The end of the world, as taught by Christ, separates the wicked from the just at the harvest, and it is coming for you.

[Scott Downey]

And guess what those translations support? Reigning with Christ a thousand years. Too bad Amils can't apply any of that to when their proposed millennium is meaning. You would think Revelation 3:21, for one, should be coming to mind.

What I'm arguing is that they don't sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel all throughout eternity, nor do they do this for only one day. Keeping in mind, per Amil there are no more days following the last day of this age.

At least these translations show that they begin sitting on 12 thrones once Christ has returned, rather than before He returns. And this presents a problem for Amil unless this is meaning all throughout eternity they do this. Except we know it can't be meaning all throughout eternity since that would contradict the following, for one.


1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


And once again, it is beyond absurd that they only sit on these 12 thrones for just one day, meaning the same day Christ returns. Keeping in mind, per Amil there are no more days after the last day of this age. Per Premil this is not an issue whatsoever. BTW, this doesn't mean I think 12 literal thrones are involved or something. That is irrelevant in regards to the points I'm attempting to make. Which mainly have to do with how much time are they allotted to do these things, sitting on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. Amil has no answer for that, Premil does.

I DID NOT SAY they sat on thrones just one day. I said One Day for the Day of Judgment by Christ of eternal life or death in the Lake of Fire..

Going on ignore now.
See after a while you realize conversation is useless and no point in continuing. I view it as brushing the dust off my feet and moving forward.

I am not into furthering contentions and dissentions, or heresies, all works of the flesh. Which is what eventually happens with opponents.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I do agree with Jesus spiritually dwelling in us, the point I was making was that I can claim there was a coming of Jesus at anytime I want using your logic.

You don’t seem to understand that once you accept a certain method of interpretation we should be able to apply that method elsewhere. You disagree with a 70AD coming yet I can show it as a possibility using your hermeneutics.

Nonsense. I can show where Jesus said He would come to dwell in us spiritually. Where does it say that He would come to destroy Jerusalem?

You are a master at changing your method of interpretation to support a position then denying anyone else from using that same method of interpretation to support their position.

This foolish comment shows that you don't even understand my method of interpretation.

Of course context matters. The context of the parable was the kingdom of heaven and you have added a second kingdom to that context to make it work for you.

The context talks about "His field". Since He said the field represented "the world", then it makes it "His world". Does that not mean He is the King of the world, making the world His kingdom in that sense? I'm not trying to make anything work for me, I'm going by what Jesus actually said.

When I add a coming in 70AD that changed the context according to you. You can change the context but I’m not allowed to change the context.

Where does it say He would come in 70 AD? Again, I can show where He said He would come to dwell spiritually in people. Where is the scripture which says He would come to destroy Jerusalem?

Apparently those who have agreed with your post also agree with this kind of thinking.

This kind of thinking has to do with taking scripture in context, so it makes sense that I wouldn't be the only one to do that.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Since the angels gather out of the kingdom all that offend and do iniquity, how did the tares get into the kingdom of God in the first place? Did they lose their salvation?

Some did, and some were just playing like they were believers

Let go of your old ideas and look at the things taught in the New Testament is my advice.

Yep, we should read the Old Testament in light of the greater revelation given by the Lord in the New Testament.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

And guess what those translations support? Reigning with Christ a thousand years. Too bad Amils can't apply any of that to when their proposed millennium is meaning. You would think Revelation 3:21, for one, should be coming to mind.

Who told you we can't apply that to our understanding of the the thousand years?

What I'm arguing is that they don't sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel all throughout eternity, nor do they do this for only one day.

And your proof of this is....where?

Keeping in mind, per Amil there are no more days following the last day of this age.

At least these translations show that they begin sitting on 12 thrones once Christ has returned, rather than before He returns. And this presents a problem for Amil unless this is meaning all throughout eternity they do this. Except we know it can't be meaning all throughout eternity since that would contradict the following, for one.

