The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics.

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WPM

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You double down on the false association of heretics with true Christianity.



Still doubling down on the false association of heretics with Premill Christianity?

Gennadius of Massilia? Could you post a link to his writing on this? However, living in the time that he did, he would certainly be part of the attack on Premillennialism, associating it falsely with Cerinthus'-type materialistic luxury.



Heretics certainly would depict the prevalent Premill in a carnal way. None of this indicates that they invented Premillennial views.

This is worse than no proof at all. It is a slanderous form of "guilt by association." Because Premills believed there will be some luxury in the Millennium, and heretics also taught this, therefore Premills follow heretics who you say invented their beliefs. Not!

Millennial luxury was invented by God, who inspired the Prophets to say, "the wolf will lie with the lamb." Isa 11.6.

Where does Isaiah 11.6 mention a millennium never mind "millennial luxury"?
 
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WPM

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You double down on the false association of heretics with true Christianity.



Still doubling down on the false association of heretics with Premill Christianity?

Gennadius of Massilia? Could you post a link to his writing on this? However, living in the time that he did, he would certainly be part of the attack on Premillennialism, associating it falsely with Cerinthus'-type materialistic luxury.



Heretics certainly would depict the prevalent Premill in a carnal way. None of this indicates that they invented Premillennial views.

This is worse than no proof at all. It is a slanderous form of "guilt by association." Because Premills believed there will be some luxury in the Millennium, and heretics also taught this, therefore Premills follow heretics who you say invented their beliefs. Not!

Millennial luxury was invented by God, who inspired the Prophets to say, "the wolf will lie with the lamb." Isa 11.6.

Apollinarius of Laodicea

Apollinarius took up the ancient Premillennial baton from these early heretics. Notably, he too was a prominent heretic who was strongly opposed and renounced by the universal Church of his day. Very little of what he wrote has been passed down to us. Most of it was destroyed as heretical. Most of what we have comes from his theological opponents who were strong in their renunciations.

Gregory, Bishop of Nyssa said of Apollinarius of Laodicea, that his theology taught that “the Jewish animal-sacrifices shall be restored” (Dogmatic Treatises, Etc.; Letter XVII – To Eustathia).

Basil the Great describes what Apollinarius believed

Apollinarius [of Laodicea], who is no less a cause of sorrow to the Churches. With his facility of writing, and a tongue ready to argue on any subject, he has filled the world with his works ... What he writes on theology is not founded on Scripture, but on human reasonings. He has written about the resurrection, from a mythical, or rather Jewish, point of view; urging that we shall return again to the worship of the Law, be circumcised, keep the Sabbath, abstain from meats, offer sacrifices to God, worship in the Temple at Jerusalem, and be altogether turned from Christians into Jews. What could be more ridiculous? Or, rather, what could be more contrary to the doctrines of the Gospel? (Letters and Select Works: Letter 263, 4 - To the Westerns).​

Here is an outline of classic Premillennial teaching. Again, noticeably, this was held by an early heretic who was strongly resisted by the orthodox Christian Church. This was foreign teaching to them in the light of what Christ ushered in through the new covenant. Apollinarius taught that Israel would be restored to her previous old covenant place for preference over all other nations.

But, most troubling to the early writers, was the early Premillennial promotion of the full reinstitution of the redundant old covenant arrangement with its multiple additional sin offerings to atone for the sins of man in the future. This was despite the well-established beliefs of the Patristic writers that the New Testament Scripture makes clear that Christ was the final sacrifice for sin (Romans 6:10, Hebrews 7:27, 9:12, 28, 10:10, 12, 14 and 1 Peter 3:18) and that there are no more offerings for sin (Hebrews 9:26, 10:18, 26 and 1 John 3:5).

Apollinarianism was condemned by a council at Alexandria in 362 A.D. at Roman councils in 377 A.D. and 378 A.D. In the second Ecumenical Council and the First Council of Constantinople in 381 AD the Church leaders renounced Apollinarius as a heretic. He is actually repudiated by name in Canon 1 and Canon 7. Along with his other fellow heretics he was to be “anathematized.”

