THE END OF THE PREMIL/AMIL DEBATE

[Curtis]

Setting up a throne in Jerusalem is being in charge of all nations. Do you literally think that all the billions of people will be standing around the city of Jerusalem waiting to be called to stand before the throne?

Or like the UN there are representatives of each nation? And the UN has a defacto control over each nations standing ability? Remember that there are 144k male representatives across the earth. There are billions of angels across the earth.

Jerusalem is the centralized command point. Christ is the deciding factor of where the sheep and goat's souls are taken by the angels. The mention of nations involves the whole earth, not just a strip of land in the ME. God does not need every human to gather into Jerusalem.

The point is that this event takes place during the Trumpets. Trumpets symbolically mean the gathering of Israel itself out of those nations. The archangel and the Trump of God are present in Jerusalem. Yet we see in Revelation 9, 6 more Trumpets are sounded as well at this time. This is the point of the House of Jacob becoming the valley of dry bones. But the resurrection of these bones happen after the judgment and the harvest of these souls from Adam's fallen flesh, and sin nature. Matthew 25 is the time of judgment, and separating the sheep from the goats. This is not a resurrection event. This is not the GWT. This is not even for the church and their reward judgment. Being sent to eternal damnation is not a reward for a believer. This judgment can only be for Israel and the lost tribes still scattered among the nations. But these are living humans at the time of the Second Coming, not dead ones from all of history.

The dry dead bones came to life in 1948, when Israel became a nation again.

Jesus is almighty, and the same Jesus that comes and supernaturally gathers Christians from all over the world, and raises all the dead to life for judgment, can assemble the nations left alive after His return, after He destroys those attacking Jerusalem, in Zechariah 14:16, for judgment.

Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Your God’s too small and too limited.

My God is almighty.

Shalom

 

[Naomi25]

The message of Christ's second coming was given to all generations. A sense that His arrival could be soon and imminent gives them also a sense of being ready, washed and ready to meet your Maker.
The prophecy given to Daniel in chapter 12 was none of his business, God told him to seal it up - because it pertained to a time far into the future.

Okay…I accept all that. Except…the Revelation IS the revealing of Daniel’s vision, and the churches of Revelation had just had it presented to them.
I get that you’re suggesting that, like Daniel, they may have been expected to ‘wait’. But…it does not sound like that command was in the text anywhere.

Revelation 1:1
[1] The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

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What makes you think that those individual churches received anything more than what was addressed to them (which was one letter)? I see it as each letter being sent directly to each church (as the epistles) were and THEN LATER collected together.

Well, a couple of things. One, the book is not presented in scripture as several small epistles to different churches. It is given as a single book…a single vision to John by the appearing of Jesus to him. Why would we think John would have separated the warnings and encouragements to the separate churches…especially…as you believe…these warnings and encouragements are pertinent for all churches and peoples?
The second is the warnings we find within the book itself…to not add or take away from the words of the prophecy. The book must remain whole, I suggest. And perhaps for a reason…maybe for the reason of…encouraging/warning all churches who struggle with sins and persecutions.

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Well Scripture states _at that particular time, no one was worthy
yet. Christ had not completed his purposed yet, He had not paid the price for our sins, ruse from the dead ir ascend to heaven yet and so the scroll could not be fuven to Him until He did. At that time, the Father gabe Him all authority in heaven and on earth. The Scroll, as some describe it, is the Title Deed to Earth, prerequisite orders of eventa that need to take place before His Millenmial Kingdom is realized and then afterwards the final GWT JUDGMENT.

I…suppose you could look at it like that. I see it differently. Not that John sees backwards in time, before Christ went to the cross and was therefore ‘worthy’ to open the scroll. I more see that the search for one who is ‘worthy’ is great, they look here, they look there, but can find no-one. But at almost the last hour, when despair is at its greatest, suddenly there! One steps forward who is worthy!
I’m not sure it ultimately matters which way the vision is supposed to be viewed, the outcome is the same. But I suppose it does highlight how easy it is to read a passage as view it differently, understand it differently.

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I think the full consummation of His redemptive plan, ourbresurrectuin falssbwithin thebtimebifbthw Great Tribulation. But it is mainly about a period of judgment.
7 years? I see it as 3 1/2 years (mentioned in several places as 42 months, 1260 days, 1290 days or a time, times and a half a time(

Well, yes, I think I can agree that full consumption of ‘the plan’ is when all his people have received their resurrected bodies. But…there is some debate as to when that occurs!
I am…open…to both a Great Tribulation and a specific time period at the end. I think there is repeated use of specific numbers that lead in that direction. If it were only symbolic, why the need to repeat it, in differing language, again and again. Not dogmatic on it, but definitely open to it.

