The folly of Preterism

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

MatthewG

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2021
14,194
4,957
113
33
Fyffe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Kingdom of God that is forever and increases every time a man/woman of faith dies is not physical but is spiritual and located with God in heaven. That's why Christ says the Kingdom of God NOW is not of this world, is not observable, and can only be understood and entered when one is born again of the Spirit within them. Though our physical body is ordained to die, the life we have through His Spirit in us NEVER dies. Because when the physical body of the man/woman of faith dies, the spirit within those of faith, through the Holy Spirit in us returns to God with eternal life even though our body is dead.

Yes that would be correct you build up your spiritual body by building on the cornerstone of Christ and the foundations of the apostles and build on spiritual principles which will go onward after this life will go be going with you and you will receive rewards and you also have treasures store there. The house given is the spiritual body, with its own glory.

Yes the kingdom is spiritual; and my consideration of information was if all men die on earth - how can anyone come to faith anymore? Meaning to enter into the kingdom of God. Everyone is dead.
 

Always Believing

Active Member
Aug 28, 2022
483
92
28
35
Cohocton
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The kingdom is still growing, and will do until the end (His coming), when it will be handed over to His Father. We are still ruling and reigning "in Christ."
And that day His saints will not only being ruling and reigning in Christ over their households, but also with Christ over all nations.

The spiritual reign in Christ now is prelude training to reigning with Christ with resurrected immortal bodies.


Here is a picture of the final judgment that occurs at the all-consummating return of Jesus. This comes after a long protracted period where their service would be accounted. This has not happened yet. This is still future!
True. It won't even be until after a thousand years of Christ's return.



The reference in this parable to the “nobleman” who “went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return” clearly relates to the Lord Jesus Christ and His ascension into heaven. This assumption is supported by the words of Christ at the end of this parable (in verse 27) when He personalizes the story of the ‘certain nobleman’ by saying, “those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.”
But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

Unbelievers of the world have never been the citizens of the Lord, until His return, when all nations will be citizens of His kingdom on earth.

His citizens that hated Him are them that rejected Him as His first coming.

And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.

He is speaking specifically of the Jews in Jerusalem, not of all people on the earth.

When you examine the record of each parallel you will see that they all conclude with the glorious climatic second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. That is when the general resurrection is. That is when the general judgment is. These are all related to the final event.

Someone's writing their own bible. The general last resurrection of both the good and the evil, is not for a thousand years after the first resurrection of all the blessed in Christ.
Does the Bible contradict itself? Why in places in the New Testament does it present the coming of the Lord as “at hand,” “near” or coming “quickly” or “shortly” while in other places it is presented as “after a long time”?
Because His coming is spiritual now unto salvation. His second coming will be at any time, or at a time another thousand years from now.

Preterists foolishly mock the blessed hope held by sincere Christians in regards to the Lord's literal physical visible return for His people.
If preterists are those saying the Lord has already come to earth a second time, and reject His physical return, then they are wrong.

He first came in mortal flesh and blood by a virgin, and He will come a second time with immortal flesh and bones by the air.

We haven’t seen the reward of the righteous and the reward of the wicked yet.
The dead certainly have, whether the wicked reward in hell, or the righteous reward in heaven.

And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.



He is still reigning over His enemies.
Really? Want to tell an Islamist that? None of them even acknowledge His reign and rule, much less submit it.

The Lord Jesus now having all power and authority over all things in heaven and earth, does not mean He is reigning over all things, such as the god of this world, and the enemies of God of this world.

To say He is 'reigning' now over His enemies, is nothing by a symbolic gesture that has no meaning.

The Lord does not reign over anyone symbolically.
 

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
5,425
2,204
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
And that day His saints will not only being ruling and reigning in Christ over their households, but also with Christ over all nations.

The spiritual reign in Christ now is prelude training to reigning with Christ with resurrected immortal bodies.



True. It won't even be until after a thousand years of Christ's return.




But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

Unbelievers of the world have never been the citizens of the Lord, until His return, when all nations will be citizens of His kingdom on earth.

His citizens that hated Him are them that rejected Him as His first coming.

And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.

