The Divine Exchange

[1stCenturyLady]

You dont walk "according to the SPIRIT" by trying to keep commandments, and by trying to "be like Christ" = as those are WORKS of SELF EFFORT.

SELF is not a part of THE SPIRIT.
SELF is the carnal mind that wars against the Spirit.

So, to walk according to the HOLY SPIRIT, is with the UNDERSTANDING that is the RENEWED MIND.

Its to see yourself as a "new creation in Christ", and never again, as a saved sinner.

God looks at the born again, and sees the BORN AGAIN SPIRIT, that is the SON/Daughter of God.

That is how you walk according to the Spirit.....>You learn to see yourself as God sees you, and not as anything BUT that...
Only That, as that is the "renewed mind".

I agree totally and what I've been teaching.

 

[Behold]

I agree totally and what I've been teaching.

The renewed mind.... the mind of Christ....walking IN the Spirit.

Its all the same thing.

Its simple to SEE when you see it..... ...= ."how does GOD see me now that the real me is a born again Spirit".

He sees us as a "NEW CREATION">.....not in a body that is dead because of sin.....but= IN CHRIST !!

We must have this "same mind"....>Paul teaches.

This is why there are 40,000 denominations, and endless yelling on forums.

There is no ONE MIND in the Body of Christ, that sees what GOD sees...when he looks at us....the born again.
If even .05 % of Christians can understand, what i just taught, i would be surprised.

Christians dont SEE themselves as GOD SEES them.... and that is most of the issue, which causes most of their discipleship failure.

Hebrews 13:9 says we are to ground ourselves not in our SELF attempt to be like Christ, but to ground our heart/ourselves in God's GRACE.

Salvation does not have to be completed by us.....It only has to be received by us, as Jesus completed it on the Cross 200O yrs ago, and to understand this is to begin to Grow IN : GRACE.

 

[Phoneman777]

The Grace of God , or what Paul says is "my Gospel", is the truth.

I disagree. What you preach is not "grace" but "disgrace" - by making the grace of God a license to sin. What is a "license" but something that allows the Licensed to go free for doing the exact same thing for which the Unlicensed is punished? There's nothing anyone can say against this argument. Nothing.

It's unwelcome, unpopular, unsettling, but y'all know full well every word it true, and if you'd set aside emotionalism and bigotry, you'd repeat after me: "Grace allows the Christian to escape the same punishment for doing the exact same thing for which the sinner will be punished."

This Gospel, which is THE Gospel, explains that Jesus is the Savior, and there is none other, as Christ's death and resurrection prove HIM to be True.

That's not the part you get wrong. Please get to the part where you go wrong.

There is no such thing, no such group as OSAS.
There is no book, no video online, no church, no denomination that teaches "license to sin".

Anyone who claims grace allows the Christian to escape the same punishment for doing the exact same thing for which the sinner will be punished - which is what you preach - is turning grace into a OSAS License to Sin!

There is the Cult of OSAS, that you belong to...Phonemann777....

Really? You mustn't have read a single thing I've written. I'm Conditional Salvationist through and through.

who state this imaginary "license to sin" idea, that tries to castigate real Believers, while it also subverts the Grace of God into a "work to keep yourself saved", Anti Cross Heresy.

It' ain't imaginary at all...it's one of the most popular teachings on the planet.

The Bible warns in the last days of church folks who don't want the truth but instead "smoooooth sayings". What could be any more smooooooooth a saying than to tell people they may continue breaking God's commandments and still go to heaven, with only a few less jewels in their crown?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

The renewed mind.... the mind of Christ....walking IN the Spirit.

Its all the same thing.

Its simple to SEE when you see it..... ...= ."how does GOD see me now that the real me is a born again Spirit".

He sees us as a "NEW CREATION">.....not in a body that is dead because of sin.....but= IN CHRIST !!

We must have this "same mind"....>Paul teaches.

This is why there are 40,000 denomination, and endless yelling on forums.

