The final harvest?

[Timtofly]

What hour started with Lazarus?

You deny the plain writing from Scripture that tells us an hour is coming when ALL that are in the graves shall be physically resurrected. What you need to reconcile is when did those who lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years begin? Would you agree that we live and reign with Christ physically on this earth when we spiritually enter the Kingdom of God when we are born again, and have the Spirit of Christ eternally in us?



If by paradise you mean 'heaven', I agree spiritual access to heaven for the saints became possible through the cross and resurrection. That's the whole point of Rev 20. John is showing us that death/grave no longer has power over those in Christ. Because those Old Covenant faithful saints who were faithful unto physical death ascended with Christ to heaven a 'spiritual body'. That is exactly the same thing Paul tells us when he says, "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."
Solomon also gives us assurance that the spirit of every human being returns to God when our body physically dies (Ecc. 12:7).

The faithful saints John writes of were physically alive on earth during this time symbolized a thousand years. Since they were faithful unto death, John is given to understand they are still spiritually alive in heaven since the cross & resurrection. They had already lived and reigned with Christ in time (a thousand years), so now since Christ came they are spiritually alive in heaven a spiritual body of believers there, just as they were a physical body of believers while alive in time symbolized a thousand years.

These Old Covenant faithful saints physically lived and died, but unlike the rest of the dead who will not be raised to life again until time symbolized a thousand years expires, they have spiritually risen from their physical bodies of death through their eternal spirit, ALIVE through the Spirit from Christ in them. Death could not keep them because Christ defeated sin and death, and the one who had held them in bondage to fear of death, the Devil.

John goes on to show us that there will be others, or those who are faithful from the cross and resurrection also. These he writes are blessed and holy have part in the first resurrection, so the second death has no power over them either. Just as death could not hold the Old Covenant faithful saints who lived and died before the coming of Christ, so too death cannot hold those who are of faith since Christ has come. While physically alive John writes, they are priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him in time symbolized a thousand years.

There will not be 'two' separate thousand year periods of time. There is only a/the thousand years when both Old Covenant faithful saints lived and died, and when New Covenant faithful saints shall live and reign with Christ as long as they live. That's why we know a/the thousand years does not equate to ONE thousand years, but rather symbolizes time that began with the first advent of Christ being the 'first resurrection' of the dead. Therefore we know the 'first resurrection' is not physical, but is a physical resurrection EVERY saint must have part in to overcome the second death. The OC faithful saints partook of the first resurrection through the resurrection of Christ when they ascended with Him ALIVE, a spiritual body of believers. And NC saints partake of the first resurrection through the resurrection of Christ when we are born again, being made spiritually ALIVE through His Spirit in us. When our physical body dies, our spirit, kept ALIVE through the Spirit of Christ in us, will depart from our dead body and ascend to heaven to join with the spiritual body of believers already there.

We cannot enter heaven (paradise) in physical bodies because our physical bodies will not be resurrected immortal & incorruptible until the last trumpet sounds. No mortal & corruptible being can enter into the realm of God, heaven, because neither flesh & blood, nor corruption may enter there.




Yes, Paul writes Christ is the firstfruits, and Paul tells us "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept." Christ being risen from the dead has become the firstfruits of them that had already physically died in faith. These are those whom John writes "have lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." IOW in TIME symbolized a thousand years they were faithful unto death and therefore when Christ defeated death by His cross and resurrection, John understands (saw them) they are physically dead, but SPIRITUALLY ALIVE, a living spiritual body of believers in heaven, where they wait until the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is complete when they will be a resurrected immortal & incorruptible physical body of believers fit for life on the new earth.



There is ZERO confirmation found in Scripture for this opinion! The verse tells us only that they came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. There is nothing written about who they appeared to and for how long. Nor does it make sense to write of Jerusalem of old as being "the holy city" after the crucification and resurrection of Christ.

The hour now is.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."

Who are the dead?

Paul pointed out Paradise was the third heaven. 2 Corinthians 12

"such an one caught up to the third heaven. How that he was caught up into paradise."

What does spiritual access even mean? There is a physical body from God waiting for the soul, after Adam's dead flesh is set aside. That verse you keep avoiding at all cost. This body you call spiritual is a physical body and without sin, thus spiritual, not of Adam and the earth.

