The final harvest?

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quietthinker

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Jesus said world history is like an agricultural year, in which the hoped-for crops would have to mature. In order for this to happen, weeds would have to be allowed to mature as well. The Lord has no wish to immediately destroy what looks like weeds when they may turn out to be part of the crops.

This age is characterized by God's Kingdom appearing as near through the ministry of Christ's Gospel. And yet, it cannot yet be here because of this agricultural process. God is not willing to comprehensively destroy the world as it is because He is still developing His crops.

There are still judgments from God going on all through NT history, and yet comprehensive judgment, indicated by the Flood story, is not ready to come until this maturing process of God's crops is completed. What do you think indicates in our day this harvest is coming to completion?
I don't think God is a destroyer but Satan tries to persuade us he is.

The idea/ way of seeing that God is responsible for both good and bad pervades the OT. It is born from the yin and yang theories of paganism. Jesus reveals to us a God who would rather die than kill and it doesn't suit men with a carnal mindset. Men interpret justice as revenge, God interprets justice as liberation. Carnal man wants God to kick arse for them; they want God to get the pound of flesh they think is owing them but Paul corrects this view by saying, love holds no record of wrongs. Men find this intolerable.
 
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face2face

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I don't think God is a destroyer but Satan tries to persuade us he is.

The idea/ way of seeing that God is responsible for both good and bad pervades the OT. It is born from the yin and yang theories of paganism. Jesus reveals to us a God who would rather die than kill and it doesn't suit men with a carnal mindset. Men interpret justice as revenge, God interprets justice as liberation. Carnal man wants God to kick arse for them; they want God to get the pound of flesh they think is owing them but Jesus corrects this view by saying, love holds no record of wrongs. Men find this intolerable.
This is humanism quiet.

I've already shown you Cain without a response...

Take Judas as an example...we are told "Judas turned aside to go to his own place" Ac 1:25. To mean the place of his chosing i.e. the grave. A permenant location which God the righteous judge allows all men disobedient or otherwise to go.

This of course was fortold of the Master "The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.

Not to imply some eternal punishment, but to spend eternity in the grave is punishment enough.

Sadly, much of what you right of God is actually on point - just need the Word to allow for some fine tuning! You spiritual engine is out of balance.

Take care

F2F

Note: the implied "cease to exist" teaching...when all is said and done Judas being forgotten, is as though he never lived, its the reality for many who make such decisions.
 

quietthinker

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This is humanism quiet.

I've already shown you Cain without a response...

Take Judas as an example...we are told "Judas turned aside to go to his own place" Ac 1:25. To mean the place of his chosing i.e. the grave. A permenant location which God the righteous judge allows all men disobedient or otherwise to go.

This of course was fortold of the Master "The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.

Not to imply some eternal punishment, but to spend eternity in the grave is punishment enough.

Sadly, much of what you right of God is actually on point - just need the Word to allow for some fine tuning! You spiritual engine is out of balance.

Take care

F2F

Note: the implied "cease to exist" teaching...when all is said and done Judas being forgotten, is as though he never lived, its the reality for many who make such decisions.
I'm not sure how you came to address what you have, from my post....let alone call it humanism.
 

face2face

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I'm not sure how you came to address what you have, from my post....let alone call it humanism.
Typical response. You speak as though you know Him and His justice when in reality you don't.

F2F.
 

quietthinker

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It's only poor if the judgement is in error - clearly your understanding of God's is far from Biblical. Try again if you like!
ahhhh, biblical! It seems to me there are dozens of views as to what folk deem biblical on this site. I suppose it's your understanding which is unquestionable ....and that with permission to judge those whom you deem don't meet your criteria. In any case, I see you are fixed in your ideas sufficiently to feel you can make definitive judgements on others. I am sure glad God's generosity outweighs yours.
 

quietthinker

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True enough - but what of Judas, Cain and many others who now are without hope....or like them will you choose your own way/truth?
it seems you are asking this as if you do not choose your own way/truth!
 

face2face

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it seems you are asking this as if you do not choose your own way/truth!
It just happens that I am the one using Scripture to support truth while you seem to enjoy using your own thoughts. What of Judas, Cain and many others who choose their own way? Will you do likewise with Gods judgements?
 

quietthinker

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It just happens that I am the one using Scripture to support truth while you seem to enjoy using your own thoughts. What of Judas, Cain and many others who choose their own way? Will you do likewise with Gods judgements?
hmmmmm
 

PinSeeker

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In this I have to ask, where does Scripture say the partial hardening on Israel, the elect ethnic Jews shall be removed after the full number of Gentiles have been saved?
Paul says it very clearly in Romans 11:25-26...

"Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved..."

Note the 'until,' there, RWB.

Would you not agree that all Israel, including elect ethnic Jews shall be saved during this Gospel age of grace.
Yes. Of course.

And that since the advent of Christ's coming to earth a man there is neither Jew nor Gentile, but one people in Christ, Christians from every nation, tribe, kindred and tongue.
Absolutely. But I would say that that was always the case, even before the advent of Christ. There were foreigners among the Israelites before the advent of Jesus, and that foreshadowed the coming opening of the Gospel to the Gentiles. God always had one people, not two, in Christ. Just between me and you, the quote of Hebrews 1 is in my signature on this forum for a reason... :)

Grace and peace to you.
 

rwb

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The hour started with Lazarus. There is no future single resurrection of the dead, period.

What hour started with Lazarus?

You deny the plain writing from Scripture that tells us an hour is coming when ALL that are in the graves shall be physically resurrected. What you need to reconcile is when did those who lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years begin? Would you agree that we live and reign with Christ physically on this earth when we spiritually enter the Kingdom of God when we are born again, and have the Spirit of Christ eternally in us?

Why is it so hard to accept that Paradise was opened at the Cross, because of the NT Atonement Covenant?

If by paradise you mean 'heaven', I agree spiritual access to heaven for the saints became possible through the cross and resurrection. That's the whole point of Rev 20. John is showing us that death/grave no longer has power over those in Christ. Because those Old Covenant faithful saints who were faithful unto physical death ascended with Christ to heaven a 'spiritual body'. That is exactly the same thing Paul tells us when he says, "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."
Solomon also gives us assurance that the spirit of every human being returns to God when our body physically dies (Ecc. 12:7).

The faithful saints John writes of were physically alive on earth during this time symbolized a thousand years. Since they were faithful unto death, John is given to understand they are still spiritually alive in heaven since the cross & resurrection. They had already lived and reigned with Christ in time (a thousand years), so now since Christ came they are spiritually alive in heaven a spiritual body of believers there, just as they were a physical body of believers while alive in time symbolized a thousand years.

These Old Covenant faithful saints physically lived and died, but unlike the rest of the dead who will not be raised to life again until time symbolized a thousand years expires, they have spiritually risen from their physical bodies of death through their eternal spirit, ALIVE through the Spirit from Christ in them. Death could not keep them because Christ defeated sin and death, and the one who had held them in bondage to fear of death, the Devil.

John goes on to show us that there will be others, or those who are faithful from the cross and resurrection also. These he writes are blessed and holy have part in the first resurrection, so the second death has no power over them either. Just as death could not hold the Old Covenant faithful saints who lived and died before the coming of Christ, so too death cannot hold those who are of faith since Christ has come. While physically alive John writes, they are priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him in time symbolized a thousand years.

There will not be 'two' separate thousand year periods of time. There is only a/the thousand years when both Old Covenant faithful saints lived and died, and when New Covenant faithful saints shall live and reign with Christ as long as they live. That's why we know a/the thousand years does not equate to ONE thousand years, but rather symbolizes time that began with the first advent of Christ being the 'first resurrection' of the dead. Therefore we know the 'first resurrection' is not physical, but is a physical resurrection EVERY saint must have part in to overcome the second death. The OC faithful saints partook of the first resurrection through the resurrection of Christ when they ascended with Him ALIVE, a spiritual body of believers. And NC saints partake of the first resurrection through the resurrection of Christ when we are born again, being made spiritually ALIVE through His Spirit in us. When our physical body dies, our spirit, kept ALIVE through the Spirit of Christ in us, will depart from our dead body and ascend to heaven to join with the spiritual body of believers already there.

We cannot enter heaven (paradise) in physical bodies because our physical bodies will not be resurrected immortal & incorruptible until the last trumpet sounds. No mortal & corruptible being can enter into the realm of God, heaven, because neither flesh & blood, nor corruption may enter there.


"Christ the firstfruits" as Paul put it in 1 Corinthians 15:23.

Yes, Paul writes Christ is the firstfruits, and Paul tells us "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept." Christ being risen from the dead has become the firstfruits of them that had already physically died in faith. These are those whom John writes "have lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." IOW in TIME symbolized a thousand years they were faithful unto death and therefore when Christ defeated death by His cross and resurrection, John understands (saw them) they are physically dead, but SPIRITUALLY ALIVE, a living spiritual body of believers in heaven, where they wait until the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is complete when they will be a resurrected immortal & incorruptible physical body of believers fit for life on the new earth.