He is speaking specifically of the Jews in Jerusalem, not of all people on the earth.



Someone's writing their own bible. The general last resurrection of both the good and the evil, is not for a thousand years after the first resurrection of all the blessed in Christ.

Because His coming is spiritual now unto salvation. His second coming will be at any time, or at a time another thousand years from now.


If preterists are those saying the Lord has already come to earth a second time, and reject His physical return, then they are wrong.

He first came in mortal flesh and blood by a virgin, and He will come a second time with immortal flesh and bones by the air.


The dead certainly have, whether the wicked reward in hell, or the righteous reward in heaven.

And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.




Really? Want to tell an Islamist that? None of them even acknowledge His reign and rule, much less submit it.

The Lord Jesus now having all power and authority over all things in heaven and earth, does not mean He is reigning over all things, such as the god of this world, and the enemies of God of this world.

To say He is 'reigning' now over His enemies, is nothing by a symbolic gesture that has no meaning.

The Lord does not reign over anyone symbolically.

You have no other support for your faulty interpretation of Rev 20. That is because Premil is unscriptural. Premils impose a private interpretation upon that much-debated passage. Corroboration is the greatest enemy of Premil.

Where are your 2 resurrection days separated by a thousand years mentioned elsewhere in Scripture?
Where are your 2 judgment days separated by a thousand years mentioned elsewhere in Scripture?

I will not hold my breath!
 

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
5,425
2,204
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This is your false accusation (above).

I do not "deny the literal climactic future return of Christ, which ushers in the general resurrection/judgment of the living and the dead and the introduction of the new perfect eternal state." (And you know what the scriptures say about faults witnesses.) It is not that I deny these things, but testify that the timing is not "future" for those like myself to whom Christ has already returned, according to what Paul also said is rather "but each one in his own order"--He has returned to me in the full glory of the Father.

In any case, your lack of understanding the full reality of these things does not make anyone a heretic. But it does make you an accuser.

Read what I wrote instead of constantly running your mouth off. It is you throwing false accusations. You deny a literal physical future return of Christ, placing you in the heretical camp. Where are your historic theological forefathers? All in the heretical camp. Sadly, you have no conviction about that. That is because you are comfortable there.
 

Always Believing

Active Member
Aug 28, 2022
483
92
28
35
Cohocton
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You have no other support for your faulty interpretation of Rev 20. That is because Premil is unscriptural. Premils impose a private interpretation upon that much-debated passage. Corroboration is the greatest enemy of Premil.

Where are your 2 resurrection days separated by a thousand years mentioned elsewhere in Scripture?
Where are your 2 judgment days separated by a thousand years mentioned elsewhere in Scripture?

I will not hold my breath!
I'm not teaching premil, but the Millennium of Christ.

I've challenged you on some of your teaching, and you come back with nothing to say for it.

Your preterist challenge is good, but some of your stuff goes against the Millennium of Christ on earth.

And if this is how you react, then I think I'll take a look at some of the rest of your stuff, and correct that too if necessary.
 

Always Believing

Active Member
Aug 28, 2022
483
92
28
35
Cohocton
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
A thousand years is simply a simile for a long period of time.
6 consecutive similes in 6 consecutive verse of the Bible? Someone's got to must simile on the brain.

The figure "a thousand" is used repeatedly in Scripture to mean a long period of time or a large amount. Revelation is no different Revelation is saturated in figurative language and symbolic numerology.
With this amount of making prophecy nothing but symbols, then why not also the Lord's second coming, which is specifically for Him to judge and inherit all nations to rule over.

Picking and choose what prophecy is real and what is not, is a sure sign of injecting one's own prophecy into the Bible.

I don't agree with your prophecy.

This same sense can be found in the usage of “one hour” in Revelation 17:12 where the beast is said to reign with the “ten kings” “one hour.” Is this describing a literal sixty minutes period? Of course not!
So says you according to your false prophecy.

He cast Satan out of heaven and then restrained him with spiritual chains so that the Gospel could enlighten the nations.
If you're saying Satan is now shut up in the pit of hell, then why is he still roaming about as a roaring lion, and is still the god of this world, and prince and power of the air, and still tempting men to sin, so that he still needs to be resisted?

