The False Doctrine of a 7-year Tribulation

[Keraz]

That is not true. The idea of a national redemption for Israel is found throughout Scripture. The only way you get around it is to redefine Israel as the Church.

Stranger

If you knew your Bible, you would understand the difference between the House of Judah and the House of Israel and wouldn't confuse the two.
The country in the Middle East that calls itself Israel, is not the Israel of God. The true Israelites are the born again Christians. Galatians 6:14-16

 

[Enoch111]

Yes, that was the time of the Jewish revolt of 167 BC to 160 BC (Maccabean revolt)

Sorry, but that is incorrect. Those 2300 days are in the future.

They are tied in with the 42 months assigned to the Antichrist.
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. (Rev 14:5).

No wonder there is so much confusion when Christians don't know the difference between what is past and what is yet to come.

 

[Brakelite]

it took God 6 years to create the earth?

Not prophetic. The year day principle only applies to project where the time factor is symbolic.

 

[Hobie]

So it took God 6 years to create the earth?

The 2300 evenings and mornings are not prophetic "days," they are specified as the same amount of time as the days of creation. You would be right if is was just 2300 days with no specifics. Some translations makes it easier and leave out evenings and mornings and just write days, but that is not literal. Most translations do not take that liberty. It is too bad that some did, because now we have people turning what was meant to be literal, to prophetic "years." And some take the liberty of combining separate prophecies.

KJ21
And he said unto me, “Until two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.”
ASV
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred evenings and mornings; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
AMP
He said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be cleansed and properly restored.”
AMPC
And he said to him and to me, For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed and restored.
BRG
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
CSB
He said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be restored.”
CEB
He said to me, “For two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings. Then the sanctuary will be restored.”
CJB
The first said to me, “Two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings, after which the sanctuary will be restored to its rightful state.”
CEV
The other answered, “It will be two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings before the temple is dedicated and in use again.”
DARBY
And he said unto me, Until two thousand and three hundred evenings [and] mornings: then shall the sanctuary be vindicated.
DRA
And he said to him: Unto evening and morning two thousand three hundred days: and the sanctuary shall be cleansed.
ERV
The other holy one said, “This will last for 2300 days. Then the holy place will be repaired.”
EHV
He said to him, “Until two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings, and then the Holy Place will be consecrated.”
ESV
And he said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state.”
ESVUK
And he said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state.”
EXB
The angel said to me, “This will happen for twenty-three hundred evenings and mornings [C either 2,300 or 1,150 days]. Then the ·holy place [sanctuary] will be ·repaired [restored; made right again].”
GNV
And he answered me, Unto the evening and the morning, two thousand and three hundred: then shall the Sanctuary be cleansed.
GW
He told me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the holy place will be made acceptable to God.”
GNT
I heard the other angel answer, “It will continue for 2,300 evenings and mornings, during which sacrifices will not be offered. Then the Temple will be restored.”
HCSB
He said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be restored.”
ICB
He said to me, “This will happen for 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the holy place will be repaired.”
ISV
“He told me, ‘For 2,300 days. Then the Holy Place will be restored.’”
KJV
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
AKJV
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
LEB
And he said to me, “For two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings, then the sanctuary will be restored.”
TLB
The other replied, “Twenty-three hundred days must first go by.”
MSG
“The other answered, ‘Over the course of 2,300 sacrifices, evening and morning. Then the Sanctuary will be set right again.’
MEV
And he said to me, “For two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings. Then the sanctuary shall be cleansed properly.”
NOG
He told me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the holy place will be made acceptable to God.”
NABRE
He answered him, “For two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary shall be set right.”
NASB
He said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the holy place will be properly restored.”
NCV
The angel said to me, “This will happen for twenty-three hundred evenings and mornings. Then the holy place will be repaired.”
NET
He said to me, “To 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be put right again.”
NIRV
One of the holy angels said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the temple will be made holy again.”
NIV
He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”
NIVUK
He said to me, ‘It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.’

(continued)

Its only for prophetic time that the day-year principle is use, not the days of creation or days of traveling, or days it took to conquer a city or town. Need to keep that in mind.

 

[Hobie]

Now many Bible scholars and of history have noticed this and you find it being applied, sometimes they may not agree on the dates of when it starts, but the day-year prophetic principle is well accepted by them. Here is a site which is off a bit on the starting date, but they are using the principle...
"Now before we begin, we need to clarify the fact that the Jewish prophetic year was composed of twelve 30 day months. In other words, the ancient evidence indicates that the Jewish prophetic year had 360 days, not 365 days. Since Daniel states 69 weeks of seven years each, and each year has 360 days, the equation is as follows: 69 x 7 x 360 = 173,880 days. In nothing more than a simple mathematical demonstration, the number of days in the period from March 5, 444 B.C. (the twentieth year of Artaxerxes) to March 30, 33 A.D. (the day Jesus entered Jerusalem on the donkey) can be determined at this point.

