The False Doctrine of a 7-year Tribulation

[CharismaticLady]

There is not one verse in the entire Bible says their a 7-year Tribulation.

The verses you say don't exist are in Revelation. This also proves that Christians are not raptured in some secret rapture seven years before the second coming. (@marks and @Paul Christensen)

Great Tribulation

Unsaved National Israel (the Woman) being saved:

(safe first 3 ½ years)

Revelation 12:6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

(safe second 3 ½ years)

Revelation 12:14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.

one thousand two hundred and sixty days
time and times and half a time
Totals 7 years


Christians/the rest of her offspring (the fullness of the Gentiles has already been saved. No more Gentiles will be saved during the GT):

(persecuted first 3 ½ years)

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (vs. 14 time and times and half a time (3 ½ years)

(persecuted second 3 ½ years)

Revelation 13:5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them.

time and times and half a time
forty-two months
Total: 7 years

 

[Keraz]

The verses you say don't exist are in Revelation. This also proves that Christians are not raptured in some secret rapture seven years before the second coming. (@marks and @Paul Christensen)

Great Tribulation

Israel:

(safe first 3 ½ years)

Revelation 12:6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

(safe second 3 ½ years)

Revelation 12:14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.


Christians:

(persecuted first 3 ½ years)

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (vs. 14 time and times and half a time (3 ½ years)

(persecuted second 3 ½ years)

Revelation 13:5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them.

As there is only ONE people of God, this scenario is incorrect.
One people, one Promise; John 17:20-23, Ephesians 4:4-6, Romans 2:10-11, +

Revelation 12:6-17 is about Christians, the followers of Jesus; His offspring.
We all remain on earth, in two groups as Daniel 11:32-35 shows.

 

[CharismaticLady]

As there is only ONE people of God, this scenario is incorrect.
One people, one Promise; John 17:20-23, Ephesians 4:4-6, Romans 2:10-11, +

Revelation 12:6-17 is about Christians, the followers of Jesus; His offspring.
We all remain on earth, in two groups as Daniel 11:32-35 shows.

Correct, there is one church; this is based on Romans 11. After the fullness of the Gentiles comes into the Church while the unsaved Jews were partially blinded, the blindness will be removed and the focus will return again to national Jews for seven years to come into the one and only Church. I edited my post to show instead of "Israel" to "National Israel being saved" (That should clear up any confusion for you).

Who do you believe the Woman is? It is Israel. Israel is the lineage of Christ. And there is no such thing as some secret pre-trib rapture.

 

[marksman]

or bullets/numbers:

1. Daniel 9:2 specifies "years".

2. Daniel 9:2 does not use the simple shama to perceive the prophecy of Jeremiah as though reading that book, but rather the Solomon biyn (Ref. 1 Kings 3) to perceive the prophecy in the BOOKS.

3. Per Young, the Daniel 9:25 "going forth of the word" does NOT have the inference of any edict from man, but rather an edict directly from GOD, which discounts Cyrus' participation, and demands a PROPHETIC WORD in Scripture.

4. The Daniel 9:25 seven is one duration with the first anointed one "coming" after the seven years.

5. The Daniel 9:25-26 sixty-two is a second duration with a second anointed one who is cut off after the sixty-two.

6. The "weeks"/"week" are the inconcise Masculine gender text, which is ONLY found in Daniel 9, and NOT in Daniel 10 or anywhere else in Scripture, -- and are specifically NOT 490 years.

7. The second anointed one who is cut off is not killed upon the sixty-two, but simply AFTER.

8. The destroyer does not come at the beginning, middle, or upon the end of the seventieth shabuwa, but "shall come" after the seventieth shabuwa.

9. The seven, the sixty-two, the seventieth, and after the seventieth are chronologically connected, with NO ~2,000 year gaps.

10. This prophecy is shut up and sealed until the time of the end, which is approximate to 1948.​

Easy peazy,
Bobby Jo

I am still none the wiser about the false 7 year tribulation.

 

[Keraz]

Correct, there is one church; this is based on Romans 11. After the fullness of the Gentiles comes into the Church while the unsaved Jews were partially blinded, the blindness will be removed and the focus will return again to national Jews for seven years to come into the one and only Church. I edited my post to show instead of "Israel" to "National Israel being saved" (That should clear up any confusion for you).