If your prophecy is correct, then the apostles writing of the devil being and doing these things, are false.

The first resurrection opened up the Gospel to the nations!
Well, now we can say that you are teaching a heresy, that the resurrection is past, which Paul had to rebuke:

Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

And since you are teaching the heresy, then your faith must also be overthrown. I've always wondered how any Christian could possibly think the resurrection is past, while still on earth, and how it overthrows their faith. False teaching and prophecy would be an example of that.


We should note in this passage, the enlightening of the Gentiles (or) ethnos is carefully connected to the first resurrection of Christ.
Christ will be resurrected again? Enlightening all nations begins with the one and only resurrection of Jesus Christ. His resurrection is the first resurrection of any man from the dead. His church's dead bodies haven't been resurrected, nor have them alive and remaining been instantly changed to immortal bodies, nor have they met with the Lord in the air.

At least, I hope not. ;)

The general broad deception that engulfed the Gentiles in ignorance and darkness is lifted.
Don't forget the unbelieving Jews, who were even more guilty than ignorant Gentiles.

Revelation 20 finishes at the coming of Christ and the one-and-only general resurrection/judgment of all mankind.
That would be the first resurrection, which you say has already past. The idea of the first resurrection being the general resurrection of Dan 12, has already been corrected. First the first resurrection, and then after the thousand years expire, the rest of the dead are raised to judgment.

How does a simile 'expire'? Since it never existed in the first place? :contemplate:

When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

If the thousand years of Christ's Millennium is only simile, then so was Jesus' time of death on the cross.

Someone has way way too much simile on the brain.

First the first resurrection is past, and now the suffering of Jesus on the cross is only simile.

This all negates the Preterist paradigm that is fixated with the coming of Titus in AD70. It negates the Preterist view that the second coming occurred in AD70.
True. If you stick to rebuking preterism, you're doing good. Otherwise you make yourself a false prophet teaching heresy, that Paul long ago rebuked.
 

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
10,849
3,271
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Calling my teaching "False Teaching" is immature and not worthy of a mature saint of God. My beliefs are representative of Christian belief, of the doctrinally-orthodox variety, throughout Christian history. Name-calling and malicious slander does not sit well with me, nor should it. Discussion of differences can be done in a responsible, friendly, brotherly way. You've never chosen to do that. Why?

I don't believe you're intellectually incapable of understanding the argument. I believe you're choosing to be contentious, stirring up division between brothers--something the NT Scriptures warned against.

For the sake of those who are able to reason through this, whatever their position, I'll reiterate my position on this. At the 2nd Coming, death is defeated on behalf of the Church of the present age, and on behalf of all saints in the past. This has nothing to do with what Rev 20 speaks of with respect to an inferred "2nd Resurrection," to take place on behalf of mortals who die during the Millennial Age.

The fact some have not yet experienced glorification in the Millennium does *not* mean death has not been substantially defeated at Christ's Coming. The resurrection of many millions of believers from all of history is in fact a defeat of Death! The continuation of mortal history, requiring a further defeat of death in the future, does not contradict this.

Don't bother to respond unless you're willing to discuss like Christians should discuss things.
1 Corinthians Chapter 15 is clear, simple, easy to understand

When Jesus Christ returns the resurrection takes place, mortal becomes immortal, the last enemy death is swallowed up in victory

The last enemy death is "Satan" that will be cast into the lake of fire at the final judgement (The End)

Your claim that Jesus hands over this world is false, he hands over his kingdom to the father it's the end, eternity begins as seen in 1 Corinthians chapter 15

Randy every opposing scripture you interpret in eschatology is to falsely maintain your desired Millennial Kingdom on this earth, bend, twist, and tear

You don't want to see the last enemy death destroyed in 1 Corinthians 15 (Then Cometh The End)

Jesus Is The Lord
 

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
5,425
2,204
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
  1. I'm not teaching premil, but the Millennium of Christ.

I've challenged you on some of your teaching, and you come back with nothing to say for it.

Your preterist challenge is good, but some of your stuff goes against the Millennium of Christ on earth.

And if this is how you react, then I think I'll take a look at some of the rest of your stuff, and correct that too if necessary.