The time span from 444 B.C. to 33 A.D. is 476 years (remember that 1 B.C. to 1 A.D. is only one year). And if we multiply 476 years x 365.2421879 days per year (corrected for leap years), we get the result of 173,855 days. Now let's add back the difference between March 5 and March 30 (25 days). What is our total? You guessed it, 173,880 days, exactly as Daniel predicted it.

So What Does Fulfilled Prophecy Prove?
The ancient Jews were careful to use Prophecy as a measuring stick. If someone claimed to be a prophet, yet his predictions did not come true, he was abandoned and his writings did not make it into the canon of scripture. Moses was careful to set this high bar for prophets:

"When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that [is] the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, [but] the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him" (Deuteronomy 18:22).

Moses knew that fulfilled prophecy was an evidence! It was an evidence that God was truly at work in the heart of the prophet, giving him insight to something that only God knew about. The exact fulfillment of all the prophecies that we've talked about from the Old Testament is more than enough to demonstrate the accuracy and divine inspiration of the Bible and the truth of Christianity. Remember, only God can "declare the end from the beginning" and forecast to the very day "things that are not yet done" (Isaiah 46:10).

"I declare the end from the beginning, and from long ago what is not yet done, saying: My plan will take place, and I will do all My will" (Isaiah 46:10)."...Bible Prophecy - 13 Popular Fulfilled Prophecies Signs

 

[Hobie]

And this from the Messianic Jewish perspective...
"Who is this Messiah?
But who is this Messiah? One man fulfills all that is required in this passage. Jesus of Nazareth was born into the Jewish world and proclaimed his messiahship 483 years after the decree to rebuild and restore Jerusalem was issued. In the year 30 C. E., Jesus was executed by crucifixion. Daniel indicated that he would be cut off, not for himself, but rather for others. Isaiah 53 also prophesied the death of the Messiah, pointing out that he would die a substitutionary death on behalf of his people Israel. The teaching of the New Covenant is that Jesus died a penal death by taking upon himself the penalty of the Law as a substitute for his people. In keeping with Daniel 9:24, he died for the purpose of making an atonement for sins. Three days after his death, he was resurrected. Finally, the New Covenant proclaims the fact that he will someday return to set up his kingdom and the age of righteousness.

If Daniel was right, then Messiah came and died prior to the year 70 C.E. If Daniel was right, then there are no other options for who the Messiah is, but Jesus of Nazareth. If Daniel was right, this Jesus is destined to return and to set up the messianic kingdom."...The Messianic Time Table According to Daniel the Prophet • Jews for Jesus

 

[Hobie]

But you are not following the actual rules of interpreting prophecy. Prophetically when no other specifics are given:

a day equals a year
a week equals 7 years

This is true except when other parameters are given like when describing the same amount of time:

42 months
1260 days
time and times and half a time

That makes 1260 days literally 1260 days, and not 1260 years.

That also meets the rule for evening and morning equals one literal day, as in creation week. If it was written as just 2300 days (with no parameters) then, and only then, could you determine it to be 2300 years.

Daniel 12 is end time as in end of the world, and not end of Greece or any other nation. This is talking of the time of the actual Antichrist, and not facsimiles such as Antiochus Epiphanes IV of Daniel 8, nor Nero and Titus of Daniel 9. Daniel 12 lines up with Revelation 12, and because verse 7 shows the times and times and half a time, then we know that verses 11 and 12 are literal days and not prophetic years. We also know that because of it being after the abomination of desolation, it is the last half of the 7 year period.

Understand?

Nothing fits if you try to shoehorn 1260 days, but if you understand it is prophetic years then the 1260 years fit like a glove. Here from the Catholic writers themselves...
"The 1260 years of Papal Supremacy

Catholic writers attest to 12 centuries of Papal Supremacy and Sovereignty:

And now that the temporal power of the Roman Pontiffs belongs to the past, that the head of the Church must under heaven depend for its maintenance upon the generosity of his spiritual children throughout the world, that a usurper holds the throne from which the Pope ruled for a thousand years, while its rightful owner is a prisoner in his own city, it will be of interest from many points of view to review what Roman people and Rome were like before 1870 and what they are to-day.

[pg. 194]

Long ages ago, when Rome through the neglect of the Western emperors was left to the mercy of barbarous hordes, Romans turned to one figure for aid and protection and asked him to rule them; and thus in this simple manner, the best title of all to kingly right, commenced the temporal sovereignty of the Popes. And meekly stepping to the throne of Caesar, the Vicar of Christ took up the sceptre to which the emperors and kings of Europe were to bow in reverence through so many ages, from sentiments of respect for the dignity of his office and because he was the only mediator whom they recognized in their almost interminable wars.