Why can't they be doing it for the same amount of time it takes for Him to judge (if it took place in the realm of time)? How long do you think the judgment will take, anyway? Since you believe in multiple judgments, I mean the one referenced in Matthew 25:31-46. I assume you believe that is the judgment when they will sit on 12 thrones while Christ sits on His throne to judge? Where does it indicate that they will sit on the 12 thrones to do anything but assist in the judgment in some way?

1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


And once again, it is beyond absurd that they only sit on these 12 thrones for just one day, meaning the same day Christ returns.

I believe the judgment occurs in the realm of eternity rather than time. If there is time in eternity, then the judgment would take a long time and they would sit on the thrones for however long the judgment takes.

Keeping in mind, per Amil there are no more days after the last day of this age. Per Premil this is not an issue whatsoever. BTW, this doesn't mean I think 12 literal thrones are involved or something. That is irrelevant in regards to the points I'm attempting to make. Which mainly have to do with how much time are they allotted to do these things, sitting on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. Amil has no answer for that, Premil does.

LOL. You mean your straw man has no answer for that. But Amil does.

 

[Davidpt]

Where does it indicate that they will sit on the 12 thrones to do anything but assist in the judgment in some way?

Any of the passages that involve Christ judging and sentencing ppl, such as Matthew 25 and Revelation 20, or any other ones that you can think of , can you point out in the text where you see anyone doing what I quoted from your post above?

 

[Davidpt]

Going on ignore now.

I won't be losing any sleep over it since it's not possible to reason with you to begin with.

 

[Davidpt]

The tares got into the kingdom under the old covenant. Under the new covenant only believers are allowed to enter the kingdom. When the old covenant age finally came to an end the tares were removed at that time.

In the agricultural world, apparently tares resemble wheat in the early stages. It is then a matter of, what does the wheat symbolize in the parable? Because that is who the tares appear to be masquerading as, the wheat. Matthew 7 should come to mind here, meaning for anyone that has any level of discernment, plus considers context, since ch 7 mentions wolves in sheep's clothing, for instance.

In context the tares do not represent all of the lost, such as some interpret it be meaning. It is because it makes nonsense out of the text, for example, take atheists, how they can resemble wheat in the early stages or at any stage? Total nonsense. If Jesus is using real world imagery to make a point, when we then interpret these things they have to agree with the real world examples, otherwise it is plain absurd, thus totally pointless, as to why Jesus even used real world imagery to begin with. A lot of interpreters just can't seem to grasp this, probably because of doctrinal bias', therefore, they continue to interpret some of these passages out of context rather than in context.

 

[grafted branch]

In context the tares do not represent all of the lost, such as some interpret it be meaning. It is because it makes nonsense out of the text, for example, take atheists, how they can resemble wheat in the early stages or at any stage? Total nonsense.

I completely agree, it makes absolutely no sense to have the tares represent all the lost. If that were the case then they should be thinking that people like Hitler should’ve never have been fought against, we should’ve let him grow together with the wheat.

Another thing I’ve seen the Amils point out is that most Premils have sins, death, and unsaved in their millennial kingdom yet apparently, based on their interpretation of this parable, they themselves also have all those same things in their kingdom.

I honestly don’t know who they think they’re kidding, the hypocrisy stands out loud and clear.

Oh yeah, one other thing, since the parable says the servants aren’t supposed to pull up the tares lest they also root up the wheat, it’s the height of hypocrisy when they try to root out any other interpretation of the parable that they disagree with.

 

[grafted branch]

Some did, and some were just playing like they were believers

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Are you implying that a person who just plays like they are a believer is actually born of water and Spirit? And that’s how they get into the kingdom?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Any of the passages that involve Christ judging and sentencing ppl, such as Matthew 25 and Revelation 20, or any other ones that you can think of , can you point out in the text where you see anyone doing what I quoted from your post above?

I don't know what you were intending to say here. You are saying those passages have them on the thrones doing something besides judging? If so, what would that be exactly?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In the agricultural world, apparently tares resemble wheat in the early stages. It is then a matter of, what does the wheat symbolize in the parable? Because that is who the tares appear to be masquerading as, the wheat. Matthew 7 should come to mind here, meaning for anyone that has any level of discernment, plus considers context, since ch 7 mentions wolves in sheep's clothing, for instance.