There is no ONE MIND in the Body of Christ, that sees what GOD sees...when he looks at us....the born again.
If even .05 % of Christians can understand, what i just taught, i would be surprised.

Christians dont SEE themselves as GOD SEES them.... and that is most of the issue, which causes most of their discipleship failure.

Hebrews 13:9 says we are to ground ourselves not in our SELF attempt to be like Christ, but to ground our heart/ourselves in God's GRACE.

Salvation does not have to be completed by us.....It only has to be received by us, as Jesus completed it on the Cross 200O yrs ago, and to understand this is to begin to Grow IN : GRACE.

I agree with this too. You seem to now be wording your posts more understandably. Yay! This is incredible. We've been teaching the same thing all this time.

In the past you haven't explained what you mean by "You don't walk "according to the SPIRIT" by trying to keep commandments, and by trying to "be like Christ" = as those are WORKS of SELF EFFORT." Left like that it seemed to me to be teaching a license to sin by not keeping the commandments, but it appears you aren't. Good. Just remember to teach we do keep the commandments written on our hearts just like Jesus did, and by His Spirit. I break it down by telling my students to never do anything against their conscience. That will quench the Spirit, and grow the fruit of the Spirit. 1 John 3:21-24, 2 Peter 1:5-11. I've also enjoyed 1 John 3:22 having all my prayers answered for the past 45 years.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I disagree. What you preach is not "grace" but "disgrace" - by making the grace of God a license to sin.

I had thought so too for years. But I see in the last posts that he teaches the same thing I do, which is the opposite of a license to sin, but to do as Christ did with the mind of Christ. Read his posts to me #40 and #42 and lets all discuss these together, civilly this time. Start over.

He's in Israel and left at 5:29, so let's you and I discuss this as I know now that he has been teaching what I teach. He sometimes worded things in such a way that I too thought he was teaching a license to sin. Let me untangle your thinking. What do you hear him saying, and I'll translate for him. LOL

Oh, fudge! It looks like you left too, I imagine for the Sabbath. Okay, talk to you both later.



cc: @Behold.

 

[Phoneman777]

I had thought so too for years. But I see in the last posts that he teaches the same thing I do, which is the opposite of a license to sin, but to do as Christ did with the mind of Christ. Read his posts to me #40 and #42 and lets all discuss these together, civilly this time. Start over.

He's in Israel and left at 5:29, so let's you and I discuss this as I know now that he has been teaching what I teach. He sometimes worded things in such a way that I too thought he was teaching a license to sin. Let me untangle your thinking. What do you hear him saying, and I'll translate for him. LOL

Oh, fudge! It looks like you left too, I imagine for the Sabbath. Okay, talk to you both later.

I think my analysis of what he teaches is spot on: that grace is a License to Sin...because if grace allows the Christian to escape punishment for doing the exact same thing for which the sinner will be punished, then that's the textbook definition of what a "license" is, right or wrong?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I think my analysis of what he teaches is spot on: that grace is a License to Sin...because if grace allows the Christian to escape punishment for doing the exact same thing for which the sinner will be punished, then that's the textbook definition of what a "license" is, right or wrong?

I thought he taught that too for years, but he doesn't. Did you read the posts I gave you of what he believes. Read #40 and #42 and lets discuss those.

BTW, what do you believe grace is? Come to think of it, I'm not sure what his 'definition' is. Mine is grace is the divine power of God given to us to not commit sin, but have the mind of Christ who is full of grace and truth.

 

[Phoneman777]

I thought he taught that too for years, but he doesn't. Did you read the posts I gave you of what he believes. Read #40 and #42 and lets discuss those.

BTW, what do you believe grace is? Come to think of it, I'm not sure what his 'definition' is. Mine is grace is the divine power of God given to us to not commit sin, but have the mind of Christ who is full of grace and truth.

Whoever said this said it best:
"Grace is God giving us what we don't deserve and Mercy is God not giving us what we indeed deserve."

