The False Idea of Replacement Theology

[Spiritual Israelite]

Paul even goes on to write though they had been cut off through unbelief, they could be grafted in again IF they did not remain in unbelief!

Yes, exactly. And dispensationalists miss that. They think Paul was saying that the very ones who were cut off because of unbelief were cut off forever. Not so! If they would read Romans 11:11-14, Paul talked about how he hoped to lead some of the ones who were hardened and cut off to salvation. How can anyone think he was talking about them being cut off forever when he was hoping to lead some of them to salvation? Some people just ignore the context of Romans 11.

Since when they believe they are grafted back into the same good olive tree (kingdom of God) with Gentiles of faith, together Jews of faith with Gentiles of faith are "all Israel that shall be saved." Not an ethnic people, but ALL people of God by grace through FAITH.

I agree. Well said.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, you are using a translation that fits your bias. The Greek uses the conjunction "and". Show me a Greek translation that leaves out the conjunction.

LOL. I already did. This proves yet again that you don't read everything in my posts. I posted this, which is from the NIV:

Galatians 6:14 May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation. 16 Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule—to the Israel of God.

How did you miss this? Do you see the word "and" in there in verse 16?

I could also point out you are forming a doctrine from one verse.

No, I believe Romans 9:6-8 refers to the Israel of God as well. And Ephesians 2:11-13 probably does as well unless you think Paul was talking about the blood of Christ bringing the Gentiles near to the nation of Israel, which doesn't make any sense.

Even Youngs Literal Translation has the conjunction.

"and as many as by this rule do walk -- peace upon them, and kindness, and on the Israel of God!"

As I showed by using the example in Revelation 19, it doesn't make a difference either way.

As for Revelation 19, I would interpret it just how it is written. Of course there are different beings around the throne. You would not say all the angels are now become humans would you? I also don't go around forming doctrines.

LOL. So, you think it is referring to one group of God's servants and another group that fear Him even though all of His servants fear Him? LOL. That's nonsense. The verse was just describing God's people in two different ways. All of His people are His servants and all of His people fear Him. I think if I told you 1 + 1 = 2 you would still disagree.

Are you saying only the Jews are Israel specifically, or see the term Israel used loosely about the Jews? God cast off Israel in 720 BC.

When referring to physical Israel, I'm referring specifically to those who physically descended from the nation of Israel.

Are you saying spiritual Israel started then with only those redeemed and a small remnant has remained up until now called the church?

I believe spiritual Israel is simply a reference to God's people just like the church. It's just another term to refer to God's people as a whole. So, it has been around from the beginning.

 

[Timtofly]

He indicated that instead the criteria for being part of the Israel of which not all who are physically descended from Israel are part, was to be called "in Isaac" and to be one of the children of God and children of the promise.

As opposed to Ishmael, because Ishmael was born with a "lack of faith" intention.

You are backtracking to Abraham. That would include Ishmael and Esau. Ishmael, had a 12 tribe nation as well. The Edomites were the offspring of Esau. But God gave the name to Jacob and his offspring, until they were cut off individually.

Israel was the spiritual name given to all those in Jacob who were not cut off and placed in sheol.

Galatians 6:14 May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation. 16 Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule—to the Israel of God.

How did you miss this? Do you see the word "and" in there in verse 16?

Greek, not English.

I believe spiritual Israel is simply a reference to God's people just like the church. It's just another term to refer to God's people as a whole. So, it has been around from the beginning.

Except it was a term given to Jacob.

 

[Davy]

As opposed to Ishmael, because Ishmael was born with a "lack of faith" intention.

You are backtracking to Abraham. That would include Ishmael and Esau. Ishmael, had a 12 tribe nation as well. The Edomites were the offspring of Esau. But God gave the name to Jacob and his offspring, until they were cut off individually.

Israel was the spiritual name given to all those in Jacob who were not cut off and placed in sheol.

Oh really, come on!

