The False Doctrine of a 7-year Tribulation

[Bobby Jo]

I think the truth has been laid out from what we are given from the Bible, and everyone can read for themselves and decide.

... so long as they read the CORRECT VERSION:

RSV Dan. 9:25 ...to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. 26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off,​

But when people read the FALSE VERSIONS, and read the commentator lies which you promulgate, they can EASILY believe the LIES.


I just prefer to share the TRUTH, not the LIES like some.
Bobby Jo

 

[Hobie]

Also, Daniel had a vision of a humanoid image which, from head down, describes the Babylonian, Persian, Greek, and Roman Empires. Note that the first three are solid parts of the image, while the one depicting the Roman Empire are the two legs, which shows that the Empire was split in two. We know, what Daniel didn't know in the natural but the Holy Spirit knew, that the Roman Empire under Constantine did split in two, with Constantine appointing a leader to manage the Latin part of the Empire, while he ruled the Eastern part from Constantinople, effectively splitting the Empire into two parts at that time. This is conclusive in proving that the Bible is the true word of God, because only God could have known hundreds of hears after Daniel that the Roman Empire was going to split into two parts under Constantine.

Amen!

 

[Bobby Jo]

who are you trying to convince ? your self?

Try ME! Try the Scriptures! Try the FACTS! Or are you afraid?

Is your "safe zone" in a corner of lies? Do you prefer lies over the truth, & doctrines over Scripture? If so, close your eyes, hold your breath, stop your ears, -- and be ignorant.

Alternately, find out exactly what the Scriptures actually say. It may surprise you. But first you have to be willing to throw aside all the lies you've been told, -- and that's not easy.


... and I'm not holding my breath ...
Bobby Jo

 

[Bobby Jo]

@Renniks

Also, Daniel had a vision of a humanoid image which, from head down, describes the Babylonian, Persian, Greek, and Roman Empires. [ = FOUR ]

Not 1,2,3,4a/4b. FIVE: Dan. 2:45, Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE


People can't count, and apparently can't think. Welcome to "christianity".
Bobby Jo

 

[Brakelite]

There is not one verse that says "Trinity" or "Rapture" in exactly those words. That does not make them false doctrines. So your fundamental premise is false, not the doctrine you claim to be false. Lack of comprehension does not make something false.

Although an over active imagination can.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Not so, the scriptures shows this was during the time of the Medo-Persian Empire and looking forward, and what came after it, the Greek Empire with Alexander the Great. Here is a good explanation..."The 2300 day prophecy in Daniel is the longest time prophecy in the Bible and is of vital importance to understand, and yet the truth of this important prophecy is rarely heard today. But on this page you will see this great prophecy come to light. Please prayerfully study this subject and ask God to guide you.

Daniel 8:13-14 ...'Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said, unto two thousand and three hundred days, then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.'

There are two sanctuaries mentioned in Daniel 8. In verse 11, we have 'miqdash', which can be a sanctuary dedicated to either God or an idol. And in verses 13 and 14 we have 'qodesh', which refers specifically to a holy place of God. So "the sanctuary" to be cleansed at the end of this 2300 day time period, as mentioned above refers to a holy place of God. We know that there is no longer an earthly sanctuary which was used by the Levitical priesthood, so this sanctuary must be the original sanctuary in heaven where Jesus dwells and mediates for us (which Pauls confirmed in Hebrews 8 and 9).

Let us confirm an important point first. The majority of other Christians believe that this prophecy relates to a literal 2300 DAYS, and that it will happen in the last days. But this cannot be right. If you read the vision in Daniel 8, you will see that it talks about a ram, a goat and a little horn. And Gabriel actually confirms who the ram and goat represent. They represent Medo-Persia and Greece. Which means the horn that comes after them is Rome. Both Pagan and Papal Rome.

So what does this mean? Think about it. If the vision concerning the 2300 'days' includes Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome, then that time frame of "2300 days" MUST be able to span those nations. Would 2300 literal days span those nations? No, but 2300 YEARS would! And this also means the 2300 "days" HAVE to start sometime during the reign of Medo-Persia, because that is the first kingdom in the vision (the ram).