You avoided my 2 questions:
  1. Where are your 2 resurrection days separated by a thousand years mentioned elsewhere in Scripture?
  2. Where are your 2 judgment days separated by a thousand years mentioned elsewhere in Scripture?
 

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
5,425
2,204
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
6 consecutive similes in 6 consecutive verse of the Bible? Someone's got to must simile on the brain.

With this amount of making prophecy nothing but symbols, then why not also the Lord's second coming, which is specifically for Him to judge and inherit all nations to rule over.

Picking and choose what prophecy is real and what is not, is a sure sign of injecting one's own prophecy into the Bible.

I don't agree with your prophecy.

LOL. I don't care one bit whether you agree with my prophetic position or not. If you cannot see that Revelation is saturated in symbolism then you are more blinkered in your Premil than I suspected. The theology you attribute to Rev 20 is untenable and uncorroborative. It is private interpretation.

The term "a thousand" is used in most languages in a general figurative sense to represent a large number or a large indefinite period. Certain common numbers are frequently used in Scripture as valuable symbols to represent particular divine truths or ideas; a thousand and ten thousand are two such numbers. They are employed as familiar figures to impress deep spiritual principles in a distinctly comprehendible and identifiable way. It is not necessarily the exact numerical size of the figure outlined that is important but the spiritual idea that it represents. In fact, English dictionaries recognize the indefinite nature of a thousand defining it variously as a very large number or a great number or amount. This use is very common in our daily language.

One and a thousand are brought together in a metaphorical sense in Psalm 84:9-10 to represent a similar illustrative thought as that of Deuteronomy 32:30. Using a comparable idea, although applying it to a specific measure of time, we learn, “Behold, O God our shield, and look upon the face of thine anointed. For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness.”

Comparing ‘one’ to ‘a thousand’ is common in Scripture; however, it is not simply a concept that is narrowly restricted to the subject of time, or exact time at that. This figurative statement in essence asserts that a day in the Lord’s presence is more blessed than untold ordinary ones outside of such. It in no way indicates that one (twenty-four hour) day in God’s presence exactly represents one thousand days elsewhere, such a limit would be an unfair restriction upon the meaning intended. Such a literal interpretation is at clear variance with the undoubted general usage of the phrase in Scripture and the specific import of the reading under analysis.

The figure a thousand is also employed in Psalm 50:10-11 to denote the greatness of God’s providence, saying, “For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine.”

Does Christ only own the cattle on one thousand hills or does he own them all? Of course there is no way that this passage suggests that Christ only owns the cattle on one thousand hills. Rather, He owns every beast on every hill, thus revealing His omnipotence. The statement reference the “thousand hills” is preceded y the introductory comment: “For every beast of the forest is mine.” This is simply presented in such a way as to express the unfathomable authority and power of the living God. It beautifully correlates with the truth expressed in 1 Corinthians 10:28, which states, “the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.”

The term “a thousand” is thus used to in some way express the nature and awesome power of Almighty God. The phrase is used to portray the Sovereignty of God and His supreme kingship over all creation. We must clearly acknowledge that the figure ‘a thousand’ is consistently and symbolically employed, throughout the Word of God, to denote an unfathomable amount or a vast period.

Even the figurative every-day statement ‘one in a thousand’ has emanated from the fountainhead of Scripture. It is found in Ecclesiastes 7:27-28 where Solomon laments, “one man among a thousand have I found; but a woman among all those have I not found. Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.”

Solomon laments over the fact that he barely found any upright man in his travels. They were the exception rather than the rule. The thought here intended is that the man under consideration is of a particular choice character, being, as it where, the pick-of-the-bunch. The usage of the numbers one and a thousand is thus employed to represent a particular truth rather than specifically describing an accurate numerical equation.

In the same vein, Job 33:23 declares, “If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness.” The same two common numbers are used here in the form of a contrast to simply portray the picture of a special vessel. Again, it is not the numbers that are important but the idea they represent.