We can enter Paradise in a physical body, because it is already prepared for us by God when the soul arrives. Unless you think your soul has to wait somewhere in the ground, until this alleged final hour you keep injecting into your post as if it never started at the physical resurrection of Lazarus. Lazarus did come out of his grave just like the verse claims. You deny that first physical resurrection. The hour started with Lazarus and has not stopped.

So now you deny that Jesus was crucified and resurrected near the old Jerusalem, around 30AD? We don't need proof, other than Jesus' words to Mary and Paul declared those in captivity in Abraham's bosom, the lower parts of the earth were set free. They did not re-enter the grave. They bodily ascended with Jesus early Sunday morning. The were the first order of humans made alive, the firstfruits.

You asked when I thought your interpretation of Revelation 20 started. Revelation 20 has not started yet, because sin and wickedness still abound on the earth. That 1,000 years cannot start until all of Adam's dead corruptible flesh is destroyed. Not one human left in this state of death. For Jesus must rule until the earth is subdued, in righteousness, after the Second Coming. Not subdued by Adam's dead corruptible flesh until the Second Coming. The fulness of the Gentiles has been the state of the last 1993 years.

 

[rwb]

I'm really not sure what you're taking issue with, here, RWB. I say that if there is any disagreement between us here, it is very, very minor and not worth quibbling over. It seems we agree that all will be done prior to Christ's return and can leave it at that.

Grace and peace to you, brother.

I'm glad to hear you say this. Perhaps it was your wording, or maybe my misunderstanding you, but it appeared you were saying that there would still be elect ethnic Jews who would be saved after the fullness of the Gentiles have come in. That made it appear to me that you believed there would be more time given this earth for saving these elect Jews after the spiritual Kingdom of God is complete. Sorry if I misunderstood.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[rwb]

The hour now is.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."

Who are the dead?

Tim, you're confusing the hour "NOW IS" with the hour that is coming. The hour that now is when spiritually dead, physically alive people hear the Gospel, and by grace through faith believe Christ. Through believing Christ those who were spiritually dead "in trespasses and sins" have become spiritually alive through the Spirit of Christ in us. The hour that now is when "the dead [SPIRITUALLY] shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live." In hearing the Gospel proclaimed and believing by the power of His Word and Spirit is "the hour that now is", and the hour coming shall be when ALL who are physically dead hear Christ's voice calling them from the graves and they shall ALL come forth, and those who have done good in life physically resurrected to life, and those who have done evil resurrected to damnation.

 

[Timtofly]

Tim, you're confusing the hour "NOW IS" with the hour that is coming. The hour that now is when spiritually dead, physically alive people hear the Gospel, and by grace through faith believe Christ. Through believing Christ those who were spiritually dead "in trespasses and sins" have become spiritually alive through the Spirit of Christ in us. The hour that now is when "the dead [SPIRITUALLY] shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live." In hearing the Gospel proclaimed and believing by the power of His Word and Spirit is "the hour that now is", and the hour coming shall be when ALL who are physically dead hear Christ's voice calling them from the graves and they shall ALL come forth, and those who have done good in life physically resurrected to life, and those who have done evil resurrected to damnation.

And you are refusing to see the dead physically resurrected prior to the Cross.

That hour already started.

The rest of Abraham's bosom came forth at the Cross, never to return to death, period.

The rest of the dead are still waiting in sheol. They will still be waiting a thousand years from now, for that hour to end.

Being made alive is both spiritual and physical not one or the other as if at odds with God's creation. Adam and all the sons of God were created soul, body, and spirit. The soul is you. The body is your physical body. The spirit is your spiritual spirit. All part of the image of God. God, the Word, and the Holy Spirit.

 

[PinSeeker]

But we both aren't right...

Which I have said more than once...

...and my interpretation is far more solid, and based on the text.

So you think; I fully understand.

A time is coming for all, the just first and the unjust last, separated by a thousand years.

So you... and at least some "Amill," because there are variations of amillennialism... think.

I agree with you that the just are judged first, as we see in Matthew 25:34-40, and then after the just the unjust, as we see in the same passage from verse 41 through 45, so we agree on the ordering of the judgments in the final Judgment. But we disagree on the time in between the two; there is no appreciable time difference ~ much less a thousand years ~ between one and the other.