This also lines up with the fact that the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel 9 is PART of the 2300 day vision, because at the end of Daniel 8 it says that no one understood the 2300 day vision. Then in Daniel 9, Gabriel says he has come to give Daniel understanding about THE VISION. What vision? The only one that is not understood is the 2300 "days". Gabriel then goes on to explain the 70 weeks prophecy, which everyone agrees is not 70 literal weeks (490 days), but 490 YEARS. So the 2300 prophetic "days" also HAVE to be YEARS.

And this all falls into line with the DAY FOR A YEAR principle in Bible prophecy.

Another reason why the 70 weeks prophecy has to be part of the 2300, is that without the 70 weeks which Gabriel gives to help Daniel understand the 2300 "days" (years), we would not have a starting point for the 2300 years, which would render that prophecy useless. But with the 70 weeks, we have a starting date.

The Vision
So to get a complete picture of this "vision" and a true understanding of it, let's start in Daniel 8, which is where this 2300 day "vision" begins. Daniel 8:2 ...'And I saw in a vision' ... So Daniel is now in a vision.

(v3) ...'Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns.'

(v5) ...'And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.'

Notice that these two animals are animals that were used in the Old Testament "sanctuary" service. This is another point which shows that the 2300 "days" (years) which deals with the sanctuary are connected to Medo-Persia and Greece, and cannnot be placed in the last days. So just to confirm without doubt the identity of these two animals, let us read what Gabriel says.

Daniel 8:20-21 ...'The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.'

Then in verse 9 we have this little horn that comes out from one of the "four winds of heaven", which basically represents the four directions of the earth. Now what kingdom rose to power after Greece? Pagan Rome! Which later on became Papal Rome, as Pagan Rome handed power over to Papal Rome - the Roman Catholic Church. Let's look at this 'little horn'.

Daniel 8:9-12 ...'And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down. And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.'

So this little horn, which rises after Greece 'waxes exceeding great', coming from the West, and conquers lands in the South, the East and also the 'pleasant land', which is Palestine. This refers in the first instance to the Pagan Roman Empire, which ruled also during the first advent of Christ and put Christ on the cross. Hence the term 'magnified himself, even to the prince of the host.'...2300 Day Bible Prophecy in Daniel

Read my post #57

 

[Bobby Jo]

... ask God to guide you.

HE has, through HIS angel:

Dan. 12:4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”
9 He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end.​

So if anyone says that Daniel's prophecies are ANCIENT, they're LIARS.


Bobby Jo

 

[marksman]

There is not one verse in the entire Bible says their a 7-year Tribulation. Some try to claim Daniel 9:24-27 as teaching this, but unless one comes to this passage already having a predisposed bias, they will not find it there. This false idea is not scriptural and no biblical commentator, no theologian, no church in Christendom had ever taught such a doctrine. The doctrine basically did not exist before John Darby, and was promoted through the wide circulation of the Scofield Reference Bible in the early 20th century. The idea or doctrine of a 7-year Tribulation is simply not mentioned in Daniel 9. Here is a great explanation by my buddy palehorse..'There are many theories out there in regards to the 70th Week of the Daniel 9 prophecy. The most prevalent one talks about a 7-year tribulation just prior to Christ's second coming. Many believers in the 7-year Tribulation don't know that this belief is rooted in the Daniel 9 prophecy. In fact, one of the most important verses used to support this idea is Dan 9:27, which we will look at along with the entire prophecy. Also, it is from Dan 9:27 that the belief in "The Antichrist" and the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple on the temple mount comes from. The series of events outlined in this theory is that 1) there will be a secret rapture that takes all true Christians away leaving others behind, 2) then a 7-year tribulation occurs where those who were not taken in the secret rapture will get a chance to "clean up their act" so that when Christ's public appearance happens they can be judged worthy, 3) during the course of the 7-year tribulation the Antichrist will appear, make a covenant with the Jewish nation, then break that covenant in the middle of the 7 years, then he’ll walk inside the Jewish temple and declare himself to be God. But is this theory biblically accurate? That is just what my essay explores.