Gregory the Theologian also criticized Apollinarius in his letter to Cledonius the Priest Against Apollinarius (Epistle CI. (101), highlighting his Premillennial beliefs.

I would they were even cut off that trouble you, and would reintroduce a second Judaism, and a second circumcision, and a second system of sacrifices. For if this be done, what hinders Christ also being born again to set them aside, and again being betrayed by Judas, and crucified and buried, and rising again, that all may be fulfilled in the same order, like the Greek system of cycles, in which the same revolutions of the stars bring round the same events.​

Jerome targets the theology of the early Premillennial heretics, mentioning Apollinaris in particular in his renunciation:

Dionysius the bishop of the church of Alexandria, wrote a fine book mocking the tale of the millennium, as well as the golden and bejeweled earthly Jerusalem, the restoration of the temple, the blood of sacrifices, the idleness of the sabbath, the injury of circumcision, nuptials, child birth, child-rearing, the delights of feasting, and the servitude of all nations, and once again wars, armies, and triumphs, and the slaughter of the vanquished, and the death of the hundred-year-old sinner. Apollinaris responded to him in two volumes, and he is followed not only by men of his own sect, but also by a great multitude of our own, at least in this matter, so that I already perceive with foreboding that the anger of many will be aroused against me (Commentary to Isaiah, Preface to Book 18).​

For Jerome, the Premillennial scheme was “a tale.” Others would similarly call it “a fable.” The idea of a future age in-between “this age” and “the age to come” was quite fanciful to many of the early Amil writers. When the detail of the heretical Premillennialist heretics were threw into the mix, with their expectation of more ongoing sin, more decay, more sickness, more death, more sin offerings, etc, etc, it was hardly surprising that many found this far-fetched. When you add all the religious actors that populate the millennium and give their feigned allegiance to Christ and then turn on Him when Satan appears 1000 years after the second coming, then you are looking at a doctrine that seems beyond the pale of reality and truth. When they then argued that a future earth will see the mortal wicked interact with the glorified saints for a thousand years then you are looking at a clear non-corroborative doctrine.

In an article Jerome’s Judaizers, Hillel I. Newman argues: “So far as we know, none of these authors maintained hopefully that in the millennial kingdom all would offer sacrifices and keep the sabbath and that all men would be circumcised.”

Premil Lyford Paterson Edwards even concedes: “we see the unfortunate fate of Chiliasm in getting mixed up with heresies with which it, as such, had nothing to do. The extraordinary detestation which overtook Apollinaris as arch-heretic par excellence seems to have finally discouraged Chiliasm in the Eastern Church. It was reckoned as a heresy thereafter and though it appears sporadically down to our own day it is of no more interest for our purpose” (The Transformation of Early Christianity from an Eschatological to a Socialized Movement).

The later Jacobite bishop of Dara, in Mesopotamia (d. 845), John of Dara exposes Apollonarius for his millennialist teaching:

Apollonarius the heretic, with his companions, abandoned the glorious illumination of the living words and became blind to the faith like the Jews. He dared to speak, like the Pharisees, that after the resurrection of the dead, we shall live again for a thousand years in Jerusalem with the Messiah, with bodily pleasures, and childish sacrifices, and earthly libations before him [the Messiah?]. After these things are fulfilled, at that time we shall be taken up into heaven. And he was not shamed by the voice of Paul who said, “The kingdom of God is not of eating or drinking. But of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.” Also in like manner Irenaeus bishop of Lyon in Gaul wandered in these matters, which are in the book of Papias as Eusebius narrates (On the Resurrection of Bodies 2.13).​

John of Dara likens Apollonarius’ Premillennialism to Phariseeism. He rubbishes the idea of Judaic temple ceremonial in Jerusalem for a thousand years in front of the Messiah.