Note: I know you're specifically talking about the first and second resurrections, but I'm sure... well, I hope... you'll agree that the same applies to the final Judgment. There is no appreciable time period between the judgment of the just and the judgment of the unjust; the latter is right after the first. And together, all are judged right after the return of Christ. And all this happens right after the second resurrection. This is the time when, as Jesus says in John 5:28-29, "...all who (were) in the tombs will (have just heard) His voice and (have just) come out (of their tombs and thus been physically resurrected), those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."​

And, just regarding Revelation 20:1-6, there are not two different resurrections in view there, but collectively only one, and the ones who share in it are blessed, each at his/her own time. Although... in the sense that this first resurrection is specific only to God's elect (the blessed, the justified) and individual in nature to those who share in it over the course of the millennium, the actual number of first/spiritual resurrections, while only once for each individual, is innumerable, the same as the number of God's elect. In other words, all those who are born again of the Spirit are spiritually resurrected at that point individually. So, if we look at it collectively (for all God's elect), it is one resurrection. But if we look at it individually (for each of God's elect), it is an innumerable multitude of resurrections. There is a collective aspect to it, and an individual aspect to it at the same time; we can say this about a lot of things.

That is understanding John 5 and Rev 20 together...

So you think. So "Amill" thinks. But no; see above. We can keep going back and forth like this forever if you want...

.... something Amill does not do because of the information about the period of time between the two resurrections.

It's the nature of the two resurrections that is the issue, and the understanding of the first by amillennialists is in error. But again, yeah, we can keep going back and forth if you want...

"the rest of the dead lived not again until..." will always support that.

If you keep reading it the way you are, which is wrong, yes. I mean, from my avatar, you can tell I'm a golfer. If one hits every drive with his/her clubface open and his/her downswing cutting across the ball from outside the target line to inside, then his/her ball is going to slice out of bounds every... single... time...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[rwb]

What does spiritual access even mean? There is a physical body from God waiting for the soul, after Adam's dead flesh is set aside. That verse you keep avoiding at all cost. This body you call spiritual is a physical body and without sin, thus spiritual, not of Adam and the earth.

Heaven is the abode of God, and His angels. It is a spiritual habitation not a physical one. That's why Paul writes that flesh & blood, nor corruption may enter there. Man only has access to heaven with life through his/her eternal spirit alive through the power of the Spirit in us. I really don't understand what point you're trying to make in reference to Adam's dead flesh???? Once again, every living, breathing creature upon the face of the whole earth is a living soul through a body of flesh alive through a spirit in them. Why you keep saying the physical body is waiting for the soul makes no sense! Man is body plus spirit and together, alive the two [body + spirit] makes us "living souls" upon the earth. If the spiritual body is a physical body without sin why does Paul write "There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body"? And Paul says that which was first is natural, of the earth, earthly of the image of Adam, and that which is spiritual is as the Lord from heaven, heavenly, celestial bearing the image of the heavenly.

 

[rwb]

Being made alive is both spiritual and physical not one or the other as if at odds with God's creation. Adam and all the sons of God were created soul, body, and spirit. The soul is you. The body is your physical body. The spirit is your spiritual spirit. All part of the image of God. God, the Word, and the Holy Spirit.

This is right Tim, except when you say "the sons of God were created soul, body and spirit." All mankind is created with a body and spirit and together we are ALL while alive "living souls." Yes, God created man in His image, and in the beginning, before the fall, God called His creation "very good." But then sin and death through sin entered into creation, and God's very good creation was ordained to death the moment man disobeyed God and the spiritual image of God became as "dead in trespasses and sins." Now the spirit in mankind giving life to their physical body is natural, earthy, or the earth as was Adam & Eve. Man no longer has what you call a "spiritual spirit". Rather our spirit is now marred by sin and death. And for this reason mankind must be born again to once again have eternal spiritual life (spirit) with God. When we are born again through the Spirit of Christ in us, our spirit has become eternal or as you say spiritual, through His Spirit our spirit can never die. Because we have part in the resurrection life of Christ, Who is the "first resurrection."

 

[PinSeeker]

...it appeared you were saying that there would still be elect ethnic Jews who would be saved after the fullness of the Gentiles have come in.

I do believe this, RWB. But... read on...

That made it appear to me that you believed there would be more time given this earth for saving these elect Jews after the spiritual Kingdom of God is complete.