Who do you believe the Woman is? It is Israel. Israel is the lineage of Christ. And there is no such thing as some secret pre-trib rapture.

There is only one people of God. Call them 'church' or 'ekkelasia', people from every tribe, race, nation and language. Including those Jews who have accepted Jesus now. 1 Peter 2:9-10
Many prophesies tell us what the fate of Jesus rejecting Jews will be. They will be wiped out and the only a few Christian survivors will remain. Romans 9:27, Amos 2:4-5, Isaiah 22:14 We Christians are the true lineage of Christ.

The idea of a general Jewish redemption is a tenet of the 'rapture' theory; them in heaven and the Jews going thru Tribulation. Neither idea is in the Bible.

 

[Stranger]

There is only one people of God. Call them 'church' or 'ekkelasia', people from every tribe, race, nation and language. Including those Jews who have accepted Jesus now. 1 Peter 2:9-10
Many prophesies tell us what the fate of Jesus rejecting Jews will be. They will be wiped out and the only a few Christian survivors will remain. Romans 9:27, Amos 2:4-5, Isaiah 22:14 We Christians are the true lineage of Christ.

The idea of a general Jewish redemption is a tenet of the 'rapture' theory; them in heaven and the Jews going thru Tribulation. Neither idea is in the Bible.

That is not true. The idea of a national redemption for Israel is found throughout Scripture. The only way you get around it is to redefine Israel as the Church.

Stranger

 

[Jay Ross]

Correct, there is one church; this is based on Romans 11. After the fullness of the Gentiles comes into the Church while the unsaved Jews were partially blinded, the blindness will be removed and the focus will return again to national Jews for seven years to come into the one and only Church. I edited my post to show instead of "Israel" to "National Israel being saved" (That should clear up any confusion for you).

Who do you believe the Woman is? It is Israel. Israel is the lineage of Christ. And there is no such thing as some secret pre-trib rapture.

As usual, you are quoting the more modern translations which IMHO give the wrong impression of what is being written about by Paul. Paul was not speaking about how many heathen Gentiles come into the church, he was referencing the heathen Gentiles Trampling the Sanctuary of God in Jerusalem and His earthly hosts for 2,300 years, which is due to be completed in our near future in around 24 years time, after which all of Israel will then be saved. However, you believe that the Daniel 8:13-14 prophecy was fulfilled during the years 167-160 BC in the Maccabees revolt, so the context of what Paul was saying has been completely modified to being a very different message that the gathering of the Christians from Gentile stocks will be completed before Israel will be redeemed.

Let us consider what Christ taught as recorded in Luke 24 where we have recorded these words: -

Luke 21:20-24: - The Destruction of Jerusalem
(Matt 24:15-28; Mark 13:14-23)

20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.​

The verses 20-24a is speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem, the Temple and the Israelites being lead away as slaves into all of the nations of the earth. In verse 24b, we have Jesus emphatically stating that Jerusalem will be trampled by the Heathen Gentiles until the full time of the Heathen Gentiles is fulfilled, and He was saying this around 190 years after the Maccabees Revolt.

Paul in Romans 11:25-26 was echoing Jesus' statement in Luke 21:24b, but he was also confirming that the visitation of the iniquities of the fathers during the first two ages of this existence, from the time that Isaac was born, up to when Jesus was born, would be visited on their children and their children's children in the third and the fourth ages, with the third and the fourth time period being the same as the first and second time period.

If this is true, then the time period is a little longer than 2,000 + years so that at this present time we are waiting for the completion of the + years to come to its conclusion in around 24 years time. (Ex 20:4-6)

Now in 2001-9-11, we experience a portion of the Rev 16:12-16 Bowl judgement being played out before our very eyes, where the whole world watched the signs and wonders being performed through the use of the three foul frog like "creatures" in the air and their resulting destruction when they came crashing to the ground. This Bowl judgement will be completed at the end of this present age, when the Kings of the earth and their armies are assemble at Armageddon to be judge by God/Jesus, {I am not sure who will do the judging.} when the prophetic scripture, Isaiah 24:21-22 will be fulfilled.