As we have already discovered in our studies, the same kind of function is repeatedly afforded to the use of the term ‘ten thousand’ as is ‘a thousand’ in Scripture. It is often used in the same context and in the same way as a symbol to represent an immense figure. Thus, the Song of Solomon 5:10 declares, “My beloved is white and ruddy, the chiefest among ten thousand.”

Ten thousand is here used to, in some way, portray the deep-rooted emotions that a man feels towards his sweetheart. The usage of the number ‘ten thousand’ thus indicates the idea of the deep affection of the man rather than specifically describing an exact numerical computation.

The same idea is presented in 2 Samuel 18:2-3 where David is seen preparing for battle. He tells the people, “I will surely go forth with you myself also.” To which the people responded, “Thou shalt not go forth: for if we flee away, they will not care for us; neither if half of us die, will they care for us: but now thou art worth ten thousand of us: therefore now it is better that thou succour us out of the city.”

Jesus employs the number ten thousand as a general figure in Luke 14:31 to relate the necessity of wisdom, asking, “what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with TWENTY THOUSAND?”

The distinct contrast between one and a thousand is again found in Job 9:2-3, where Job declares, “I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand.”

This passage is contrasting the infinite knowledge of God to the finite knowledge of God. This language is stating the enormous depth of God's understanding rather than limiting God to the capacity to only answer a thousand questions.

The same idea is intended in Isaiah 60:21-22, where the prophet instructs, in relation to the New Earth, “Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the Lord will hasten it in his time.”

This passage is expressed in such a manner to in some way describe the great standing, wealth and supernatural power that is found in them that are God’s. God magnifies them in such a manner that the world cannot remotely comprehend. The expressions thus indicate magnitude:

A little one = a thousand
A small one = a strong nation
 
Last edited:

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
5,425
2,204
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
6 consecutive similes in 6 consecutive verse of the Bible? Someone's got to must simile on the brain.


With this amount of making prophecy nothing but symbols, then why not also the Lord's second coming, which is specifically for Him to judge and inherit all nations to rule over.

Picking and choose what prophecy is real and what is not, is a sure sign of injecting one's own prophecy into the Bible.

I don't agree with your prophecy.

Paul the Apostle uses the figure ‘ten thousand’ in 1 Corinthians 4:15 to impress a spiritual truth, saying, “For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.” Paul uses the figure ten thousand as a common round figure to represent a specific truth. What he was basically saying was ‘though ye have numerous instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers’

Paul uses the same principle in 1 Corinthians 14:19 to advocate wisdom in relation to the exercise of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, saying, “in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.” Paul here uses the large even figure ten thousand to impress an important truth. He instructs the Corinthians that it is better to speak a little in a tongue that is understood than to speak numerous words in an unknown tongue that are not understood.

The Lord also uses this same figure, in Matthew 18:23-27, to represent the idea of a vast amount, saying, “Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.”

Matthew Henry explains that ten thousand talents represents about 60 million denarii; a denarius of which was a day’s wages. The Lord therefore advances this parable to represent the vastness of our debt to God and our complete incapability of paying it ourselves. Matthew Henry succinctly says, “The debt of sin is so great, we are not able to pay it.”

Micah asks a question in Micah 6:7, which he then answers in verse 8:

Q.Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?”

A. “He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?”

Isaiah asks a similar question in Isaiah 1:11, only he substitutes the terms “thousands” and “ten thousands” with the word multitude, asking, "To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.” Notwithstanding, both are expressing the same thought.

What the Lord required in these two instances, as he still does today, was NOT multiple physical external sacrifices but rather real true personal spiritual internal sacrifices. The terms “thousands” and “ten thousands” in Micah therefore figuratively represents ‘many’ or ‘numerous’ or, in agreement with Isaiah, ‘multiple’.

The number a thousand is also figuratively used in Amos 5:2-4 to prophetically describe the judgment which awaited the rebellious house of natural Israel. Again, it does not denote a literal figure but rather the type, degree and enormity of judgment that would befall Israel. Amos 5:1-4 says, “The virgin of Israel is fallen; she shall no more rise: she is forsaken upon her land; there is none to raise her up. For thus saith the Lord GOD; The city that went out by a thousand shall leave AN HUNDRED , and that which went forth by AN HUNDRED shall leave TEN, to the house of Israel.”

