So Ezekiel's temple is also literal then? Is it a place of worship where people gather to worship God?
THE END OF THE PREMIL/AMIL DEBATE
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Amen! An Excellent And Very Encouraging Bible study,
Comparing Scripture With Scripture!! (1 Corinthians 2:13)
Truth7t7
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Ezekiel chapters 40-46 represents the 2nd Zerubbabel Temple built in 536BC after the Babylonian Captivity
Ezekiel Chapters 47-48 represents the (Eternal Kingdom) in the New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem
Truth7t7
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Ezekiel Chapters 47-48 represents the (Eternal Kingdom) in the New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, its parallel teaching is seen in Revelation Chapters 21-22
Timtofly
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There are no sheep nations that are righteous. All nations will be sent to the lake of fire, if that is your take away.
Timtofly
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Are you sure that is literal and not symbolic? You just claimed the chapter before was only symbolic and spiritual. Why do you get to pick and choose, what is and what is not ?
Timtofly
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Jesus Christ is already on earth, waiting for this event. You have not shown where Jesus Christ comes down.
Truth7t7
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It appears your ripe and ready for the future Antichrist, who will be revealed in Jerusalem
Many claim Jesus will literally return and rule "On This Earth" In A Millennium this being false in deception
Jesus warned his followers against this teaching, Jesus wont be found anywhere upon this earth as many claim
The Antichrist will be in Jerusalem, claiming to be Messiah Returned, "Beware"!
"Believe It Not" "Go Not Forth"
Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Naomi25
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Forgive me…I can’t quite help myself jumping in at this point, even though some excellent ideas have been put forth by all parties…
Did you not just finish criticising Amillennialists for “assigning symbolism” to much of Revelation (and I would personally hesitate at your usage of “much”), and yet not two posts later, here you are…finding symbolism in the book. One does wonder if pressed a little on many of the images used within Revelation, if, contrary to your complaint, you would also confess the continued use of symbolism. Or…should we expect the churches to actually be lampstands…our Lord to be both lion and Lamb. Our enemy tone a great red dragon and for a woman to be seen giving birth in the night sky…
Ronald David Bruno
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Most of Revelation is to taken literally. Obviously there is some symbolism. We know who Jesus is with many symbolic references used to describe Him throughout scripture. At least most of us know who the Church is. Cornerstone btw is not in Revelation but used about 11 times in scripture. All the events in the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls.
Oh, and I forgive you.
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Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
May I suggest you try reading the Bible, and actually believing what it says?
Maranatha
Naomi25
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Ok…so, here’s my beef. People like me get accused of ‘over symbolising’ Revelation ALL the time. People like you do most of that criticising. However…when you do the symbolising, it’s just normal, obvious symbolising. Yeah?
Except…I’m not sure that I see anything other than the ‘normal’ ones either.
Ok…the lampstands…clearly the church. Jesus…check…obvious. Satan…no-brainer. Beasts, Pregnant lady in the sky, another multi-coloured woman riding another beast…pretty safe in concluding those are symbols too, yeah?
But here’s where it starts getting tricky. I read “abyss opens and demons hoards come out to torment the earth”…and I think…those are demons. And yet, many folks on the “don’t see symbols” side start yelling that these have to be helicopters. With women flying them.
I mean…huh? Somebody took a wrong turn somewhere.
Earthquakes and natural disasters. Okay…I can dig that these are, or certainly could be, literal. I mean…we do have biblical precedent in the OT of the catastrophic fall of nations described in terms like this “the sun and stars not giving light” (Is 13)…”the sky roll up like a scroll” (Is 34) that sort of thing. But let’s leave it as open at the moment.
The mark of the beast? This is a big one, I know…we get into a lot of trouble over this one. But…not one Dispensationalists has ever satisfactorily answered me this: both Deut 6:8 and 11:18 speak of fixing God’s word to your hand and forehead. And it’s not talking about actually binding books to your head or hand. It’s talking about so taking to heart, so memorising and loving God’s word, that it becomes your guiding light and love in life. IT is your beacon of choice, nothing else.
So when we come to this “mark”, which scripture tells us will be on our ‘forehead or hand’…why are we NOT supposed to look back to OTHER scripture and link the two passages and suppose there is something there for us to learn? To understand? Why are we to just assume that it HAS to be some technology the bible had never seen or known about that would control our every move/purchase? One seems intuitive to me, the other assumptive.
