The dead in Christ shall rise first

[Eric E Stahl]

The dead in Christ shall rise first

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

When a Christian dies our spirit is taken to heaven by the Holy Spirit that has sealed us during our life. He will never leave us nor forsake us so when we go to heaven he will go to heaven with us.

2 Corinthians 5:1-9
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle (((Earthly body))) were dissolved (((Dead))), we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.


When Jesus comes back in the heavens to call up the living Christians the sin nature will be removed from our bodies.


1 Corinthians 15:50:55
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 

[DaDad]

Hi Eric,

#1. Is there a reason you present information without context? Specifically, the dead-in-Christ have a timeline:


A. They do not arise during the Tribulation:

Rev. 20:4
... And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.



B. They arise AFTER the Millennial Kingdom:

Rev. 20:11
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.



#2. Where you assert that when a Christian dies, that Jesus accompanies them:

When a Christian dies our spirit is taken to heaven by the Holy Spirit that has sealed us during our life. He will never leave us nor forsake us so when we go to heaven he will go to heaven with us.

This is completely unfounded. Specifically, while Jesus is on earth during the Millennial Kingdom reign, MANY saints will die. And THEY will go to paradise, but Jesus will remain on earth.




The wise servant should perceive both of these aspects.



With Best Regards,
DD

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

.

That is the way I see it too Eric

Dada .... I dont think Eric was discussing the timing of it , that is a whole different subject , so relax.

 

[DaDad]

.

That is the way I see it too Eric

Dada .... I dont think Eric was discussing the timing of it , that is a whole different subject , so relax.

Hi Ernie,

If Eric proposes that Jesus accompanies the dead to "heaven", then the timing is important. Did you think that Jesus would be wielding his Iron Rod, and then have to stop so that He could escort a dead Christian into "heaven", and then come back, remember where He was when He was so rudely interrupted (and apologize to the person of his previous attentions), and then continue wielding his Iron Rod?


And Arnie, you might have had a "Dada", but it's "DaDad".


With Best Regards

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

dadad there are already endless unresolved threads on the timing argument.
this thread should not be derailed into becoming another one of them
that was my point.
but it may be too late now.
stop

 

[rockytopva]

The coming of Christ is to happen in everyday times, unlooked for, like in the times of Noah and Lot. If it were anything but pre-trib it would be rather announced would it not? We could put our watch on the reign of the anti-Christ and know to the date its timing.

 

[Eric E Stahl]

Hi Eric,

#1. Is there a reason you present information without context? Specifically, the dead-in-Christ have a timeline:


A. They do not arise during the Tribulation:

Rev. 20:4
... And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.



B. They arise AFTER the Millennial Kingdom:

Rev. 20:11
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.



#2. Where you assert that when a Christian dies, that Jesus accompanies them:


This is completely unfounded. Specifically, while Jesus is on earth during the Millennial Kingdom reign, MANY saints will die. And THEY will go to paradise, but Jesus will remain on earth.




The wise servant should perceive both of these aspects.



With Best Regards,
DD

DD,
It is the Holy Spirit that seals us during our life down here and he will accompany us to heaven because he will never leave us nor forsake us. Remember Jesus is in heaven.

Jesus did take the Old Testament saints to heaven when he went back to heaven. Ephesians 4:8

Eric

 

[Rocky Wiley]

Eric,
I believe what you have posted, for the gift of the Holy Ghost is eternal life.
Another prophecy by Jesus fulfilled.
Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Mat 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
Mat 19:30 But many that are[SIZE=12pt] first shall be last[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]; and the last [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]shall be[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] first. [/SIZE]
Those that were last were the disciples, and Jesus said they would judge the twelve tribes of Israel.

One more prophecy of Jesus' that was fulfilled was that their generation would not pass away.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
(Speaking to his disciples, this generation(theirs) shall not pass.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw[SIZE=12pt] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] neither his image, neither had received [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]his[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [/SIZE]

Those that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus was those disciples.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Rocky Wiley.