The title of 'Jew' was derived from the tribe of Judah, and it was never used by the northern ten tribes of Israel (i.e., majority of Israelites). The Jewish historian Josephus (100 A.D.) said the title of 'Jew' was used by those who returned to Jerusalem from the 70 years Babylon captivity. You probably don't even know who all returned from that captivity (and it is written just who).

JEWS = tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, (and some small remnants of the ten northern tribes that migrated south when they refused Jeroboam's gold calf idol worship), and the strangers who lived in the southern lands of Judea-Jerusalem.

ISRAEL = the ten tribes that lived in the northern lands which God gave to Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim, and made him king over "Israel". That was when God split the kingdom from the hand of Solomon's son Rehoboam (1 Kings 11). These were the tribes - Ephraim, Manasseh, Dan, Gad, Reuben, Naphtali, Zebulun, Asher, Issachar, and Simeon.

Those ten tribes of Israel were scattered among the Gentiles first by God, and they lost their heritage as part of old Israel. But God knows where they are today, and who they are, and has promised to gather them. They are among Christ's Church.

So when the ten tribes were gone, the JEWS began claiming they only represented Israel, as it still is to this day.

Thus the reality is that the ten tribes of Israel never were... known as JEWS. And that even though the Jews are still Israelites too, because they also descended from the seed of Jacob.

This is why Darby's dispensationalist theories about restored nation of Israel for Christ's future Millennium reign is just ignorant. That because probably the majority of the early Christian Church in the western nations were originally founded by Israelites of the ten lost tribes! And today still probably make up a majority.

Thus it is IMPOSSIBLE to be BOTH gathered to the holy land as part of Israel after Christ's return, and also be gathered to Heaven to live with Jesus after His return. Can't be in both places at the same time. That's silly.

 

[Keraz]

Thus it is IMPOSSIBLE to be BOTH gathered to the holy land as part of Israel after Christ's return, and also be gathered to Heaven to live with Jesus after His return. Can't be in both places at the same time. That's silly.

It is worse than silly, but millions of Christians have fallen for the lie of the Church being raptured to heaven, so therefore they must have the Jews on earth going thru the Great Tribulation and eventually converting to Christianity.
A great idea, but quite without Biblical support.

The thing is, of course; that God wanted the ten Northern tribes, the House of Israel to be scattered around the world, without their identity being general knowledge. He sent Jesus to save us, Matthew 15:24, and He was successful.
The fate of the apostate, atheistic and Jesus rejecting House of Judah, is well prophesied. Only a remnant will survive. Romans 9:27

 

[GEN2REV]

So, is Christ-rejecting Israel God's chosen people?

I think this is a major foundational issue with this type of debate.

Most Christians are confused about who/what Israel actually is, according to God, and who/what it is not.

We can be sure that the current physical state of Israel is never referenced in Bible Prophecy.

The physical location is, but not the current residents of Palestine, nor the political state itself.

 

[Davy]

I think this is a major foundational issue with this type of debate.

Most Christians are confused about who/what Israel actually is, according to God, and who/what it is not.

We can be sure that the current physical state of Israel is never referenced in Bible Prophecy.

The physical location is, but not the current residents of Palestine, nor the political state itself.

That's just a statement that reveals Biblical illiteracy. God reveals the matter of where He would scatter the ten tribes, and how they would wind up among Gentiles with BOTH being called 'the children of the living God'. Apostle Paul pointed to it in Romans 9. But you'd have to find out where in The Old Testament Paul was pointing to with that. Just because you show you don't know about it doesn't mean it is not written. So I'd be weary of making wild generalization statements like you did in this post.

 

[PinSeeker]

I think this is a major foundational issue with this type of debate. Most Christians are confused about who/what Israel actually is, according to God, and who/what it is not.

Absolutely true.

We can be sure that the current physical state of Israel is never referenced in Bible Prophecy. The physical location is, but not the current residents of Palestine, nor the political state itself.

