13-17
13 And the priests and the Levites that were in all Israel resorted to him out of all their coasts.
14 For the Levites left their suburbs and their possession, and came to Judah and Jerusalem: for Jeroboam and his sons had cast them off from executing the priest's office unto the LORD:
15 And he ordained him priests for the high places, and for the devils, and for the calves which he had made.
16 And after them out of all the tribes of Israel such as set their hearts to seek the LORD God of Israel came to Jerusalem, to sacrifice unto the LORD God of their fathers.
17 So they strengthened the kingdom of Judah, and made Rehoboam the son of Solomon strong, three years: for three years they walked in the way of David and Solomon.
KJV

The Levites among the ten northern tribes were not allowed to do their priestly duties among the ten northern tribes when Jeroboam setup those 2 calf idols in the north. So the Levites LEFT THE TEN TRIBES, and went south to join with the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. And a small remnant of the ten northern tribes that refused the calf idols also... went south and joined with Judah, AS WRITTEN.

That meant...

1. the "house of Judah", or "kingdom of Judah" in the southern lands = tribes of Judah, Benjamin, Levi, and a remnant of the ten northern tribes, and the strangers living in those lands. These began to call themselves JEWS... which is derived from the sole tribe of Judah.

2. the "house of Israel", or "kingdom of Israel" in the northern lands = tribes of Ephraim, Manasseh, Gad, Dan, Zebulun, Napthali, Asher, Simeon, Reuben, Issachar. These have NEVER RETURNED to the holy lands, but were SCATTERED AMONG THE GENTILES as God promised He would do to Israel if they rebelled against Him per Deut.4 & 28.


So I don't know what to think of someone who would come here and tell obvious lies against God's written Word, for that kind of thing is of 'another spirit', and not from God.

Simeon was absorbed by Judah Joshua 19:1-9 : The second lot came out for Simeon, for the tribe of the people of Simeon, according to their clans, pand their inheritance was in the midst of the inheritance of the people of Judah. 2 qAnd they had for their inheritance Beersheba, Sheba, Moladah, 3 Hazar-shual, Balah, Ezem, 4 Eltolad, Bethul, Hormah, 5 Ziklag, Beth-marcaboth, Hazar-susah, 6 Beth-lebaoth, and Sharuhen—thirteen cities with their villages; 7 Ain, Rimmon, Ether, and Ashan—four cities with their villages, 8 together with all the villages around these cities as far as Baalath-beer, Ramah of the Negeb. This was the inheritance of the tribe of the people of Simeon according to their clans. 9 rThe inheritance of the people of Simeon formed part of the territory of the people of Judah. Because the portion of the people of Judah was too large for them, the people of Simeon obtained an inheritance in the midst of their inheritance.

 

[Timtofly]

God's Israel was what it was, and is what it is, and will be what it will be. Yes, right now, not all those who seem to make up Israel or say they are of Israel are actually of God's Israel.

Well that was definitive of symbolic vagueness.

No one is Israel today. We are in Christ, Christians.

Well all of those of Christ are not Christians. See how that works?

It makes as much sense as saying all those of spiritual Israel are not spiritual Israel.

You cannot apply Israel onto the church. No one is physically born into the church.

What we have today is many claim to be Christian, who are not of Christ. Just like many in Paul's day claimed to be Israel, but were not, because they were branches cut off, and no longer Israel.

Now the claim today is once born into God's family, you can be unborn or loose your Salvation. But the point is you were never spiritually born to begin with. People think because they are part of a group, that puts them in good standing with God. Or they were told that since a baby they were in God's family. None of that applies to being grafted into Christ.

 

[Timtofly]

Where in the world did you get this idea?

Isaiah 65

 

[PinSeeker]

Well that was definitive of symbolic vagueness.

Opinions are like noses...

No one is Israel today.

Ohhhh, yes they are.... This should be clearly seen in Hebrews 1:1-2, that "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world." We are all one, the Israel of God. Those of us who are actually in Christ, that is...

We are in Christ, Christians.

And are part of the Israel of God. It should be clearly seen in what Paul says in Romans 11, that "a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved." The Israel of God consists of all those who are in Christ at any given point in time, past, present, and future.

Well all of those of Christ are not Christians. See how that works?

Well, with regard to "Christians" you mean to say all of those who claim to be Christians, and in that case I agree that yes, there are some (many) folks in this world who claim to be Christians but are not. Not that I or anyone else can positively tell who they are at present, but for sure, many will (in the words of John) go out from us, proving, or making it plain, that they are not of us (1 John 2:19).

You cannot apply Israel onto the church. No one is physically born into the church.

No one was ever physically born into Israel, either. I'm going to address each separately:

"You cannot apply Israel onto the church."

