THE CROSS vs. THE FLAG

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"In the United States many churches display the American flag. The Christian flag is usually put on one side and the American flag on the other. Does having two flags in your church mean that Christianity and the American establishment are equal? If it does, you are really in trouble."
- Francis Schaeffer

Mr. Schaeffer is regarded as a foremost Christian philosopher, theologian and film maker of the mid-twentieth century. He authored several insightful books and established the L'Abri community in Switzerland.

The following is a quote from US flag.org, a site specializing in US flag etiquette.

"When on display, the flag is accorded the place of honor, always positioned to its own right. Place it to the right of the speaker or staging area or sanctuary. Other flags should be to the left...."

While Christians and atheists often argue over metaphysical and moral philosophies, there seems to be a singular lack of political savey on the part of the Church community - especially evangelicals.

If one visits a protestant church, the US flag is usually placed on a flag stand at extreme stage right (on the platform facing the congregation or audience). All other flags and symbols are placed to the left of the flag.

The placement of the flag at the extreme right in church symbolizes its important position above all other symbols and flags including but not limited to the cross, altar and the pulpit.

My point here is that Christians are either ignorant of the meaning of political symbolism in their houses of worship or they support it.

Is the cross and the Christian God LESS important than the US flag? If symbolism in church is to be believed and understood properly - it IS. What is symbolism in a religion if not the very life blood and force of its creed and behavior?

As a result, protestant evangelical Christians have a somewhat twisted idea of what is politically important and what is not - including but not limited to US politics taking precedence over the teachings of Jesus Christ Himself.

MY QUESTION today is this? Does the reader acknowledge that the placement of the US flag in church symbolizes the superiority of the flag over the cross - of the US government over God?

Putting personal bias aside, is this what the placement of symbols in church means? As a test I've asked Christians and non-believer friends. Christians give me a blank stare. Non-believers seem to think its an silly question. "Weren't we taught that in 3rd grade?" some say.

"It must be taught that patriotic loyalty MUST NOT be identified with Christianity."
- Francis Schaeffer

What do you say, dear reader? Are 21st century Christians more politically fanatical than religiously oriented?

Personally, it seems to me that when a group worships Ronald Reagan as a demigod and insists that the platform of one political party is superior to reason and doctrine they've abandoned their own basic principles of religion.

American Christians have denied Christ - politically speaking.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[aspen]

i agree that patriotism and Christianity should not be mixed. Worrying about the placement of the flag in church seems like creating a problem that does not exist, but if it helps people recognize that being a patriot and a good Christian are not the same thing, good, I guess

 

[day]

I have often wondered about why there was an American flag in churches.

In regard to your statement that everything to the left is less than what is symbolized by the American flag, that would only apply to another flag, not objects of another class like a wood cross or a stone or wood altar. The placement does have special significance in a Catholic Church because their church flag is also a flag of a political state - the Vatican.

I think churches should do without the political flag and turn their attention to spreading the Gospel rather than spending their time in political activism.

 

[Dodo_David]

Well, that alleged "Christian flag" isn't mentioned in the Bible. So, it, too, is unnecessary in a church.

 

[soupy]

I don't believe my church has any flag, or at least it is not in a prominent position. What does the christian flag look like?

If your church has an American flag, what is the reason for it?

 

[Dan57]

What does the christian flag look like?

 

[tom55]

Flags are simply a symbol of identity. I believe when a church has the American flag inside it, it shows that they support America and what it stands for. Some people contend it shouldn't be in a church because there is a separation of church and state. However, the first amendment says "Congress shall make no laws respecting the establishment of a religion...". That doesn't mean that a church CAN'T fly the American flag. Further, the words "separation between church and state" was written in a letter from Thomas Jefferson to Baptist ministers. He was just assuring them that their religious privileges were not being guaranteed to them by the government; it was a God given right. So rjp34652, if you attend a church that has the American flag in it and you don't like it, stop going to that church. Do you attend a church?

 

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Flags are simply a symbol of identity. I believe when a church has the American flag inside it, it shows that they support America and what it stands for. Some people contend it shouldn't be in a church because there is a separation of church and state. However, the first amendment says "Congress shall make no laws respecting the establishment of a religion...". That doesn't mean that a church CAN'T fly the American flag. Further, the words "separation between church and state" was written in a letter from Thomas Jefferson to Baptist ministers. He was just assuring them that their religious privileges were not being guaranteed to them by the government; it was a God given right. So rjp34652, if you attend a church that has the American flag in it and you don't like it, stop going to that church. Do you attend a church?