These ancient heretical Premillennialists fell into the same trap as the Pharisees with their faulty hyper-literal mind-set, who because of such, ended up crucifying Christ. The problem was, they were stuck in the Old Testament, fixated with the earthly, physical, temporal and the natural. These ancient writers focused in on Israel and a temporal future earthly kingdom full of warfare, carnal pleasures and ethnic separation. They promise a continuation of pain, sin, death, suffering, tears, hatred, war, funerals. This whole carnal expectation seems to blue the reason why the second coming is so splendid. It is the final return of Christ in all power and glory to abolish all unrighteousness and to set up a perfect, just and eternal kingdom where wickedness and corruption are forbidden.
 
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WPM

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You double down on the false association of heretics with true Christianity.



Still doubling down on the false association of heretics with Premill Christianity?

Gennadius of Massilia? Could you post a link to his writing on this? However, living in the time that he did, he would certainly be part of the attack on Premillennialism, associating it falsely with Cerinthus'-type materialistic luxury.



Heretics certainly would depict the prevalent Premill in a carnal way. None of this indicates that they invented Premillennial views.

This is worse than no proof at all. It is a slanderous form of "guilt by association." Because Premills believed there will be some luxury in the Millennium, and heretics also taught this, therefore Premills follow heretics who you say invented their beliefs. Not!

Millennial luxury was invented by God, who inspired the Prophets to say, "the wolf will lie with the lamb." Isa 11.6.

Whilst the views expressed by these early heretical Premillennialists is all widely-accepted standard Premillennialist beliefs today, none of the early Chiliasts taught these. In fact, it seems like the early Chiliasts distanced themselves especially from these spurious imposters. Notably, nowhere is it taught in New Testament Scriptures. Nowhere can it be found in Revelation 20. It was an early heterodox innovation derived by apostate Judaism that ran contrary to New Testament Christianity and early Church theology.

What would be the purpose of reinstituting animal sacrifices in the future? After all, the old sacrificial system simply served as an imperfect type that foreshadowed Christ and pointed to His ultimate sacrifice for sin at the cross. Jesus was the final sacrifice for sin. He was the eternal fulfillment of every type and shadow in the Old Testament. Anyway, since God destroyed the temple, Israel can no longer administer these unsatisfactory ordinances. They were effectively and finally nailed to the cross in the death of Christ.

The whole Judaic blood sacrifice system was rendered redundant through Calvary. It has no further purpose. Why would we need further sin offerings (and that is exactly what they are)? The old covenant "ceremonial use" was for a purpose to atone for sin and cover it until the cross. It is this "ceremonial use" that you speak of? How could the slaughter of animals be pleasing onto God today or in the future? They can't. Christ's once perfectly satisfied all the elevated demands of God for a final offering for sin. What exactly does it do to sin in a supposed future millennium? I am truly at a loss to see what you think its useful purpose is.

William Rounseville Alger comments: “The doctrine itself is a Jewish-Christian figment supported only by a shadowy basis of fancy.” (The Destiny of the Soul).

Dr. Mike Stallard explains: “it must be admitted that although elements of Jewish chiliasm exist in the early Church and show the ability to persevere even into the early Middle Ages, the references to them are often secondary. Finding hard evidence is often like searching for echoes in the wrong canyon … Most of the writings we have from the early post-canonical days will affirm at times the city of Jerusalem in the last days but not the national restoration of Israel and the rebuilding of a temple, probably the two most important elements of a Jewish chiliasm … national Israel was no longer a player in God’s eschatological promises. Either by reinterpretation of prophetic texts or forfeiture of the promises due to sin, it became increasingly difficult to affirm any Jewish elements within chiliastic hopes and eventually impossible in the minds of most Christians to affirm any chiliastic hopes at all” (The Shift from Jewish Chiliasm to Christian Chiliasm in the Early Church).
 