Hmmm... God's Israel was never physical... unless we want to say that His Israel is made up of, well, physical people (as if there is or are any other kind/quality of people...). God's Israel was never a parcel of land, large or small. There was a land given to Israel ~ the Promised Land, of course, the lesser fulfillment of God's covenant with Abraham and his progeny through Isaac, the child of the promise. All of this is a foreshadowing of and thus pointing to the greater fulfillment of this covenant, the land that will be ultimately given to greater Israel, all those in Christ ~ the whole earth. As Jesus said, very clearly, the meek shall inherit the earth.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Keraz]

Most Christians are confused about who/what Israel actually is, according to God

The true Israelites are the Overcomers for God, as Jacob was. They are in each of the 7 Churchs of Revelation.
Who they are not; according to God, - is the current citizens of the Jewish State of Israel.

Who is the real House of Israel?
A study of the first two chapters of Hosea shows us that Israel was to be cast off and divorced from God. They were to be scattered (“Jezreel”); they were to have no mercy (“Lo-ruhamah”); and they were to be no longer God’s people (“Lo-ammi”). But at the same time, God promised that they would be regathered under one Head (Jesus Christ) and come out of captivity. A decreed period; Ezekiel 4:4-6.

In fact, God told them He would “betroth thee unto Me in righteousness” (Hosea 2:19). The prophecy culminates with a Hebrew play on words. The name “Jezreel” means “God scatters,” but it also means “God sows.” (One must scatter the seed in order to sow it in the field.) Thus, at first the name prophesies that Israel was to be scattered; but ultimately it shows God’s Purpose—to sow Israel in the earth in order to multiply her as the sand of the sea, so as God remains faithful to His promise to Abraham.

Hosea 2:23 And I will sow her unto Me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not My people, Thou art My people; and they shall say, Thou art My God.

In other words, even though God did indeed cast off His people Israel, scattering them in the nations by the hand of the Assyrians, God’s ultimate Purpose was to sow them in the earth, so that they would multiply and fulfill the promise to Abraham. Furthermore, Hosea prophesied that; in the very place (of their captivity) where it is said that they are not God’s people (Israel), they would be Christians known as; “the Sons of the living God." Hosea 1:10, Romans 9:24-26

The problem is that most Christians try to make the Jews fulfill these prophesies, when the House of Judah, is fact, fulfilling an entirely different set of prophecies. God in His great mercy has allowed them nearly 2000 years to change their hearts to Him and to accept Jesus as Messiah.

If people realized that the Jews are to fulfill the prophecies of the House of Judah, instead of those dealing with the lost House of Israel, they would not have made this mistake. The Jews were certainly “cast off” in 586 BC and again in 70-135 A.D., even as Israel was cast off during 745-712 B.C.—but the difference is that the prophets uniformly prophesy good things for lost Israel even during the time of their captivity; while severe judgments were pronounced upon Jerusalem and the Jewish people.

Note that Ezekiel 21:14 tells of 3 Judgements. The next one, to come; will be by the Hand of the Lord Himself. Ezekiel 21:1-7



In Jeremiah 18:1-10, God says that the House of Israel was marred in the Potter’s hand, so God was going to beat down the wet clay and remake it into a vessel fit for His use. Then beginning in verse 11, God begins to prophesy about Jerusalem and Judah. First comes an indictment for their sins, and then in Jeremiah 19:1-15 we see that Jeremiah was to take an old earthen vessel (as opposed to wet clay that was pliable), he was to go to the city dump and smash the earthen vessel there, saying: Even so will I break this people and this city, as one breaks a potter’s vessel, that cannot be made whole again, and they shall bury them in Tophet, till there be no place to bury. Thus will I do unto this place, says the Lord, and to the inhabitants thereof, and even make this city as Tophet.



God’s choice of an allegory to suit each House is amazing!
An old clay vessel, once broken, cannot be remade into another vessel. Only wet, pliable clay can be used to remake a vessel. The House of Israel is like the pliable clay; but the House of Judah will be smashed and never again be built into a vessel of honour.

At the end of the first Temple era, God departed from it and Ezekiel saw the glory depart. Ezekiel 10:4-19 It has never returned to the Temple. Even when Zerubbabel rebuilt the Temple in 515 B.C., the glory did not return to it when they dedicated it to God. The work was good and was allowed by God, but the site itself was cursed.