Such numbers are occasionally used in Scripture to symbolize and emphasize the magnification or the minimising of specific Divine blessings or judgment s. The descending multiples of 1,000, 100 and 10 are employed here as symbols or figures to signify an impending reality, rather than representing any precise numerical prediction. Such popular numbers are purposely chosen to, in some way, impress the considerable degree of judgment approaching. The figure ‘a thousand’ here (like the other two numbers) is thus a common figure used to describe the serious impending wrath.

The reverse idea is also employed in ascending scale to describe spiritual principles / ideas and Divine truth throughout Scripture. This is seen in the round figures of 1,000, 10,000 and 144,000. They are used as common and complete numbers and carry an undoubted symbolic usage.

Finally, we see the glorious statement in Jude 1:14-15, which speaks of that glorious all-consummating final future Advent, saying, “And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

Here, we can determine NO specific number, only acknowledge that the term describes untold myriads of God’s blessed saints.[/COLOR]
 
Last edited:

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
5,425
2,204
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If you're saying Satan is now shut up in the pit of hell, then why is he still roaming about as a roaring lion, and is still the god of this world, and prince and power of the air, and still tempting men to sin, so that he still needs to be resisted?

If your prophecy is correct, then the apostles writing of the devil being and doing these things, are false.

• Premil has a big devil and a small God.
• Premil has a big devil and an impotent powerless Church.

Amils have the opposite. They have a conquering Christ who has empowered the Church to invade Satan’s territory and see him defeated everywhere the light of the Gospel is received throughout the nations.

Your defeatist theology is an awful slight on Christ and what He achieved through His sinless life, His atoning death and His glorious resurrection.

With the coming of Christ to this earth came the introduction of His spiritual kingdom. With the introduction of His spiritual kingdom came a direct challenge to the power and influence of Satan on planet earth. With the direct challenge to the power and influence of Satan on planet earth came the spiritual empowerment of the people of God to confront and overcome Satan and his demonic angels.

Wherever the Church advances, the work of Satan is bound!!!

Premils avoid the most important resurrection to let their opinion fit. There is one literal first resurrection where Christ defeated the grave. The Bible makes it clear that Christ is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5).

Since this, Revelation 20 describes the defeat and binding (or curtailment) of Satan for the expressed purpose of the Gospel invading the nations and removing the deception that blinded the Gentiles before Christ's first resurrection. When Satan was bound through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ then the kingdom of darkness was bound (including the beast and every demon). 2 Peter 2:4, Jude v 6, Revelation 9 and Revelation 20 all prove the whole demonic realm is currently restrained from stopping the free-flow of the Gospel. The bruising of the head of the beast (Revelation 13:3, 13:12 and 13:14) correlates with the bruising of the head of Satan 2,000 years ago through the earthly ministry of Christ (Genesis 3:15). They correspond with the spiritual binding imprisoning of Satan during the millennial period. These are figurative metaphors describing the impairment of the kingdom of darkness 2000 years ago.

Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.
 
Last edited:
  • Love
Reactions: rwb

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
5,425
2,204
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Well, now we can say that you are teaching a heresy, that the resurrection is past, which Paul had to rebuke:

Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

And since you are teaching the heresy, then your faith must also be overthrown. I've always wondered how any Christian could possibly think the resurrection is past, while still on earth, and how it overthrows their faith. False teaching and prophecy would be an example of that.

Wow! You now deny the physical resurrection of Christ. It is you that is the heretic then! Sad! Amils strongly believe that Jesus rose from the dead on the 3rd day. The grave has been conquered. God's people who die go straight to be with Jesus. Hades was emptied after the first resurrection. Jesus defeated sin, death, Hades and Satan through his first Advent. The dead in Christ are in glory today. They are reigning with Christ.

Who is "the first resurrection" in Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6?
Who is "the firstborn from the dead" in Colossians 1:18?
Who is "the firstfruits of them that slept" in 1 Corinthians 15:20?
Who is "first begotten of the dead" in Revelation 1:5?

True. If you stick to rebuking preterism, you're doing good. Otherwise you make yourself a false prophet teaching heresy, that Paul long ago rebuked.