If you would like to do the right thing and put your post into paragraphs, it will be more readable, more understandable and more people would read it.

 

[Bobby Jo]

If you would like to do the right thing and put your post into paragraphs, it will be more readable, more understandable and more people would read it.

or bullets/numbers:

1. Daniel 9:2 specifies "years".

2. Daniel 9:2 does not use the simple shama to perceive the prophecy of Jeremiah as though reading that book, but rather the Solomon biyn (Ref. 1 Kings 3) to perceive the prophecy in the BOOKS.

3. Per Young, the Daniel 9:25 "going forth of the word" does NOT have the inference of any edict from man, but rather an edict directly from GOD, which discounts Cyrus' participation, and demands a PROPHETIC WORD in Scripture.

4. The Daniel 9:25 seven is one duration with the first anointed one "coming" after the seven years.

5. The Daniel 9:25-26 sixty-two is a second duration with a second anointed one who is cut off after the sixty-two.

6. The "weeks"/"week" are the inconcise Masculine gender text, which is ONLY found in Daniel 9, and NOT in Daniel 10 or anywhere else in Scripture, -- and are specifically NOT 490 years.

7. The second anointed one who is cut off is not killed upon the sixty-two, but simply AFTER.

8. The destroyer does not come at the beginning, middle, or upon the end of the seventieth shabuwa, but "shall come" after the seventieth shabuwa.

9. The seven, the sixty-two, the seventieth, and after the seventieth are chronologically connected, with NO ~2,000 year gaps.

10. This prophecy is shut up and sealed until the time of the end, which is approximate to 1948.​

Easy peazy,
Bobby Jo

 

[quietthinker]

I really don't care, after you've been warned.

Your attitude towards others is clear.....If they don't hold your position you have no concern for them....rather dictatorial and oppressive; quiet the opposite of him who left the 99 to seek out the 1.

 

[Bobby Jo]

Your attitude towards others is clear.....If they don't hold your position you have no concern for them....rather dictatorial and oppressive; quiet the opposite of him who left the 99 to seek out the 1.

You confuse accountability with abuse. How many times did Jesus rebuke his disciples? How many times did Jesus rebuke the Sadducees & Pharisees?
According to your perverse perspective Jesus was abusive.

Given that in the "church" today Jesus would be walked to the edge of the cliff, I'm in pretty good company.
Bobby Jo

 

[Brakelite]

. 9 And out of one of them came a little horn (Antiochus Epiphanes IV) which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land (Jerusalem).

There are several reasons why Antiochus can not be that "little horn" of Daniel 8. I agree with you that the little horn of Daniel 7 and 8 are different, but they are related. As for Antiochus...
The very first reason why he does not answer to this prophecy is inherent in the very words quoted above, "grew exceedingly great". Alexander was described as growing great only a few verses previously... Are we to expect them that Antiochus free greater than Alexander the Great?? Even Antiochus' for was greater than Antiochus, yet not sure great as Alexander. Exceeding great? No, not at all.
There are other reasons also why Antiochus does not answer to the prophecy.
Reasons why Antiochus cannot be the little horn of Daniel 8.
a. Antiochus was not a horn in his own right. He was of the Seleucid line therefore was a part of one of the four.
b. He did not wax exceeding great. In fact his father was greater, but neither was as great as even Babylon or Media Persia, certainly no greater than Alexander. Yet the prophecy demands that the little horn be greater than any empire before it.
c. He does not fit the time periods. According to Maccabees 1:54,59, and 4:52 Antiochus suppressed the sacrifices exactly 3 years. This fits neither the 1260 days , (times time and half a time,) nor the 2300 days (evenings and mornings of Daniel 8:14). These figures do not compliment one another NOR do they meet the reign of Antiochus.
d. The 2300 days is prophetic. Using the day/year principle established elsewhere as being the standard and norm for interpreting prophetic time periods, it is a literal 2300 years.