I mean, don’t get me wrong, if you can explain why I ought to jettison the biblical comparison over the future tech one, fine. And I’m not even against the idea that the two cannot be integrative. But I’d like a little recognition that seeing the link to the OT isn’t “over symbolising craziness”.
One hopes your forgiveness is ongoing…
Ronald David Bruno
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LoL ... lots.
First of all, I love your tenacious sarcasm! I have been laughing through your whole post. I have been accused a sarcasm a bit in my day. This book can be frustrating ... hopefully not too much to tip you over the edge ... hold onto something.
So far ....symbolic references but mistly about the future except for the Seven Letters to the Seven Churches that existed towards the end of the first century.
No, those are demon locusts that sting and torture mankind for five months - literally. We haven't seen those around in any zoos. Those are a special surprise treat for all the ungodly ... and they thought Freddy Cruger was mean.
Good, reality, a breath of fresh air.
Smoke from WWIII in the mjddke east with 1/3 of the planet in fure blocks out sunlight - can you dig that?
Watch a nuclear explosion video. The clouds roll up light a scroll - literally.
I agree that the mark of Gid is iur belief and love of God in our hearta and our actions. It's spiritual. But the mark of the beast is something physical, because you won't be able to buy or sell unless you have one. And this vaccine with all its nano-technology and Luciferase will just light up the new 5G phones and recognize those who have taken it.
Look back and then look forward.
Pray, ask for the Holy Spirit's guidance to understand and take your time. Be anxious for nothing. I have studied Revelation for decades. I do believe in a coming Millennail Kingdom. I have another thread on this topic.
The Millennial Kingdom
Naomi25
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What’s life without a little sarcasm, huh? I probably tend to use it too much, but I suppose we all have our flaws.
Agreed. And, I would add…that there must be at least some sort of importance for the rest of the book FOR the audience of those 7 letters, do you not think? That John (or Jesus), in addressing the whole book TO these 7 churches, even if the events described in them can be argued to be far in the future…we must still allow that the intended audience would gain more than just ‘time capsule recipients’ for the rest of the book beyond the contents of Chapters 1-4.
We can agree that these are demons…they come from the ‘bottomless pit’. That they are ‘locust demons’ is…well, I suppose based upon semantics. That they act like locusts is clear, and yes, they are called that. However, HOW they are described is what makes these ‘locusts’ remarkable, and highlights their demonic natures. They are composite creatures, or Chimeras, if you will. They are made up of varying different animal and even human elements. This is something that we have seen before in angelic visage…and demons are just fallen angels.
There appearance is interesting, I suppose, and it certainly serves to highlight for us that these creatures are not normal or natural, they are demonic. But beyond that, I don’t rightly know that the text clearly affirms if this ‘torment’ will be visible or not. One could argue that, just as they are now, demons torment humans from a realm that is not seen. Their influence is still very readily felt…the torment real.
I…am not dogmatic either way. I see that argument and acknowledge it. But I also see the legitimacy in the idea that part of the judgment is people knowing where this torment is coming from. Although not directly stated in this chapter, or perhaps anywhere, it can be reasonably argued that many of the ‘judgments’ or catastrophic events which befall the earth and mankind are done with the direct intent of displaying God’s wrath and righteous judgment against the wicked. If the torment from these creatures were just to appear on earth as an ‘affliction’ that lasted a certain amount of time…as terrible as it may be, it would hardly be directly attributed to God or his judgment. We see that in the current Covid crisis…it’s turned the world on its head, but none see the hand of God…or conversely, demonic influence.
You might be surprised what I dig.
And indeed…I am not denying that references to the sky rolling up like a scroll and the heavens being shaken could be a literal reference to cosmic events of catastrophic proportions. In fact, I watch the news with interest and refuse to count it out.
However, as a bible believer, I also feel it is right to look at passages in the OT were such phrases are used and comets did NOT fall from the sky. The sun did continue to shine. It was just a linguistic tact the author used to described massive events. I would be like, I suppose, someone saying “the sky is falling”. It symbolically means ‘an apocalyptic end is upon us!’, but we all know (if we are not chicken little) that the sky is not literally falling. It just means catastrophic events are happening that will understandably change the world we are living in. 911 was a ‘sky is falling’ day and event. In historical times, when Babylon fell, that was a ‘sky is falling’ event…a ‘sky is rolling up and the heavens being shaken’ event.