It is during the time of the judging of the Kings of the earth at Armageddon that the "king" of the Israelite people will send a delegation to the King, who is doing battle with the kings of the earth in judgement of them for their trampling of God's sanctuary and hosts for 2,300 years, to seek His terms of peace. Luke 14:31-32. This is the event that Paul was referring to as to the timing of when all of Israel will be saved.

When we wrongly interpret/understand God's prophecies, the flawed understandings multiply and the prophecies and their true understandings are hidden from us.

Shalom

 

[Brakelite]

Yes, he came out of one of the four just as Daniel 8 claims! You say he wasn't a horn - he was a KING. That, my friend, is a horn.

8 Therefore the male goat grew very great; but when he became strong, the large horn was broken, and in place of it four notable ones came up toward the four winds of heaven. 9 And out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land. (Antiochus built a navy and conquered Cyprus and large parts of Egypt.)10 And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them. 11 He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down.

Antiochus was not a horn or a kingdom. A Horn of a beast is never taken for a single person, but signifies a new kingdom. The "four horns" of the He-goat were "four kingdoms" (Daniel 8:22). Antiochus was merely one of a line of kings and not a separate kingdom. Hence he was merely a part of one of the horns. Antiochus reigned over one of the four horns and "the little horn" was a fifth power which came out of one if the four winds. Therefore, Antiochus was not the "little horn". Rome was "the little horn.”.
Antiochus certainly did not "wax exceeding great". He was not even the strongest of the Seleucid section of Alexander's kingdom. Antiochus was weak and was tributary to the Romans.
Antiochus certainly did not wax "exceeding great towards the south" Daniel 8:9. His march to the south to Egypt was stopped by the mere word of an unarmed Roman officer. When Antiochus said he would think about the Roman's demand the Roman drew a circle in the sand around Antiochus and told him he would do his thinking within that circle. Antiochus turned and retreated. He was frightened out of Egypt by an unarmed representative of Rome. He was later routed by the Jews. To apply this prophecy of a world power a super power which waxed "exceeding great towards the south" to this cruel but weak creature appears to be the height of folly and is advanced merely to avoid or explain away this divine prophecy. His push to the east resulted in his death. He certainly did not wax "exceeding great" in that direction. It is very apparent that the "little horn" of either Daniel 7 and 8 does not apply to Antiochus Epiphanes. The facts do not fit the specifications of Prophecy. Applying the prophecy to Antiochus was a poor pagan's attempt to avoid his God required responsibilities and to excuse his rejection of truth. He tried to discredit the divine predictions of the one whom Christ called "Daniel the Prophet". Daniel was not a mere historian as this truth-rejector would imply. The finger of Daniel’s prophecy points with infallible accuracy to the awful Roman apostasy that climaxed in the Papacy who cast down the truth, wears out the saints of the Most High, and continues through the "time of the end" and will continue to the "end of time". Antiochus Epiphanes was one of the weakest of the kings of Syria. He gave himself the name “Epiphanes" = "The Illustrious". Prideaux, the historian says that this title could not be more alien to his character. The Syrian people called him “Epimanes" - "The Madman". The prophecy points to not only a persecuting power that would “cast down some to the host and of the stars to the ground and stamped upon them?” But he also "magnified himself even to the Prince of the host" (Christ) Daniel 8:10, 11. "He shall stand up against the Prince of princes" Christ. Daniel 8:25. This Rome did but Antiochus died 164 years before Christ. Antiochus just does not meet the specifications of prophecy. If a power meets some of the specifications but not all of them, then it must be rejected.