I understand how that could have appeared that way to you, but I don't think what I say above presents any conflict. I don't believe there will be "more time given for saving elect Jews" ~ that doesn't necessarily follow from what I said. But I do believe that in Romans 11:25-26, there is a sequential-ness to bringing the fullness of the Gentiles in and then the removal of the partial hardening; I see that as very much incontrovertible. But all I would say is that there is no appreciable time period between the fullness of the Gentiles being brought in and the subsequent removal of the partial hardening now on Israel.

Sorry if I misunderstood.

No apology necessary, my friend.

Grace and peace to you.

To you also!

 

[ewq1938]

And, just regarding Revelation 20:1-6, there are not two different resurrections in view there, but collectively only one, and the ones who share in it are blessed, each at his/her own time. Although... in the sense that this first resurrection is specific only to God's elect (the blessed, the justified) and individual in nature to those who share in it over the course of the millennium

Not according to the text. The first resurrection is completed before the thousand years begins. Those of the first resurrection will be reigning with Christ. Only the reigning takes place during the thousand years, not any resurrections. There is no on going first resurrection through the thousand years. It is a one time event for the dead in Christ, to be resurrected while the "rest of the dead" do not resurrect at that time because the rest of the dead are the unjust.

 

[rwb]

And you are refusing to see the dead physically resurrected prior to the Cross.

That hour already started.

The rest of Abraham's bosom came forth at the Cross, never to return to death, period.

The rest of the dead are still waiting in sheol. They will still be waiting a thousand years from now, for that hour to end.

Being made alive is both spiritual and physical not one or the other as if at odds with God's creation. Adam and all the sons of God were created soul, body, and spirit. The soul is you. The body is your physical body. The spirit is your spiritual spirit. All part of the image of God. God, the Word, and the Holy Spirit.

Tim, all who were physically resurrected before the cross and resurrection are not the physically dead in the graves who shall be resurrected in an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds. Those physically resurrected before the first advent of Christ did not have part in the first resurrection before the resurrection of Christ. Because Christ is the resurrection and the life! The first born from the dead! Which is why in life we must partake of Him, for He is the first resurrection, and all who are born again in Him have overcome the second death, being faithful unto death faithful saints who have lived and reigned and shall reign with Christ in time, symbolized a thousand years.

Colossians 1:18 (KJV) And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Acts 26:23 (KJV) That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

1 Corinthians 15:20 (KJV) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Revelation 1:5 (KJV) And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Revelation 1:18 (KJV) I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

 

[PinSeeker]

Not according to the text.

In... your opinion. Mine is otherwise.

The first resurrection is completed before the thousand years begins.

In... your opinion. Mine is otherwise... or to clarify, the first resurrection is completed when the millennium is ended; and actually that the millennium comes to a close when the collective first resurrection of all individual members of God's elect is complete.

Those of the first resurrection will be reigning with Christ.

Right, and are now, and we, as born again Christians, are reigning in Christ even now ~ in and through the Spirit, just as He is with us in and through the Spirit even now, as He said in Matthew 28:20.

Only the reigning takes place during the thousand years...

During and after, in spirit now and then, after the millennium, in person with Christ.

...not any resurrections.

The first occurs individually and spiritually during the physical lifetime of the individual members of God's elect, and in this way they are blessed, as Revelation 20:5 says.

There is no on going first resurrection through the thousand years.

Not for individuals, no, but collectively, viewing God's elect as one entity, it is progressive... each at his or her own appointed-by-God time ~ as in Acts 13:48 ("...as many as were appointed to eternal life believed"). And they believed because God, even when they (we) were (are) dead in their (our) sin, made them (us) alive together with Christ and raised them (us) up with Him ~ resurrected them/us spiritually ~ and seated them (us) with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

... It is a one time event for the dead in Christ...

Individually, yes, absolutely.

NOTE: The phrase "dead in Christ" is a misnomer, a contradiction in terms. If anyone is dead in his/her sin, they are not in Christ or of God but rather in Adam and of their father the devil (John 8, 10).

... to be resurrected while the "rest of the dead" do not resurrect at that time because the rest of the dead are the unjust.

A continued conflation. I understand your stubborn refusal to differentiate between the spiritual and the physical, but strongly encourage you not to continue in it.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[rwb]

Not according to the text. The first resurrection is completed before the thousand years begins.

How can the first resurrection be completed before the thousand years begins, when the text plainly states "they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years"? And it also says there are others who were not martyred for their faith who shall also reign with Christ a thousand years??? "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

How can the martyred saints have lived and reigned before the thousand years, and also others who have part in the first resurrection, overcome the second death reign with Christ a thousand years?