In context the tares do not represent all of the lost, such as some interpret it be meaning. It is because it makes nonsense out of the text, for example, take atheists, how they can resemble wheat in the early stages or at any stage? Total nonsense. If Jesus is using real world imagery to make a point, when we then interpret these things they have to agree with the real world examples, otherwise it is plain absurd, thus totally pointless, as to why Jesus even used real world imagery to begin with. A lot of interpreters just can't seem to grasp this, probably because of doctrinal bias', therefore, they continue to interpret some of these passages out of context rather than in context.

There is doctrinal bias written all over everything you're saying here. Nowhere does Jesus Himself say that the tares represent those who are masquerading as the wheat. That came only from your imagination. Jesus said that the field represents the world and that the tares represent "the children of the wicked one" (Matthew 13:38). So, the tares represent all of the children of the wicked one in the world. All unbelievers in the world are the children of the wicked one, including the atheists you mentioned. Jesus Himself said not long before speaking that parable, "He who is not with me is against me" (Matthew 12:30). Jesus looked at all people as being in two groups: those who are with Him and those who are against Him. The wheat represent "the children of the kingdom" who are with Him and the tares represent "the children of the wicked one" who are against Him.

How do you interpret this similar parable:

Matthew 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: 48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. 49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Davidpt]

I don't know what you were intending to say here. You are saying those passages have them on the thrones doing something besides judging? If so, what would that be exactly?

If your position is, that when they are sitting on these thrones equals them assisting Christ judging others, what passages support that? Take Matthew 25, for instance. Where you take that to also be meaning the GWTJ. If per your view, all of the saved since the beginning of time through the end of time, are on His right, and all of the lost are on His left, how then does that equal any of the saved assisting Him in His judgments when they themselves are being judged? IOW, how can they be being judged and assisting Him in His judging at the same time?

 

[Davidpt]

Who told you we can't apply that to our understanding of the the thousand years?

You are not making sense here or you totally misunderstood my point. My point was in regards to the various translations of Matthew 19:28 that @Scott Downey submitted per that post I was addressing at the time. All of them make it crystal clear that the sitting on these thrones happens after Christ returns, not before He returns. I then mentioned Revelation 3:21 should come to mind and that that verse supports reigning with Christ a thousand years.

Except per my view vs. your view, your proposed millennium would already be in the past when all of the following are initially fulfilled, while my proposed millennium wouldn't be.

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

It is absurd that what is meant in Revelation 3:21---To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne--is not meaning this in Matthew 19:28---in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel---nor is Matthew 25:31 giving us the timing of these things. All of that is absurd, let's consider something reasonable instead.


It is reasonable that what is meant in Revelation 3:21---To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne--is meaning this in Matthew 19:28---in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel---and that Matthew 25:31 gives us the timing of these things. And that I conclude all of this fits with reigning with Christ a thousand years. Based on what I'm concluding per all the above passages----all of these things support Amil instead, exactly how???

Edited: fixed a typo.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If your position is, that when they are sitting on these thrones equals them assisting Christ judging others, what passages support that?

The fact of the matter is that we are not told explicitly what it means exactly for them to sit on thrones and judge. But, there is this...

1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

I believe that they will judge the 12 tribes in the same sense that it talks about the saints judging the world. Unfortunately, we're not told exactly what that means. But, it says we will even judge angels. I can speculate on what it means, but I don't like to speculate. What I can say is that I don't see that it has anything to do with reigning for a thousand years. It's not talking about reigning, it's talking about judging. Surely, we will not be reigning over angels for a thousand years, but we will be taking part in their judgment somehow. The same seems to be the case for the world (unbelievers in particular). And we know the judgment of angels will not be having to be ruled over for a thousand years, but they will be cast into the lake of fire. I see no reason it's wont be the same for the unbelievers in the 12 tribes and the world.

Take Matthew 25, for instance. Where you take that to also be meaning the GWTJ. If per your view, all of the saved since the beginning of time through the end of time, are on His right, and all of the lost are on His left, how then does that equal any of the saved assisting Him in His judgments when they themselves are being judged? IOW, how can they be being judged and assisting Him in His judging at the same time?