Davy

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No such thing as a Millennial Kingdom on this earth found in scripture, it's a fabricated fairy tale of man as post #14 & #16 above clearly shows

The "thousand years" of Revelation 20 is about Christ's future 'MILLENNIAL' Kingdom reign with His faithful elect. It is pointed to in many Old Testament and New Testament Scriptures.
 

Truth7t7

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The "thousand years" of Revelation 20 is about Christ's future 'MILLENNIAL' Kingdom reign with His faithful elect. It is pointed to in many Old Testament and New Testament Scriptures.
Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
 

WPM

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The "thousand years" of Revelation 20 is about Christ's future 'MILLENNIAL' Kingdom reign with His faithful elect. It is pointed to in many Old Testament and New Testament Scriptures.

Where are these?
 

Davy

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I don't waste my time with outside Premil links that are often as ignorant and prejudice on the subject as those challenging the thesis here. They simply repeat what they have been taught. Few take the time to research this in real depth.

You advocate a zero corroborative theory. Your mistaken opinion of Revelation 20 enjoys no biblical support elsewhere.

And I don't waste my time with those who push PROPAGANDA against God's Word and real Church history.
 

Truth7t7

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And I don't waste my time with those who push PROPAGANDA against God's Word and real Church history.
You make claims, then take your ball and bat and ride away from the baseball field?

Come on Davy, we're waiting for you to present a Millennial Kingdom from scripture, because it sure isn't found in Revelation 20:1-6

Waiting, the suspense is killing me!
 
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WPM

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And I don't waste my time with those who push PROPAGANDA against God's Word and real Church history.

How sad!

It is truth that you are fighting against. Why not admit it?
 
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WPM

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Your make claims, then take your ball and bat and ride away from the baseball field?

Come on Davy, we're waiting for you to present a Millennial Kingdom from scripture, because it sure isn't found in Revelation 20:1-6

Waiting, the suspense is killing me!

Don't hold your breath. He has nothing! Let him pout!
 
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Randy Kluth

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Not so. I have mentioned some of the recent scholarly objective works that have rocked the academic world with their finding. Their writings wetted my appetite to study the historic facts. My issue was with debating with random websites. I do not do that with theology or history, as a general habit.

My main issue is that you always present yourself as the main opponent on these forums to challenge these facts yet you have not taking the time to do any research. You have admitted that. That is why I rejects your objections.

I've never said I don't do any research. Why would I say such a thing? I think you're trying to mislead others into thinking you alone do research, and all who oppose you don't do research?

I try to be honest and not claim I'm a scholar of the highest caliber. I'm just doing due diligence based on my own abilities and sense of what's right and wrong, and what will be of greatest service to the Church at large.

You keep wanting to make this personal, and that's a distraction. Please focus on the points I'm making, rather than divert to personal attacks. If I get personal with you, it's only because you seem rabid in your attack on PreMill, and I don't think that's very "Christian."

When did Jesus ever teach the restoration of Israel in the NT?

Acts 1.6-7 indicated, by Jesus' answer, that the priority, before Israel's restoration, is to reach the world with the Gospel. He in effect agreed with the underlying premise of the question, that Israel will, in fact, be restored. It's just a matter of what must take place first.

Porphyry/Porphyrius

Porphyrius is another heretic who promoted the Premillennial doctrine.

These kinds of arguments are worthless, in my thinking. It's like coming up with a list of all the heretics who ever lived that at one time claimed to be "Christian." Does compiling such a list delegitimize Christianity? Does the embrace by these heretics of any true Christian doctrine cast a dark shadow on any of these true Christian doctrines? No.

So I'm not interested in your list of Premill heretics, since it proves nothing. I've told you this before, but you just ignore it because it's part of your "copy and paste" strategy of attacking Premill by filibuster. Get rid of your notes, and begin afresh. Consult the Holy Spirit, and not your notes. Nobody wants to read long lists of old notes--they want to be heard for what they're saying now!

By the time of Jerome, the Church had begun to move decidedly against Premill, and the concern was that Premill not only believed in the restoration of Israel, but that in doing so, it would confirm a restoration of Law and carnal pleasures. This was a time when asceticism was on the rise, which in my view is as bad as legalism.