My head elder's wife taught me years ago that Grace is both Pardon for sin and Power to obey, perhaps the most profound thing I've ever learned. The OSAS crowd teaches Grace is pardon for sin, even those from which we refuse to repent - which ain't Biblical, seeing there are numerous Biblical examples of those who accepted forgiveness for their sins, but wind up lost.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Did you read the posts

@Behold once said that just reading the Bible wouldn’t do one any good.

He is a Paul-onlyist as well.

He has said some very unbiblical things also. He also said that a born again’s sins aren’t considered sins in God’s eyes, just “works of the flesh”.

That’s absolute unbiblical nonsense.

 

[Behold]

I'm Conditional Salvationist through and through.

You are a "conditional salvationist".

Well, im not. Im a Born Again Christian.

And you are not acquainted with what i teach regarding sin and the believer, and are just running your mouth without a clue, Phonemann777.
So, i'll show you exactly what i teach regarding a believer who decides to live carnally, subsequent to being born again.

Take a good look, deceived one., as this my Thread on the Topic.

-
-

Here is what happens to the Christian who lives in SIN.

1st) your body is "dead because of sin" and your "Old man is crucified with Christ".

So, as that is the TRUTH regarding a "new Creation in Christ"...then... what is available for the LAW to condemn, regarding a "sinning Christian"?

See, your SPIRIT< which is the real you, is "In Christ" "One with God" if you are born again, and not just water baptized thinking you are saved.

Notice Romans 4:8. Paul teaches that God does not charge SIN against/to the Born again.
Why?
He can't, as He has already Judged CHRIST on the CROSS for them all.
God does not "double judge".... He does not judge a born again believer for sin that Jesus has DIED FOR already, 2000 yrs ago.

So, when a sincere believer, who is studying the word, and is learning about what it means to become a "new creation in Christ" and they find out that their SIN is gone, and their Judgment due them is on JESUS 2000 yrs ago.... the devil comes to them, through a person, or to their mind and says...>>"They are telling you that you can sin and there is no consequence, because Jesus paid for it all". "so, you can live like the devil"..

See that? THAT is how the DEVIL works. He is always trying to CONFUSE TRUTH with somethig that sounds true, but is just a very CLEVER LIE.

And here is the answer to that LIAR...

ALL SIN is resolved by JESUS's on the Cross. 2 Corinthinians 5:19. """"God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their SIN unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.""""

So, there go your sins. = Jesus bore them all.......IF you are born again.

Now, if you decide to live in the flesh, and continually commit works of the flesh.
Here is what happens.
Your faith will become DEAD, and "christian stuff" will become completely unimportant to you as you mind slides deeper and deeper into "darkness".
THEN....
You will begin to suffer down here.
The hardships and the hurt will come and come and come and won't stop harming you.
You'll lose everything, eventually.....including your health, and if you still wont stop and turn back to GOD, even after God corrects you time after time, .. Paul says you will DIE.

So, there is you EARTHLY consequence for "living in sin, as a Christian"....as that is what is known as "sowing and reaping"., and "your sin will find you out".... and that is a spiritual law that is not taken away by The Cross of Christ, or by "being under Grace".
However, that is not God judging you for sin, as He has already judged JESUS for them all...on the Cross.
Be sure you understand that distinction.

 

[Phoneman777]

You are a "conditional salvationist". Well, im not. Im a Born Again Christian.

These are not mutually exclusive, friend, but intrinsic to Bible Christianity.

And you are not acquainted with what i teach regarding sin and the believer, and are just running your mouth without a clue, Phonemann777.
So, i'll show you exactly what i teach regarding a believer who decides to live carnally, subsequent to being born again.

Actually, I'm well acquainted with your position.