Does it say that they have to be judging the entire time and can't take a break to be judged themselves? No. So, I don't see that you're making a strong argument here.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are not making sense here or you totally misunderstood my point. My point was in regards to the various translations of Matthew 19:28 that @Scott Downey submitted per that post I was addressing at the time. All of them make it crystal clear that the sitting on these thrones happens after Christ returns, not before He returns. I then mentioned Revelation 3:21 should come to mind and that that verse supports reigning with Christ a thousand years.

Where does that verse say anything about reigning for a thousand years? Nowhere. You're the one not making sense.

Except per my view vs. your view, your proposed millennium would already be in the past when all of the following are initially fulfilled, while my proposed millennium wouldn't be.

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

It is absurd that what is meant in Revelation 3:21---To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne--is not meaning this in Matthew 19:28---in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel---nor is Matthew 25:31 giving us the timing of these things. All of that is absurd, let's consider something reasonable instead.

I agree with what you're saying here and yet you were claiming that Amils can't reconcile these passages with our view. Yes, we can. So, you're the one not making sense. Those are talking about judging at the judgment, not reigning for a thousand years.

It is reasonable that what is meant in Revelation 3:21---To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne--is meaning this in Matthew 19:28---in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel---and that Matthew 25:31 gives us the timing of these things.

I agree. Hello? Why do you think that Amils can't agree with this? I agree with it, so you're wrong about that.

And that I conclude all of this fits with reigning with Christ a thousand years.

That's where you go off the rails. You are trying to equate judging with reigning for a thousand years. They are not equivalent.

Based on what I'm concluding per all the above passages----all of these things support Amil instead, exactly how???

Because it's only talking about judging at the judgment, not reigning during the thousand years.

 

[WPM]

You are not making sense here or you totally misunderstood my point. My point was in regards to the various translations of Matthew 19:28 that @Scott Downey submitted per that post I was addressing at the time. All of them make it crystal clear that the sitting on these thrones happens after Christ returns, not before He returns. I then mentioned Revelation 3:21 should come to mind and that that verse supports reigning with Christ a thousand years.

Except per my view vs. your view, your proposed millennium would already be in the past when all of the following are initially fulfilled, while my proposed millennium wouldn't be.

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

It is absurd that what is meant in Revelation 3:21---To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne--is not meaning this in Matthew 19:28---in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel---nor is Matthew 25:31 giving us the timing of these things. All of that is absurd, let's consider something reasonable instead.


It is reasonable that what is meant in Revelation 3:21---To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne--is meaning this in Matthew 19:28---in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel---and that Matthew 25:31 gives us the timing of these things. And that I conclude all of this fits with reigning with Christ a thousand years. Based on what I'm concluding per all the above passages----all of these things support Amil instead, exactly how???

Edited: fixed a typo.

Jesus makes a large promise to His elect in Revelation 3:21: “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.”

I am sure you would agree that it would have to be a mighty big throne to sit all the redeemed at the one time on. Is this what it is literally saying? Or, is there a spiritual meaning here?

I believe He is talking about the spiritual standing we enjoy “in Christ” through our spiritual union with him.” When you are united to Christ you possess spiritual power and authority. Anything that we are, or anything that we possess, that is of any spiritual worth, emanates solely from what Christ has done for us and how we partake in that.

Our Lord promises that we will one day sit with Him on His throne and share His power and authority.

Revelation 2:25-27 says, “that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule (poimaino) them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be ‘broken to shivers’ (suntribo): even as I received of my Father.”

That is just talking about judgment day, nothing more, nothing less. Where is a future 1,000 years mentioned there? Nowhere! Premillennialism lacks evidence and corroboration for many of its claims. God’s people are going to join Christ in exercising authority and judgment over the nations on Judgment Day!

The judgment believers possess is in their current spiritual standing in Christ. He rules and reigns over the wicked now. This is a positional thing.