Source: Two Romes, by James P. Conry, in The American Catholic Quarterly Review, Volume XXXVI (36), edited by James Andrew Corcoran, Patrick John Ryan, Edmond Francis Prendergast, 1911, pgs. 193-194.

... the right to her Temporal Sovereignty is an integral right of the Church as constituted by her Divine Founder. It has prevailed de facto for more than twelve hundred years, and has been possessed de jure by Divine Natural Law from the beginning of Christianity, ...

Source: The Victories of Rome and the Temporal Monarchy of the Church, 5th edition, By Kenelm Digby Best, London, 1906, pg. xii.

Rome has been a government under the Popes for some twelve hundred years.

Source: Complete Works of the Most Rev. John Hughes, Archbishop of New York, 1866, Volume 2. pg. 778

[pg. 6]

9. ... In books of all sizes, and from the pulpit of every church, we have been taught from our infancy, that the "beast, the man of sin, and the scarlet whore," mentioned in the Revelations, were names which God himself had given to the Pope; and we have all been taught to believe of the Catholic Church, that her worship was "idolatrous," and that her doctrines were "damnable."

10. Now let us put a plain question or two to ourselves, and to these our readers; and we shall quickly be able to form a

[pg. 7]

just estimate of the modesty, sincerity, and consistency of these revilers of the Catholic religion: ―they will not, because they cannot, deny, that this religion was the ONLY CHRISTIAN religion in the world for fifteen hundred years after the death of Christ. They may say, indeed, that for the first three hundred years there was no Pope seated at Rome. But, then, for twelve hundred years there had been; and, during that period, all the nations of Europe, and some part of America, had become Christian, and all acknowledged the Pope as their head in religious matters; and, in short, there was no other Christian Church known in the world, nor had any other ever been thought of. Can we believe, then, that Christ, who died to save sinners, who sent forth his gospel as the means of their salvation, would have suffered a false Christian religion, and no other than a false Christian religion, to be known amongst men all this while? Will these modest assailants of the faith of their and our ancestors assert to our faces, that, for twelve hundred years at least, there were no true Christians in the world? Will they tell us, that Christ, who promised to be with the teachers of his word to the end of the world, wholly left them, and gave up hundreds upon hundreds of millions of people to be led in darkness to their eternal perdition, by one whom his inspired followers had denominated the "man of sin, and the scarlet whore"? Will they, indeed, dare to tell us, that Christ gave up the world wholly to "Antichrist" for twelve hundred years?

Source: History of the Protestant Reformation in England and Ireland, Showing How That Event Has Impoverished and Degraded the Main Body of the People in Those Countries, by William Cobbett, published in 1832 in New York by John Doyle, 12 Liberty-street; and Thomas Doyle, Market-street, Providence R.I., pages 6 and 7......

Paul describes a restrainer who hinders the rise of the antichrist, that this restrainer must be removed before the man of sin can be revealed. Note the following:

[xxviii]

Now the abandonment of Rome [*] was the liberation of the Pontiffs. Whatsoever claims to obedience the Emperors may have made, and whatsoever compliance the Pontiff may have yielded, the whole previous relation, anomalous, and annulled again and again by the vices and outrages of the Emperors, was finally dissolved by a higher power. The providence of God permitted a succession of irruptions, Gothic, Lombard, and Hungarian, to desolate Italy, and to efface from it every remnant of

* Emperor Constantine left Rome in 326 A.D. in search of a suitable new capital, and dedicated Byzantium as the "Nova Roma" on May 11th, 330 A.D., renaming it Constantinople after himself.

[xxix]

the Empire. The Pontiffs found themselves alone; the sole fountains of order, peace, law, and safety. And from the hour of this providential liberation, when, by a Divine intervention, the chains fell off from the hands of the successor of St. Peter, as once before from his own, no sovereign has ever reigned in Rome except the Vicar of Jesus Christ.. The moral import of this Divine action must be adequately appreciated. It cancelled, abolished, and extinguished finally and for ever the right of conquest, possession, occupation, and property claimed by the Emperors over Italy and Rome....


[pg. 16]

I say, then, that it was God's own act which liberated His Vicar upon earth from subjection to temporal power; and that for twelve hundred years the Bishops of Rome have reigned as temporal princes. They have possessed their own. No man has given to them their sovereign rights. They reign there as Christian princes by the providence of God. They are the first example of a Christian monarchy, the first seed of Christian Europe, the first roll of Christian princes. "....The 1260 years of Papal Supremacy.

 

[Enoch111]

Nothing fits if you try to shoehorn 1260 days...

No one has to *shoehorn* anything. The Bible is crystal clear that:

1260 days/30 = 42 months/12 = 3 1/2 years = time (1 year) + times (2 years) + half a time (6 months) also called "the dividing of time".