Here's something else... [The ram] became great. . . . Therefore the he goat waxed very great . . . . a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. (Dan. 8:4-9) Clearly, the little horn must become greater than either Medo-Persia or Alexander's Grecian empire in three directions in a precise order. Antiochus's conquests, pseudo-conquests, and failures never attained to the glory of Cyrus the Great or Alexander. He went east last, not second, and perished there. In stark contrast, Rome excelled all in might, annexing Carthage to its south first, Macedonia, Syria, and Egypt to the east second, and Judea third. Thus Rome fulfilled the prophecy to a "T," even getting the order of conquest right. The position that Daniel 8's little horn had something to do with pagan and/or papal Rome was held by such greats in the past as Martin Luther (1522), Philip Melanchthon (1543), Heinrich Bullinger (1557), George Downham (1603), Sir Isaac Newton (1727), the Berlenburg Bible (1743), Thomas Newton (1754), and John William Fletcher (1800)

 

[Hobie]

The verses you say don't exist are in Revelation. This also proves that Christians are not raptured in some secret rapture seven years before the second coming. (@marks and @Paul Christensen)

Great Tribulation

Unsaved National Israel (the Woman) being saved:

(safe first 3 ½ years)

Revelation 12:6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

(safe second 3 ½ years)

Revelation 12:14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.

one thousand two hundred and sixty days
time and times and half a time
Totals 7 years


Christians/the rest of her offspring (the fullness of the Gentiles has already been saved. No more Gentiles will be saved during the GT):

(persecuted first 3 ½ years)

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (vs. 14 time and times and half a time (3 ½ years)

(persecuted second 3 ½ years)

Revelation 13:5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them.

time and times and half a time
forty-two months
Total: 7 years

You have to understand that it is prophetic years which is one day equals a year. The day-year principle, year-day principle or year-for-a-day principle is a method of interpretation of Bible prophecy in which the word day in prophecy is considered to be symbolic of a year of actual time.

The fact that a day can signify a year is of crucial importance in the study of Bible Prophecy. This view was recognized by the Jews as seen in Daniel 9:24-27, and as seen in Jesus' use of the day-year principle in Luke 13 verses 31-33, and in the early church. The Reformers and many others, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Ulrich Zwingli, John Wycliffe, John Knox, William Tyndale, Phillip Melanchthon, Sir Isaac Newton, Jan Huss, John Foxe, John Wesley, Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, Charles Finney, C. H. Spurgeon, Matthew Henry, Adam Clarke, Albert Barnes, E. B. Elliot, H. Grattan Guinness, and Bishop Thomas Newton understood this to name just a few.

We can see this in the prophecy in Daniel 9 in which seventy literal weeks would not be enough time to accomplish all the things mentioned as having to transpire within the scope of Daniel's "seventy-weeks" vision. For this reason, most Biblical scholars view the seventy weeks of Daniel as symbolic years.:

Daniel 9:24-27
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The 70 week prophecy of Daniel 9 in verse 24, establishes a principle related to prophetic time. Virtually everyone acknowledges that the 70 weeks are not literally 70 weeks, but rather 70 weeks of years, or 490 years. The principle is that in Bible prophecy, you must substitute a period of a year in place of a day. This is the day=year principle. This equation is clearly established in scripture:

Numbers 14:34
King James Version (KJV)
34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.

In this verse, a relationship between day and year is clear, each day will equate to a literal year. For the forty days that Israel spied in Canaan in unbelief, they would be punished by wandering forty years in the desert.


Ezekiel 4:6
King James Version (KJV)
6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

Here again, the equation is stated quite openly, a prophetic day represents a literal year. So to return to the 70 weeks of Daniel, you must first determine the number of days represented. Seventy weeks is 70 x 7 or 490 days, which will then equate to a literal 490 years in the fulfillment of the prophecy.

 

[Hobie]

Lets go over the prophetic time periods to be found in scripture is the time, times and half a time which is mentioned in Daniel and Revelation:

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

If we look back to Daniel we see the word 'time' in this context refers to a period of a year. In the story of King Nebuchadnezzar, he went crazy for seven years and ate grass as an ox as seen in Daniel 4:32:

Daniel 4:32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

So in prophetic reading we see the days equal years, so lets look how many days are in a time, times and half a time, it means time (or 1 year), times (or 2 years) and half a time (or 1/2 year) or a total of 3 1/2 years. Most people who look at it would stop at this point and accept the 3 1/2 years only at face value.

But these are prophetic years so each day is a year and 3 1/2 years would be 3 1/2 times a Jewish year of 360 days (360 x 3.5= 1260) so comes out to 1260 days, and a prophetic day equals a year so using the same methodology as is used for the 70 weeks of Daniel we calculate it to actually represent 1260 literal years. So, Time, Times and half a Time in prophecy is really 1260 years! To confirm this formula we need only to look at the book of Revelation.