Post #5 asked what the reason was for display of the American flag. Presumably there isn't any. In most public places the national flag is displayed as a form of decoration. I would assume it decorates the venue in the same way that some passage of scripture might be painted on the wall or a stained glass window might remind of some Biblical person or event. In other words, the flag has no meaning other than that of colored strips of cloth.

It's the same usage as when people fly the national flag on their car or truck next to the flag of their favorite sports franchise. Taking a walk beside those roads one often finds the national flag lying in the dirt on the shoulder of the highway. They become dislodged from the vehicle and end up in the gutter. It's only a decoration in the minds of many I think. I suppose that's why the issue of it's display in church suffers a kind of disconnect. There isn't any logical, theological or emotional attachment to the flag.

Except on a national military holiday such as July 4th, Memorial Day, or Veterans/Armistice Day when the flag is openly worshipped in ceremony and song - instead of God. Such a church is First Baptist of Atlanta hosted by Charles Stanley.

And no Tom55 …..I don't attend there any more...

it's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[tom55]

You may have no "emotional attachment" to the flag and think it "has no meaning", but many people do for there own reasons i.e. immigrants, military persons, former POW's. When the flag is being displayed/flown for certain events it is not done to worship it. It is a symbol of who we are and shows our patriotism. You suggest it is mostly flown as a decoration. You don't know the reason those persons or business's have chosen to fly the flag. I hope it is because they are patriotic. But you are probably right; it is a decoration for a lot of people.

I have failed to understand your questioning of some churches personal choices for displaying the flag in church. It's not immoral, illegal or sinful. It does me or you no harm and takes nothing from our pocket. I think if you were to ask the preacher that has the US flag displayed in their church if they are "placing government over God" or if they believe the US flag has superiority over the Christian flag they would assure you you are mistaken in your opinion.

Since you don't attend a church (I am not judging) you don't have to worry if the US flag is being flown inside any church. If you believe a businesses is only using the flag as a "decoration" and that bothers you, then don't spend your money there.

You say you don't attend church any more, that you are just hollering from your choir loft. The definition of 'choir loft' is "a gallery in a church....". So you are attending church every time you holler

 

[Apocalypticist]

Did you write this yourself? It is profound. I no longer will display the flag or subscribe to any church that does.

 

[Tropical Islander]

Funny enough, I was thinking the same thing last night. It's one of the best articles written supposedly by an American addressing the loyality conflict of the basic American mindset. Which is almost a divided heart trying to serve two masters.

I know Americans generally see that differently with that national pride thing going on. Never coming to that final realisation that God hates pride of any kind. Especially that kind of the "most proud". And flags inside a church....unthinkable in the parts of Europe where I come from, I would turn around and leave the building. If I wanted to talk with someone that has a loyality contract with the state I'll visit one of their offices.

 

[Dodo_David]

What does the christian flag look like?

There is no such thing as the Christian flag. The Bible makes no mention of such a thing.
Such a flag is purely a human creation.

By the way, in the USA, I have been in plenty of churches that don't display the American flag.

 

[Apocalypticist]

Some here are confusing whether this is a question of preference or of right. If we speak of something that is not a moral question, that is something that we respond by saying a person has choice in. But according to religion, there is a right and a wrong on some questions. Wha

What those of us who are opposed to its display are saying is that it is morally offensive to bring the flag into the church and that this is the order of God. God does not support the American flag in the church. No one is here saying that you have to believe that but a few people in here DO believe that.

I want to clear that up because some people have mistaken them for saying that they're personally opposed when what they're actually saying is it is against God.