All these numbers are literal both in Daniel and Revelation. Focusing just on Revelation, here is what we find:

1260 DAYS
And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. (Rev 11:3)
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. (Rev 12:6)

42 MONTHS
But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. (Rev 11:2)
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. (Rev 13:5)

TIME, TIMES, AND HALF A TIME
And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. (Rev 12:14)

All the attempts to change days into years are TOTAL NONSENSE.

 

[Hobie]

No one has to *shoehorn* anything. The Bible is crystal clear that:

1260 days/30 = 42 months/12 = 3 1/2 years = time (1 year) + times (2 years) + half a time (6 months) also called "the dividing of time".

All these numbers are literal both in Daniel and Revelation. Focusing just on Revelation, here is what we find:

1260 DAYS
And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. (Rev 11:3)
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. (Rev 12:6)

42 MONTHS
But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. (Rev 11:2)
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. (Rev 13:5)

TIME, TIMES, AND HALF A TIME
And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. (Rev 12:14)

All the attempts to change days into years are TOTAL NONSENSE.

And yet nothing happened that fits in just days. But you put in the prophetic years, there is no question it fits...

 

[CharismaticLady]

Sorry, but that is incorrect. Those 2300 days are in the future.

They are tied in with the 42 months assigned to the Antichrist.
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. (Rev 14:5).

No wonder there is so much confusion when Christians don't know the difference between what is past and what is yet to come.

Daniel 8 is about Greece and is past. Daniel 9 is the same amount of time but was fulfilled in the next Jewish revolt of 66 AD to 73 AD, and the middle of the week was 70 AD. You are thinking of the NEXT one that IS future still of Revelation 12. In it will be the actual Antichrist which these two former antichrists were foreshadows. Also read on in Revelation to the next chapter and you will see he is allowed another 42 months making it 7 years.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Not prophetic. The year day principle only applies to project where the time factor is symbolic.

Sorry, it is the law of first usage. Evening and morning is a 24 hour period. It is the same as 42 months is not 1260 years.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Its only for prophetic time that the day-year principle is use, not the days of creation or days of traveling, or days it took to conquer a city or town. Need to keep that in mind.

Don't you see that it was during the Grecian rule? You are making the start date in the Persian rule, as it is in Daniel 9. You are mixing prophecies, let alone time frames.

 

[Jay Ross]

"Now before we begin, we need to clarify the fact that the Jewish prophetic year was composed of twelve 30 day months. In other words, the ancient evidence indicates that the Jewish prophetic year had 360 days, not 365 days. Since Daniel states 69 weeks of seven years each, and each year has 360 days, the equation is as follows: 69 x 7 x 360 = 173,880 days. In nothing more than a simple mathematical demonstration, the number of days in the period from March 5, 444 B.C. (the twentieth year of Artaxerxes) to March 30, 33 A.D. (the day Jesus entered Jerusalem on the donkey) can be determined at this point.

Well, that is the manner in which it has been understood by our so called scholars. Christ, on the other hand, painted a very different picture as to the length of the 70 weeks of years as He equated the time period of 490 years in Daniel 9:24 as being solar years and not the so called Jewish Prophetic year of 360 days.

Why do I say that the time period was solar years and not Jewish Prophetic, it was because when Christ was asked how many time should a person forgive his brother by the disciples that He replied that He, would require that they be forgiven for 70 time 7 times or 490 times.

Within the Temple practices, the Israelites were required to bring a yearly sacrifice to the temple as their Sin sacrifice for that year. Now the determination of the start of each year was determined by the readiness of the Bailey in the field to be harvested and the sighting of the first sliver of the New moon for that month. So the jumping through the hoops that has been the practice of Christian Scholars as implemented in their Chronologies of the Old Testament like Ussher has put a stumbling block in our path to understanding of the End Time prophecies and particularly Dan 9:24-27 which sadly has been treated as a single complete prophecy, whereas, it is five prophecies that have been recorded in chronological order of when they actually begin with the fourth prophecy in verse 26b having a time span of some 2,000 years which is in keeping with the prophecy of the visitation of the sins of the fathers on their children and their children's children as recorded in Ex 20:4-6.

Now, the cleansing of the Temple after the Maccabee's Revolt was a ritual cleansing and a returning of the practices to what they were before the Temple was "defiled" by the slaughtering of a Pig to Zeus in the Temple.

The link The Revolt of the Maccabees: The true story behind Hanukkah claims to be the true account of the Revolt of the Maccabees and it tells the story that primarily it was a fight between different faction of the Priesthood and the Hellenizering of the Israelites by the Priests appointed to power through bribery by the respective Emperors of the Seleucid Empire. The Greek Hellenization of the Jewish traditions etc. began around 100 years prior to the Maccabees Revolt with the adoption of Jews secretly worshiping foreign idols, which was against the second Commandment. quite often This worshiping of idols was the beginning of the trampling of God's Sanctuary and earthly hosts by the heathen Gentiles.