I’m not saying the use of this language in Revelation must be seen in this way, I’m just saying that as bible believers we should not dismiss it, as we can see it being used by God elsewhere in his word. We ought, before we start condemning people for how they see it, I think, ask ourselves why the Spirit had his prophets use these phrases the first time (OT), and why he might have repeated them so often in Revelation.
The answer might even lie in harmonising the two; the Prophets used symbolic language to describe catastrophic events the first time because it was foreshadowing the very last, final catastrophic events on earths stage…ones that had both symbolic and literal fulfilment.
Something to think on, maybe?
Hmm. Okay. So…let me ask you some things in all openness. If scripture leads us to openly conclude that God’s mark is belief in heart and actions…corresponding with forehead and hand…why and where do we think we can just assume that the ‘mark’ of the beast will be so different? I know you’re first answer will be “buying and selling”…I’m afraid I don’t find that a significantly sufficient answer. Let me explain why: In both Rev 13 and 20, when the mark of the beast is mentioned, we are told taking the mark, in addition to allowing one to buy and sell, one must also worship the beast or its image. The two are intricately tied together. Take the mark, and you worship the beast…don’t worship the beast, you won’t take the mark.
Now…let me ask you this: clearly you believe that the current vaccine is problematic. You would rather be banned from various places than take it. As is your right. But…there are plenty of Christians who are taking the vaccine. They take it because there is no (yet) link to a ruler and demand to worship him. Right now, the vaccine is not the mark of the beast. Which means, you are restricting yourself from various services and places BASED ON YOUR FAITH AND CONVICTIONS ALONE. Do you see my point? The exact same happened in the day John wrote Revelation to the 7 churches. Workers had to join guilds to work. But guilds had temple worship, which, obviously, worshipped other gods, but also had temple prostitution, which worshippers would be expected to partake in. Christians refused this and were kicked out of their guilds. Without guilds, they could not buy or trade. No physical mark was required. It was their faith and belief in Jesus alone that kept them from participating…even in the face of starvation…in these things.
Now…please do keep in mind that I am, once again, NOT dogmatic on this. Like you, I watch the technology being developed on this. I’m uneasy on the mandates being pushed. Full disclosure; I am vaccinated. I didn’t rush into it, I prayed about it and did research into it. I’m dubious over its health benefits, as its not a long tested drug, but I’m sure it’s not the mark of the beast. Could the technology be developed into that? Could the mandates being rammed home now because of it being laying the paving for the mark? Absolutely. That’s why I watch. But while I allow for those possibilities, I don’t see scripture demanding them.
I’m also…full disclosure, dubious about the noise over this ‘Luciferase’ or the 5G. They were up in arms about ATM cards once too. Every new technology is suspect.
Here’s the deal: IF the mark turns out to be a physical mark, then without a doubt the ‘beast’ will use the technology available to him. He just will. And Christians will need to be aware…of who this guy is and what he’s attempting to do. But up until THAT moment, it’s all just technology developed by man. Usually for profit and usually used for greed…but often used by God’s people to forward the Kingdom too. Technology itself is a blank slate, we use it as a tool. Perhaps someday Satan’s tool will use our tool. It’s our job to be wise about it.
But until someone can show me, chapter and verse, that I need to watch out for 5G and shiny chemicals, I’m just gonna keep on keeping on and trusting God.
Profound.
That’s…not exactly what I asked for, even though its sound advice.
I don’t really see a Millennial Kingdom, although I won’t be disappointed to be proven wrong, by someone else or Christ himself. And yes, I’ve spent a few hours on the subject as well. The conclusion I’ve come to is this: the more I’ve learned the more I realise we probably don’t have a proper grasp on end times at all. (And by ‘we’ I mean the different ‘systems’). So, I’m totally willing to be surprised by Christ.
Ronald David Bruno
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I di thinkbthe ketters were specific to those churches, describing individuals, their sins, false doctrines; but it is also a message to the entire Church age. They are Church types. We can see thise same individulas , sins and false doctrines in every generation
We can see ourselves in those descriptions. But that message ends in chapter three. Then the John is taken to another vision in heaven. I believe Revelatiin was written around 95 AD and have valid reasons and evidence for that. So chapter 4, John enters into heaven and is shown things that take place after, things that win't have anything to do with rhoaw larticular seven churches . Two of them were faithful and sid not recent rebuke. The other five did and were told to repent or else. That's, the mesage to them was complete and over. Next.