Take a good look, deceived one., as this my Thread on the Topic.
Here is what happens to the Christian who lives in SIN.
1st) your body is "dead because of sin" and your "Old man is crucified with Christ".
So, as that is the TRUTH regarding a "new Creation in Christ"...then... what is available for the LAW to condemn, regarding a "sinning Christian"?
See, your SPIRIT< which is the real you, is "In Christ" "One with God" if you are born again, and not just water baptized thinking you are saved.
Notice Romans 4:8. Paul teaches that God does not charge SIN against/to the Born again.
Why?
He can't, as He has already Judged CHRIST on the CROSS for them all.
God does not "double judge".... He does not judge a born again believer for sin that Jesus has DIED FOR already, 2000 yrs ago.
So, when a sincere believer, who is studying the word, and is learning about what it means to become a "new creation in Christ" and they find out that their SIN is gone, and their Judgment due them is on JESUS 2000 yrs ago.... the devil comes to them, through a person, or to their mind and says...>>"They are telling you that you can sin and there is no consequence, because Jesus paid for it all". "so, you can live like the devil"..
See that? THAT is how the DEVIL works. He is always trying to CONFUSE TRUTH with somethig that sounds true, but is just a very CLEVER LIE.
And here is the answer to that LIAR...
ALL SIN is resolved by JESUS's on the Cross. 2 Corinthinians 5:19. """"God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their SIN unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.""""
So, there go your sins. = Jesus bore them all.......IF you are born again.
Now, if you decide to live in the flesh, and continually commit works of the flesh.
Here is what happens.
Your faith will become DEAD, and "christian stuff" will become completely unimportant to you as you mind slides deeper and deeper into "darkness".
THEN....
You will begin to suffer down here.
The hardships and the hurt will come and come and come and won't stop harming you.
You'll lose everything, eventually.....including your health, and if you still wont stop and turn back to GOD, even after God corrects you time after time, .. Paul says you will DIE.

So, there is you EARTHLY consequence for "living in sin, as a Christian"....as that is what is known as "sowing and reaping"., and "your sin will find you out".... and that is a spiritual law that is not taken away by The Cross of Christ, or by "being under Grace".
However, that is not God judging you for sin, as He has already judged JESUS for them all...on the Cross.
Be sure you understand that distinction.

I don't need your crash course on this particular brand of heresy, OK? I'm already full acquainted with it.

You're twisting Paul's words to mean since we're "saved", God will no longer charge us with guilt for doing the exact same thing that condemns the sinner - bulldookey...because your entire "gospel" is devoid of the one, integral, foundational principle upon which the rest of it rests: repentance.

Your false "gospel" makes repentance optional. Paul speaks of "sins that are past", which isn't referring to your twisted, popular idea of "sins we continue to commit that are now past the point of having the power to condemn us" -- it means "sins which are past because we no longer commit them".

You most definitely preach, "In me, salvation effects no change, just God's opinion of my sin that remains".

 

[Behold]

These are not mutually exclusive, friend, .

You have defined yourself according to your cult.

"limited salvationist".

I appreciate you doing that as most dark lights won't be as honest about themselves.

You have, of your own volition, "outed yourself", and now the real believers know whom else to avoid.
Most of you, try to hide, dodge, and pretend to be clever, but you just stepped into the light and pronounced.. "CULT".

Thx.

 

[Phoneman777]

You have defined yourself according to your cult.

"limited salvationist".

I appreciate you doing that as most dark lights won't be as honest about themselves.

You have, of your own volition, "outed yourself", and now the real believers know whom else to avoid.
Most of you, try to hide, dodge, and pretend to be clever, but you just stepped into the light and pronounced.. "CULT".

Thx.

I prefer "conditional", not "limited". Because salvation is able to cover "all manner of sin and blasphemy" without limitation. It, however, is only available on one condition: repentance...to which the goodness of God leads, right or wrong?

And, since it's possible to fall away and render oneself incapable of being "renewed again unto repentance", what does that say about the "Gospel" you preach? It is nothing more than an unBiblical OSAS License to Sin false gospel which scratches the itchy ears of the pew-warming slave to sin.