This is consistent with the New Testament prophecies regarding the cursed fig tree, Matt. 21:21 the parable of the vineyard, Matt. 21:43-44 and the parable of the citizens who hated Him and would not allow Him to reign over them. Luke 19:27

The point is, these peoples must still be around to fulfill these distinct prophecies for Israel and for the cursed fig tree. The lost House of Israel must exist to be remade into another vessel and Judah must exist to be virtually wiped out. Isaiah 22:14

The problem comes when people think that the smashed vessel is going to be rebuilt into a vessel fit for God’s use, and when those same people wrongly think that the original House of Israel is lost forever and the Jews are the only Israel.

Plainly, the Christian peoples are the House of Israel, the Overcomers for God, as Jacob was. Jesus came to save the House of Israel, Matthew 15:24, who must be the Christian peoples; or Jesus failed in His mission.

The Jews will never change and Bible prophecy says they will be Judged and punished and only a remnant will survive. Romans 9:27, Isaiah 6:11-13, Isaiah 22:14, Zephaniah 1:1-18, +

 

[Timtofly]

Oh really, come on!

The title of 'Jew' was derived from the tribe of Judah, and it was never used by the northern ten tribes of Israel (i.e., majority of Israelites). The Jewish historian Josephus (100 A.D.) said the title of 'Jew' was used by those who returned to Jerusalem from the 70 years Babylon captivity. You probably don't even know who all returned from that captivity (and it is written just who).

JEWS = tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, (and some small remnants of the ten northern tribes that migrated south when they refused Jeroboam's gold calf idol worship), and the strangers who lived in the southern lands of Judea-Jerusalem.

ISRAEL = the ten tribes that lived in the northern lands which God gave to Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim, and made him king over "Israel". That was when God split the kingdom from the hand of Solomon's son Rehoboam (1 Kings 11). These were the tribes - Ephraim, Manasseh, Dan, Gad, Reuben, Naphtali, Zebulun, Asher, Issachar, and Simeon.

Those ten tribes of Israel were scattered among the Gentiles first by God, and they lost their heritage as part of old Israel. But God knows where they are today, and who they are, and has promised to gather them. They are among Christ's Church.

So when the ten tribes were gone, the JEWS began claiming they only represented Israel, as it still is to this day.

Thus the reality is that the ten tribes of Israel never were... known as JEWS. And that even though the Jews are still Israelites too, because they also descended from the seed of Jacob.

This is why Darby's dispensationalist theories about restored nation of Israel for Christ's future Millennium reign is just ignorant. That because probably the majority of the early Christian Church in the western nations were originally founded by Israelites of the ten lost tribes! And today still probably make up a majority.

Thus it is IMPOSSIBLE to be BOTH gathered to the holy land as part of Israel after Christ's return, and also be gathered to Heaven to live with Jesus after His return. Can't be in both places at the same time. That's silly.

I never used the word Jew once in the post you quoted. It does not matter what first century Jews called themselves. They were all cut off from Israel, except those who followed Jesus and accepted the gift of Salvation. That does not make them Israel. That makes them redeemed. They were already Israel, until cut off. So now the redeemed ones, were redeemed Israelites.

 

[GEN2REV]

being called 'the children of the living God'.

So your round-about objection, that you didn't actually state in the post, is that the people who reside in current Palestine are God's children.

Ok, let's see.

1. Jesus tells the pharisees and scribes, who now make up the jewish population of Israel today, that they are not of God in John 8:42-47.

2. Jesus tells those same people that if they don't believe that He is God that they will die in their sins in John 8:24. -Those people do not believe in Christ at all.

3. Paul declares in Galatians 3:16 that it is Christ who is the seed of Abraham and that one must have faith in Christ in order to be a child of God in Galatians 3:26. -Those people do not have faith in Christ.

4. Paul says in verse 29 that in order to be an heir of God's promise, Abraham's seed, one must belong to Christ.
-None of those people belong to Christ in the least.

Would you like to revise your post?