I don't know why you persist in arguing against a reestablishment of Jewish Law as a Premill tenet? That may have been part of it, and part of heretical views, but Premill is not contingent upon that, either then or now. I've told you this repeatedly, but you insist on copying and pasting, because your notes are critical to your easy responses.

So you say I don't answer your points. Your points completely ignore the fact Jewish Law is not part of Premill by necessity. The fact you keep repeating that argument indicates to me you're probably just copying and pasting.
 

Randy Kluth

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Where does Isaiah 11.6 mention a millennium never mind "millennial luxury"?

It indicates, traditionally, the fulfillment of the "Jewish Hope," which is how John casts the Millennium in Rev 20. It is the time of rule over the world by followers of God and of His Christ.
 

Truth7t7

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I've never said I don't do any research. Why would I say such a thing? I think you're trying to mislead others into thinking you alone do research, and all who oppose you don't do research?

I try to be honest and not claim I'm a scholar of the highest caliber. I'm just doing due diligence based on my own abilities and sense of what's right and wrong, and what will be of greatest service to the Church at large.

You keep wanting to make this personal, and that's a distraction. Please focus on the points I'm making, rather than divert to personal attacks. If I get personal with you, it's only because you seem rabid in your attack on PreMill, and I don't think that's very "Christian."



Acts 1.6-7 indicated, by Jesus' answer, that the priority, before Israel's restoration, is to reach the world with the Gospel. He in effect agreed with the underlying premise of the question, that Israel will, in fact, be restored. It's just a matter of what must take place first.



These kinds of arguments are worthless, in my thinking. It's like coming up with a list of all the heretics who ever lived that at one time claimed to be "Christian." Does compiling such a list delegitimize Christianity? Does the embrace by these heretics of any true Christian doctrine cast a dark shadow on any of these true Christian doctrines? No.

So I'm not interested in your list of Premill heretics, since it proves nothing. I've told you this before, but you just ignore it because it's part of your "copy and paste" strategy of attacking Premill by filibuster. Get rid of your notes, and begin afresh. Consult the Holy Spirit, and not your notes. Nobody wants to read long lists of old notes--they want to be heard for what they're saying now!

By the time of Jerome, the Church had begun to move decidedly against Premill, and the concern was that Premill not only believed in the restoration of Israel, but that in doing so, it would confirm a restoration of Law and carnal pleasures. This was a time when asceticism was on the rise, which in my view is as bad as legalism.

I don't know why you persist in arguing against a reestablishment of Jewish Law as a Premill tenet? That may have been part of it, and part of heretical views, but Premill is not contingent upon that, either then or now. I've told you this repeatedly, but you insist on copying and pasting, because your notes are critical to your easy responses.

So you say I don't answer your points. Your points completely ignore the fact Jewish Law is not part of Premill by necessity. The fact you keep repeating that argument indicates to me you're probably just copying and pasting.
Israel as a Nation isn't going to be restored as you claim, you can beat your drum and scream from the roof tops, your claim isn't found in scripture, it's nothing more than "Zionism" on full display

God has no respect for person, let alone a whole nation. It's the shed blood upon Calvary "period" and the entire earthly Nation of Israel isn't going to find this salvation as suggested
 

Truth7t7

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It indicates, traditionally, the fulfillment of the "Jewish Hope," which is how John casts the Millennium in Rev 20. It is the time of rule over the world by followers of God and of His Christ.
Your Jewish Hope = "Zionism"

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived


Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
 
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Randy Kluth

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Apollinarius of Laodicea

You can quote the early Amill attack on Premill all day long, and you're just doing the very thing I said you were doing. You're ignoring what I said, and copying and pasting.