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Well 2 x 10,000 × 10,000 is 200 million. So you think demon locusts are a separate army? There would have to be as many to torture the billions that aren't dead already.
Satan took 1/3 of the angels with him. That means there would be at least 400 million angels. That's comforting, 1 for every 20 people. Don't think we have a personal guardian angel, but one or several available when needed.

I’m…not sure why I would care how many angels…or corresponding demons…there many be. We’re told there are ‘myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands’ are around the throne of God. In Daniel we are told that ‘ten thousand times ten thousand’ are about his chariot throne. I think, should we need assurance, that there are plenty of heavenly host, up to the task.
And yes, plenty of demonic hoard. Not that it will matter. The demons are under the command and restriction of God Almighty. Their task is foreordained and appointed, not one more person shall suffer than predestined to, not one less.
So, no…I don’t read them as the same beings…but it doesn’t bother me if they are.

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Emotion? I never thought of worship as requiring emotions. I guess people can get emotional, singing and praising as part of their worship.

Mmm…I’m not just talking about the sort of people who wave their hands about. I’m talking about the sort of people who aren’t even religious. They have a deep, gnawing need for something…they pivot their lives about it. Religious people, while still falling prey to idols, often are most in touch with what they worship, because they know they worship something…they point their affections towards what they worship. Most people aren’t even aware they do it, they just…need…and orient their lives towards it. Family, politics, social media, appearance, climate change…being vegan. And many get…emotionally deranged over it. As we witness today. And those who don’t loose themselves to these causes, will still align themselves to have access to their people group. Which, in a way…turns out to be what they worship…acceptance.

. I'll miss you. We will all find out very soon if this virus and vaccine were delivered by the Rider on the White Horse.

Probably. I can’t see it as the mark…I wasn’t forced to worship anyone when I took it. While they are attempting to push mandates, they’re not there yet. And I didn’t need it to buy or sell.
But if the vaccines have long term health effects, it is going to get very interesting. I’m not worried, I trust God more than I’m inclined to panic. If he calls me home….that’s to gain, right?
But, you can be assured, if the vaccine procedure morphs into something that is both forced AND requires me to worship…forget it. I’d rather face illness and a firing squad.

 

[Timtofly]

The dry dead bones came to life in 1948, when Israel became a nation again.

Jesus is almighty, and the same Jesus that comes and supernaturally gathers Christians from all over the world, and raises all the dead to life for judgment, can assemble the nations left alive after His return, after He destroys those attacking Jerusalem, in Zechariah 14:16, for judgment.

Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Your God’s too small and too limited.

My God is almighty.

Shalom

Why do you make many gods?

Your argument ceases to make sense with that rhetoric.

This is the end of the road for all of Adam's flesh. The Millennium starts with a resurrection. It is a physical resurrection into an incorruptible body for all who continue to live on the earth. The earth will populate for 1000 years under the iron rod of Jesus Christ without sin, and without Satan. But no one will get there by living. It will be through death.

We have to get through the tribulation which is the final harvest of all souls currently living in Adam's corruptible flesh. And the church is removed first, because the church is forever remaining in Paradise. Only after the NHNE, will the church come down as the New Jerusalem.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Revelation 1:1
[1] The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

I don't view the letters as prophecy. They were more like a boss telling his secretary to type up a few letters to send them out. It is possible this entire book was sent to each church so that they can view the problems going on in other churches, showing Philadelphia as the faithful church, Smyrna as the persecuted church. The messages in the letters were things and conditions that were presently happening, not future things. The visions started when John was invited up to heaven. Then that was pertaining to another time. Almost all these events we read from chapter 6 on did not happen in history, but I think are about to.

Why would we think John would have separated the warnings and encouragements to the separate churches…especially…as you believe…these warnings and encouragements are pertinent for all churches and peoples?

Well, pointing out specific individuals, sins, and false doctrines in those specific seven churches with warnings to repent or else Jesus would take away their lampstand, (dissolve their church) IS NOT the same as 1/2 or more of the population of the entire planet being judged, catapulted into a catastrophic series of disastrous events resulting in death.

The second is the warnings we find within the book itself…to not add or take away from the words of the prophecy. The book must remain whole, I suggest. And perhaps for a reason…maybe for the reason of…encouraging/warning all churches who struggle with sins and persecutions.

I agree.