 

[Timtofly]

Heaven is the abode of God, and His angels. It is a spiritual habitation not a physical one. That's why Paul writes that flesh & blood, nor corruption may enter there. Man only has access to heaven with life through his/her eternal spirit alive through the power of the Spirit in us. I really don't understand what point you're trying to make in reference to Adam's dead flesh???? Once again, every living, breathing creature upon the face of the whole earth is a living soul through a body of flesh alive through a spirit in them. Why you keep saying the physical body is waiting for the soul makes no sense! Man is body plus spirit and together, alive the two [body + spirit] makes us "living souls" upon the earth. If the spiritual body is a physical body without sin why does Paul write "There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body"? And Paul says that which was first is natural, of the earth, earthly of the image of Adam, and that which is spiritual is as the Lord from heaven, heavenly, celestial bearing the image of the heavenly.

You keep skipping over the first verse in the chapter, or you would see the difference between a corruptible physical body and an incorruptible physical body. The spirit is not a body. You can call this physical body spiritual, but it is physical not air. Spiritual as in "from God", not a spirit or ghost.

 

[rwb]

You keep skipping over the first verse in the chapter, or you would see the difference between a corruptible physical body and an incorruptible physical body. The spirit is not a body. You can call this physical body spiritual, but it is physical not air. Spiritual as in "from God", not a spirit or ghost.

The difference between a corruptible physical body and incorruptible physical body is that the incorruptible physical body shall also be immortal, it will NEVER die. I've never said the spirit is a physical body. I have repeatedly stated that man must have both a physical living body with a spirit to be a living soul. The physical body does not become a spiritual body! The physical body is destined to die and return to the earth! It is only the spirit in man, indwelt with the Holy Spirit from Christ that has eternal life when he/she is born again of the Spirit that will NEVER cease to have life. That's why after physical death when the spirit in man returns to God, it is only the spirit alive through the Spirit of Christ that in heaven becomes living spiritual body.

 

[Timtofly]

This is right Tim, except when you say "the sons of God were created soul, body and spirit." All mankind is created with a body and spirit and together we are ALL while alive "living souls." Yes, God created man in His image, and in the beginning, before the fall, God called His creation "very good." But then sin and death through sin entered into creation, and God's very good creation was ordained to death the moment man disobeyed God and the spiritual image of God became as "dead in trespasses and sins." Now the spirit in mankind giving life to their physical body is natural, earthy, or the earth as was Adam & Eve. Man no longer has what you call a "spiritual spirit". Rather our spirit is now marred by sin and death. And for this reason mankind must be born again to once again have eternal spiritual life (spirit) with God. When we are born again through the Spirit of Christ in us, our spirit has become eternal or as you say spiritual, through His Spirit our spirit can never die. Because we have part in the resurrection life of Christ, Who is the "first resurrection."

You are a soul in a physical body. You don't have access to the spirit, because you are spiritually dead. You have the Holy Spirit as interest until your spirit is returned to you.

The OT redeemed had limited access to the Holy Spirit as the Word was Spirit breathed to those who wrote down God's Word from God. After the Cross, the Holy Spirit was promised to all in Christ.

The spirit is put on at the Second Coming. That is when this verse takes place.

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

It is not that we are ignorant. We don't have a spirit, so we do not appear as having a spirit. At the Second Coming we put on the spirit and will appear as having on the spirit.

So we were created as a soul with a physical body and a spirit on over the physical body. Then Adam disobeyed God. He physically died and lost God's permanent physical body, and was given a temporal corruptible physical body of death. He also lost his spiritual part, that is spiritual death. Separated from the spirit.

So getting that permanent incorruptible physical body is part of the restoration back to being a son of God. The very reason why you interpret two different types of bodies in 2 Corinthians 5. One is of Adam, earthly. The other from God, spiritual. Both are still physical bodies.

You cannot use how sons of God were created on the 6th day. That no longer applies to Adam's descendants. Adam's disobedience changed everything.

"This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him..... And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth."

We are in Adam's dead image, not in God's image. Only physical death allows us back to the first resurrection into God's permanent incorruptible physical body. The permanent incorruptible physical body is what sons of God were created with. Adam's image is what is dead and returns to dust.