I will repeat for the sake of those who don't want to indulge in your long, non-applicable posts and quotes. The Amill argument vs. Premill was that Premill, like the heretic Cerinthus, painted a luxurious, materialistic view of a Millennial paradise, and saw an illegitimate restoration of Jewish Law. That was an illegitimate association since *Premills of the orthodox variety completely rejected Cerinthus as a heretic!*

I've told you this, but you continue to copy and paste your years' old strategy of ignoring those who disagree and claiming to be a faithful "researcher." ;) Copy the old arguments forever for all I care. I hope others see through your methods, as I do.

If ever you care to be truly down to earth as brothers, I do have an email address. Thanks.

I have no interest in impeding brothers who minister God's word, whether I agree with everything they teach or not. God is more interested in edification than in perfection. And I do recognize that even though I disagree with Amill many of your concerns are of great spiritual benefit regardless.
 

Randy Kluth

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Whilst the views expressed by these early heretical Premillennialists is all widely-accepted standard Premillennialist beliefs today, none of the early Chiliasts taught these.

That's not true, and I already explained why in detail. So you simply don't read my replies and objections, or you ignore them. This is true because you don't address the points. You just repeat the same distortions over and over, and double down on the same old false arguments.

Once again, for the sake of those who do pay attention, it is *not true* that Premills, old and new, hold to diametrically-different beliefs. That's called "divide and conquer." Some early Premill Fathers indicated that they had tended towards belief in the restoration of Israel. They simply gave up hope due to the recalcitrance of the Jewish People.

In the late stages of our present age we do see something different, which accounts for the renewed interest, by Premills, in the restoration of Israel. There has been the Zionist movement, and the rebirth of the State of Israel. This difference in Premill thought is not, therefore, relevant. It is just a practical outworking of the original belief. Not only did the early Premills tend to give up on Israel, but Amill, I think, evolved for this very same reason. So why would Premill pursue a restoration of Jewish Law?

Dispensationalists today do embrace the idea of a restoration of Jewish Law, but not for theological reasons. Most of them are quite "Reformed" in their theology of Salvation by Grace. They engage in a kind of Jewish ethno-centrism due to a misunderstanding, I believe, of interpreting words in the Prophets that *sound* like this. At that time, Israel was the only nation of God, and obviously, promises made at that time would be focused largely only on Israel. And language of the Law would be used primarily in a time when the Law was still in effect. It doesn't mean that the Law would continue, as such, forever, and fail to be fulfilled in the Kingdom Age.

But Dispensationalism isn't representative of all Premill either! And you just ignore this, again and again. And so your arguments are not only failing to respond to my points, but you are just a broken record claiming to "own the narrative." But you don't. Premill extends far beyond Dispensationalism and its focus on "Israel." I don't expect any changes in your Method of Operation. You seem quite hard-hearted, in this regard.
 

WPM

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I've never said I don't do any research. Why would I say such a thing? I think you're trying to mislead others into thinking you alone do research, and all who oppose you don't do research?

I try to be honest and not claim I'm a scholar of the highest caliber. I'm just doing due diligence based on my own abilities and sense of what's right and wrong, and what will be of greatest service to the Church at large.

You keep wanting to make this personal, and that's a distraction. Please focus on the points I'm making, rather than divert to personal attacks. If I get personal with you, it's only because you seem rabid in your attack on PreMill, and I don't think that's very "Christian."

You have nothing of a historic value to bring to the table. The reader can follow our conversation and see who has the historic facts and who is ranting. You avoid simple questions because you have nothing.

Acts 1.6-7 indicated, by Jesus' answer, that the priority, before Israel's restoration, is to reach the world with the Gospel. He in effect agreed with the underlying premise of the question, that Israel will, in fact, be restored. It's just a matter of what must take place first.

It does not teach that at all.

The two verses that go before Acts 1:6 (relating to the disciples’ question) support the idea of a spiritual kingdom. The two verses that follow Acts 1:6 (relating to the disciples’ question) show the Lord giving a spiritual response to their question.

Before the question came Christ was exhorting the disciples on the need for patience as they awaited the empowerment of the Holy Ghost to take the Gospel out to “the whosoever.” Everything about the context is spiritual. The Lord was stating “that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence (Acts 1:4-5).