 

[Bobby Jo]

There are several reasons why Antiochus can not be that "little horn" of Daniel 8. ...

Here's one:

Dan. 12:4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”
9 He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end.​

... the blind leading the blind. Shall not BOTH fall into the pit?
Bobby Jo


To All,
There's only ONE "exceedingly great" (some 8M sq. miles) end-time government which expanded it's empire "toward the South", "toward the East", and WILL SOON MARCH "toward the Glorious Land". And it ain't China or the U.S.

And one of it's former Premier's, who I anticipate will one again take the reigns of leadership, had a tenure which lasted 2,300 days.


But I hate to spoil the "Snipe Hunt". (Shhhh, -- for those who don't know, the "snipe" is a non-existent animal! )
Bobby Jo

 

[quietthinker]

Keep running. You can't out-run the TRUTH, and the LIES you promulgate WILL CATCH UP TO YOU.


There's NO "seven & sixty-two". It's TWO separate durations.
Bobby Jo


To All,

How can someone seek the TRUTH of GOD, and the twist it into the LIES of MEN?!? It's inconceivable that someone would impugn GOD's Word to preserve their FALSE RELIGIOUS DOCTRINES. I know it happens, and I seen it face-to-face, but to live it HAS TO BE a TERRIBLE existence.

To Live A LIE!!!
Bobby Jo

Your bluff and bluster BJ is worthless.....it only serves to harden your heart against the scripture.

 

[Bobby Jo]

Your bluff and bluster BJ is worthless.....it only serves to harden your heart against the scripture.

If you knew what Scripture was you'd obey it, but all you do is accuse. So I guess we know where your obedience is.

But if you wanted to provide any Scriptural or Societal precedent where two non-incremental numbers are used, -- typical of the FALSE "seven and sixty-two" --, then please do. Remember, four score and ten; a mile and a quarter, and a dozen and a half are LEGITIMATE. But there were NO seven and one hundred and forty six FISH; NO seven and five DISCIPLES; and a pair of shoes do not cost seven and sixty-two dollars.


Whew, what rocks do people crawl out from under?!?
Bobby Jo

 

[quietthinker]

Right, they remain unfulfilled.

Know and understand this:
Daniel 9:24 Seventy sevens are decreed for your people and your holy city – to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, vision and prophecy ratified and the Most Holy place anointed.

Daniel 9:25-27 Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until the Anointed One, the ruler comes – there will be seven sevens and sixty two sevens. It will be rebuilt with streets and drains, but in troubled times. After the 62 sevens, the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come, will destroy the city and sanctuary. The end will come like a flood. War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. He will confirm a covenant with the many for one ‘seven’. In the middle of the seven, he will put an end to the sacrifice and offering. In the Temple, he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out upon him.
Reference REB, NIV, KJV.

Verse 24 - The Angel Gabriel’s message for the end of this age:

1/To complete and finalize the transgressions of the wicked peoples.[Time of the Gentiles]

2/ To make an end to disobedience against God. [Punishment of His enemies]

3/ To make reconciliation for iniquity. [Forgiveness for His people]

4/ To usher in the age of Righteousness. [The Christians– ‘a light to the nations’]

5/ To fulfil prophesy. [The promises to the Patriarchs and to Israel]

6/ To sanctify the Temple. [The Third Temple, built by the people of New Israel; Beulah- Isaiah 62:1-5]


Verse 25: 70 times 7 = 490 years. The first 7 ‘weeks’ = 49 years, starts from the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem in the 20th year of the reign of Artaxerxes. This was in 445BC. Jerusalem’s walls and streets were rebuilt ‘even in troublous times’. As Nehemiah and Ezra describe.

Verse 26 Then another 62 ‘weeks’ = 434 years, plus the 49, makes a total of 483 prophetic years until ‘Messiah, the Prince, is cut off’.