 

[Davy]

So your round-about objection, that you didn't actually state in the post, is that the people who reside in current Palestine are God's children.

Ok, let's see.
....

You just SKIRTED the issue I was talking about and ADDED your own illiteracy about the matter. This matter about the "house of Israel" (ten tribes) and Paul's quote in Romans 9 involves the Book of Hosea, an Old Testament Book that God gave through His prophet Hosea 'specifically to...' the ten tribes of the northern "kingdom of Israel", before He scattered them by the kings of Assyria.

It's obvious you have not read the Book of Hosea, and thus don't have a clue what Apostle Paul was pointing to when he quoted from it to Roman Gentile Christians.

Rom 9:23-26
23 And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As He saith also in Osee, "I will call them My people, which were not My people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, 'Ye are not my people'; there shall they be called the children of the living God."
KJV

"Osee" is a Greek transliteration of Hosea. Paul quoted that above in red from the Book of Hosea to ROMAN GENTILE believers on Jesus Christ. And it applies to ALL peoples that believe on Jesus Christ as their Savior, regardless of nationality!

So instead of your trying to 'act' smart like you know, you might ought to pay attention to those that have... studied more of their Bible than just the New Testament Books.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I never used the word Jew once in the post you quoted. It does not matter what first century Jews called themselves. They were all cut off from Israel, except those who followed Jesus and accepted the gift of Salvation. That does not make them Israel. That makes them redeemed. They were already Israel, until cut off. So now the redeemed ones, were redeemed Israelites.

The ones who were cut off were still natural Israelites. It's not as if they were no longer descended from the nation of Israel after being cut off. They were. So, they were not cut off from being descendants of the nation of Israel, they were cut off from Spiritual Israel. As Paul said, not all who are descended from Israel (the nation of Israel) are Israel (Spiritual Israel). All descendants of the nation of Israel are natural Israelites, but only those who have faith and are children of God and of the promise are Spiritual Israelites. That is what Paul taught in Romans 9:6-8.

 

[Timtofly]

The ones who were cut off were still natural Israelites. It's not as if they were no longer descended from the nation of Israel after being cut off. They were. So, they were not cut off from being descendants of the nation of Israel, they were cut off from Spiritual Israel. As Paul said, not all who are descended from Israel (the nation of Israel) are Israel (Spiritual Israel). All descendants of the nation of Israel are natural Israelites, but only those who have faith and are children of God and of the promise are Spiritual Israelites. That is what Paul taught in Romans 9:6-8.

You argued this was not corporate, but on an individual basis. So you are saying they started out as being in Christ, but after a certain point were cut out of Christ? They retained an ethnicity, but were no longer of Christ. That is what I said, but the point of being cut off was physical death. They did not take their ethnicity to sheol, nor will there be ethnicity in the LOF.

Being cut off meant they were no longer in Christ nor ethnic Israel, as it did not matter after they were dead. Are you now saying it was corporate, and now they can only join via a spiritual relationship? They will not be ethnic Israel until that generation is restored at the Second Coming. That was the whole point of being scattered across the earth. They were no longer ethnic nor spiritual Israel. But you claimed I was wrong in that it was corporate. If God no longer acknowledges their ethnicity, why should any one? The whole part of the blindness in part was they literally lost their birthright as Israel. They may be descendants of Jacob.

Paul said: For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.

You say they are of Israel, just a different Israel now. That means two Israels and one was replaced. I literally said they were no longer Israel. Not another Israel, and Israel was not replaced. Just placed on hold until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.

You deny that Israel gets an ethnicity back, because you don't allow Israel to be born in a day, at the Second Coming. You don't allow the Day of the Lord. You don't allow Jesus sitting on a throne in a Temple in Jerusalem after the Second Coming.

You reject the simplicity that a branch cut off means they are no longer Israel, nor of Israel. They are now of their father the devil. You claim that is only spiritual. And not physical. Yet they will physically die in that state. I can see your point if you claim they were not of Israel, but only of Israel after a certain decision was made. But there was no point of decision growing up under the Law of Moses. You either obeyed the commands or died in your sin cut off from Israel. Their ethnicity was their spiritual existence in a physical law that maintained a Covenant between them and God.