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Here the woman represents the faithful church, who flees into the wilderness for 1260 days. Again using the day=year formula, this actually speaks of 1260 years that the church would be persecuted. Now look at verse 14:

Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Here the exact same time of persecution is referred to as 3 1/2 times, again meaning the same period of 1260 days/years as found in verse 6. In the book of Daniel, we saw this exact same period of persecution in church history:

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

This verse in context is referring to a period of time that the little horn or Antichrist power will persecute the true believers or true church, again for 1260 years. The same is true for the time given "that it shall be for a time, times, and an half" for Daniel 12:7

 

[Hobie]

So the question some ask, is why is it not a year equal to 365 days as we hold today, and that's a valid question. But you have to understand that in ancient times the year was held to be at 360 days. The fact that the prophets understood a year as 360 days is well attested, and can be seen in the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation as seen in the use of "time, times and half a time" (i.e. 1+2+0.5=3.5), "1,260 days" and "42 months". These references represent a period of 1260 years (based on the 360 day Jewish year multiplied by 3.5). Divide 1,260 days by 42 months and you will get a 30-day month, as 12 months of 30 days equals 360-days in a year

These time periods occur eight times in scripture:
Daniel 7:25, "time, times and a half".
Daniel 9:27, "half one set of seven".
Daniel 12:7, "time, times and a half".
Revelation 11:2, "42 months".
Revelation 11:3, "1260 days".
Revelation 12:6, "1260 days".
Revelation 12:14, "time, times and a half".
Revelation 13:5, "42 months".

We see it in the following Bible verses referring to the period translated, "time".

And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. Daniel 7:25

And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and a half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. Daniel 12:7

And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. Revelation 12:14

The three primary precedents in Scripture:

1.Numbers 14:34. The Israelites will wander for 40 years in the wilderness, one year for every day spent by the spies in Canaan.

2.Ezekiel 4:5-6. The prophet Ezekiel is commanded to lie on his left side for 390 days, followed by his right side for 40 days, to symbolize the equivalent number of years of punishment on Israel and Judah respectively.

3.Daniel 9:24-27. This is known as the Prophecy of Seventy Weeks. The majority of scholars do understand the passage to refer to 70 "sevens" or "septets" of years—that is, a total of 490 years.

So its clear, the "time, times and half a time" (i.e. 1+2+0.5=3.5), "1,260 days" and "42 months" mentioned in Daniel and Revelation represent a period of 1260 years (based on the 360 day Jewish year multiplied by 3.5).

The "1,260 days" spanned the Middle Ages and historicists throughout history have identified the "1,260 days" as being fulfilled by rise of the Papacy and its temporal power being taken, from 538 AD to 1798, or Napoleon's Roman Republic.

So who is this apostate Antichrist power which persecutes and burns at the stake the true believers.

 

[Hobie]

If one looks history shows how the abandonment of Rome by the Emperors, was the liberation of the pagan antichrist power and it grew into what it called itself at one point the "Holy Roman Empire" and all powerful religious apostate church as seen in the system of worship all the way from the Pontiff of Babylon. The conversion of the empire to Christianity, and then its removal of the Empires seat from Rome, freed the papacy from temporal subjection under the Empire and it grew into a persecuting antichrist power whose terrible acts went on clearly during these 1260 years.

The following verses also refer prophetically to this period of 1260 years of apostasy prevailing in the church:

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

The two witnesses is a reference to the Old and New Testament scriptures. For 1260 years scriptural truth would be suppressed, obscured by the traditions of men and all you have to do is ask what church set aside Gods Word and go by its own tradition.

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

The true church would flee persecution by the apostate church, with its burning at the stake and forming inquisitions to persecute the true believers.

This antichrist power would become a very powerful religious organization as well as political power. It would be guilty of blasphemy and would war with and persecute the saints . So who persecuted and destroyed millions of saints during the Dark Ages. History shows us and unveils who this apostate church was.