You really talk some nonsense at times. It is truly hard to take your writings serious.
 
Last edited:

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
10,849
3,271
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Since this, Revelation 20 describes the defeat and binding (or curtailment) of Satan for the expressed purpose of the Gospel invading the nations and removing the deception that blinded the Gentiles before Christ's first resurrection.
"FALSE" Satan's binding has absolutely nothing to do with the death, and resurrection of Jesus or preaching the gospel as reformed preterist eschatology claims

Satan is "Currently" bound from "One Specific Purpose", And One Only?

"Deceive The Nations" To Battle

The Non-Literal 1,000 Years (Revelation) 20:1-6 Are Taking Place Now In The Lords Spiritual, And Will Cease At The Future Second Coming

If A Tribulation Saint Were To Die One Day Before The Second Coming, He Enters Into The Non-Literal 1,000 Year Reign

Many That Promote Millennialism Falsely Teach, Satan Cant Be Presently Bound Because Evil Exist In The World?

Satan Is Presently Bound As Is Clearly Seen In (Revelation) 20:7-8 Below That Interprets (Deceive The Nations) Is To Battle, Not General Evil In The World Presently.

Satan Is Loosed At The End Of The Tribulation When The 6th Vial Is Poured Out As Seen In (Revelation) 16:12, The Deception Is Devils In False Miracles Going Forth To The Kings Of The Earth, To Gather Them To The Final Battle

(Revelation) 20:1-9KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations
which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

(Revelation) 16:12-14 & (Revelation) 20:7-8 Same Deception In Gathering The Nations To The Very Same Final Battle In "Parallel" Teachings Of The Same Event

(Revelation) 16:12-17KJV
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
 
Last edited:

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
10,849
3,271
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The fact some have not yet experienced glorification in the Millennium does *not* mean death has not been substantially defeated at Christ's Coming. The resurrection of many millions of believers from all of history is in fact a defeat of Death!
Bend, Twist, Tear, God's words of truth,, in desperate attempts to Maintain a man made Millennial Kingdom on this earth that will never take place

1 Corinthians Chapter 15 Is (The Last Day)
as you falsely teach mortal life on earth continues "After" this,100% "False"

There are (Two) resurrections on the (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second Death) resurrection has no power.

1.) (First Resurrection) To Life
2.) (Second Death) Resurrection To Damnation

Revelation 20:6KJV
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

Daniel 12:1-2KJV
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth;
they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing,
but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end,
when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
 
Last edited:

rwb

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
3,362
1,444
113
72
Branson
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You are under the wrong impression, not understanding...as if God and the things of God were actually on the same created timeline of men and this world. They are not.

Therefore, it is written that we "were" crucified with Christ, and He "was" slain before the foundation of the world (past tense). But these things were not to be fully known until the time of the end by the Holy Spirit's leading unto all truth before the sounding of the seventh angel...and yet it was to come, and has come.

Even so, Hebrews 11:32-40 was to the "Hebrews"...who's forefathers would have all died before salvation had come, and therefore "did not receive the promise" in their lifetime. These are referred to as "the dead in Christ", who were "in Christ" of whom He was "the Last", and were crucified and raised up with Him. Thus, it is also written of them that we "by no means precede those who are asleep", for they even preceded Christ.

Explain "who's forefathers would have all died before salvation had come"? The faithful of old were saved by grace through faith in the Gospel in the same way believers after the cross and resurrection are saved. The faithful saints of old Paul referred to as "the dead in Christ". Since they slept (already died before His coming) "in Christ" after His resurrection they too were resurrected a spiritual body (1Cor 15:44-46) and ascended with Christ to heaven as spiritually living souls (Rev 20:4).

Matthew 27:52-53 (KJV) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

The promise of life even after death on the new earth, these saints of old would not receive until the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is complete, is physical immortal, and incorruptible life upon the new earth with Christ forevermore. This shall not be until the last trumpet begins to sound and the mortal body of the saints shall put on immortality and incorruption, when time given this earth shall be no longer. (1Cor 15:51-54; Rev 10:5-7)

Isaiah 65:17-18 (KJV) For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

Revelation 21:1-4 (KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Not you or anyone else shall be made perfect until the fullness of the Gentiles has come into the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven as the Gospel is proclaimed unto all the nations of the world. The fullness of the promise long awaited for does not come one by one as you seem to imagine. That which happens one by one comes by grace through faith as the Gospel is proclaimed and man turns from darkness and death to the Light and Life that comes through Christ by His Spirit in us.