It was the Cross that made ethnicity obsolete. Now they were just of Jacob, and needed the second birth like any other ethnicity on earth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You argued this was not corporate, but on an individual basis. So you are saying they started out as being in Christ, but after a certain point were cut out of Christ?

Remember, Paul figuratively referred to the individuals as branches of an olive tree. The olive tree doesn't represent Christ, the root of the olive tree does. The olive tree represents His kingdom (the kingdom of God). By default, all Israelites were in the kingdom, but those lacking faith were cut off. Remember, in Matthew 21:43-45 Jesus said unbelieving Israelites like the Pharisees would have the kingdom of God taken from them. It was natural Israelite unbelievers like them that were cut off from the kingdom of God. Those with faith remained and then individual Gentile believers were grafted in with them.

They retained an ethnicity, but were no longer of Christ.

Yes, basically. They were still natural descendants of the nation of Israel, but since they didn't believe in Christ they were cut off from the kingdom of God.

That is what I said, but the point of being cut off was physical death. They did not take their ethnicity to sheol, nor will there be ethnicity in the LOF.

You need to read what Paul actually said and go by that instead of making things up.

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Could this be any more clear? Paul said they were cut off or broken off because of unbelief, not because of physical death.

Being cut off meant they were no longer in Christ nor ethnic Israel, as it did not matter after they were dead.

No, no, no. You are completely missing it. Again, Paul said they were cut off because of unbelief. He also said they were blinded in verse 7. But, if you read Romans 11:11-14 Paul indicated that he hoped to lead some of those who were blinded and cut off to salvation. So, they were not cut off and blinded permanently. Just long enough for the gospel to go to the Gentiles, which occurred shortly after that. Then, the plan was for the salvation of the Gentiles to provoke the ones who were blinded and cut off to jealousy so that they too would want to believe in Christ and be saved. As Paul said in Romans 11:23, "And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.". The idea that they were cut off permanently with no opportunity to repent and believe later on in their lives is false.

Are you now saying it was corporate, and now they can only join via a spiritual relationship?

No. Where are you getting that idea from? You're all over the place, as usual.

They will not be ethnic Israel until that generation is restored at the Second Coming. That was the whole point of being scattered across the earth. They were no longer ethnic nor spiritual Israel. But you claimed I was wrong in that it was corporate.

You are. I never later claimed that you were right. Slow down and read what I actually say. And realize that I'm not going to later contradict what I said before.

If God no longer acknowledges their ethnicity, why should any one?

What do you mean he doesn't acknowledge their ethnicity? Sure, their ethnicity doesn't matter in Christ, but that doesn't mean they no longer have an ethnicity. I'm a Christian and I'm an American. Being a Christian doesn't mean I'm not also an American.

The whole part of the blindness in part was they literally lost their birthright as Israel. They may be descendants of Jacob.

Read all of Romans 11. Carefully. If you do you should see that the blindness of some Israelites was for the purpose of bringing the gospel to the Gentiles who then in turn would provoke those blind Israelites into jealousy so that they too would want to be saved. Salvation is an individual thing, not corporate, so you need to read Romans 11 accordingly. Paul believed that some of the individuals who were blinded and cut off back then could be saved. You can see that for yourself if you would just read Romans 11:11-14. He said they stumbled, but did not fall beyond recovery. That means they still had the opportunity to be saved and they were only blinded an cut off temporarily. But, each individual had to have faith in order to be grafted in again to the olive tree (kingdom of God).

Paul said: For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.

You say they are of Israel, just a different Israel now. That means two Israels and one was replaced.

No, it does not. You are misrepresenting what I believe, as you have done so many times before. Spiritual Israel does not replace the nation of Israel. You could see the olive tree as representing Spiritual Israel. It didn't replace anything. What happened was that some who were of natural Israel were cut off from Spiritual Israel because of unbelief. But those who believed remained in Spiritual Israel. No one was replaced. instead, Gentile believers were grafted in to join the Israelite believers. Who is replaced in this scenario? No one. It's only some being cut off and some grafted in. All are given the opportunity to be grafted in because "God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." (Romans 11:32).