 

[horsecamp]

The two flags in the Lutheran church represents the two kingdoms that God rules over. He rules over nations he rules over his church.



after studying scripture extensively Luther wrote about the two kingdoms and how God uses both for his purpose's
===++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Gods other kingdom


God also has another kingdom. Christ rules not only in the church but also in the world. All of history is under his feet. All kingdoms and earthly powers ultimately bow to his commands and yield to his purposes. Before his ascension Jesus himself summed up his rule: “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me” (Matthew 28:18).


read rest here

http://www.wels.net/spiritual-help/resources/civil-government/civil-government-god039s-other-kingdom

 

[Mr.Bride]

I thought this was fitting:
I pledge allegiance to the Lamb
With all my strength
With all I am
I will seek to honor His commands
I pledge allegiance to the Lamb
I have heard how Christians long ago
Were brought before a tyrants throne
They were told that he
Would spare their lives
If they would renounce
The name of Christ
But one by one they chose to die
The Son of God, they would not deny
Like a great angelic choir sings
I can almost hear their voices ring
CHORUS
Now the years have come
And the years have gone
And the cause of Jesus still goes on
Now our time has come
To count the cost
To reject this world
To embrace the Cross
And one by one let us live our lives
For the One who died to give us life
Till the trumpet sounds on the final day
Let us proudly stand and boldly say
CHORUS
To the Lamb of God who bore my pain
Who took my place
Who wore my shame
I will seek to honor His commands
I pledge allegiance to the Lamb
CHORUS (repeat)

 

[michaelvpardo]

The church isn't a building, its a people. We've come to call those places where congregations gather "a church," but its just a place to gather and could just as well be a cave. The problem isn't where a flag is placed in a "sanctuary" (as though the church's meeting places had replaced the temple), but where the nation stands in our hearts. If the nation, or anything else for that matter, stands between us and our God, then it has become an idol in our hearts.
I sometimes wonder how Jeremiah felt when he had to tell the people of Jerusalem not to resist the Babylonian invaders, as they were God's instrument of retribution against that nation's idolatry, and surrender meant salvation to those that did. When one of us speaks out against the sins of our country, most will immediately receive us as anti-American or anti-(whatever country you live in).
I once served the nation as the only home that I've ever known, but now I look for a home and a city not made by the hands of men, and I serve a King that bled and died for me.
I appreciate rjp's comments and perspective, but the symbols are less important than the realities that they represent. Symbols however are "not the very life blood and force" of a religion's creed and behavior. Symbols mean nothing at all outside of the context in which a culture places them. In the context of genuine Christianity, the person of Christ, as represented to us by His Holy Spirit, is the "life blood and force" of our religion, and Christ is not a symbol, but a person and our God.

 

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You may have no "emotional attachment" to the flag and think it "has no meaning", but many people do for there own reasons i.e. immigrants, military persons, former POW's. When the flag is being displayed/flown for certain events it is not done to worship it. It is a symbol of who we are and shows our patriotism. You suggest it is mostly flown as a decoration. You don't know the reason those persons or business's have chosen to fly the flag. I hope it is because they are patriotic. But you are probably right; it is a decoration for a lot of people.

I have failed to understand your questioning of some churches personal choices for displaying the flag in church. It's not immoral, illegal or sinful. It does me or you no harm and takes nothing from our pocket. I think if you were to ask the preacher that has the US flag displayed in their church if they are "placing government over God" or if they believe the US flag has superiority over the Christian flag they would assure you you are mistaken in your opinion.

Since you don't attend a church (I am not judging) you don't have to worry if the US flag is being flown inside any church. If you believe a businesses is only using the flag as a "decoration" and that bothers you, then don't spend your money there.

You say you don't attend church any more, that you are just hollering from your choir loft. The definition of 'choir loft' is "a gallery in a church....". So you are attending church every time you holler

Last question first. I was ordered out of a church because I expressed the necessity of salvation in the name of Jesus Christ and the blood He shed upon the cross. I was told privately that preaching "is just a job." Since I was forbidden to preach in church I holler from the choir loft - figuratively.

I am also a veteran of six years military service ended with honor. During that time I made two deployments to the middle east, one to Gitmo and one to S.A. To me the flag symbolizes my home, my family, my community and my way of life. It is a thing with its own standard of respect.

Yet when I returned home I took up running - daily jogging along the streets and side roads of my community. As I ran I found those little car flags in the dirt. Why? Because to its owner the object of red and white stripes was merely a decoration to be hung off the car and blown into the dirt at odd times. I don't worship the flag and I've certainly got issues with the Federal government. Flag burning may even be a form of legitimate protest - now made illegal by the same government that tyrannizes more and more of our private activity. But using the flag as a decoration to end up cast into the dirt from neglect - is not something I enjoyed seeing. Yet it happens and that is a thing to be recognized.

Returning to church then, the flag may be assumed to be an object of decoration or a symbol of one's community, but is it a symbol of superiority to Christ, the gospel and the authority of Almighty God?