Surely an unbiased look at these introductory comments would give us insight into what the Lord was teaching and what actually provoked the question that followed it. Undoubtedly the Lord was giving spiritual instruction about a spiritual kingdom that would shortly come with great power and fire? This is not territorial language.

What is “the Promise of the Father” here? Is it a material physical kingdom or is it a spiritual heavenly kingdom? Is it a millennial kingdom similar to this evil age, filled with death and rebellion, or was He speaking of the power of the Holy Ghost that would fall upon the disciples to empower them to bring the good news of Christ to all nations – starting in Jerusalem?

Evidently, Christ was referring to the day of Pentecost where the Church received its Holy Ghost baptism of fire. The whole discourse here is spiritual and revolved around the development of this spiritual kingdom subsequent to Christ’s ascension. Jesus confirms this again in Luke 24:46-49: “Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things. And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power (or dunamis) from on high.”

The promise of the Father was the baptism of the Holy Ghost, which was a power from on high that endued them for service.

Jesus had previously said to the disciples in Mark 9:1: “Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power (or dunamis).

Christ was speaking of Pentecost. He said the disciples would not die until they had “seen the kingdom come with power” – referring here the Church’s baptism of fire to win a lost world. It didn’t mean they would die when that happened.

The disciples then interjected with a question:Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?”

Premillennialists attribute much extravagant, extensive and grandiose detail to this simple question. They build a whole school of thought pertaining to a supposed period after the second coming out of this basic inquiry. They call it a millennial age and make it a Jewish-orientated kingdom. Nevertheless, and significantly, New Testament Scripture knows nothing of such an old-covenant-type Jewish age. That has been reduced to the history books.

What Premillennialists fail to see is: there is no mention of a future period after the second coming in the question, neither is there any intimation of that. There is not even any mention of the second coming, never mind a belief in a thousand-year reign of Christ on a still corrupt earth! No one could derive such a doctrine from this straightforward question. It would have to be taught elsewhere for it to enjoy veracity.

The most that we could take from this is that they may indeed have anticipated the introduction of a parochial, territorial and old-covenant-type physical kingdom. But that is far from a foregone conclusion. We can only, at best, speculate on that. Even if that was their assumption, that in no way proves that it was a legitimate hope. The disciples were often misguided in their expectations and narrow-minded in their tribal aspirations. They frequently saw no further than the borders of Israel. We see that played in the book of Acts, with their reluctance to advance the Gospel to the Gentiles.

Jesus reply to the disciples is telling. He responded: “It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power (or dunamis), after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth (Acts 1:7-8)

Christ did in no way here ignore or dismiss the disciples’ query about natural Israel, as some would have us believe, rather the contrary, He directly addressed it in His response. In doing so, He reiterated His earlier teaching on the impending spiritual empowerment that would come upon the kingdom, just prior to the disciples’ interjection; only now He geographically confirmed that the spread of that message would embrace the actual nation of Israel (the locations of “Jerusalem,” “Judaea” and “Samaria” being identified). Nonetheless, in His response, He went further, widening out the disciples limited vision, which was still very localised, to encompass “the uttermost part of the earth.”

Christ’s response was that His kingdom was spiritual and not territorial. The focus was not going to be limited to Israel, but would expand to all nations. The disciples would thus, after a short season of tarrying in Jerusalem and an indispensable empowerment from on high, be living “witnesses” of the kingdom of God not only in their own natural land as they had wondered but throughout all the world. This is indeed what happened! This indeed is what is happening right now. This is definitely not talking about some imaginary age sandwiched in-between the second coming of Christ and the new heavens and new earth.

These kinds of arguments are worthless, in my thinking. It's like coming up with a list of all the heretics who ever lived that at one time claimed to be "Christian." Does compiling such a list delegitimize Christianity? Does the embrace by these heretics of any true Christian doctrine cast a dark shadow on any of these true Christian doctrines? No.