I’m talking about the sort of people who aren’t even religious. They have a deep, gnawing need for something…they pivot their lives about it. Religious people, while still falling prey to idols, often are most in touch with what they worship, because they know they worship something…they point their affections towards what they worship. Most people aren’t even aware they do it, they just…need…and orient their lives towards it. Family, politics, social media, appearance, climate change…being vegan. And many get…emotionally deranged over it. As we witness today. And those who don’t loose themselves to these causes, will still align themselves to have access to their people group. Which, in a way…turns out to be what they worship…acceptance.

Okay, so you aren't talking about how you worship - you don't get emotional.

I’m not worried, I trust God more than I’m inclined to panic. If he calls me home….that’s to gain, right?
But, you can be assured, if the vaccine procedure morphs into something that is both forced AND requires me to worship…forget it. I’d rather face illness and a firing squad.

Australia is a test case. They are in complete lockdown. Freedoms have been severely restricted. Martial law, curfews, limited activities, mileabyou can travel and from work, stores, masks required at all times except in your own homes. Vaccines mandated through fear of escalating infections from the new Delta variant. Protests are banned. It is like a communist state. Promises that these requirements are temporary and are mot about a power grab but saving lives is BS. The plan is the Great Reset, a New World Order where all nations must relinquish their sovereignty and property and comply with orders coming from ... The Antichrist.

 

[Naomi25]

I don't view the letters as prophecy. They were more like a boss telling his secretary to type up a few letters to send them out. It is possible this entire book was sent to each church so that they can view the problems going on in other churches, showing Philadelphia as the faithful church, Smyrna as the persecuted church. The messages in the letters were things and conditions that were presently happening, not future things. The visions started when John was invited up to heaven. Then that was pertaining to another time. Almost all these events we read from chapter 6 on did not happen in history, but I think are about to.

I disagree. Not that the letters were prophecy…I don’t believe they were either. Relevant to all believers at all times…yes, specifically prophetic; no.
What I disagree about is the vision only beginning when John was taken up to heaven. That was the beginning of that part of a significant shift in the vision, but not the vision as a whole. Consider:

Revelation 1:9-12
Vision of the Son of Man
[9] I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. [10] I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet [11] saying, “Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”
[12] Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands,

Revelation 1:19
[19] [a]Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this.

You can see in Chapter 1 that everything ‘written down’ is part of the vision. John is “in the spirit” and beholds Christ, who commands him to write down what he sees and hears.
The fact that John is “in the spirit” suggests strongly that he wasn’t just strolling along the beach and had Christ arrive in front of him.

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Well, pointing out specific individuals, sins, and false doctrines in those specific seven churches with warnings to repent or else Jesus would take away their lampstand, (dissolve their church) IS NOT the same as 1/2 or more of the population of the entire planet being judged, catapulted into a catastrophic series of disastrous events resulting in death.

I’m afraid I don’t quite see your point here…sorry.

Okay, so you aren't talking about how you worship - you don't get emotional.
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That…was not at all what I was talking about. I wasn’t talking about me. And I WAS talking about emotion. I mean…gee. Today’s reasoning is ALL about emotion, isn’t it? Truth IS emotion. Whatever your emotions tell you is “right for you” IS your truth. That is why people are just fine believing such demented lies and illogical things. Because it “feels” good, it “feels” right. They don’t recognise the truth of God’s word when it tells us that the heart is wicked.

We’ve been see such a juxtaposition…for years we’ve had ‘society’ teaching that truth is ‘your own and what makes you feel good’. And yet we see more and more that it still must be ‘the right truth’…or you’ll get cancelled. Which to me, points to exactly the sort of madness that leads away from God’s truth and sets up the world to be funnelled into believing they’re ‘choosing’ whatever world system is being proffered.

. Australia is a test case. They are in complete lockdown. Freedoms have been severely restricted. Martial law, curfews, limited activities, mileabyou can travel and from work, stores, masks required at all times except in your own homes. Vaccines mandated through fear of escalating infections from the new Delta variant. Protests are banned. It is like a communist state. Promises that these requirements are temporary and are mot about a power grab but saving lives is BS. The plan is the Great Reset, a New World Order where all nations must relinquish their sovereignty and property and comply with orders coming from ... The Antichrist.