Romans 10:16-21 (KJV) But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
 

rwb

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
3,362
1,444
113
72
Branson
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes that would be correct you build up your spiritual body by building on the cornerstone of Christ and the foundations of the apostles and build on spiritual principles which will go onward after this life will go be going with you and you will receive rewards and you also have treasures store there. The house given is the spiritual body, with its own glory.

Yes the kingdom is spiritual; and my consideration of information was if all men die on earth - how can anyone come to faith anymore? Meaning to enter into the kingdom of God. Everyone is dead.

The Kingdom of God NOW is spiritual and is being built and will be complete as the Gospel is proclaimed unto all the nations of the world. Whosoever by grace through faith hears the Gospel of Christ and believes has spiritually entered the Kingdom of God. Every human is appointed to physical death (die once). If one physically dies without the Spirit of Christ in them, who gives them eternal spiritual life, then they have not overcome the second death that is the lake of fire that will be for every human that has not partaken of Christ's resurrection life while still living.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Truth7t7 and WPM

MatthewG

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2021
14,194
4,957
113
33
Fyffe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Timotheus the brother, to the saints in Colossae, and to the faithful brethren in Christ: Grace to you, and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ! And you — once being alienated, and enemies in the mind, in the evil works, yet now did he reconcile, in the body of his flesh through the death, to present you holy, and unblemished, and unblameable before himself, if also ye remain in the faith, being founded and settled, and not moved away from the hope of the good news, which ye heard, which was preached in all the creation that [is] under the heaven, of which I became — I Paul — a ministrant.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1‬:‭1‬-‭2‬, ‭21‬-‭23‬ ‭YLT98‬‬
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,744
5,599
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Read what I wrote instead of constantly running your mouth off. It is you throwing false accusations. You deny a literal physical future return of Christ, placing you in the heretical camp. Where are your historic theological forefathers? All in the heretical camp. Sadly, you have no conviction about that. That is because you are comfortable there.
You do not know what you say, nor what is written, only how you have wrongly understood it.

As for my forefathers, if you knew me by name you would not speak as you do. That was your last chance.
 

MatthewG

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2021
14,194
4,957
113
33
Fyffe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Kingdom of God NOW is spiritual and is being built and will be complete as the Gospel is proclaimed unto all the nations of the world. Whosoever by grace through faith hears the Gospel of Christ and believes has spiritually entered the Kingdom of God. Every human is appointed to physical death (die once). If one physically dies without the Spirit of Christ in them, who gives them eternal spiritual life, then they have not overcome the second death that is the lake of fire that will be for every human that has not partaken of Christ's resurrection life while still living.

All that is known to me is that, perhaps the lake of fire is for a purgative restoration in finding Christ refining fire. It’s may come where God is in the heavenly Jerusalem. It’s a fire that perhaps can consume all the evil out of the heart of another in subjective reality to accept the Lord; or; decline the offer and decide to continue life outside of the kingdom as I believe Jesus had the keys to all death.

No to people really agree with this of course as you would see the implications of the hope for the God who is a Good God and a giver of good gifts has some way to justify himself for what he is capable doing compared to our own limited thoughts.
 

rwb

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
3,362
1,444
113
72
Branson
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
All that is known to me is that, perhaps the lake of fire is for a purgative restoration in finding Christ refining fire. It’s may come where God is in the heavenly Jerusalem. It’s a fire that perhaps can consume all the evil out of the heart of another in subjective reality to accept the Lord; or; decline the offer and decide to continue life outside of the kingdom as I believe Jesus had the keys to all death.

No to people really agree with this of course as you would see the implications of the hope for the God who is a Good God and a giver of good gifts has some way to justify himself for what he is capable doing compared to our own limited thoughts.

Sorry! I don't have a clue about what the heck you are talking about?