So I'm not interested in your list of Premill heretics, since it proves nothing. I've told you this before, but you just ignore it because it's part of your "copy and paste" strategy of attacking Premill by filibuster. Get rid of your notes, and begin afresh. Consult the Holy Spirit, and not your notes. Nobody wants to read long lists of old notes--they want to be heard for what they're saying now!

By the time of Jerome, the Church had begun to move decidedly against Premill, and the concern was that Premill not only believed in the restoration of Israel, but that in doing so, it would confirm a restoration of Law and carnal pleasures. This was a time when asceticism was on the rise, which in my view is as bad as legalism.

I don't know why you persist in arguing against a reestablishment of Jewish Law as a Premill tenet? That may have been part of it, and part of heretical views, but Premill is not contingent upon that, either then or now. I've told you this repeatedly, but you insist on copying and pasting, because your notes are critical to your easy responses.

So you say I don't answer your points. Your points completely ignore the fact Jewish Law is not part of Premill by necessity. The fact you keep repeating that argument indicates to me you're probably just copying and pasting.

Again, all you have is your opinions. If you would take the time to study this subject you would quickly discover that this is indeed the source of modern-day Premil and what is presented is water-tight.
 
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WPM

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That's not true, and I already explained why in detail. So you simply don't read my replies and objections, or you ignore them. This is true because you don't address the points. You just repeat the same distortions over and over, and double down on the same old false arguments.

Once again, for the sake of those who do pay attention, it is *not true* that Premills, old and new, hold to diametrically-different beliefs. That's called "divide and conquer." Some early Premill Fathers indicated that they had tended towards belief in the restoration of Israel. They simply gave up hope due to the recalcitrance of the Jewish People.

In the late stages of our present age we do see something different, which accounts for the renewed interest, by Premills, in the restoration of Israel. There has been the Zionist movement, and the rebirth of the State of Israel. This difference in Premill thought is not, therefore, relevant. It is just a practical outworking of the original belief. Not only did the early Premills tend to give up on Israel, but Amill, I think, evolved for this very same reason. So why would Premill pursue a restoration of Jewish Law?

Dispensationalists today do embrace the idea of a restoration of Jewish Law, but not for theological reasons. Most of them are quite "Reformed" in their theology of Salvation by Grace. They engage in a kind of Jewish ethno-centrism due to a misunderstanding, I believe, of interpreting words in the Prophets that *sound* like this. At that time, Israel was the only nation of God, and obviously, promises made at that time would be focused largely only on Israel. And language of the Law would be used primarily in a time when the Law was still in effect. It doesn't mean that the Law would continue, as such, forever, and fail to be fulfilled in the Kingdom Age.

But Dispensationalism isn't representative of all Premill either! And you just ignore this, again and again. And so your arguments are not only failing to respond to my points, but you are just a broken record claiming to "own the narrative." But you don't. Premill extends far beyond Dispensationalism and its focus on "Israel." I don't expect any changes in your Method of Operation. You seem quite hard-hearted, in this regard.

Your rebuttals contain nothing apart from your own opinions. You have nothing of historic merit to bring to the table because you refuse to take the time to research this subject. The reader will see how bereft you are of a factual rebuttal. Until you take the time to study this i will just take your dismissals as a frustrated rant.

This is exactly what you did on the other boards. You just tried to filibuster the thread.
 

WPM

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It indicates, traditionally, the fulfillment of the "Jewish Hope," which is how John casts the Millennium in Rev 20. It is the time of rule over the world by followers of God and of His Christ.

Again, you have nothing.
 

Randy Kluth

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Your rebuttals contain nothing apart from your own opinions. You have nothing of historic merit to bring to the table because you refuse to take the time to research this subject. The reader will see how bereft you are of a factual rebuttal. Until you take the time to study this i will just take your dismissals as a frustrated rant.

This is exactly what you did on the other boards. You just tried to filibuster the thread.

Try to broaden your outlook.
 
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