And it would reign for 42 prophetic months, which equals 1,260 years and history clearly shows this happened. The papacy reigned unshackled and supreme over kings and governments for 42 prophetic months, which equals 1,260 years, from its rise in A.D. 538 not long after the death of Theodoric the strong Ostrogothic king and the defeat of the barbarian tribes around Rome and the Roman code of law restored in Rome along with taking of temporal power as the papacy grew stronger, and its downfall in 1798 when its temporal power was taken and the Pope made prisoner by Napoleons General Berthier.

Napoleons forces defeated the Papal troops, and the General Berthier marched to Rome, entered it unopposed on February 10, 1798, and, proclaiming a Roman Republic, and demanded of the Pope the renunciation of his temporal power and led him away as a prisoner.

 

[Hobie]

But it recovers from what seems to be a 'deadly wound'...

Revelation 13:3-12 King James Version (KJV)
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 nd he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

 

[Stranger]

Lets go over the prophetic time periods to be found in scripture is the time, times and half a time which is mentioned in Daniel and Revelation:

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

If we look back to Daniel we see the word 'time' in this context refers to a period of a year. In the story of King Nebuchadnezzar, he went crazy for seven years and ate grass as an ox as seen in Daniel 4:32:

Daniel 4:32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

So in prophetic reading we see the days equal years, so lets look how many days are in a time, times and half a time, it means time (or 1 year), times (or 2 years) and half a time (or 1/2 year) or a total of 3 1/2 years. Most people who look at it would stop at this point and accept the 3 1/2 years only at face value.

But these are prophetic years so each day is a year and 3 1/2 years would be 3 1/2 times a Jewish year of 360 days (360 x 3.5= 1260) so comes out to 1260 days, and a prophetic day equals a year so using the same methodology as is used for the 70 weeks of Daniel we calculate it to actually represent 1260 literal years. So, Time, Times and half a Time in prophecy is really 1260 years! To confirm this formula we need only to look at the book of Revelation.

No, you violate the method of interpretation.

In (Dan. 9:24) it is 70 weeks of years or 490 years. Seventy Sevens. A day for a year.

And as you point out, a 'time' is also a year. A time for a year.

Through these representations, 3 1/2 years would equal 1260 days. As you also show.

Your error occurs when you try and use the representative 'day' for a year to interpret what 'time' says represents as a year.

Thus your calculation is flawed. It is not 1260 years. It is 1260 days.

Stranger

 

[CharismaticLady]

Antiochus was not a horn or a kingdom. A Horn of a beast is never taken for a single person, but signifies a new kingdom. The "four horns" of the He-goat were "four kingdoms" (Daniel 8:22). Antiochus was merely one of a line of kings and not a separate kingdom. Hence he was merely a part of one of the horns. Antiochus reigned over one of the four horns and "the little horn" was a fifth power which came out of one if the four winds. Therefore, Antiochus was not the "little horn". Rome was "the little horn.”.
Antiochus certainly did not "wax exceeding great". He was not even the strongest of the Seleucid section of Alexander's kingdom. Antiochus was weak and was tributary to the Romans.
Antiochus certainly did not wax "exceeding great towards the south" Daniel 8:9. His march to the south to Egypt was stopped by the mere word of an unarmed Roman officer. When Antiochus said he would think about the Roman's demand the Roman drew a circle in the sand around Antiochus and told him he would do his thinking within that circle. Antiochus turned and retreated. He was frightened out of Egypt by an unarmed representative of Rome. He was later routed by the Jews. To apply this prophecy of a world power a super power which waxed "exceeding great towards the south" to this cruel but weak creature appears to be the height of folly and is advanced merely to avoid or explain away this divine prophecy. His push to the east resulted in his death. He certainly did not wax "exceeding great" in that direction. It is very apparent that the "little horn" of either Daniel 7 and 8 does not apply to Antiochus Epiphanes. The facts do not fit the specifications of Prophecy. Applying the prophecy to Antiochus was a poor pagan's attempt to avoid his God required responsibilities and to excuse his rejection of truth. He tried to discredit the divine predictions of the one whom Christ called "Daniel the Prophet". Daniel was not a mere historian as this truth-rejector would imply. The finger of Daniel’s prophecy points with infallible accuracy to the awful Roman apostasy that climaxed in the Papacy who cast down the truth, wears out the saints of the Most High, and continues through the "time of the end" and will continue to the "end of time". Antiochus Epiphanes was one of the weakest of the kings of Syria. He gave himself the name “Epiphanes" = "The Illustrious". Prideaux, the historian says that this title could not be more alien to his character. The Syrian people called him “Epimanes" - "The Madman". The prophecy points to not only a persecuting power that would “cast down some to the host and of the stars to the ground and stamped upon them?” But he also "magnified himself even to the Prince of the host" (Christ) Daniel 8:10, 11. "He shall stand up against the Prince of princes" Christ. Daniel 8:25. This Rome did but Antiochus died 164 years before Christ. Antiochus just does not meet the specifications of prophecy. If a power meets some of the specifications but not all of them, then it must be rejected.