I literally said they were no longer Israel. Not another Israel, and Israel was not replaced. Just placed on hold until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.

And you are literally wrong. They were still descendants of the nation of Israel, but no longer part of Spiriitual Israel because of unbelief. Only believer are part of Spiritual Israel. Being an a natural Israelite (descendant of the nation of Israel) and an unbeliever does not make you no longer a natural Israelite. That is what you are missing. Unbelief did make some natural Israelites no longer a part of Spiritual Israel, though.

You deny that Israel gets an ethnicity back, because you don't allow Israel to be born in a day, at the Second Coming.

LOL. Romans 11 has absolutely nothing to do with the Israel getting an ethnicity back, whatever that even means. Romans 11 is about individual salvation. Being grafted into the olive tree because of having faith is a figurative representation of being saved through faith and becoming part of the kingdom of God, church, Spiritual Israel.

You don't allow the Day of the Lord.

Yes, I do. Another false claim from you. One of many that you've made.

You don't allow Jesus sitting on a throne in a Temple in Jerusalem after the Second Coming.

Of course not. That's nonsense. It won't happen.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You reject the simplicity that a branch cut off means they are no longer Israel, nor of Israel.

A branch cut off? Have you ever actually read Romans 11 carefully? I don't believe you have. Where do you see anything about a branch (singular) being cut off? It's not there. Paul talked about branches (plural) being cut off, not a branch (singular).

Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

They are now of their father the devil. You claim that is only spiritual. And not physical. Yet they will physically die in that state.

They were still natural descendants of Israel. That is not dependent on whether they believed or not.

I can see your point if you claim they were not of Israel, but only of Israel after a certain decision was made.

I am claiming that as it relates to Spiritual Israel. Not all who are natural descendants of the nation of Israel are part of Spiritual Israel. Only those who have faith are part of Spiritual Israel. This is actually a very simple concept, but you're not getting it because of doctrinal bias.

But there was no point of decision growing up under the Law of Moses. You either obeyed the commands or died in your sin cut off from Israel. Their ethnicity was their spiritual existence in a physical law that maintained a Covenant between them and God.

Until Christ that was the case, but then once He came those who rejected Him were cut off from Spiritual Israel and the kingdom of God because of their unbelief. But, they were still natural descendants of the nation of Israel. Their ethnicity or nationality did not change. That's what you're not getting for whatever reason. And you're also not getting that even though they were blinded and cut off, they still later had the opportunity to believe and be grafted in (to be saved) because Paul said he hoped to lead some of them to salvation himself (see Romans 11:11-14).

It was the Cross that made ethnicity obsolete. Now they were just of Jacob, and needed the second birth like any other ethnicity on earth.

LOL. No, the cross did not make ethnicity obsolete. It made it so that ethnicity didn't matter in the church, but it didn't make it so that people no longer had ethnicities at all. Again, I'm a Christian, but that doesn't mean I can't also be considered an American.

 

[Timtofly]

So, they were not cut off and blinded permanently. Just long enough for the gospel to go to the Gentiles, which occurred shortly after that. Then, the plan was for the salvation of the Gentiles to provoke the ones who were blinded and cut off to jealousy so that they too would want to believe in Christ and be saved. As Paul said in Romans 11:23, "And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.". The idea that they were cut off permanently with no opportunity to repent and believe later on in their lives is false.

Yet here we are 1900 years later. Kind of hard to bring back those dead branches that were cut off.

That is the point. I never said death was the cause of them being cut off, but that death made them cut off permanently.

My point was that they no longer could claim Israel ethnicity once cut off. They were no longer born into the kingdom of God. That happened to the ten tribes in 720BC. That a few natural branches survived until the first century was by the grace of God. Israel ethnicity has not returned as given in Scripture where blindness in part has been removed. The fulness of the Gentiles is not yet complete.