1 Corinthians 6:2-3 says, “Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?”

Scripture clearly shows us that “the saints will judge the world” and “shall judge angels.” In short, the righteous judge the wicked through their spiritual standing “in Christ.” As “joint-heirs” with the Savior (Romans 8:18), we stand with Him in the judgment. This is a very privileged position.

When does this happen?

When Jesus comes in His glory. Jesus said, in Matthew 19:28, “Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

This fits in with countless passages in Holy Writ that demonstrate that judgment day is an event that occurs on the last day, where the righteous are rewarded and the wicked are banished to the lake of fire. We do not need to import anything else into these. For you to do otherwise is to depict your millennium as one ongoing judgment of natural Israel. This is the opposite to classic Premil that elevates Israel to a favor place in their millennium and shows them restoring their whole old covenant apparatus in the presence of Jesus.

This passage locates “the regeneration” at the second coming “when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory.” Here, they will be judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

I don’t believe this is talking about twelve literal stone judgment seats; it is simply referring to the authority that will be exercised by the redeemed when He appears. Unbelieving Israel will be judged by the redeemed saints of all nations – they are “the regeneration” that join Him “when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory” to judge the nations. Israel is shown to be judged at the second coming. Like every other Christ-rejecting nation, they will be cast into the lake of fire. Only those that love Christ will be saved. This is therefore an allusion to the general judgment which occurs at Christ's coming. The elect will judge the Christ rejecting nations and the twelve tribes of Israel that have rejected Christ since His earthly ministry. This passage is simply identifying the group of people that will “sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel” – namely “ye which have followed me, in the regeneration.” This regeneration refers to those who have been changed into Christ's image. This is evidently talking about the elect of all time. It is the elect (both Jew and Gentile) that will judge Christ-rejecting Israel. A future earthly millennial kingdom is not remotely mentioned in this reading.

Jesus said, in Luke 22:29-30: “I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

Luke 22:29-30 is not denoting any particular order but simply two realities that happen when Jesus comes. It is simply reinforcing the fact that we are going to carry authority in the age to come and will enjoy sweet fellowship forever. Again, there is no millennium mentioned or inferred here. You force that into the text.

The righteous witness of the elect will testify against the ungodly on the last day. No one will be without excuse.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 2:25-27 says, “that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule (poimaino) them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be ‘broken to shivers’ (suntribo): even as I received of my Father.”

That is just talking about judgment day. Nothing more, nothing less. Where is your future 1,000 years mentioned there? Nowhere! It is actually Premil that lacks evidence and corroboration. We are going to join Christ in exercising authority and judgment over the nations on Judgment Day!

Right. We will even exercise authority and judgment over the angels. That passage and Matthew 19:28 relate directly to this one:

1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Nowhere do these passages say anything about ruling over people for a thousand years or for a long period of time. It's all about judging, not ruling in the sense that Premils think about.

The judgment believers possess is in their current spiritual standing in Christ. He rules and reigns over the wicked now. This is a positional thing.

1 Corinthians 6:2-3 says, “Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?”

Scripture clearly shows us that “the saints will judge the world” and “shall judge angels.” In short, the righteous judge the wicked through their spiritual standing “in Christ.” As “joint-heirs” with the Savior (Romans 8:18), we stand with Him in the judgment. This is a very privileged position.

Ha! I posted the above before seeing this! Obviously, I agree with what you said here.

When does this happen?

When Jesus comes in His glory. Jesus said, in Matthew 19:28, “Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

This fits in with countless passages in Holy Writ that demonstrate that judgment day is an event that occurs on the last day, where the righteous are rewarded and the wicked are banished to the lake of fire. We do not need to import anything else into these. For you to do otherwise is to depict your millennium as one ongoing judgment of natural Israel.

Right. He's taking that verse completely out of context. If he thinks them judging the twelve tribes has to do with them ruling over the twelve tribes for a thousand years, then does He also think that Jesus judging the sheep and goats has to do with Him ruling over them for a thousand years? I highly doubt it! So, there's never any consistency in His approach to scripture.

This is the opposite to classic Premil that elevates Israel to a favor place in their millennium and shows them restoring their whole old covenant apparatus in the presence of Jesus.