 

[Behold]

I prefer "conditional", not "limited".

"ALL" that call on the name of the Lord, shall be saved".

1 Timothy 2:4 teaches that God wants everyone to be saved.

If he only wants "the elect" then tear those 2 verses out of your bible.

John 3:16 says that God so loved the WORLD (Of people) that He gave His son to them.....and not just to the elect.


So, tear that one out of your bible as well, and just keep running with Calvin's Heresy, instead, if that is your FREE WILL Choice.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Whoever said this said it best:
"Grace is God giving us what we don't deserve and Mercy is God not giving us what we indeed deserve."

My head elder's wife taught me years ago that Grace is both Pardon for sin and Power to obey, perhaps the most profound thing I've ever learned. The OSAS crowd teaches Grace is pardon for sin, even those from which we refuse to repent - which ain't Biblical, seeing there are numerous Biblical examples of those who accepted forgiveness for their sins, but wind up lost.

I would say they are both right with a little tweaking to make grace absolutely scriptural.

When one first comes to Christ, Grace is God giving us what we don't deserve and Mercy is God not giving us what we indeed deserve. God pardons our past sins 2 Peter 1:9, and takes away the desire to sin again, 1 John 3:5 filling us with His Spirit giving us power to easily obey from His divine nature. 2 Peter 1:2-4

 

[Behold]

I would say they are both right with a little tweaking to make grace absolutely scriptural.

You would "tweek Grace" to teach that God does not keep you saved the SAME WAY ... John 14:6..... that you were saved to begin with?

That's your "tweek'?

That "TwEEK"< denies Grace, as it demonicaly shifts the responsibility for Salvation, from Christ ..unto the Believer.
That is LEGALISM, pretending to be a "tweek".

So, that "tweek" nails the BELIEVER to the CROSS, and RIPS Christ the Redeemer, off the Cross.

Your self righteous "TWEEK"< is not related to Paul's Gospel.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

And, since it's possible to fall away and render oneself incapable of being "renewed again unto repentance", what does that say about the "Gospel" you preach? It is nothing more than an unBiblical OSAS License to Sin false gospel which scratches the itchy ears of the pew-warming slave to sin.

You're right about OSAS but wrong about Behold believing in it.

There is no such thing, no such group as OSAS.
There is no book, no video online, no church, no denomination that teaches "license to sin"..
There is the Cult of OSAS, that you belong to...Phonemann777.... who state this imaginary "license to sin" idea, that tries to castigate real Believers, while it also subverts the Grace of God into a "work to keep yourself saved", Anti Cross Heresy.

You are both wrongly accusing one another of believing in OSAS, when neither of you do. Do either of you actually read each other's posts, or just like flinging manure at each other for fun.

BTW, guys: "I die daily" means Paul lives in peril of his life daily for preaching the gospel of Christ, but he continues daily.

1 Corinthians 15:
30 And why do we stand in jeopardy every hour? 31 I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

Also, Phoneman, what you were talking about as if Paul was struggling with sin and his flesh is from Romans 7 out of context, which 14-25 is before Christ takes away the desire to sin and the New Covenant of the Spirit, verses 4-5; 14-25 was going back to what it was life before Christ when the Jews only had the law to guide them, but they retained their sin nature to try to keep it.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

You would "tweek Grace" to teach that God does not keep you saved the SAME WAY ... John 14:6..... that you were saved to begin with?

That's your "tweek'?

That "TwEEK"< denies Grace, as it demonicaly shifts the responsibility for Salvation, from Christ ..unto the Believer.
That is LEGALISM, pretending to be a "tweek".

So, that "tweek" nails the BELIEVER to the CROSS, and RIPS Christ the Redeemer, off the Cross.

Your self righteous "TWEEK"< is not related to Paul's Gospel.

Did you understand my tweak?