It is, when in a system of symbolism such as religion, that object is placed in a position of superiority over any and every other symbol.

As to whether the display of a flag in church is immoral, sinful or otherwise inappropriate consider this -
That it is now illegal, immoral and inappropriate to display ANY instance of Christianity or practice of the religion in public.

Which has the greater sin? Tell me, please.

As for me, when the government of my country dishonors and otherwise makes it illegal for me to practice my religion WITHOUT FEAR OF LEGAL REPRISAL, it is time for me to turn my back on the flag. It is not mine any more and if you are at all aware of what is going on in America and are honest with yourself, you'll realize it isn't yours either. It belongs to someone else now.

"To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize."
- Voltaire

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[michaelvpardo]

As for me, when the government of my country dishonors and otherwise makes it illegal for me to practice my religion WITHOUT FEAR OF LEGAL REPRISAL, it is time for me to turn my back on the flag. It is not mine any more and if you are at all aware of what is going on in America and are honest with yourself, you'll realize it isn't yours either. It belongs to someone else now.

"To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize."
- Voltaire

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

Thank you for that testimony. I greatly appreciate your honesty and I know something of the feeling of being betrayed by the nation that I've served. If your heart is with Christ, and I do believe that it is, then keep in mind that He has delivered us from the kingdom of darkness and into His kingdom of light. Don't allow bitterness to weigh down your soul, but go on trusting in Him. We can't change the course of a nation through activism, but our faith and our faithfulness is a testimony to the unbelieving world around us. Only the Lord can change the hearts of men and who knows if He wills to do so here or elsewhere. We were born for days such as these and should we suffer indignities and insult, loss of freedom or loss of life, it will never have been in vain if our Lord remains the hope of our hearts. In perseverance we shall overcome the world, perseverance in our faith, because He has overcome the world. The adversary will see nothing as standing in his way right up until the day that the Lord returns in blazing glory:
The Lord reigns; Let the earth rejoice; Let the multitude of isles be glad! Clouds and darkness surround Him; Righteousness and justice are the foundation of His throne. A fire goes before Him, And burns up His enemies round about. His lightnings light the world; The earth sees and trembles. The mountains melt like wax at the presence of the Lord, At the presence of the Lord of the whole earth. The heavens declare His righteousness, And all the peoples see His glory. Psalms 97:1-6
In the choir loft or on the ground, if you continue to stand you'll surely find yourself standing in good company. The Lord said to Zerubbabel, "Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit, Who are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you shall become a plain!" Did you know that the name "Zerubbabel" means descended from (or born in) Babylon? Our eyes have been witness to terrible things and we will no doubt be witness to even worse before our days have ended, but in the end we'll witness the judgment and behold the glory of the Lord according to His promises, who alone is the Faithful Witness, even Jesus Christ our Lord who lives and reigns forever. Amen.

 

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You may have no "emotional attachment" to the flag and think it "has no meaning", but many people do for there own reasons i.e. immigrants, military persons, former POW's. When the flag is being displayed/flown for certain events it is not done to worship it. It is a symbol of who we are and shows our patriotism. You suggest it is mostly flown as a decoration. You don't know the reason those persons or business's have chosen to fly the flag. I hope it is because they are patriotic. But you are probably right; it is a decoration for a lot of people.

I have failed to understand your questioning of some churches personal choices for displaying the flag in church. It's not immoral, illegal or sinful. It does me or you no harm and takes nothing from our pocket. I think if you were to ask the preacher that has the US flag displayed in their church if they are "placing government over God" or if they believe the US flag has superiority over the Christian flag they would assure you you are mistaken in your opinion.

Since you don't attend a church (I am not judging) you don't have to worry if the US flag is being flown inside any church. If you believe a businesses is only using the flag as a "decoration" and that bothers you, then don't spend your money there.

You say you don't attend church any more, that you are just hollering from your choir loft. The definition of 'choir loft' is "a gallery in a church....". So you are attending church every time you holler

My epigraph of hollering from the choir loft was adopted as a form of protest.

Many years ago I attended seminary, but was summarily dismissed and forbidden from becoming ordained in a major Christian denomination because I insisted that one MUST be saved and/or redeemed in the Name of Jesus Christ. I was told that unless I recanted my faith in Christ I would not be ordained nor would I be allowed to participate in any form of church leadership. Instead, sodomites are today licensed to stand where a disciple of Christ is forbidden to do so.