Chapter 5 is interesting. The first 4 verses are pre-death and resurrection, since no one in heaven or on earth was worthy to open the scroll. That brings back 65 years at least, a different peruid on earth before any of thise churches existed. Then in verse 5, Jesus shows up. All of a sudden, it's now post- death, resurrection and ascension. Still churches haven't even gotten started yet. Now He is worthy to take the scroll and open it. He does, how else would we nkw what was in it and of course John wrote about all it's contents. The scroll was just a play book or events. With each seal opened, the angel tells him to "come and see", taking him to a future event. And these events describe His Second Coming in Judgment, our resurrection, a Millennial kingdom, more judgment, destruction of the first earth and heavens and finally replaced by the New Jerusalem, the new eternal heaven and earth.
Rev. 9:5-11 explains the painful stings of these creatures, so painful as men try to kill themselves but cannot. Later on they morph into different creatures ( vs. 16) - 200 million. So I think the first demon locusts would be the same number, same demons, now different. Now they are allowed to kill 1/3 of mankind and the rest did not repent. After these events, over half the planet has been killed. Nothing this extreme has ever happened before. 1% of the world's population died in WW1, 2% for WWII.
Right, so what would be an example of worship? Belief in, obedient to and dependant on a ruler? This One World Government seeks to impose total dependency on it's people. Collapse the economy and pick up then pieces. Offer them loan forgiveness, a way out -only we must relinquush all our property. They want to control all of it and us. So people who get in line, believe the lies, go along with the Utopian plan, tkae the mark. They believe, obey and depend on even to the point praise - that is worship. People now worship their computers. Well Gates is a tech god. Many believe guys lije him have the answers to the next stwp of evolution, which first requires a massive reduction of the population.
This is not based on faith alone. This is not a vaccine, it is genetic therapy or as one doctor puts it, a death vaccine.
Jewish doctor says deaths from [fake] vaccination will potentially be over two BILLION within 2-3 years – ‘The only reason you would give this poisonous death shot to children is if you believe in child sacrifice’
Naomi25
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So…you really believe that beyond the letters to the churches, the rest of the book had no meaning to those it was sent to?
What do you suppose they made of that? Was there an addendum attached we didn’t get to see that told them the rest of the ‘book’ was future generations and they were to disregard it? If there was no such note to them, how were they to know it was not for them? How would they not have been absolutely confused by what John was writing to them? And surely confusion was the last ’intent’ any ‘word’ from the Lord would be.
Does it not make more sense that…just as the warnings to one church can also be warnings to all churches…so too some of the encouragements in the face of persecution the rest of the book describes, could be garnered by that early church? Just as those who face the ultimate beast (antichrist) triumph by the blood of the Lamb and loving not their lives…so too those early church members could also triumph when they faced the multiple antichrists…”who have already come into the world”…as John told us in his epistle.
I would argue Christ was always worthy. But…as the scroll contains the purposes of God for mankind…his ultimate salvational plan and restoration of both man and cosmos…then, yes, Jesus had to suffer and die to ‘open the scroll’. Had he refused to ‘lay down his life’, as God, he still would have been worthy, glorious, holy. But mankind would be lost…the scroll would have remained un-opened. That is why John wept.
I would agree that some visions absolutely show these events. However…when John is ‘taken into heaven’ he is told he will be shown what ‘will happen after this’. Not ‘what will happen only in the last days’…just ‘after this’. One could argue that John sees the events spanning Christ’s ascension to his return. I mean…Rev 12 shows Christ’s birth…so, parts of Rev stretch backwards.
I’m not saying that we dismiss the heavy emphasis on the last days, or what that possibly means. I’m suggesting we accept the possibility that God’s salvational plan…the scroll…encompasses more than just the last 7 years of history.
I don’t actually see Rev as saying that the locusts ‘morph’ into the army of 200 million. To me, it reads as separate entities. They are described differently, and as we are not told they are the same in any way, I’m reluctant to assume they’re the same.
And yes…I’d imagine this is something we have yet to see.
I…don’t think I’d describe worship that way. We can believe in, be obedient to and even depend on something we don’t like at all. We worship something we can’t live without…emotionally. Some people can’t live without their phones..technology. They’re always on them, thinking about them, etc. Some people worship sport…their lives revolve around it. Some people worship their children…their identities are found in their children…how they’re doing at school, etc. Some people worship their status in life, their appearance. You get the picture.