Here's something else... [The ram] became great. . . . Therefore the he goat waxed very great . . . . a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. (Dan. 8:4-9) Clearly, the little horn must become greater than either Medo-Persia or Alexander's Grecian empire in three directions in a precise order. Antiochus's conquests, pseudo-conquests, and failures never attained to the glory of Cyrus the Great or Alexander. He went east last, not second, and perished there. In stark contrast, Rome excelled all in might, annexing Carthage to its south first, Macedonia, Syria, and Egypt to the east second, and Judea third. Thus Rome fulfilled the prophecy to a "T," even getting the order of conquest right. The position that Daniel 8's little horn had something to do with pagan and/or papal Rome was held by such greats in the past as Martin Luther (1522), Philip Melanchthon (1543), Heinrich Bullinger (1557), George Downham (1603), Sir Isaac Newton (1727), the Berlenburg Bible (1743), Thomas Newton (1754), and John William Fletcher (1800)

Who is the large horn of Daniel 8:8 Therefore the male goat grew very great; but when he became strong, the large horn was broken?

Animals are nations. Horns are kings. And a little horn is a king or ruler as well.

 

[CharismaticLady]

You have to understand that it is prophetic years which is one day equals a year.

So it took God 6 years to create the earth?

The 2300 evenings and mornings are not prophetic "days," they are specified as the same amount of time as the days of creation. You would be right if is was just 2300 days with no specifics. Some translations makes it easier and leave out evenings and mornings and just write days, but that is not literal. Most translations do not take that liberty. It is too bad that some did, because now we have people turning what was meant to be literal, to prophetic "years." And some take the liberty of combining separate prophecies.

KJ21
And he said unto me, “Until two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.”
ASV
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred evenings and mornings; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
AMP
He said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be cleansed and properly restored.”
AMPC
And he said to him and to me, For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed and restored.
BRG
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
CSB
He said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be restored.”
CEB
He said to me, “For two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings. Then the sanctuary will be restored.”
CJB
The first said to me, “Two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings, after which the sanctuary will be restored to its rightful state.”
CEV
The other answered, “It will be two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings before the temple is dedicated and in use again.”
DARBY
And he said unto me, Until two thousand and three hundred evenings [and] mornings: then shall the sanctuary be vindicated.
DRA
And he said to him: Unto evening and morning two thousand three hundred days: and the sanctuary shall be cleansed.
ERV
The other holy one said, “This will last for 2300 days. Then the holy place will be repaired.”
EHV
He said to him, “Until two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings, and then the Holy Place will be consecrated.”
ESV
And he said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state.”
ESVUK
And he said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state.”
EXB
The angel said to me, “This will happen for twenty-three hundred evenings and mornings [C either 2,300 or 1,150 days]. Then the ·holy place [sanctuary] will be ·repaired [restored; made right again].”
GNV
And he answered me, Unto the evening and the morning, two thousand and three hundred: then shall the Sanctuary be cleansed.
GW
He told me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the holy place will be made acceptable to God.”
GNT
I heard the other angel answer, “It will continue for 2,300 evenings and mornings, during which sacrifices will not be offered. Then the Temple will be restored.”
HCSB
He said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be restored.”
ICB
He said to me, “This will happen for 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the holy place will be repaired.”
ISV
“He told me, ‘For 2,300 days. Then the Holy Place will be restored.’”
KJV
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
AKJV
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
LEB
And he said to me, “For two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings, then the sanctuary will be restored.”
TLB
The other replied, “Twenty-three hundred days must first go by.”
MSG
“The other answered, ‘Over the course of 2,300 sacrifices, evening and morning. Then the Sanctuary will be set right again.’
MEV
And he said to me, “For two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings. Then the sanctuary shall be cleansed properly.”
NOG
He told me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the holy place will be made acceptable to God.”
NABRE
He answered him, “For two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary shall be set right.”
NASB
He said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the holy place will be properly restored.”
NCV
The angel said to me, “This will happen for twenty-three hundred evenings and mornings. Then the holy place will be repaired.”
NET
He said to me, “To 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be put right again.”
NIRV
One of the holy angels said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the temple will be made holy again.”
NIV
He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”
NIVUK
He said to me, ‘It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.’