In Hosea 6:1-3 the understanding of the "day/s" in this prophecy is not of a "year" or "years" duration but of an "age" and "ages", i.e two ages, duration.

We must be clear in our understanding of whose time frame the prophecies were written. Were the Prophecies time frames, within man's domain or God's domain as that determines the time periods being prophesied in the respective prophecies.

The problem that we ll face is that if our understanding is flawed, then all our understanding prophecy wise becomes flawed and we go off on tangents which bares no resemblance to prophecies we are trying to explain so that as we go forward in time we have to modify the latter prophecies to support our previous understandings, we put ourselves on a slippery slope into the pit.

Shalom

 

[CharismaticLady]

Nothing fits if you try to shoehorn 1260 days, but if you understand it is prophetic years then the 1260 years fit like a glove. Here from the Catholic writers themselves...
"The 1260 years of Papal Supremacy

Catholic writers attest to 12 centuries of Papal Supremacy and Sovereignty:

And now that the temporal power of the Roman Pontiffs belongs to the past, that the head of the Church must under heaven depend for its maintenance upon the generosity of his spiritual children throughout the world, that a usurper holds the throne from which the Pope ruled for a thousand years, while its rightful owner is a prisoner in his own city, it will be of interest from many points of view to review what Roman people and Rome were like before 1870 and what they are to-day.

[pg. 194]

Long ages ago, when Rome through the neglect of the Western emperors was left to the mercy of barbarous hordes, Romans turned to one figure for aid and protection and asked him to rule them; and thus in this simple manner, the best title of all to kingly right, commenced the temporal sovereignty of the Popes. And meekly stepping to the throne of Caesar, the Vicar of Christ took up the sceptre to which the emperors and kings of Europe were to bow in reverence through so many ages, from sentiments of respect for the dignity of his office and because he was the only mediator whom they recognized in their almost interminable wars.

Source: Two Romes, by James P. Conry, in The American Catholic Quarterly Review, Volume XXXVI (36), edited by James Andrew Corcoran, Patrick John Ryan, Edmond Francis Prendergast, 1911, pgs. 193-194.

... the right to her Temporal Sovereignty is an integral right of the Church as constituted by her Divine Founder. It has prevailed de facto for more than twelve hundred years, and has been possessed de jure by Divine Natural Law from the beginning of Christianity, ...

Source: The Victories of Rome and the Temporal Monarchy of the Church, 5th edition, By Kenelm Digby Best, London, 1906, pg. xii.

Rome has been a government under the Popes for some twelve hundred years.

Source: Complete Works of the Most Rev. John Hughes, Archbishop of New York, 1866, Volume 2. pg. 778

[pg. 6]

9. ... In books of all sizes, and from the pulpit of every church, we have been taught from our infancy, that the "beast, the man of sin, and the scarlet whore," mentioned in the Revelations, were names which God himself had given to the Pope; and we have all been taught to believe of the Catholic Church, that her worship was "idolatrous," and that her doctrines were "damnable."

10. Now let us put a plain question or two to ourselves, and to these our readers; and we shall quickly be able to form a

[pg. 7]

just estimate of the modesty, sincerity, and consistency of these revilers of the Catholic religion: ―they will not, because they cannot, deny, that this religion was the ONLY CHRISTIAN religion in the world for fifteen hundred years after the death of Christ. They may say, indeed, that for the first three hundred years there was no Pope seated at Rome. But, then, for twelve hundred years there had been; and, during that period, all the nations of Europe, and some part of America, had become Christian, and all acknowledged the Pope as their head in religious matters; and, in short, there was no other Christian Church known in the world, nor had any other ever been thought of. Can we believe, then, that Christ, who died to save sinners, who sent forth his gospel as the means of their salvation, would have suffered a false Christian religion, and no other than a false Christian religion, to be known amongst men all this while? Will these modest assailants of the faith of their and our ancestors assert to our faces, that, for twelve hundred years at least, there were no true Christians in the world? Will they tell us, that Christ, who promised to be with the teachers of his word to the end of the world, wholly left them, and gave up hundreds upon hundreds of millions of people to be led in darkness to their eternal perdition, by one whom his inspired followers had denominated the "man of sin, and the scarlet whore"? Will they, indeed, dare to tell us, that Christ gave up the world wholly to "Antichrist" for twelve hundred years?

Source: History of the Protestant Reformation in England and Ireland, Showing How That Event Has Impoverished and Degraded the Main Body of the People in Those Countries, by William Cobbett, published in 1832 in New York by John Doyle, 12 Liberty-street; and Thomas Doyle, Market-street, Providence R.I., pages 6 and 7......