Since I'm not allowed to use my Master's Degree in Theology to preach from a pulpit, I do it from a figurative choir loft. I WASN'T AWARE I NEED YOUR PERMISSION TO DO SO.

Display of the flag ANYWHERE is particularly odious to me, but showing it in church is especially vulgar. The house of worship and prayer is meant for assembly unto God, not for display of the government standard of allegiance.

I did my duty to the government legal requirement of the day. At the time the draft forced young men to take up arms to defend the policies of our government which were altogether criminal and inhuman. I was permanently injured during that service. Parts of my service were acts that haunt me to this day, but because they were conducted in uniform most citizens, who don't know what our government really stands for, thank me for what we did then. If they knew what we did they wouldn't thank me. If I did it as a civilian on a city street I'd be in prison right now. Instead I'm thanked for it.

So if I enter a church, the one place where one might assume something good and right and holy might be respected, and see the flag of the government of the United States it makes me sick to my stomach.

I DO NOT pledge allegiance to that filthy rag (which represents the government, not the people), do NOT sing the anthem and do NOT honor in any way shape or fashion those of us who served, were injured (as I have been) or were killed in the performance of their illegal inhuman actions. Jesus didn't. Why should I?

According to God's Word I owe taxes where due and obedience to civil law. That's it and that's all. There are no longer any 'rights' as in the Bill of Rights because they were taken away by congressional vote on October 26, 2001. The government of these United States is now a criminal operation from top to bottom. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a deluded fool, which is about 99% of our citizens.

What is the 1st commandment? To love the Lord with ALL one's mind, heart and soul. That's 100% demanded and rightly owed to God.

Do the math. If 100% is owed and gladly given to God, how much is left for the government? ZERO.

Those who do NOT hold God as the most important part of their life put the flag of the government above the kingdom of God. Decoration or not, realization of what it means or not, that IS what it is.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[[email protected]]

Did you write this yourself? It is profound. I no longer will display the flag or subscribe to any church that does.

I cannot claim original authorship of the primary arguments presented here with regard to worship of the flag. I wish I were that clever.

Theologian Francis Schaeffer penned one of the statements I quoted. Several others, who were considered to be meritorious in their day have said the same thing. Several lived in Europe during WWII and warned of the dangers of then emerging Nazism & Communism.

Alexander Solzhenitsyn, a Russian protestor of Communism, once declared, "All these terrible things have come upon us (Russians) because we forgot God."

Dietrich Bonhoeffer was a German pastor who followed his conscience and Jesus Christ in opposition to Hitler. Ultimately he paid with his life.

Richard Wurmbrand was a Rumanian Lutheran pastor who opposed both Nazism & Communism. (I personally met the man many decades ago. He was an amazing fellow who impressed me greatly.) Few men of such caliber now exist in America.

Erwin W. Lutzer, who is still alive I believe, is an American theologian who has published several stark warnings of America's future. A recent sobering book is titled WHEN A NATION FORGETS GOD.

Paul Liberman is a living theologian who published THE FIG TREE BLOSSOMS, a study of the emergence of Messianic Judaism.

Francis Schaeffer, who is no longer with us, published a visionary appeal to Christians in his book THE CHURCH AT THE END OF THE 20TH CENTURY.

There is, of course, the beloved C.S. Lewis who claimed he wasn't a theologian but could convince even the most desperate atheist of the error of their ways.

Such men and such literature are no longer popular in our churches. Instead we focus on motivational ethics. Instead we glamorize our military-industrial complex and its government policies of murder and destruction, both foreign and domestic. The flag of the United States represents the government - NOT our people. "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America ... TO THE REPUBLIC for which it stands.....''

Does the church stand up and pledge allegiance to God according to the 1st commandment? It does not. If 100% of our allegiance is given to God, there's NONE left over for ANY government.

The Christian religion in America no longer supports PEACE.

It is a manifestation of the militaristic autocratic fascist WAR POLICY of a nation now thought to be impervious to harm from either God or man.

IF GOD DOES NOT JUDGE AMERICA HE WILL HAVE TO APOLOGIZE TO SODOM AND GOMORRAH.

Most church leaders in America today are hedonistic opportunists who have one hand on the Bible and the other hand in someone else's pocket (sometimes their pants too).

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...