This passage locates “the regeneration” at the second coming “when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory.” Here, they will be judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

I don’t believe this is talking about twelve literal stone judgment seats; it is simply referring to the authority that will be exercised by the redeemed when He appears. Unbelieving Israel will be judged by the redeemed saints of all nations – they are “the regeneration” that join Him “when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory” to judge the nations. Israel is shown to be judged at the second coming. Like every other Christ-rejecting nation, they will be cast into the lake of fire. Only those that love Christ will be saved. This is therefore an allusion to the general judgment which occurs at Christ's coming. The elect will judge the Christ rejecting nations and the twelve tribes of Israel that have rejected Christ since His earthly ministry. This passage is simply identifying the group of people that will “sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel” – namely “ye which have followed me, in the regeneration.” This regeneration refers to those who have been changed into Christ's image. This is evidently talking about the elect of all time. It is the elect (both Jew and Gentile) that will judge Christ-rejecting Israel.

Yes, I agree because Paul said we (the church) will judge the world. That includes all unbelievers from all nations, including Israel.

A future earthly millennial kingdom is not remotely mentioned in this reading.

Right. Not even close at all.

Jesus said, in Luke 22:29-30: “I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

Luke 22:29-30 is not denoting any particular order but simply two realities that happen when Jesus comes. It is simply reinforcing the fact that we are going to carry authority in the age to come and will enjoy sweet fellowship forever. Again, there is no millennium mentioned or inferred here. You force that into the text.

The righteous witness of the elect will testify against the ungodly on the last day. No one will be without excuse.

Agree. Well said.

 

[Scott Downey]

I completely agree, it makes absolutely no sense to have the tares represent all the lost. If that were the case then they should be thinking that people like Hitler should’ve never have been fought against, we should’ve let him grow together with the wheat.

Another thing I’ve seen the Amils point out is that most Premils have sins, death, and unsaved in their millennial kingdom yet apparently, based on their interpretation of this parable, they themselves also have all those same things in their kingdom.

I honestly don’t know who they think they’re kidding, the hypocrisy stands out loud and clear.

Oh yeah, one other thing, since the parable says the servants aren’t supposed to pull up the tares lest they also root up the wheat, it’s the height of hypocrisy when they try to root out any other interpretation of the parable that they disagree with.

They are pulled out at the harvest.
Jesus makes that clear this is a harvest at the end of the age-world.

You have in the parable been shown the 2 spiritual conditions of all men everywhere, the saved versus the condemned.
Jesus never talked about the maybe saved or maybe condemned.

Example with utter assuredness in v24, and v25 exposes that the unsaved who have been spiritually dead unbelieving, who are enabled to hear Christ will live.
That ability can only come from God's Spirit as it is the Spirit that gives life, John 6:63, It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

We were all just like that at one time. But we heard the voice of the Shepherd, as we were of His sheep.

1 Peter 2:25
For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

John 5

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.

26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

 

[Scott Downey]

John 10 is a profound understanding, and I believe it exactly as Jesus said.

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me.

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, [e]as I said to you.

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

30 I and My Father are one.”

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You are a sheep if you are enabled By God to hear the Son and believe in Him, as in God gives to Christ His own sheep.
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John 6
26 Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”

28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

 

[grafted branch]

They are pulled out at the harvest.
Jesus makes that clear this is a harvest at the end of the age-world.

You have in the parable been shown the 2 spiritual conditions of all men everywhere, the saved versus the condemned.
Jesus never talked about the maybe saved or maybe condemned.

Example with utter assuredness in v24, and v25 exposes that the unsaved who have been spiritually dead unbelieving, who are enabled to hear Christ will live.
That ability can only come from God's Spirit as it is the Spirit that gives life, John 6:63, It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

We were all just like that at one time. But we heard the voice of the Shepherd, as we were of His sheep.

1 Peter 2:25
For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

John 5

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.

26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

I agree, the tares are pulled out of the kingdom at the harvest, end of the age and I also agree there are only two conditions of mankind, either saved or unsaved.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

What is your explanation for how the tares get into the kingdom in the first place when only the saved can enter the kingdom?