Paul describes a restrainer who hinders the rise of the antichrist, that this restrainer must be removed before the man of sin can be revealed. Note the following:

[xxviii]

Now the abandonment of Rome [*] was the liberation of the Pontiffs. Whatsoever claims to obedience the Emperors may have made, and whatsoever compliance the Pontiff may have yielded, the whole previous relation, anomalous, and annulled again and again by the vices and outrages of the Emperors, was finally dissolved by a higher power. The providence of God permitted a succession of irruptions, Gothic, Lombard, and Hungarian, to desolate Italy, and to efface from it every remnant of

* Emperor Constantine left Rome in 326 A.D. in search of a suitable new capital, and dedicated Byzantium as the "Nova Roma" on May 11th, 330 A.D., renaming it Constantinople after himself.

[xxix]

the Empire. The Pontiffs found themselves alone; the sole fountains of order, peace, law, and safety. And from the hour of this providential liberation, when, by a Divine intervention, the chains fell off from the hands of the successor of St. Peter, as once before from his own, no sovereign has ever reigned in Rome except the Vicar of Jesus Christ.. The moral import of this Divine action must be adequately appreciated. It cancelled, abolished, and extinguished finally and for ever the right of conquest, possession, occupation, and property claimed by the Emperors over Italy and Rome....


[pg. 16]

I say, then, that it was God's own act which liberated His Vicar upon earth from subjection to temporal power; and that for twelve hundred years the Bishops of Rome have reigned as temporal princes. They have possessed their own. No man has given to them their sovereign rights. They reign there as Christian princes by the providence of God. They are the first example of a Christian monarchy, the first seed of Christian Europe, the first roll of Christian princes. "....The 1260 years of Papal Supremacy.

If 1260 days is 1260 years, how long is 42 months? And how long is times, and time, and half a time?

 

[CharismaticLady]

All the attempts to change days into years are TOTAL NONSENSE.

In this case, yes. But days can be years, just as weeks can be 7 years. We just need to be educated enough to know the difference. That just takes looking for if there are parameters and knowing the rules of time within a prophecy. When people don't, they are the ones using a shoehorn. LOL

 

[Stranger]

If you knew your Bible, you would understand the difference between the House of Judah and the House of Israel and wouldn't confuse the two.
The country in the Middle East that calls itself Israel, is not the Israel of God. The true Israelites are the born again Christians. Galatians 6:14-16

As I said, the only way you get around any redemption for national Israel, is redefining Israel as the Church.

Stranger

 

[CharismaticLady]

As I said, the only way you get around any redemption for national Israel, is redefining Israel as the Church.

Stranger

Right now the Church are saved and made up of Jews and Gentiles. So "redemption" for national Israel is not redefining Israel, but redeeming national Israel into the Church. That begins to happen in earnest when the fullness of the Gentiles comes into the Church, and then no more Gentiles will be saved. The focus goes back to national Israel when their blindness will be removed and all Israel will be saved during the last 7 years of history before the Millennium.

Romans 11

 

[Hobie]

If 1260 days is 1260 years, how long is 42 months? And how long is times, and time, and half a time?

They all mean 1260 years, we can see 42 months times 30-day month =1260.
A "time, times and half a time" (i.e. 1+2+0.5=3.5), is 1260 when you multiply 360 day Jewish year by 3.5.
The "and in the midst of the week" is half one set of seven which is 3.5, and you multiply 360 day of the Jewish year, you get 1260 (i.e. 3.5 * 360 = 1260)
Divide 1,260 days by 42 months and you will get a 30-day month, as 12 months of 30 days.
They are just different ways of saying 1260, in this case prophetic years.

These time periods occur eight times in scripture:
Daniel 7:25, "time, times and a half".
Daniel 9:27, "and in the midst of the week" or half one set of seven which is 3.5.
Daniel 12:7, "time, times and a half".
Revelation 11:2, "42 months".
Revelation 11:3, "1260 days".
Revelation 12:6, "1260 days".
Revelation 12:14, "time, times and a half".
Revelation 13:5, "42 months".

 

[Hobie]

Here is a list of the Bible scholars from even ancient times who saw this..
"The day/year principle is an old principle already recognized by the Jews, even before the time of Christ.
However it was Abbot Joachim, of Floris, who in 1190, applied the day/year principle to the 1260 days.
His “disciple”, the scientist, physician, Villanova, agreed with Joachim and applied the year-day principle to the 2300 days as well. (Froom 1:751-752)

Francois du Jon (c.1545-1602), Huguenot leader, lawyer, theologian, preacher, gives his reason for the year-day principle:

"Daies is commonly taken as yeares, that God in this sort might shew the time to be short, and that the space of time is definitely set downe by Him in His counsaile. The daies must be reckoned for so many yeares, after the example of the Prophets Ezechiel and Daniel." (Francois du Ion, The Apocalyps, 1596 p. 124, cited by Froom 2:624.)
Georg Nigrinus (1530-1602), Evangelical theologian and teacher, and prolific exegete, chiefly on prophecy. In an argument dealing with the Jesuit arguments over the three and a half year (1260 days) Nigrinus cited Tertullians recognition of the fact that pagan Rome in his day was holding back the coming of Antichrist, Nigrinus discusses Antichrist’s allotted time period, and cites the verdict of the Bible:

"This Jesuit further contends that the papacy cannot be antichrist because the papacy has lasted for centuries, but that the antichrist is supposed to reign only 3 ½ years….But no one doubts today that Daniel spoke of year-days, not literal days….The prophetic time-periods of forty-two months, 1260 days, 1,2,½ times are prophetic, and according to Ezekiel 4, a day must be taken for a year. (Nigrinus, "Antichrists Grundtliche Offenbarung" fils 28v,29r cited in Froom 2:328)


John Napier (1550-1617), distinguished Scottish mathematician, celebrated inventor of logarithms, introducer of the present use of the decimal point, inventor of a mechanical device for the performance of multiplication, division, and extraction of square and cube roots, says this about the year-day principle: "In propheticall dates of daies, weekes, monethes, and yeares, everie common propheticall day is taken for a yeare." (Froom 2:457.)
Puritan John Cotton (1584-1652) of Massachusetts was the first Puritan expositor of the New World. Froom, speaking about Cotton, says, "Prophetic interpretation thus starts in America with the clear recognition of the year-day principle. This should ever be remembered." (Froom 3:38.)

Aaron Burr (1716-1757) Presbyterian Minister in Connecticut, wrote:

These several Numbers (1260 days, forty-two months, or three and a half times) in prophetic Stile, taking a Day for a Year, make the same period 1260 Years. So long the persecuting power of the Beast will continue; and while it does, the church will be in a wilderness state, and the faithful Ministers of Christ will prophesy in sackcloth. (Aaron Burr, The Watchman's Answer to the Question, What of the Night p.21, cited in Froom 3:199)


The Protestant Reformers were well established on the day/year principle.
However, the counter-reformation set out to destroy it. Most prominent in this was Robert Bellarmine, Jesuit, cardinal and theologian who, as an outstanding controversialist opposing the Protestant doctrines of the Reformation, was regarded by the Roman Catholic Church as one of its most powerful defenders. He entered the Society of Jesus in 1560....He was a lecturer at the new Jesuit College in Rome. Bellarmine's assault on the Protestant interpretations of prophecy was centered upon the year-day principle which stood at the base of the historic interpretation of prophecy and had risen to general notice and wide acceptance among both Catholics and Protestants. He went out of his way to do this. Many of the arguments we now hear against the day/year principle have their roots in his arguments"....THE PROPHETIC YEAR-DAY PRINCIPLE

 

[Hobie]

Don't you see that it was during the Grecian rule? You are making the start date in the Persian rule, as it is in Daniel 9. You are mixing prophecies, let alone time frames.