John (and Jesus, as quoted by John), Paul, and Peter do exactly that. I wish the folks who see such a disconnection from the Old Testament to the New ~ as if they are two different stories. The Bible is one story of one people of God from Genesis to Revelation.​

"No one is physically born into the church."

I do agree that no one is physically born into Christ's church. But likewise, again, no child was ever, even in Old Testament times, born into the Israel of God, even when born of Israelite parents. It's quite the same thing, either way we go in time; not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel. Children are certainly welcomed into the community of Israel officially when they were circumcised at eight days old according to the command of God in the Old Testament and baptized since the days of John the Baptist and especially Peter's sermon in Acts 2 ("Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off...") as early as possible (Christian parents should have their babies baptized).​

What we have today is many claim to be Christian, who are not of Christ.

So yes, here you're affirming what I thought you may have meant above. Yes, I agree. And not part of the Israel of God. Agreed!

Just like many in Paul's day claimed to be Israel, but were not, because they were branches cut off, and no longer Israel.

Right, well, the branches you're talking about are those who were physically descended from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Sure. And the beat goes on...

Now the claim today is once born into God's family, you can be unborn or loose your Salvation. But the point is you were never spiritually born to begin with. People think because they are part of a group, that puts them in good standing with God.

Yeah, there's... nothing new under the sun. Yes, if one is truly born again of the Holy Spirit, then, well, nobody says it better than Peter:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Peter 1:3-5).​

Or they were told that since a baby they were in God's family. None of that applies to being grafted into Christ.

Yes, physical lineage does not in any way determine who is elect of God, of God's Israel, in Christ. I've said that many times.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Davy]

Simeon was absorbed by Judah Joshua 19:1-9 : The second lot came out for Simeon, for the tribe of the people of Simeon, according to their clans, pand their inheritance was in the midst of the inheritance of the people of Judah. 2 qAnd they had for their inheritance Beersheba, Sheba, Moladah, 3 Hazar-shual, Balah, Ezem, 4 Eltolad, Bethul, Hormah, 5 Ziklag, Beth-marcaboth, Hazar-susah, 6 Beth-lebaoth, and Sharuhen—thirteen cities with their villages; 7 Ain, Rimmon, Ether, and Ashan—four cities with their villages, 8 together with all the villages around these cities as far as Baalath-beer, Ramah of the Negeb. This was the inheritance of the tribe of the people of Simeon according to their clans. 9 rThe inheritance of the people of Simeon formed part of the territory of the people of Judah. Because the portion of the people of Judah was too large for them, the people of Simeon obtained an inheritance in the midst of their inheritance.

Your lack of understanding Old Testament Bible history is obvious. The Joshua Scriptures HAPPENED LONG BEFORE GOD EVEN SPLIT THE KINGDOM OF ISRAEL from Solomon's son in the 1 Kings 11 Chapter! Solomon hadn't even been born yet then!

And if you didn't make that error out of Biblical illiteracy, with not understanding the timelines of Bible history, then I would have to say you made that error on purpose. So I'm actually giving you the benefit of the doubt with your error.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well you seem to place more emphasis on the spiritual as physical.

Only because scripture does.

No one is ethnic in a spiritual sense after the Cross.

That isn't taught in scripture. What is taught in scripture is that one's physical ethnicity means nothing when it comes to belonging to Christ and being part of His body/church. But, spiritually, we are part of Spiritual Israel because we meet the criteria for being part of Spiritual Israel that Paul described in Romans 9:6-8 and Galatians 6:15-16.

You don't have ethnic children who are already in Christ.

What does this even mean?

Being cut off was both ethnic and spiritual, but you seem to claim only the latter.

I claim only the latter because that is what scripture does. You, on the other hand, make things up in your imagination that are not found anywhere in scripture. Paul very specifically said they are cut off because of unbelief. One does not lose their physical ethnicity because of unbelief.

Do you think one can loose their salvation, or be ejected from God's family?

Yes, because of what Paul said to the Gentile believers who had been grafted in:

Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

No one is spiritually born from conception, and cut off by disobedience. That was Only Israel prior to the Cross. Unless you don't even see that is what a natural branch means?

It never refers to a natural branch (singular), it refers to natural branches (plural). How many times do I have to remind you of that? Do you plan to ever actually read Romans 11 so that you can see what it actually says instead of making things up in your imagination that it says?

How can you be cut off, since there are no natural branches at all any more?

Because I'm a Gentile branch who has been grafted in. Did you miss the part about the wild branches, representing Gentile believers, being grafted in? Will you please actually take the time to read the text that we're talking about? You clearly have never read it in your entire life.

Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

This is Paul talking about Gentiles and how God did not spare the Israelites who had been cut off. He indicated that if a Gentile believers does not continue to believe then he or she too will be cut off just like the Israelite unbelievers were.

No one is born a natural branch, not even "Israelites".

LOL. Yes, they are. That is who the natural branches are. Those who are natural descendants of the nation of Israel. My goodness, you have no discernment whatsoever.