Yes. I’m quite familiar with what Australia is like…I’ve been living here. And it’s as bad as they say. The utter ridiculous (or one of) part of it is: this place is huge. HUGE. The cities are really on the coast, and that’s where the infection rates are highest. But once you leave them…nothing. And yet, the whole country is locked. Down. I live at least 6 hours away from the nearest infected person. And yet, I still need to put a mask on my face when I go into my tiny local supermarket, and sign into every shop I go into with my phone so Big Brother knows where I am all the time. It’s outrageous.
Most of us are looking on with glee at the moment as Dictator Dan (the Victorian Premier) has shut down the construction industry for two weeks…simply to teach them a lesson for not wanting to get all get vaccinated. Anyway, their your fairly average Aussie blokes. And they didn’t take it lying down. They’ve protested two days in a row, despite not being allowed.
It’s fairly indicative of where we are at the moment. The NSW Premier has just announced that even after 80% of NSW people are vaccinated, those who aren’t must remain in hard lockdown. It’s outrageous. And yes, I would say we are fast approaching Marxism in many ways, despite what people believe.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Naomi,
I am sorry your country is experiencing this fascist and socialist transformation. I would like to encourage you, that this is only temporary. The rest of the world will go through the same and it will get worse - until the end, when Jesus returns and puts an end to it. Satan and his Antichrist are in charge, but it will only be for 3 1/2 years. If I am wrong, then this world will suffer for decades, an entire generation or ages with no other way out but death.
So you better hope I am right. We are in the beginning of the Great Tribulation - or at least the "beginning of sorrows" spoken about in Matthew 24

Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches,

There it is, conformation, you're right. And it is applicable, to give perspective and hope for all church types.
I went to a church like the one in Philadelphia, the faithful church. Jesus promises that we will not suffer His wrath (the Seven Bowls). So at the sound of the Seventh Trumpet, we will be taken up, snatched, in the twinkling of an eye _ transformed into eternal spirits, whether alive or dead.

And I WAS talking about emotion. I mean…gee. Today’s reasoning is ALL about emotion, isn’t it? Truth IS emotion. Whatever your emotions tell you is “right for you” IS your truth. That is why people are just fine believing such demented lies and illogical things. Because it “feels” good, it “feels” right. They don’t recognise the truth of God’s word when it tells us that the heart is wicked.

Well truth comes from God into our minds. The thought is there first, then we respond with emotions and actions. The mind, will and emotions are parts of your soul. So it can happen rapidly, you see something, process it and get angey, sad or elated.

We’ve been see such a juxtaposition…for years we’ve had ‘society’ teaching that truth is ‘your own and what makes you feel good’.

Yes, subjective truth, "Relativism".
But I was talking about God's truth which is absolute, has nothing to do with how we feel about it. Feelings are subjective but truth is not. People respond differently to the same truth.
*******
Hold onto your faith, this is going to be a rough ride - but I have confidence that you will finish the race.
God Bless, Ronald

 

[Addy]

HA... I got SOOOOOOOO excited when I read the title of this thread...
The END of the DEBATE...... I say CLICK BAIT.

 

[Truth7t7]

Satan and his Antichrist are in charge, but it will only be for 3 1/2 years. If I am wrong, then this world will suffer for decades, an entire generation or ages with no other way out but death.
So you better hope I am right. We are in the beginning of the Great Tribulation - or at least the "beginning of sorrows" spoken about in Matthew 24


There it is, conformation, you're right. And it is applicable, to give perspective and hope for all church types.
I went to a church like the one in Philadelphia, the faithful church. Jesus promises that we will not suffer His wrath (the Seven Bowls). So at the sound of the Seventh Trumpet, we will be taken up, snatched, in the twinkling of an eye _ transformed into eternal spirits, whether alive or dead.




Well truth comes from God into our minds. The thought is there first, then we respond with emotions and actions. The mind, will and emotions are parts of your soul. So it can happen rapidly, you see something, process it and get angey, sad or elated.



Yes, subjective truth, "Relativism".
But I was talking about God's truth which is absolute, has nothing to do with how we feel about it. Feelings are subjective but truth is not. People respond differently to the same truth.
*******
Hold onto your faith, this is going to be a rough ride - but I have confidence that you will finish the race.
God Bless, Ronald

"God Rules"

I'm not denying that saints will be killed in the future tribulation,those who God prepares, 1 Corinthians 10:13

The propaganda presented by many, teaching that (The Beast) has full control is "Deception"

The two Witnesses will rule the 3.5 year tribulation through plagues and wrath Revelation 11:6 all plagues as Often as they will "God Rules"

A complete remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, and the Hebrews weren't running scared "God Rules"

Revelation 9:3-6 men tormented for 5 months, desiring to die as death flees, as the sealed church is protected on earth "God Rules"