I think when this mark and this ‘image’ comes into being, we’ll see two types of people. The ones who jump on board because that’s what they do. Let’s call them the Karen’s. They’ll see this guy, this cause and believe, whole heartedly that it is RIGHTEOUS! They will follow him, love him, believe in him…and condemn everyone who does not! Then you’ll have those who don’t care so much either way, but because they don’t want to be on the receiving end of the Karens, they’ll throw their pinch on incense on the fire…they’ll line up and nod and say their prayers and tell everyone that they believe in climate change too…because they don’t want to be cancelled.
Now that I’ve mixed all my references…I hope you still get my drift!
Again…please don’t see me as completely dismissing the idea that the mark COULD be a physical mark that makes people rely on it totally to buy or sell. I’m just trying to point out that we see it today…the fact that a Christian can be cancelled…lose their job, cut off from social circles…all manner of things, simply because they stand their ground morally…no physical mark required. And I imagine it will only get worse.
Well…how’s about you check back with me in 2-3 years and see how I’m kicking?
Timtofly
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It seems you are ready to not recognize Christ as Christ promised:
"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
Do you think this is going to be covert, when all will see Christ coming to earth? Do you not see this as putting His feet on the mount of Olives? Do you reject the Second Coming so much that there will not even be a mount of Olives to stand on?
Even after witnessing this event, many will reject that this is Jesus Christ. They will still look for other explanations to what is happening around them. They rejected Jesus the first time. They will still reject Jesus the second time.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Setting up a throne in Jerusalem is being in charge of all nations. Do you literally think that all the billions of people will be standing around the city of Jerusalem waiting to be called to stand before the throne?
Or like the UN there are representatives of each nation? And the UN has a defacto control over each nations standing ability? Remember that there are 144k male representatives across the earth. There are billions of angels across the earth.
Jerusalem is the centralized command point. Christ is the deciding factor of where the sheep and goat's souls are taken by the angels. The mention of nations involves the whole earth, not just a strip of land in the ME. God does not need every human to gather into Jerusalem.
The point is that this event takes place during the Trumpets. Trumpets symbolically mean the gathering of Israel itself out of those nations. The archangel and the Trump of God are present in Jerusalem. Yet we see in Revelation 9, 6 more Trumpets are sounded as well at this time. This is the point of the House of Jacob becoming the valley of dry bones. But the resurrection of these bones happen after the judgment and the harvest of these souls from Adam's fallen flesh, and sin nature. Matthew 25 is the time of judgment, and separating the sheep from the goats. This is not a resurrection event. This is not the GWT. This is not even for the church and their reward judgment. Being sent to eternal damnation is not a reward for a believer. This judgment can only be for Israel and the lost tribes still scattered among the nations. But these are living humans at the time of the Second Coming, not dead ones from all of history.
Ronald David Bruno
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The message of Christ's second coming was given to all generations. A sense that His arrival could be soon and imminent gives them also a sense of being ready, washed and ready to meet your Maker.
The prophecy given to Daniel in chapter 12 was none of his business, God told him to seal it up - because it pertained to a time far into the future.
What makes you think that those individual churches received anything more than what was addressed to them (which was one letter)? I see it as each letter being sent directly to each church (as the epistles) were and THEN LATER collected together.
Well Scripture states _at that particular time, no one was worthy
yet. Christ had not completed his purposed yet, He had not paid the price for our sins, ruse from the dead ir ascend to heaven yet and so the scroll could not be fuven to Him until He did. At that time, the Father gabe Him all authority in heaven and on earth. The Scroll, as some describe it, is the Title Deed to Earth, prerequisite orders of eventa that need to take place before His Millenmial Kingdom is realized and then afterwards the final GWT JUDGMENT.
I think the full consummation of His redemptive plan, ourbresurrectuin falssbwithin thebtimebifbthw Great Tribulation. But it is mainly about a period of judgment.
7 years? I see it as 3 1/2 years (mentioned in several places as 42 months, 1260 days, 1290 days or a time, times and a half a time(
Well 2 x 10,000 × 10,000 is 200 million. So you think demon locusts are a separate army? There would have to be as many to torture the billions that aren't dead already.
Satan took 1/3 of the angels with him. That means there would be at least 400 million angels. That's comforting, 1 for every 20 people. Don't think we have a personal guardian angel, but one or several available when needed.
Emotion? I never thought of worship as requiring emotions. I guess people can get emotional, singing and praising as part of their worship.
I'll miss you. We will all find out very soon if this virus and vaccine were delivered by the Rider on the White Horse.
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