I never argued that you and I could not be grafted into the kingdom of God. But as Gentiles, not ethnic Israel unless you are of ethnic Jacob and once more called an Israelite. We are in Christ, not in Israel. The kingdom of God is Christ the King, not in Israel. Jesus is an Israelite by ethnicity. Gentiles are not. Israel was a natural branch with natural branches, not the tree. You say only the roots were Jesus. The tree is more the physical kingdom of God than you care to admit. Gentile branches being grafted in was not a new thing. They just never seemed to become solid branches with their own solid branches, as ethnicity only pertained to Israel. Had whole nations adopted the Covenant for more generations than a few, history may have been different than what we know.

Now you are just making Paul say not all of spiritual Israel is Israel. You are adding the word spiritual to make it never about ethnicity and being born into Israel. You have replaced ethnicity that is physical with the term kingdom of God which is spiritual.


You seem to imply it was never being about ethnicity ever. The point was that the Covenantal relationship with God, this kingdom of God, was all about ethnicity. Nicodemus had no clue whatsoever about the second birth, until Jesus introduced the point to him. First birth, second birth, as birth implies ethnicity.

You seem to forget that the point was being cut off, not about how they were already in Christ via ethnicity. The second birth is the grafted in part. You seem to reject the point they no longer had an ethnic Israel relationship with God either. The whole point that being Jew nor Gentile did not matter any more. They were literally no longer Israel.

Can you convince those under the Law prior to the Cross that their Israelite ethnicity did not matter because it was only physical? They would ask like Nicodemus did, can a man enter the womb a second time, because to them it was real and was physical.

Perhaps the issue is that you are talking from your point of view. Paul was not. Paul was talking to them with their point of view. You say they can still call themselves Israel. Paul is saying, no. They were cut off and lost that ethnicity relationship. To be Israel now is only with the second birth, being grafted in. There are not two Israels, which you seem to imply. In fact you call one Israel physical and the other Israel spiritual. Creation does not have a split personality issue. Part of creation is blind and has been blind for quite some time.

The blindness to Jacob will be removed at the Second Coming. So will the blindness of the Gentiles be removed, which was always permanent. Gentiles will still be deceived by Satan.

 

[DavidTaylor]

There were 3 southern tribes, and one neutral landless tribe (Levi), totally 4 non-northern tribes.

Benjamin, Judah, and Simeon (which was contained inside the boundary of Judah).
The Levites had no tribal land, they were set aside for temple and synagogue service.

There are no 10 lost tribes.
Myth like Bigfoot and the Bermuda Triangle.

 

[Keraz]

There are no 10 lost tribes.

God knows where the House of Israel is now. Amos 9-9 God sent His Son to save them: Matthew 15:24, and the successful result is the Christian peoples, from every tribe, race, nation and language. 1 Peter 2:9-10, Revelation 5:9-10

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yet here we are 1900 years later. Kind of hard to bring back those dead branches that were cut off.

LOL. You still don't get it. Have you ever actually read Romans 11? Yes or no? The branches were not cut off by way of death, they were cut off because of unbelief. They are the same individual Israelites that Paul said were blinded and had stumbled, but not beyond recovery. Paul said he hoped to lead some of them to salvation. Do you understand what I'm saying?

That is the point. I never said death was the cause of them being cut off, but that death made them cut off permanently.

Where does Paul ever say anything about death cutting them off permanently? He never says anything like that in Romans 11.

My point was that they no longer could claim Israel ethnicity once cut off.

Yes, they could. It says they were broken or cut off because of unbelief. How can unbelief cause someone to lose their natural ethnicity? That is ridiculous. They were cut off in a spiritual sense, not a natural, physical sense. They were not cut off as natural descendants of Israel, they were cut off from the kingdom of God and Spiritual Israel.

Now you are just making Paul say not all of spiritual Israel is Israel.

No, I'm not doing that at all. You have the worst reading comprehension skills of anyone I've ever seen. I'm not sure why I'm wasting my time with you since you misunderstand and misrepresent everything I say.