[SIZE=12pt]Eric,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]I believe what you have posted, for the gift of the Holy Ghost is eternal life. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Another prophecy by Jesus fulfilled.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Mat 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Mat 19:30 But many that are[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] first shall be last[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]; and the last [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]shall be[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] first. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Those that were last were the disciples, and Jesus said they would judge the twelve tribes of Israel. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]One more prophecy of Jesus' that was fulfilled was that their generation would not pass away.[/SIZE]
Mat 24:34[SIZE=12pt] Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](Speaking to his disciples, this generation(theirs) shall not pass.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] neither his image, neither had received [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]his[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Those that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus was those disciples.[/SIZE]

Actually, it WASN'T the disciples who were last. Yeshua` explained what He meant in the very next set of verses in the next chapter:

Matthew 20:1-16
20 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.
2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.
5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.
6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.
8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.
9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,
12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
KJV

He said that the LAST ones hired received their wages FIRST, and the FIRST ones hired received their wages LAST! THAT'S what the phrase means!


Secondly, you need to read Matthew 24:34 IN ITS CONTEXT!

Matthew 24:29-39
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
KJV

Sorry, but "the Son of Man," Yeshua` the Messiah, has NOT come in such a fashion, yet!

 

[Rocky Wiley]

Shalom, Rocky Wiley.


Actually, it WASN'T the disciples who were last. Yeshua` explained what He meant in the very next set of verses in the next chapter:

16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
KJV

He said that the LAST ones hired received their wages FIRST, and the FIRST ones hired received their wages LAST! THAT'S what the phrase means!


Sorry, but "the Son of Man," Yeshua` the Messiah, has NOT come in such a fashion, yet!

Hey retro,
The topic is:
The dead in Christ shall rise first! They were the last of those that served God under law and the first to be resurrected.

In the scriptures I posted shows that those that had been witnesses for Jesus wete sitting around the throne judging the Jews.
Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
(thousand in Greek does not mean a thousand, it is an unknown quantity. We know that it was just a few years before the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple at the time of writing.)

Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?(age)

As Jews, the disciples understood that the destruction of the temple meant the end of the age. I won’t give you the slack I give the Gentiles, since you were raised as a Jew, and should know the Old Testament very well and also know that the Jews of Jesus’ time were expecting their Messiah. After Jesus was crucified there were many that came claiming to be the Messiah and of course were proven not to be.

The proof that Jesus is the Messiah is the fact that he is still giving the gift of the Holy Ghost which he had promised to those that believed and were born again of the water and the Spirit. The Jews were blinded at that time but that blindness was lifted when he returned, or was suppose to have been.

Don’t keep saying that I am wrong when I quote scripture for proof. God can not lie. Man has changed his word into lies when they made ‘this to mean that” Mar 8:12 Luk 11:30 Luk 11:50,11:51 Luk 21:32 when they say “I say unto you” means he was speaking to us instead of them Mat 16:28 or when it says “I come shortly, I come quickly or the time is at hand” to mean thousand of years from the time it had been written as if it had not been written to those that lived in that time but was intended for our generation . Rev_2:5 Rev_2:16 Rev_3:11 Rev_22:7 Rev_22:12 Rev_22:20


The Old Testament was written to the Jews. Jesus came to the Jews. The Jews received him not. Only then did the disciples begin to preach to the Gentiles, which also confirms scripture when God told Abraham he would be the father of many nations. It also states that in the new Jerusalem there would be no more sea (no seperation of the Jews and Gentiles) another proof the end of the age for the Jews only has come to an end.

Rev_21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Heaven and earth referred to the covenant between God and man. Old with the Jews only, the New with Jews and Gentiles together.

The New Testament was written to the early churches or early Christians not to us. We have the Word of God today so that we might understand what happened in those days, not what might happen in our generation or a much later generation.

To believe that Jesus has not set up his kingdom means you believe that Gentiles are not the children of Abraham or that we are even under the new covenant. That, my friend, is not true for I am a born again Christian who is filled with the Holy Ghost and that would not be possible under the old covenant.




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