‘There shall be nothing for Him’, means that at that time He did not receive the Millennium Kingdom. ‘The people of the ruler to come, will destroy Jerusalem, including the Temple’, refers to the Roman destruction in 69/70AD. This gives us the clue to the origin of the Anti Christ, who will lead a restored Roman Empire.

Then, there has been a gap of nearly 2000 years, till the present day.

The end period; the 70th of the 7 ‘weeks’ = 7 years will be made up of 2 periods of 1260 days each. It will be the closing time of this age, ‘the end shall be with a flood’. Flood is better translated as – an overflowing; of troubles. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

Verse 27 The Anti Christ will make a 7 year treaty with the ‘many’. That is, the holy people of God: every born again Christian, living in their own Land. There will be a faithful group who will oppose this agreement, so this treaty is made with many, but not all of His people, the Israelites of God. Daniel 11:32, Isaiah 28:15.

The Anti Christ will break this after 1260 days, which will commence the Great Tribulation. He sets up his own image in the Temple, 2 Thessalonians 2:4, then after the final 1260 days, he will meet his end. Daniel 11:45, Revelation 19:20.

Splitting off the last week from the 70 weeks makes no sense at all particularly given the language that is used. What is more apparent is the attempt to force an erroneous preconceived idea into the prophecy.

 

[quietthinker]

You confuse accountability with abuse. How many times did Jesus rebuke his disciples? How many times did Jesus rebuke the Sadducees & Pharisees?
According to your perverse perspective Jesus was abusive.

Given that in the "church" today Jesus would be walked to the edge of the cliff, I'm in pretty good company.
Bobby Jo

your statement 'I really don't care, after you've been warned.' was not a rebuke. It was a revealing of where your heart lies. In the above statement you are trying to subvert that fact.....you're a slippery operator BJ with enough pride to be unaware when you've shot yourself in the foot.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Are we to expect them that Antiochus free greater than Alexander the Great?? Even Antiochus' for was greater than Antiochus, yet not sure great as Alexander. Exceeding great? No, not at all.

Not in the same way that Alexander the Great was "great" over the world, but over Israel he was the most barbaric of them all, torturing them by even frying them alive on a huge skillet over fire. There have only been two Jewish revolts, and the first was over the psychopath, Antiochus Ephiphanes IV, the little horn of Daniel 8. He defiled the temple by slaughtering a filthy pig on the altar and it was Jacob Maccabees who cleansed the temple after the death of the king. No other Grecian king fits Daniel 8's prophecy to a "T". And the length of time of the Jewish revolt just happens to have been 2300 days. (evenings and mornings, just like a day in creation week) To force that into years, and to start the timing in the days prior to Greece from a different prophecy (Daniel 9) is ludicrous. And at the end of 2300 years, nothing of note happened on the earth, let alone in the middle. So what do you do? Make it invisible to us, and call it the Investigative Judgment, totally unverifiable in Scripture.

Daniel 9's last week (vs. 27) had the same amount of time. 7 years, and that pointed to the second Jewish revolt from 66 AD to 73 AD with the total destruction of the temple in 70 AD (in the middle of the week) when sacrificing totally and finally came to a stop. Even in the 70 weeks prophecy, Jesus was already cut off, so verse 27 is not about Jesus, but the fulfillment of the prophecy that Jesus spoke about where not one brick would be upon another.

 

[CharismaticLady]

a. Antiochus was not a horn in his own right. He was of the Seleucid line therefore was a part of one of the four.

Yes, he came out of one of the four just as Daniel 8 claims! You say he wasn't a horn - he was a KING. That, my friend, is a horn.

8 Therefore the male goat grew very great; but when he became strong, the large horn was broken, and in place of it four notable ones came up toward the four winds of heaven. 9 And out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land. (Antiochus built a navy and conquered Cyprus and large parts of Egypt.)10 And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them. 11 He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down.

 

[Bobby Jo]

... .

STOP SLANDERING and answer the question. Oh, I see, you can't answer what Scripture provides, so ALL YOU CAN DO IS SLANDER.

Go Away. Do what you want, and you will receive your "reward".
Bobby Jo