Those who came out of their graves came out and appeared to many those 3 days, but ascended on Sunday with Jesus.

There is ZERO confirmation found in Scripture for this opinion! The verse tells us only that they came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. There is nothing written about who they appeared to and for how long. Nor does it make sense to write of Jerusalem of old as being "the holy city" after the crucification and resurrection of Christ.
 

PinSeeker

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...you are misidentifying the first resurrection in this passage.
I appreciate your opinion, EWQ, but I think the very same of you. And there are other irresolvable conflicts that your views presents, concerning which I've been very clear.


Spiritually resurrected people were killed, then took part in the first resurrection...
Disagree (yet again). I understand your thinking, but neither Revelation 20 nor any other passage in scripture even intimate such a thing.

The rest of the dead did not resurrect until much later ...
I say again, you're misreading that. I talked about validity versus accuracy before; what you say is not invalid ~ in that it could be read that way ~ but is very inaccurate ~ in that it is meant in a very different way than you suppose.

The unjust cannot resurrect at the time the just resurrect.
A very colorful opinion... :) And directly conflicting with ~ diametrically opposed to ~ what Jesus says in John 5:28-29... "Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."

Grace and peace to you.
 

rwb

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Paul says it very clearly in Romans 11:25-26...

"Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved..."

Note the 'until,' there, RWB.

Yes, I'm familiar with the verses. Until "the fullness of the Gentiles has come in", not 'until the partial hardening is lifted'. Paul never says the partial hardening will be lifted after the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. Paul writes they were cut off through unbelief, but if they do not remain in unbelief they can be grafted in again with the Gentiles of faith. It is this way that all Israel shall be saved. That is when all who shall be saved believe in Christ, whether ethnic Israelite or Gentile during this age of Gospel grace, and the spiritual Kingdom of God is complete. The mystery that had been hidden was that Gentiles of faith would complete the spiritual Kingdom of God so that all people (whether Jew or Gentiles) of faith in Christ shall belong to the Kingdom of God.

Romans 11:23-26 (KJV) And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Grace and Peace to you also
 

PinSeeker

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If it was a demonstration then why did it not go viral across the whole earth?
LOL!!! Because there were no I-phones or YouTube, I guess...

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If you allow a dozen to be taken out of their graves, why is it that much more difficult to point out 100%. You may as well claim a few people get raptured prior to Jacob's trouble, instead of forcing the entire church on earth to go through it. I mean if you claim a dozen lucky souls got to enter Paradise, and the rest still wait in death for 1993 years, why not have a God of partial promises, or some lottery system of belief?
LOL!!! You're going to believe what you're going to believe, Timtofly.

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And, you can say the same of me; I'm fine with that. :) It's okay, my friend.

Grace and peace to you.
 

PinSeeker

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Until "the fullness of the Gentiles has come in", not 'until the partial hardening is lifted'. Paul never says the partial hardening will be lifted after the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. Paul writes they were cut off through unbelief, but if they do not remain in unbelief they can be grafted in again with the Gentiles of faith. It is this way that all Israel shall be saved. That is when all who shall be saved believe in Christ, whether ethnic Israelite or Gentile during this age of Gospel grace, and the spiritual Kingdom of God is complete. The mystery that had been hidden was that Gentiles of faith would complete the spiritual Kingdom of God so that all people (whether Jew or Gentiles) of faith in Christ shall belong to the Kingdom of GodRomans 11:23-26 (KJV) And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
I'm really not sure what you're taking issue with, here, RWB. I say that if there is any disagreement between us here, it is very, very minor and not worth quibbling over. It seems we agree that all will be done prior to Christ's return and can leave it at that.

Grace and peace to you, brother.
 

ewq1938

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I appreciate your opinion, EWQ, but I think the very same of you.

But we both aren't right and my interpretation is far more solid, and based on the text.


A very colorful opinion... :) And directly conflicting with ~ diametrically opposed to ~ what Jesus says in John 5:28-29... "Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."

Grace and peace to you.


A time is coming for all, the just first and the unjust last, separated by a thousand years. That is understanding John 5 and Rev 20 together, something Amill does not do because of the information about the period of time between the two resurrections. "the rest of the dead lived not again until..." will always support that.