Here is the starting point which is under the decree of Artaxerxes...
"The Starting Point
Our conclusion thus far is that the seven and sixty-two weeks in Daniel 9:25 belong together as a compound making up sixty-nine weeks or 483 historical years until the coming of the Messiah. If the starting point for this period can be found, the date for His coming 483 years later can be fixed. So we turn next to that important starting point.
Daniel 9:25 states that the starting point was to be a going forth of a "word" (Hebrew abar) to restore Jerusalem. Before looking for specific decrees and the actual rebuilding, we should ask a few questions about the term "word."
A. The decree. The reason why the term comes up is because an effort has been made by some historical-critical scholars to equate this "word" in Daniel 9:25 with the "word of the Lord to Jeremiah" to which Daniel referred in verse 2 of this chapter.[4] Daniel was studying the scroll of Jeremiah about the prophecy of the desolation of Jerusalem for seventy years. Jerusalem was to be restored at the end of that period of time. Because the message that came to Jeremiah was termed a "word" and the same Hebrew term was used in Daniel 9:25, should they be equated? Doing so would place the commencement of the 70 weeks of Daniel back in the time of Jeremiah, about 593 B.C.
This type of interpretation overlooks the fact that the term for "word" is used again twice in Daniel 9:23. If one is to look for linguistic connections, here in verse 23 is a far more reasonable one to use than the reference in verse 2 to the time of Jeremiah.
But even here there is a difference between the "word" of Gabriel's introduction and the "word" in the prophecy itself. In the first part of verse 23, Gabriel told Daniel that a word had gone forth (yasa'), obviously from God who sent the message to Daniel. The fact that the perfect form of the verb is used indicates that the word had already gone forth, and having gone forth it had reached Gabriel who was now going to give it to Daniel. The reference is to a past action or communication which Daniel is now to understand.
But the word which Daniel is to understand is not the decree for the rebuilding of Jerusalem. It is the entire prophecy, which follows which constitutes that "word." Thus the "word" about the reconstruction of Jerusalem was contained in the entire overall prophetic word or message that Gabriel brought to Daniel. That word is a description of future events. And one of those future events is the going forth of the "word" or decree to rebuild Jerusalem. Thus the "word" of verse 25 is neither the word of the Lord to Jeremiah in verse 2 nor the word of the Lord through Gabriel to Daniel in verse 23. It is something to be fulfilled in the future. For corroboration we note that the term for "going forth" (Hebrew mosa') that is used in verse 25 is neither the term that is used for the word in verse 2 (Hebrew hayah) nor the verb used in verse 23 (Hebrew yasa'). A further contrast between verse 2 and verse 25 is that the former is specific, "the word of the Lord," in a construct chain with God's name in the genitive relationship, whereas in verse 25 it is just "a word" with neither the divine name nor an article used with it.
B. The king of the decree. The next point that should be noted here is just what it was that the prophecy foretold was to be rebuilt. The verse in question uses the specific name of the city, Jerusalem. There can be no question, therefore, that we must look to the circumstances under which that city was rebuilt. The specific mentioning of the name "Jerusalem" helps avoid confusion with the rebuilding of the temple within Jerusalem. A city is not a temple and a temple is not a city, though a city may contain a temple or be located near one. This distinction is important because the decree of Cyrus in Ezra 1:2-4 specifically mentions authorization for the rebuilding of the temple but does not mention the city. In response to that decree, and a supplementary decree by Darius I, the temple was rebuilt (Ezra 6:14-16); but even after its reconstruction the city still lay in ruins, and this was the condition in which Nehemiah found it in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes I, some 70 years later. The temple was completed in the sixth year of Darius I, 516 B.C., but the city was still unreconstructed in the time of Artaxerxes in the middle of the next century.
We must now attempt to discover the decree that had the effect of leading to the rebuilding of the city. It was not the decree of Cyrus in Ezra 1; nor was it the decree of Darius in Ezra 6, which was in actuality an authorization to carry out the stipulations of the original decree of Cyrus. Both of these decrees dealt with the temple and both of them were brought to their final consummation when the temple was finished. We must look beyond the rebuilding of the temple for the next major building project in Jerusalem. There actually were two decrees, or a decree and an authorization, that were involved in this later event, much like the previous two decrees focused on the temple. This new pair of official rulings is found in Ezra 7 and Nehemiah 2. The circumstances and contents of these decrees require close examination in our quest for the starting point of Daniel's time prophecy.
C. The nature of the decree. The decree given to Ezra is recorded in Ezra 7:12-26 as an official decree of Artaxerxes. It is quoted in the text as a copy of the decree in the original Aramaic language. Because the decree of Darius in Ezra 6 actually contains a reiteration of the antecedent decree of Cyrus, the decree of Artaxerxes is longer than that of Darius. The decrees get longer as one goes through the book. The decree of Cyrus in chapter 1 is the shortest, the decree of Darius in chapter 6 is of medium length, and the decree of Artaxerxes in chapter 7 is the longest and should, therefore, be accorded some measure of importance.
Contributing to that importance is the wide-ranging authority it accorded to Ezra in this decree. By this decree he was not only given privileges to pay for and offer sacrifices in the temple in Jerusalem, but he was also given power to appoint magistrates and judges in the province of Beyond the River. The province of Beyond the River included more than Judea. It included all of Syria that was located west and south of the Upper Euphrates River. Thus by this decree Ezra was given authority not over the Jews only, but also over the persons and territory outside of Judea (Ezra 7:25). He was given permission to draw upon the treasury of that province up to the amount of 100 talents of silver (see Ezra 7:21, 22).
Included among Ezra's responsibilities under this decree of Artaxerxes was the authorization to teach the law of his God to Jews and non-Jews alike in this same extended territory. For anyone who would not obey his teachings in these matters he was authorized to execute punishment up to the death penalty (see Ezra 7:25, 26). His authority over non-Jews is probably the most remarkable feature of the decree. The extent and importance of Ezra's position should be noted carefully in order to understand the nature of his action that followed upon his arrival at Jerusalem.
A second return of Jews with him (Ezra 8) took place under the same decree. This was only the second official large-scale return of Jews since the Persian conquest of Babylon, the first being under Cyrus (see Ezra 1, 2). While a trickle of Jews may have returned between these two events, the full and official nature of this authorized return should be noted (see Ezra 7:13). In the same way that an officially decreed return initiated the reconstruction of the temple, this second officially decreed return served as the stimulus to commence the construction of Jerusalem."...When Did the Seventy Weeks of Daniel 9:24 Begin? | Biblical Research Institute