All plagues come upon the Beast and his kingdom as shown in Revelation 16:1-11 "God Rules"

Those who kill will be killed, those who desire to imprison will be imprisoned, Gods divine protection of the Church, he who has an ear let him hear! Revelation 13:9-10 "God Rules"

God feeds the Remnant Church in the wilderness, manna from heaven as in the days of coming out of Egypt, as the world watches in fear Revelation 12:6, Micah 7:11-17 "God Rules"

The church on earth is instructed to enter their dwellings until Gods wrath in indignation is past, just like the passover in Egypt Isaiah 26:20-21"God Rules"

And many suggest (The Beast) is ruling the tribulation, not a chance! "God Rules"

 

[Truth7t7]

So at the sound of the Seventh Trumpet, we will be taken up, snatched, in the twinkling of an eye _ transformed into eternal spirits, whether alive or dead.




Well truth comes from God into our minds. The thought is there first, then we respond with emotions and actions. The mind, will and emotions are parts of your soul. So it can happen rapidly, you see something, process it and get angey, sad or elated.



Yes, subjective truth, "Relativism".
But I was talking about God's truth which is absolute, has nothing to do with how we feel about it. Feelings are subjective but truth is not. People respond differently to the same truth.
*******
Hold onto your faith, this is going to be a rough ride - but I have confidence that you will finish the race.
God Bless, Ronald

As scripture clearly teaches below in 1 Corinthinas 15:23-24 , when Jesus Christ returns then comes (The End)

Many disregard (Then Cometh The End) as they desire to see a mortal Millennial Kingdom on earth, after the coming of Jesus Christ

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, not a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as many falsely claim

(Then Cometh The End)

(Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

1 Corinthians 15:21-26 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[Naomi25]

Naomi,
I am sorry your country is experiencing this fascist and socialist transformation. I would like to encourage you, that this is only temporary. The rest of the world will go through the same and it will get worse - until the end, when Jesus returns and puts an end to it. Satan and his Antichrist are in charge, but it will only be for 3 1/2 years. If I am wrong, then this world will suffer for decades, an entire generation or ages with no other way out but death.
So you better hope I am right. We are in the beginning of the Great Tribulation - or at least the "beginning of sorrows" spoken about in Matthew 24


There it is, conformation, you're right. And it is applicable, to give perspective and hope for all church types.
I went to a church like the one in Philadelphia, the faithful church. Jesus promises that we will not suffer His wrath (the Seven Bowls). So at the sound of the Seventh Trumpet, we will be taken up, snatched, in the twinkling of an eye _ transformed into eternal spirits, whether alive or dead.




Well truth comes from God into our minds. The thought is there first, then we respond with emotions and actions. The mind, will and emotions are parts of your soul. So it can happen rapidly, you see something, process it and get angey, sad or elated.



Yes, subjective truth, "Relativism".
But I was talking about God's truth which is absolute, has nothing to do with how we feel about it. Feelings are subjective but truth is not. People respond differently to the same truth.
*******
Hold onto your faith, this is going to be a rough ride - but I have confidence that you will finish the race.
God Bless, Ronald

I do believe harder times are ahead as well. But…I think we still must hold onto some perspective…it has to get a LOT worse before we are suffering what some of our brothers and sisters are in some places of the world. The problem, I think, is that not many believe it could get that worse, that quickly. I think we have various historical instances that prove that, yes…it could. And, if it IS the right time, the END time, then it will.
I’m not worried. Satan might be “Prince of the world”, but its borrowed authority. Fake authority even, as even as he does what he believes to be his own will, he plays directly into God’s hand. Nothing is done that is not approved by God and foreordained by God. So..whatever is in my future is totally in God’s hand, and I am content with that, one way or the other.
Without doubt, I think we can both agree that the cry, now more than ever, of the church, ought to be ‘Maranatha!’

 

[Truth7t7]

I’m not worried. Satan might be “Prince of the world”, but its borrowed authority. Fake authority even, as even as he does what he believes to be his own will, he plays directly into God’s hand. Nothing is done that is not approved by God and foreordained by God. So..whatever is in my future is totally in God’s hand, and I am content with that, one way or the other.
Without doubt, I think we can both agree that the cry, now more than ever, of the church, ought to be ‘Maranatha!’

I Agree 100%

 

[Naomi25]

I Agree 100%

Goodness! Something on which we agree! Agreeing is good. And I suppose if we can’t all agree on God’s providence and sovereignty, then what on earth are we doing?