(continued)

 

[CharismaticLady]

(continued)

NKJV
And he said to me, “For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed.”
NLV
He said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the holy place will be put to use again.”
NLT
The other replied, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the Temple will be made right again.”
NRSV
And he answered him, “For two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state.”
NRSVA
And he answered him, ‘For two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state.’
NRSVACE
And he answered him, ‘For two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state.’
NRSVCE
And he answered him, “For two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state.”
OJB
And he said unto me, Unto erev-boker two thousand and three hundred; then shall the Kodesh (Sanctuary) be vindicated.
RSV
And he said to him, “For two thousand and three hundred evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state.”
RSVCE
And he said to him, “For two thousand and three hundred evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state.”
TLV
Then he said to me: ‘For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be vindicated.’
VOICE
Second Heavenly Being (to me): The world will see 2,300 mornings and evenings before all this will pass. After this the trampling will cease, and the holy sanctuary will be set right.
WEB
He said to me, “To two thousand and three hundred evenings and mornings. Then the sanctuary will be cleansed.”
WYC
And he said to him, Till to the eventide and morrowtide, two thousand days and three hundred; and the saintuary shall be cleansed. (And he said to him, Until the evening and the morning, two thousand and three hundred days; and then the sanctuary shall be cleansed.)
YLT
And he saith unto me, Till evening -- morning two thousand and three hundred, then is the holy place declared right.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Hobie: We can see this in the prophecy in Daniel 9 in which seventy literal weeks would not be enough time to accomplish all the things mentioned as having to transpire within the scope of Daniel's "seventy-weeks" vision. For this reason, most Biblical scholars view the seventy weeks of Daniel as symbolic years.

But you are not following the actual rules of interpreting prophecy. Prophetically when no other specifics are given:

a day equals a year
a week equals 7 years

This is true except when other parameters are given like when describing the same amount of time:

42 months
1260 days
time and times and half a time

That makes 1260 days literally 1260 days, and not 1260 years.

That also meets the rule for evening and morning equals one literal day, as in creation week. If it was written as just 2300 days (with no parameters) then, and only then, could you determine it to be 2300 years.

Daniel 12 is end time as in end of the world, and not end of Greece or any other nation. This is talking of the time of the actual Antichrist, and not facsimiles such as Antiochus Epiphanes IV of Daniel 8, nor Nero and Titus of Daniel 9. Daniel 12 lines up with Revelation 12, and because verse 7 shows the times and times and half a time, then we know that verses 11 and 12 are literal days and not prophetic years. We also know that because of it being after the abomination of desolation, it is the last half of the 7 year period.

Understand?

 

[Enoch111]

This is true except when other parameters are given like when describing the same amount of time:

42 months
1260 days
time and times and half a time

That makes 1260 days literally 1260 days, and not 1260 years.

That also meets the rule for evening and morning equals one literal day, as in creation week. If it was written as just 2300 days (with no parameters) then, and only then, could you determine it to be 2300 years.

This is correct. As to 2300 days, in the Hebrew it is in fact evenings and mornings, which confirms that Daniel gave us 2300 literal days (which are a few months short of seven years).

 

[CharismaticLady]

This is correct. As to 2300 days, in the Hebrew it is in fact evenings and mornings, which confirms that Daniel gave us 2300 literal days (which are a few months short of seven years).

Yes, that was the time of the Jewish revolt of 167 BC to 160 BC (Maccabean revolt)