When one first comes to Christ, Grace is God giving us what we don't deserve and Mercy is God not giving us what we indeed deserve. God pardons our past sins 2 Peter 1:9, and takes away the desire to sin again, 1 John 3:5 filling us with His Spirit giving us power to easily obey from His divine nature. 2 Peter 1:2-4

Behold, we have been agreeing. Don't spoil it now by lying. A half-truth is a full-lie. How is taking away the desire to sin not keeping us saved? How is filling us with His Spirit and giving us power not keeping us saved. Do you think we can easily go against our new conscience that He gave us to keep us obedient to Him of our own doing, or of God? Do you honestly believe that believing in Christ is a WORK of self-righteousness??? John 3:16

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I don't need your crash course on this particular brand of heresy, OK? I'm already full acquainted with it.

You're twisting Paul's words to mean since we're "saved", God will no longer charge us with guilt for doing the exact same thing that condemns the sinner - bulldookey...because your entire "gospel" is devoid of the one, integral, foundational principle upon which the rest of it rests: repentance.

Did you read this part, or none.

Behold:
Now, if you decide to live in the flesh, and continually commit works of the flesh.
Here is what happens.
Your faith will become DEAD, and "christian stuff" will become completely unimportant to you as you mind slides deeper and deeper into "darkness".
THEN....
You will begin to suffer down here.
The hardships and the hurt will come and come and come and won't stop harming you.
You'll lose everything, eventually.....including your health, and if you still wont stop and turn back to GOD, even after God corrects you time after time, .. Paul says you will DIE.

That is eternal death, not physical death. The wages of sin is death. To me, Behold is agreeing with conditional salvation, but would never seem to agree with you, nor you him. MEN!

 

[Behold]

To me, Behold is agreeing with conditional salvation,

There is no such thing as temporary Eternal Life, and every born again believer has Eternal Life.
= Completed Salvation.... its a GIFT.
How do we know? Because JESUS is Eternal life, and He exist's in Spiritual Union with the born again Spirit in every Born again person.
So.....SPIRITUAL UNION WITH GOD< THROUGH CHRIST's CROSS, is not based on how you behave later. And that is what carnal pretenders who want to relegate God's Grace as.... ""Its only as good as your behavior""", teach and preach, to try to deceive people out of Real Faith.

Salvation is JESUS< so that ends all discussion of "can you lose it", unless your brain is just dead, and your comprehension is worse.

OPPPS< today i lost my faith and JESUS walked out of my spirit.

C'mon....... that can't happen.

Jesus told the born again that "I WILL NEVER LEAVE YOU".. .and He is on the inside of you.
So, if you want to say...>"but i can leave Him"< then you are not understanding "Spiritual UNION"...>"CHRIST IN YOU, the Hope of Glory".. or "ONE WITH GOD", the born again have become.

I could literally take an Atheist, or a 7 yrs old child.... and say.....>"Christ on the Cross is Why God accepted ME", and They would understand this, perfectly.
As they understand SUBSTITUTION......as "dying in my place" so that i can go FREE...

The born again get to go to heaven because Jesus went to the Cross to allow it.
= Welcome to SALVATION...
So...How difficult is that to understand, yet, how many on Forums DO NOT, and WONT..
Its remarkable how deception can keep a person from even simple truth....the most BASIC.

But a Calvinist,.....and similar, who first of all can't ever understand that JESUS is SALVATiON... and if you have HIM IN YOU, that is the FINAL ANSWER......so, as they stumble on that Truth, how can they understand anything else in the NT?
They Can't.
But they can post verses they can't understand...and RANT about self effort and confessing sin and commandments, but can they understand the Blood Atonement?
NEVER !
Can they understand that Christ said He will never leave the Born again, because He has joined Himself to their Spirit?
They can NOT understand this, because a stronghold in the mind that is their SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS< has them MIND BLINDED.
And that is what the Devil does, and He's the Master of this situation.
He'll use people, the bible, and your own pride to keep you away from the understanding of GOD's GRACE.