 

[ewq1938]

In... your opinion. Mine is otherwise.

No, not opinion. Yours contradicts the text. I have already explained in detail how this is.

The first resurrection is about spiritually resurrected people being killed, then physically being resurrected in the first of two resurrections.

You have spiritually dead people rejecting the beast and mark, being killed for that while being spiritually dead then somehow being spiritually resurrected and calling that nonsense the first resurrection.

That is not the correct understanding. You keep repeating "Mine is otherwise.", speaking of your view. I affirm it is "otherwise"...very much so.

 

[Timtofly]

Tim, all who were physically resurrected before the cross and resurrection are not the physically dead in the graves who shall be resurrected in an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds. Those physically resurrected before the first advent of Christ did not have part in the first resurrection before the resurrection of Christ. Because Christ is the resurrection and the life! The first born from the dead! Which is why in life we must partake of Him, for He is the first resurrection, and all who are born again in Him have overcome the second death, being faithful unto death faithful saints who have lived and reigned and shall reign with Christ in time, symbolized a thousand years.

Colossians 1:18 (KJV) And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Acts 26:23 (KJV) That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

1 Corinthians 15:20 (KJV) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Revelation 1:5 (KJV) And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Revelation 1:18 (KJV) I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Yes, God came in the flesh the firstborn of those dead in Adam's corruptible flesh. How does any of this change the fact that Lazarus was physically resurrected from the dead?

I already pointed out that because of Jesus' obedience, all the OT were physically resurrected from their graves. Then you claim they all just died again. The first resurrection is physical, and they ascended to Paradise, physically.

If Jesus was victorious over death, why do you keep insisting humanity remains in physical death? Physical death ended at the Cross, spiritual death (separated from the spirit) will be ended at the Second Coming.

 

[Timtofly]

The difference between a corruptible physical body and incorruptible physical body is that the incorruptible physical body shall also be immortal, it will NEVER die. I've never said the spirit is a physical body. I have repeatedly stated that man must have both a physical living body with a spirit to be a living soul. The physical body does not become a spiritual body! The physical body is destined to die and return to the earth! It is only the spirit in man, indwelt with the Holy Spirit from Christ that has eternal life when he/she is born again of the Spirit that will NEVER cease to have life. That's why after physical death when the spirit in man returns to God, it is only the spirit alive through the Spirit of Christ that in heaven becomes living spiritual body.

The point about being permanent means the same as "no death". But the soul cannot enter God's permanent incorruptible physical body, until the soul leaves Adam's corruptible dead flesh. They both deal with the physical body which deals with the first birth, death, and resurrection.

 

[PinSeeker]

No, not opinion.

It is your opinion.

Yours contradicts the text.

In... your opinion.

I have already explained in detail how this is.

According to your... opinion... regarding how it is to be correctly understood.

The first resurrection is about spiritually resurrected people being killed, then physically being resurrected in the first of two resurrections.

Nope. But, thanks for reiterating your... opinion. Even this one little statement is a discombobulation and conflation of several things.

You have spiritually dead people rejecting the beast and mark, being killed for that while being spiritually dead then somehow being spiritually resurrected and calling that nonsense the first resurrection.

Well now your discombobulating even what I've said and making it into something it's not. Hoo-boy...

That is not the correct understanding.

Well, yeah, but it's not my understanding anyway. So even your opinion regarding my opinion is wrong. Which is quite astounding.

You keep repeating "Mine is otherwise.", speaking of your view.

Because it is.

You keep repeating "Mine is otherwise.", speaking of your view.

Right, because it is.

I affirm it is "otherwise"...very much so.

Yes, otherwise regarding/to your... opinion. And that's a good thing... in my... opinion.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[ewq1938]

It is your opinion.


In... your opinion.


According to your... opinion... regarding how it is to be correctly understood.


Nope. But, thanks for reiterating your... opinion. Even this one little statement is a discombobulation and conflation of several things.


Well now your discombobulating even what I've said and making it into something it's not. Hoo-boy...


Well, yeah, but it's not my understanding anyway. So even your opinion regarding my opinion is wrong. Which is quite astounding.


Because it is.


Right, because it is.


Yes, otherwise regarding/to your... opinion. And that's a good thing... in my... opinion.

Grace and peace to you.

All you did is avoid dealing with the actual information supplied. That is evidence that you have no valid counter responses but I already knew that.