That is why Israel has been cut off corporately, but you seem to forget that point.

That is false. Show me where Paul said that. You can't. He said individual Israelite unbelievers were cut off but the remnant of believers were not cut off.

Being born into the kingdom of God is no longer ethnic nor physical. There is no Israel tree, as there never was. Israel was a bunch of branches as you put it, not a corporate tree, as you deny a single branch was cut off.

Show me where it says a branch (singular) was cut off rather than branches (plural). Good luck.

Nothing grows as a branch is the point. Offspring of Jacob have to be grafted in, not natural branches at all. Not that they were cut off. All are wild branches since the Cross, they never were a part of this symbolic tree until grafted in.

Jesus introduced the Second Birth as a foreign concept to Nicodemus. They were all Israel since birth as natural branches. The Second Birth is not into Israel neither physically nor spiritually. There is no spiritual Israel, distinct from physical Israel. You were of Israel, or cut off, no longer Israel period. Of course there were no natural branches after the Cross and the Temple veil was torn from top to bottom. That does not mean they were cut off. It means there were no longer any natural branches period.

Amil and historist postmill deny there will be natural branches in the future. They deny procreation as well. That is why they are considered replacement theology. That was it at the Cross. Everything has been spiritual, and will never be physical again, ever. Then you project that thought into the past to describe Israel prior to the Cross.

You are completely clueless. As evidenced by the fact that you are completely unable to support what you're saying with scripture.

 

[Timtofly]

Opinions are like noses...


Ohhhh, yes they are.... This should be clearly seen in Hebrews 1:1-2, that "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world." We are all one, the Israel of God. Those of us who are actually in Christ, that is...


And are part of the Israel of God. It should be clearly seen in what Paul says in Romans 11, that "a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved." The Israel of God consists of all those who are in Christ at any given point in time, past, present, and future.


Well, with regard to "Christians" you mean to say all of those who claim to be Christians, and in that case I agree that yes, there are some (many) folks in this world who claim to be Christians but are not. Not that I or anyone else can positively tell who they are at present, but for sure, many will (in the words of John) go out from us, proving, or making it plain, that they are not of us (1 John 2:19).


No one was ever physically born into Israel, either. I'm going to address each separately:

"You cannot apply Israel onto the church."

John (and Jesus, as quoted by John), Paul, and Peter do exactly that. I wish the folks who see such a disconnection from the Old Testament to the New ~ as if they are two different stories. The Bible is one story of one people of God from Genesis to Revelation.​

"No one is physically born into the church."

I do agree that no one is physically born into Christ's church. But likewise, again, no child was ever, even in Old Testament times, born into the Israel of God, even when born of Israelite parents. It's quite the same thing, either way we go in time; not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel. Children are certainly welcomed into the community of Israel officially when they were circumcised at eight days old according to the command of God in the Old Testament and baptized since the days of John the Baptist and especially Peter's sermon in Acts 2 ("Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off...") as early as possible (Christian parents should have their babies baptized).​

So yes, here you're affirming what I thought you may have meant above. Yes, I agree. And not part of the Israel of God. Agreed!


Right, well, the branches you're talking about are those who were physically descended from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Sure. And the beat goes on...


Yeah, there's... nothing new under the sun. Yes, if one is truly born again of the Holy Spirit, then, well, nobody says it better than Peter:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Peter 1:3-5).​

Yes, physical lineage does not in any way determine who is elect of God, of God's Israel, in Christ. I've said that many times.

Grace and peace to you.

And you have created two seperate and distinct Israel definitions.

 

[Timtofly]

You, on the other hand, make things up in your imagination that are not found anywhere in scripture.

No.

I understand eastern culture. You seem stuck in defining everything from a physical perspective.

 

[Timtofly]

LOL. Yes, they are. That is who the natural branches are. Those who are natural descendants of the nation of Israel. My goodness, you have no discernment whatsoever.

You misquoted me. There are no more natural branches since the Cross.

There is no more Israel period.

You think Israel is still out there growing as a wild olive tree somewhere.

 

[PinSeeker]

And you have created two seperate and distinct Israel definitions.

Well, earthly physical Israel and God's eternal Israel are two different groups of folks... not that they are mutually exclusive, as God's eternal Israel will contain a number of those who were part of earthly, physical Israel. This Venn diagram should suffice:

The inner circle is not to scale; we cannot know the true percentage of the people within the outer circle who are or will ultimately be also in the inner circle.

There is no more Israel period.

Oh... yes, there is; both are in existence, but only one is still growing... .. its numbers still being added to... ... and one day soon will be complete.

Grace and peace to you, Timtofly.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No.

I understand eastern culture. You seem stuck in defining everything from a physical perspective.

You interpret scripture using your supposed understanding of eastern culture. I interpret scripture with scripture. I think everyone here knows which approach is better.